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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: GailS on Monday 07 December 09 22:46 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone,
My Great Granfather married twice, and I am looking for information on his first wife and children.
Albert Charles WHITFORD married Maggie Mary FLEMING in NZ in 1887.
Three children
1887 Madge Fleming died 1888 age 5 mnths
1888 Charles Fleming, died 1889 age 5 mnths, buried in Christchurch.
1891 Mabel May.
Unsure of when Maggie and Albert parted company, tho I think it would have been around the turn of the century as he gets together with his second wife around this time and has further children, BUT Albert and Maggie dont get divorced till 1925 which is ther date when all the second bunch of kids are registered to.
Can anyone tell me where Madge Fleming is buried?
And can anyone tell me what happened to Mabel May? There is no marriage or death (under the name WHITFORD) on the NZ BDM.
I do know she stayed living with her Mother and was attending Mt Cook Girls Wellington school in 1904. What happened to Mabel??????
Many thanks in advance for helping me with this jig saw that has half the pieces missing :D
Gail.
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Hi Gail
I just happen to have the baptism records for these WHITFORD children (sent to me some time ago by a very kind lady in Christchurch). :) I'll post them here shortly.
In the meantime, I'm pretty sure I've found "Mabel May".
There was a birth amongst those (online) for WHITFORD which showed the following :
[Search made on - BIRTHS - surname "WHITFORD"]
1958 - BENNETT - John Joseph
Mother - Mabel May Father - N/R
[ Because that birth is showing on the Historical index, it means John Joseph was born prior to (today's date) 1909.]
AND ... I would be pretty confident in saying this is Mabel's death.
1962 / 32357 - BENNETT - Mabel May - 72 years (bc 1890)
Lu
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Death
1972 / 26225 - BENNETT - John Joseph - d.o.b. 25 November 1909
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There is a burial in Reefton for
Maggie Mary Whitford 9/12/1941 aged 76 yrs.
Also in the same plot, Kearns and Solomon.
http://public.bullerdc.govt.nz/cgi-bin/mksform?form=cemetery/cep
cheers
Annie
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Cremation records - Karori Cemetery, Wellington
BENNETT - Mabel May - died 13 February 1962
BENNETT - John Joseph - died 1 May 1972 - 61 years (sic) ?
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Hi Lucy2 and aniph,
wow, thank you for your info, it opens a whole heap of new avenues, though I am very curious as to why Maggie is buried with a heap of other people, and her relationship to them.
Thank you once again,
Kind regards,
Gail.
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I am very curious as to why Maggie is buried with a heap of other people, and her relationship to them.
Maybe they're not related ... possibly a "pauper's" grave ? :D
Interesting ... there's an Australian-born, Richard WHITFORD d. 1917 on that Buller database also ? [It was the Ocker line of WHITFORD's that I am following ... it's quite an unusual name in NZ.]
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Baptism Records - WHITFORD
Charles Fleming WHITFORD
Born - 9 October 1888
Baptised - 27 March 1889
At the Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament, Christchurch, NZ
(Ref: CBS2-2196A)
Parents: Charles WHITFORD / Maggie FLEMING
Sponsor : Mag. FLEMING
Sub conditione in articulo mortis
See also CBS 2-2202 *
Sponsor: Julian WHITE
Minister : A. H. AUBREY, SM
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[* This may refer to the burial record - unfortunately I don't have the transcription of that.]
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Baptism Record - WHITFORD
Margaret* WHITFORD (* "Madge')
Born - 29 July 1887
Baptised - 19 September 1887 (* Ref: RCBP2 - 360)
Parents: Charles WHITFORD / Margaret (nee FLEMING)
Sponsor: Lizzie SULLIVAN
Father of child, Protestant.
Minister : M C KICKHAM ?
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[* Not sure what the Ref: RCBP stands for ? On the index cards at Christchurch Library, all churches have been allocated a code. ]
Edit: On second thoughts, it may stand for Roman Catholic, Banks Peninsula? Will check further.
EDIT: Update posted at Reply # 16 :
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Baptism record - WHITFORD
Mabel Mary (sic) WHITFORD
Born - 22 March 1891
Baptised - 29 April 1891
At the Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament, Christchurch.
(Ref: CBS2-24769)
Parents: Albert Charles WHITFORD
Maggie (Margaret) (nee FLEMING)
Residence: Amberley
Sponsors to Baptism: Patrick Joseph ARCHER and Maggie Angela HICKEY
Minister : A. AUBREY, SM
----- / / -----
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Will just re-check on what other WHITFORD info I have ... don't think I have their marriage ? May have the baptism though for Albert Charles WHITFORD and a sibling ??
