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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 01 December 09 09:21 GMT (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt, it's a little bit complicated but something I'm sure you can get your teeth in to!!!
Good Luck and Good Hunting.
Barbara
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Looking for my great grandmother Mary (Ann) Smith
The first verifiable data for Mary is the birth of her son Charles
Charles Grouth born Guisborough North Yorkshire 13 April 1863 (from birth certificate)
Father Charles Grouth Smith
Mother Mary Smith formerly Smith
Charles baptized 10 May 1863 as Charles Groat son of Mary Smith a single woman
Second son John William Grout born Skelton North Yorkshire
Baptized 3 December 1865 son of Charles and Mary Grout
Third son George Henry Grout born Brotton North Yorkshire 4 August 1868
Birth certificate mother Mary Grout formerly Smith
Mary Smith and Charles Grout marry 23 August 1869 Belmont County Durham (from certificate)
Mary gives her age as 30 (making her birth c1839) and says she is a single woman
Mary gives her father's name as John Smith agricultural labourer
Two more children born after Mary and Charles marry (Edward and Emma)
1871 census Brotton
Mary Grout age 31 born Guisbro
With husband Charles
Sons - Joseph Smith (14), Charles Grout, John Grout, Geo Grout
1881 census Guisborough
Mary A Grout 41 born Gisbro
With husband and Grout children - no Joseph Smith
1891 census Guisborough
Mary Grout age 56 (making her birth c1832) born Guisborough
With husband, two children and a grandchild
1901 census Guisborough
Mary A Grout age 63 (making her birth c1838) born "Oggeven " or "Eggeven" near York
Lodginghouse keeper
With husband
4 February 1906 death Mary Ann Grout aged 72 years (making her birth c1834), interred Guisborough Cemetery
Charles Grout's will bequeaths all to his wife Mary Ann Grout. Mary Ann Grout makes her mark
Mary's will is made in the name of Mary Ann Grout. Mary Ann Grout makes her mark
No record on freebmd of Mary's birth
No record found on any parish registers, Guisborough, Skelton, Brotton
Mary (and Joseph age 4?) not found on 1861 census. Charles Grout whom she eventually married in 1869 was in Whitby 1861 census
1851 census there is a Mary Smith age 15 born Brotton, working in Skelton
Joseph Smith born Guisborough, assumed illegitimate son of Mary Smith, appears 1871 census
No registration for his birth
1881 census there is a Joseph Smith and family living next door to Mary and Charles Grout, his chidren have the same names as Charles and Mary. He is the same age as the 1871 census Joseph would be. Marriage certificate shows this Joseph as Joseph Wingrove Smith married to Margaret Lynn. Father Joseph Wingrove Smith, does not say father is deceased
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i'll be in and out
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Wow...............took you a while to get here Toni ;)
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and i'm stil the first
;D
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Mary born 1830ish from marriage cert an 1834ish from death cert what do the censuses say?
also wwhere does Mary say she was born on census?
age at death is what the informant belived the deceased to be and not necciasrily what age they were, who was the informant ?
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Sorry forgot to add (isn't it always the case) an Isabella and Ambrose Burnside were witnesses at the marriage.
Mary's age at census returns:
1871 31 making her birth c1840
1881 41 .. .. .. c1840
1891 56 .. .. .. c1834
1901 63 .. .. .. c1837
Place of birth 1871 to 1891 always given as Guisborough.
1901 it becomes Oggeven or Eggeven near York (neither place exists)
Informant on death certificate was E Grout, daughter-in-law who I believe to be my grandmother Eleanor (married to George Grout). Mary died 93 Westgate Guisborough, and my grandparents had a pub at number 59 Westgate, it would seem logical.
I have asked "Stroudie" another descendant of Mary to join in the discussions here. Stroudie is the g-g-grandaughter of Mary and has done a lot of research looking for her.
Margaret
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Here's one to look at please:
1861 RG9; Piece: 3655; Folio: 10; Page: 13
Guisborough - can't read address sorry
James Bradley 39 yrs Ag Labourer b Coxwold
Mary Bradley 26yrs b Ovingham (not sure that's what it says at all)
Joseph Bradley 4 yrs b Guisborough
at the moment - can't see them anywhere else :-\
heywood
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How old is Charles on the marriage cert and who were the witnesses?
