RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: cheshiremog on Thursday 03 December 09 00:53 GMT (UK)
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
Can I prevail upon your vast knowledge of things military in the hope one or more of you can provide some detail and more about a certain Sergeant Major of the 23rd Regiment of Foot.
His name is Sergeant Major Joseph Aston. I have traced back the family tree of my good friend of Chaddesden, Derbyshire and it transpires that the said Joseph is his x 3 Great Grand Father.
1851 census shows him at Plymouth barracks in Devon, originating from Risley, Derbyshire, aged 32.
I have all the census details, so no need to waste your valuable time looking there. What is most interesting is we have his son Henry's birth certificate and this shows that Joseph was the 'Paymaster' of the 23rd Regiment. Joseph was staying at the Courtyard Hotel, St. Paul's Cathedral, London, 1854.
Joseph's wife Anne (of Canadian birth) was shown on the 1861 census as being married, but Joseph not there. This was in Derby.
By 1871 she was a widow.
Can anyone shed any further light on the said Joseph (outside the census records) and what being a paymaster meant and what might have been Joseph's fate, given that he was a soldier who 'disappeared' from the records.
Also, why would he have such a privelege in staying at said Hotel and any Regimental History that might tie in with his movements.
We understand we can contact the Regimental historian, but we want you guys to have first shot.
Best wishes and good hunting,
Mog's Hub.
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He is not listed as Paymaster in the 1862 Army List, which would have been compiled at the end of 1861. If he was a Paymaster Sergeant as opposed to being the Paymaster he would not be listed. The battalions were in India and Malta at the time, with the Depots being in Walmer. You would have expected his family to be with him if he was overseas.
If you believe he was made an honorary officer you may find him in the London Gazette. One problem you face is that they would have destroyed his other rank's papers 20 years after his death, if he died while serving.
The only certain way is to follow his service using the muster books in Kew, starting with the one for 1854. These run from 1st of April to 31st of March, and will list both officers and ORs.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/?WT.lp=mh-33483
Ken
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He would have been in the 1st Bn 23rd Foot (Royal Welsh Fusiliers).
Lets start with some medal rolls.
From the Indian Mutiny roll:
Paymaster Joseph Aston, 1/23rd Foot - 2 clasps, Lucknow, Relief of Lucknow. Retired from the Army.
The roll was presumably compiled sometime in 1858, so that gives a rough date for his retirement.
The Crimea roll I'll check tonight. :)
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He became Quartermaster in 1854
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/21532/pages/864
...Paymaster in 1855
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/21832/pages/4865
... and retired 15 Oct 1858, which confirms the info from the medal roll
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/22191/pages/4464
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Dear Neil and KM,
This is brilliant stuff. I can't wait to pass this on.
Thanks so much, I knew the Rootschatter's wouldn't let me down.
Mogs Hub.
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Of course, now we know he left the Army in 1858 you have to go back to civilian records to look for his subsequent life and his death.
If we assume he may have joined the regiment when he was about 18 years old in c.1837, then he could have been with the regiment in the following places:
1836-41 Ireland
1841-43 Canada
1843-47 West Indies
1847-48 Nova Scotia
1848-54 England
1854-56 Crimea
1856-57 England
1857 China (briefly)
1857-retirement India
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Dear Neil,
the details of Joseph's family are as follows.
Wife Anne born Halifax, Nova Scotia circa 1824.
Josephus born Halifax, Nova Scotia circa 1847.
John born Winchester, Hants, 1850.
Emma born Isle of Wight 1854.
Harry born Middlesex, London 1856.
I think this pretty much ties in with the Regiments movements. I need to find when and where he died now.
Thank you so much for this.
Mogs Hub.
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Hi Guys,
I've just read the gazette for Joseph's retirement from the 23rd Foot in 1858 and it appears he was 'dismissed'.
Is that how it reads to you guys?
Did Joseph have his hand in the pay chest?
Ooops.
I can't find him on the 1861 census either. His wife Anne is living alone in Derby with the kids (still married). Any idea's where he might be?
Also, Joseph had a son called Edward born in Canada circa 1842/3 and he became a soldier too.
Appreciate any help with the above.
Mogs Hub
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Sgt Major Joseph Aston of the 23rd Foot was awarded the MSM - Meritorious Service Medal - with an annuity of £10 on 3rd of April 1853. From the MSM medal roll: "His MSM annuity ceased when he was commissioned as QM 17 March 1854. Appointed Paymaster 23rd Foot, 28 December 1855."
The MSM was a kind of super long service good conduct medal. The annuities came from a fund. Men could be awarded it without an annuity and have to wait for either someone to die, or for the fund to be increased.
Ken
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Dear Ken,
this is great stuff. My mate is delighted with what you've found.
We had a think about the 'dismissed' business. If he had been a bad lad, he would have been courts martialled and reduced to the ranks, presumably. That doesn't appear to be the case. Could he have been severly ill or something like that? He had just got back from Lucknow afterall!! And why would something like that be gazetted?
Its a bit of a mystery at the moment.
We are really appreciating your efforts so far. Thank you.
Best regards,
Mogs Hub.
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We had a think about the 'dismissed' business. If he had been a bad lad, he would have been courts martialled and reduced to the ranks, presumably. That doesn't appear to be the case.
Officers could not be reduced in the ranks. Only cashiered, dismissed etc. It looks as if he was not allowed to retire on half-pay. But he would have had his OR pension, based on his Sgt Major's pay. This may have given him about 3s a day. After his death his widow would have recieved a pension based upon his OR pension for up to seven years, or until she remarried, whichever happened first. If she remarried she would get a lump sum equivalent to one year's penison. At least they were the rules in 1912. I cannot imagine them being more generous in the mid 19th century.
Here is a link about the value of commissions. He would not have paid for his - http://www.colonialwargaming.co.uk/Miscellany/Army/Commissions.htm - and he may not have held it long enough to have something to sell.
Ken
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Dear Ken,
looks like Joseph was a naughty boy then? This is a real mystery. Why, after so many years service, would he do something like that I wonder? And what might he have done?
We still hold a belief he may have been very ill. I'm looking for his death to see if that might reveal anything. My prime target is a Joseph Aston who died in 1863 in London. Is it possible he was in a military Hospital?
thanks once again,
Mogs Hub.
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As an outsider to this thread, I have looked at the LG and do not feel that it necessarily means he was dismissed, but 'removed from the service' needs comment from soneone with more knowledge of the military language of the day.
If he was indeed a naughty boy, there might well be a story lurking in a newspaper archive.
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Hi Ainslie
We used to have access to the Times Online but when Northampton Library decided people outside the county could not access it, we lost our access.
Would be great if some kind person out there with access to the Times Online might take a quick look.
Mog
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Hi,
I am looking for any further information on Josh Querchy who was a sergeant in the 23 Regiment of Foot. I am hoping that this guy is Joseph Querci, born abt 1780, married to Mary in Ireland (possibly Dublin) in abt 1813, and two daughters (Theresa and Elizabeth) born in France in 1814 and 1816 respectively, followed by a son Joseph in 1820 in Ireland.
Anything would be gratefully received,
Cheers