Lu
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Hi Lu,
Here I am thinking I would be lucky if I got 1 post :D And you come up with a mine of information. :) :) :)
I have to say I know nothing about paupers graves, so you may well be right concerning Maggies grave.
Thank you for all your hard work.
Kind regards,
Gail.
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Hi Gail
Hmmm ... "pauper" (horrid word) ... but not sure what else it might be called ? I mean a grave which might have been paid for by a charitable institution if the deceased was an impoverished person and family was unable to meet the cost of burial. ;)
Always worth though, following up on those who are buried in same plot - there could still be a family link ?
Same thing with following up on baptism sponsors - often they're family members. :)
Lu
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Hi Lu,
Can you please tell me about baptism sponsors? Its a term I have never heard before.
In your first post you said you had WHITFORD baptism records, can I be cheeky and ask if you have any records for the second lot of WHITFORD children born?
Charlie, Stanley, Alice, Mary and Eva.
I know nothing really about this family, and I feel I should considering that Alice is my Granny. And anyone that might have information (first hand) has probably died by now, my Mum never spoke of her Mothers family, I find it completly frustrating as she often spoke of her Fathers family.
Family lore said that Albert Charles father was a baker also and that he helped bake the cake for Queen Victorias coronation, I have no idea if this is true or not, I have no idea who Albert's parents are.
Gail.
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Hi Gail
Will be with you shortly ... just digging up some further info which may assist. :) [I'm terribly disorganised at present .. doh !]
Lu
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Can you please tell me about baptism sponsors? Its a term I have never heard before.
Baptism "sponsors" are essentially what we term today, "godparents".
Try a "Google" search ... which will give you a better explanation than I can offer here. :D
Lu
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Baptism Record - WHITFORD
Margaret* WHITFORD (* "Madge')
Born - 29 July 1887
Baptised - 19 September 1887 (* Ref: RCBP2 - 360)
Parents: Charles WHITFORD / Margaret (nee FLEMING)
Hi Gail
Just an update :
Burial Place of Madge WHITFORD - died 1888
I've just checked another (family) baptism record I have, and the code RCBP refers to "Roman Catholic (Church) Banks Peninsula" :
As a burial record hasn't been found elsewhere, I'd say it's very likely that Madge was buried at a cemetery on Banks Peninsula ... or possibly at the RC (or other) cemetery at Lyttelton.
BP and Lyttelton cemeteries are not online but you can make an enquiry about burials via a link at the Christchurch Library website. (If it was a Catholic cemetery, then Catholic Archives may have a record).
Seems Madge died late December 1887 (or early in 1888) ?
Lu
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In your first post you said you had WHITFORD baptism records, can I be cheeky and ask if you have any records for the second lot of WHITFORD children born?
Charlie, Stanley, Alice, Mary and Eva.
Hi Gail
Unfortunately the only baptism records I have, are the ones I've given you. (I understand too, that the WHITFORD records I received (ex. ChCh Library) are the sum total of what was available from the index cards there.)
* Do you know the birthplaces of these children from the second family ?
Lu
PS - Have found lots more WHITFORD info for you ... sorting through it now and hope to post it here, later this evening.
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Hi Gail
Here goes ... ;)
Baptism Record
Albert Charles WHITFORD
Born - 2 November 1869
Baptised - 30 January 1870
At - Holy Trinity Church (Anglican), Lyttelton
Parents : Edward (occupation: miner) and Ann *
Residence: Lyttelton
Sponsors - William TOMKIN and Maria TOMKIN
Minister - R.R. BRADLEY
* His mother must have been known as "Ann", though as you'll see with other records, she was actually "Elizabeth Ann".
[You probably won't need to get a copy of his birth printout as this baptism record carries all the information that is contained in an 1869 birth record. ]
Lu
more to come >>
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I'll add the records for his siblings also.
Baptism
John Thomas WHITFORD
Born - 10 March 1867
Baptised - 26 May 1867
At - Holy Trinity Church, Lyttelton
Parents: Edward WHITFORD (miner) and Elizabeth Ann
Residence: Lyttelton
Sponsors: Edward and Elizabeth Ann WHITFORD and Jane RODGERS
Minister - Francis KNOWLES
[Ref: HTL2-1198]
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Marriage [Ref: WCCL-WBT3-24]
John Thomas WHITFORD to Annie THOMPSON
On - 19 March 1889 at the house of John Blair THOMPSON (Lyttelton ?]