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in 1841 Durham we have just 6 May Ann Smiths b. 1832 +/- 2 years
Mary Ann Smith Darlington, Durham looks to be with William as father
Mary Ann Smith Monkwearmouth, Durham with a williamson family
Mary Ann Smith Jarrow, Durham at Dean Mill Pub, with the Publican there beign MR Gray no other smiths
Mary Ann Smith Redmarshall, Durham HO107; 317; : 17; 5; 4; with James as the head of that family an ag lab (interesting)
Mary Ann Smith Auckland, Durham - cant find her :-\
Mary Ann Smith Lanchester,[sic] Durham looks to be father William
and 56 Mary Smiths (hope you were sitting down then ;) )
i think the best thing to do would be to find each of these an chek to see if they have aJames Smith with them who could possibly be their fathr remembering that relationships werent given and then find these in later census to rule them out.
many hands make light work :)
starting with the Mary Anns i have listed above
(ps when do you think she assumed the Ann part of her name? from bitrh ? or later on Charles birth cert, did she sign or make her mark persuming she was the informant)
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Isn't her father John ???
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There is a Hovingham - which maybe would fit with Mary Bradley which I can't read that well in 1861 and the 'Oggeven' etc place but as it isn't even Smith ::)
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Sorry forgot to add (isn't it always the case) an Isabella and Ambrose Burnside were witnesses at the marriage.
in case they are of relevance
Marriages Mar 1858 Newcastle Tyne 10b 44
BURNSIDE Ambrose
Miller Isabella
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Yes Mary says her father is John.
Charles was 37 when they married - this is correct, he is fairly well documented.
Witnesses Isabella and Ambrose Burnside.
The "Ann" only appears (as A) for the first time 1881 census, then occurs on 1901 (as A), wills and death certificate as Ann. Marriage certificate is just Mary.
Mary it seems was illiterate, any documentation (birth certificates, marriage certificate, wills) she makes her mark X
The Bradley family is - I think - one which Stroudie investigated, hopefully she will be able to join in soon and can recall what she found on this.
I find the Durham connection interesting - why did they go from Yorkshire to Durham to get married - then returned to Yorkshire to carry on with their lives? The marriage was by banns so presumably they were resident there three weeks prior?
Parish Church in the Parish of Belmont. Residence at time of marriage New Durham for both of them
Margaret
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I find the Durham connection interesting - why did they go from Yorkshire to Durham to get married - then returned to Yorkshire to carry on with their lives? The marriage was by banns so presumably they were resident there three weeks prior?
it was usual for the bride to be married in her home parish and to set up home in the grooms parish (so tradition states but who followed tradition ?)
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i misread John as James gettign excited by the Redmarshall one :-[
ok so in 1851 Mary Smith with father John in Durham - Guisborugh is Co Durham isn't it
Mary Grey aka Mary Smith b. circa 1834 Southshields d/o John (rope maker) & Johanna [sic] - living Westoe
Mary Johnson aka Mary Smith b. cira 1830 Bradford Yorks d/o John(coal miner) living Haswell
Mary Smith d/o John (coal miner) & Elizh b. circa 1832 Hetton, living Haswell, (they have little Jane Smith there aged just 15 days awwww )
Mary Smith d/o John(coal miner) b. circa 1833 Ryton, living Stella,
Mary Ann Smith d/o John (contractor) c. circa 1833 Greetham, lviing Hartlepool,
Mary Smith d/o John(pauper) & Eleanor b. circa 1834 Winlaton, residing do.
Mary Ann Smith d/o John(Brewer & Malster) & Esther b. abt 1834 Allendale Town, Northumberland,living Bishop Auckland, Durham
of course Mary might not have been at home in 1851 and perhaps i should go back through the 1841 census for anyone old enough to be Marys father called John this time instead of James
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My apologies all, just checked my grandfather's birth certificate August 1868 and I see Mary is calling herself Mary Ann as early as that.
Toni - Guisborough is North Yorkshire, Belmont where they married is County Durham.
Where on earth is/was New Durham? Will do a search to see any of the Marys Toni lists are living anywhere near.
Margaret
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New Durham is here as I am guessing they don't mean the one in New Hampshire US:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=new%20durham&cr=countryUK%7CcountryGB&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
so Belmont is close.
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Also Belmont was a colliery area so it was likely that Charles Grout was a miner and I was just lloking at the mining sites and came across this -
http://www.dmm2.org.uk/individ0/i08275.htm
With a wife Mary Ann it seems likely to be Charles and their son Charles.
Therefore it seems likely that they were in Belmont just working at a different colliery at the time of the wedding.
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Charles senior and son Charles were both miners in the ironstone mines. This is their headstone in Guisborough Cemetery (on the dmm site). My great grandparents Charles and Mary Ann are interred there, their son Charles, (in remembrance on the stone) died in a mine accident Eston Mines in 1890, he is interred in Eston Cemetery but has no headstone there. He was married and livng in Grangetown at the time. It is incorrect that he (the son) is interred in Guisborough Cemetery.
All four of the sons, Charles, John, George and Edward were ironstone miners at some time.
Many thanks for data from Durham Mining Museum, this is the first time I have seen this.
Charles senior later became a potato merchant!
Re Belmont and New Durham. Belmont is now a suburb of Durham City and New Durham on the A181 must have been incredibly close and probably absorbed into the spreading city at some time. - would that have been coal mining?
I have found a picture of the Parish Church of Belmont - St Mary Magdalene which dates from 1856
Hadn't thought about Charles possibly working in the Belmont area for a while. My grandfather was born August 1868 Brotton N Yks and as at the 1871 census 2 April the family were living 59 High Street Brotton. 1871 and 1881 Charles senior is an ironstone miner, 1891 1901 he was a potato merchant
Margaret
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ooo 'ello everyone.. back from me hols... ;)
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I have just been following up on Heywood's suggestion of James and Mary Bradley with a four year old Joseph in 1861.
Mary is a lot younger than James - 13 years.
Her birth place is given as either Ovingham or Bingham (the transcription says Bingham) both Yorkshire - neither of which are shown on any of my maps.
What is very interesting is that they are living next door to a William Burnside (an earthernware dealer) (would he be a hawker?) same birthplace as Mary! William age 23 and Mary 26. (Could they be brother and sister)
Bearing in mind that the witnesses to the marriage of Mary Smith and Charles Grout were Isabella and Ambrose Burnside.
My Mary very definitely had something to hide, they would have had no difficulties churchwise to marrying - they had all their pre marital children baptised - unless there was some reason Mary could not marry.
Does anyone know where Ovingham or Bingham were/are in Yorkshire?
Margaret
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http://www.ovinghamgoosefair.org.uk/
and click onabout ovingham then maps
Short answer is newcastle-upon-tyne
Spark
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Many thanks will have a look. Problem is it's Northumberland, and despite all Mary's ducking and dodging she has maintained all along she was born in Yorkshire. If Ovingham is Hovingham (allowing for the Yorkshire dialect and perhaps an out-of-town enumerator) that would place her "near York" as she (or whoever gave the stats) says in 1901.
Margaret
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I thought it looked like Bingham too :-\
However, there is a Hovingham, 9 miles from Coxwold which is where James Bradley said he was from. It's easy to say it without the 'H' :D
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The Burnside name seems to be in Yorkshire and Durham.
John Burnside, Hawker (from Hovingham) is in Durham in 1871 and 1881.
1861 RG9; Piece: 3742; Folio: 5; Page: 4
Ambrose Burnside b Guisborough with wife Isabella is in Durham. (Is this the right Ambrose?) He is a hawker and his father, I think, Edward is 'next door'. A daughter of that family is born Guisborough.
I don't want to get side tracked with this family though.
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Getting late over here now - will have to get back to this tomorrow - thanks all for help received today. Will tackle Mary again tomorrow.
Regards
Margaret
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Hello
I am also a descendant of Charles and Mary Ann. I have been collaborating with Ceeoh for some time.
I have a theory that Mary Burnside/ Bradley/ Smith/ Grout are the same person, but i can't prove it.
Facts to date: Mary (Ann) Smith - no evidence for her before registration of .birth of child with Charles. No obvious birth or baptism.
Mary Burnside bapt 12.10.1831 Guisborough, not found on 1841 census. 1851 in Old Meeting Hse Yard, Guisborough, family are tinkers, brother John was bapt at Hovingham ('Ovingham = Eggeven?). After this not found on census. No obvious marriage or death.
Mary Bradley as noted earlier 1861 census married to James, Mary born Ovingham, son Joseph age 4. 1871 Mary Bradley not found. Deaths 1861-71 Mary bradley b 1831 x2 in Stockton & Durham. Joseph Bradley not found 1871, no death found.
James Bradley- there are 2 similar people. James gives birth as Coxwold c 1822 on 1861 census. i think in 1851 he is in Grantham visitor age 28 b Gilling.