Groom: Bachelor - 22 years - born Lyttelton
Occupation - Bootmaker
Parents - Edward WHITFORD (labourer) and Elizabeth Ann (nee PIPER)
Bride: Spinster - 20 years- born Rangiora (no occ. shown)
Parents - John Blair THOMPSON (shipwright) and Ann (nee WATSON)
Residence: Groom (usual) Christchurch / Bride - Lyttelton
Present residence : (for both) - Lytteton
Witnesses: Charles WHITFORD (baker *)
Mary Emma WHITFORD and Walter THOMPSON (clerk) Lyttelton :
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[* Witness - Charles WHITFORD (baker) ... I wonder if this might actually be "Alfred Charles" ?? ]
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Baptism
Mary Emma WHITFORD
Born - 29 October 1871
Baptised - 31 December 1871
At - Holy Trinity Church, Lyttelton
Parents: Edward (occupation - miner) and Ann WHITFORD
Residence - Lyttelton
Sponsors: Mary Elizabeth JEFFREY and the parents
Minister : Francis KNOWLES
[Ref: HTL2-1552 ]
[Mary Emma WHITFORD married John Robert Thompson HENDERSON - 1896 : Children : 1896 - Barbara May / 1900 - Daisy Annie / 1902 - Mary Eva / 1908 - Robert Harold HENDERSON]
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The parents of Albert Charles WHITFORD were born in, and married in, England.
FREE BMD - UK
BIRTHS - DEC - 1841
WHITFORD - Edward Edwards - reg'd. at Truro (Cornwall)
PIPER - Elizabeth Ann ... was born c. 1837 (birth doesn't appear on FREE BMD - records start at Sept. 1837)
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FREE BMD - UK
MARRIAGES - JUN - 1862
WHITFORD - Edward
PIPER - Elizabeth Ann
Registered at Liskeard (Cornwall)
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There was also a son born to this couple in England :
BIRTHS - SEPT - 1863
WHITFORD - Edward Charles - reg'd. Liskeard (Cornwall)
[He appears as "WHITFORD - Edward C.- infant" on passenger list to NZ. ]
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Bonus ;)
The Marriage record for Edward WHITFORD and Elizabeth Ann PIPER, can be viewed at > >
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/
St. Cleer Parish ... on 23 June 1862
It gives names of their fathers ... but alas, not the names of the mothers.
However, knowing the father's names will assist with finding UK census records.
At above website you can also search for baptisms etc. I had a quick look but couldn't see either Elizabeth or Edward (snr. or jnr).
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Edward, Elizabeth Ann and baby Edward Charles, are shown on the following passenger list :
"TIPTREE"
Departed London - 20 October 1863
Arrived at Lyttelton - 20 January 1864
Government Immigrants
WHITFORD
-- Edward - 22 years - Cornwall - Labourer
-- Elizabeth A. - 25 years
-- Edward C. - infant
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NZ Deaths
1900 - WHITFORD - Edward Edwards - 58 years
1920 - WHITFORD - Elizabeth Ann - 83 years (bc 1837)
Edward Charles (son) appears to have died when a small child ... oddly, there are two death listings (1868 and 1869) ... neither has the age at death, recorded ?
1868 and 1869 - WHITFORD - Edward Charles - age N/R
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Births on online Index :
Hmm ... can only see "1869 for Albert Charles WHITFORD" ??
[Siblings "John Thomas" and "Mary Emma" don't seem to be there (maybe surname is misspelt ?]
Also ... there is an "Elizabeth Ann WHITFORD - born 1865"
- still checking on her (found some further info which suggests she may not belong to this particular family ?
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AND ... an interesting snippet at PapersPast, for you. ;)
"Star" - 10 May 1899 - "LYTTELTON"
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/
That's about it for WHITFORD information ... (phew !)
Lu
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Goodmorning Lu,
That is the best Christmas present ever!!!
I'm sitting here howling :) Wow it is amazing how WRONG family lore can be lol.
I had looked previous at the shipping records and wondered about Edward and Ann, and well low and behold!
And imagine being sued by your own father!
Wow I am still gobsmacked, I cant say thank you enough.
I will be off to the library to look at census records just as soon as I get the kids out the door. And will be ringing my sister with the latest info.
Thank you once again,
Warm regards,
Gail.
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Hope this might be of some use to you.
I have family tree for Whitford and Piper, Cornwall going back to1780s if you are interested
Waiwera
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Hi Waiwera,
Merry Christmas.
I would love any information you are willing to share, this is part of my family I know very little about and I havn't had much luck looking at the census records either. :D
Will PM you.
Regards, Gail.