In 1871 I believe he is in Muggleswick, Durham in a lodging house, navvy, UNMARRIED, b Gillan, Yorks, In 1881 he is in Skelton, again unmarried, labourer, 59 b Gilling. I can't find him later.
The other James Bradley was born in Gilling c 1823 and is traceable through census records. His parents are Cuthbert and Ann and he is a tailor, married Jane and is found Gilling till 1871 and later in Durham and appears to have died June 1891 in Durham.
There is a registered birth for Joseph Bradley in 1857. Parents are given as married and mother signs with X. I can't find a marriage for his parents.
So questions arise - were Mary & James Bradley married? Did Mary Bradley marry Charles Grout bigamously under an assumed name?
Any thoughts welcomed!
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Just checked my information again and realised that the registered Joseph Bradley born in Guisborough in 1857 does not have parents called Mary or James, which then begs the question; who is the child living with Mary & James Bradley in 1861?
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Hi Stroudie,
I was inclining to something similar but thought it was a bit too early yet to make that presumption.
Was feeling much better until I read the last post :(
Do you have the parents of that Joseph Bradley- what are their names?
heywood
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Ceeoh and Stroudie
I notice that tinkers feature in the occupations. Is it possible that these families have "travellers" in background? It would help explain the name changes etc.
Robyn
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Re Joseph Bradley's birth registration. I think I need to obtain the certificate. Information gleaned has come from asking the registrar questions which can be answered yes or no, so I don't have parents names.
Regarding tinkers / travellers. The Burnsides appear to be a large family whose occupations are given as tinker, hawker, earthenware dealer etc. They are found in North Yorks and Durham, but it's not obvious from records that they are any more mobile than many other people of the time.
I don't know much about traveller history and haven't found anything to read on the subject. Would name changes be common? I know Smith is a common traveller name, but then it's a common name anyway!
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Hi, back again!
Hello Stroudie, good to hear from you.
Looked this up last night :
1861 census James Bradley gives his birth place as Coxon. Sorry this should be Coxwold! On familysearch there is a James Bradley baptised Coxwold 15 March 1822 son of William and Elizabeth. Age and place fit with 1861 census.
June quarter 1855 a birth was registered for a Joseph Bradley Guisborough. Is this the son of James and Mary? I will check if he is on teesvalley index.
Have not found a marriage for James and Mary or a death for James
Note for Ammonite : The DMM is closed until Easter next year, no contact e mail addy. I would like to ask them to put the data right with regard to Charles (junior)
Margaret
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Hi
Quick reply, as about to go out. I too have checked the TVI and note both Joseph Bradleys. I have phoned the registratr and agreed to buy a certificate and I have the details for both.
Joseph Bradley b 1857 reg Guisborough was acually born in Coatham (Redcar, some distance from Guisbro). He is son of John and Frances and John is a blacksmith.
Joseph Bradley b 1855 Guisborough, cert is exactly the same except dob, so this is an earlier child that died.
There are no other registrations of a Joseph Bradley in Guisbro for that period.
So...it would appear that Joseph Bradley apparent son of Mary & James is either unregistered or not under that name.
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Note for Ammonite : The DMM is closed until Easter next year, no contact e mail addy. I would like to ask them to put the data right with regard to Charles (junior)
I'm glad it wasn't a website that you had come across before, even if the info was wrong. It's a shame though it was wrong!!!! ;D Now all you have to do is remember at Easter to contact them, maybe in the mean time they will get more information.
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Hi
Quick reply, as about to go out. I too have checked the TVI and note both Joseph Bradleys. I have phoned the registratr and agreed to buy a certificate and I have the details for both.
Joseph Bradley b 1857 reg Guisborough was acually born in Coatham (Redcar, some distance from Guisbro). He is son of John and Frances and John is a blacksmith.
Joseph Bradley b 1855 Guisborough, cert is exactly the same except dob, so this is an earlier child that died.
There are no other registrations of a Joseph Bradley in Guisbro for that period.
So...it would appear that Joseph Bradley apparent son of Mary & James is either unregistered or not under that name.
Oh dearie me ::)
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I will check the FindMyPast 1841 census index tomorrow for a John Smith in Yorkshire, FindMyPast off line tonight for maintenance, 1901online had at least one in Guisborough, age about 43 but I don't have vouchers to check the image.
If Mary is Burnside/Bradley where did she get the Smith from and a father John Smith.
If Mary had an affair with Charles Grout after the 1861 census - culminating in the birth of a son Charles in May 1863 - she was certainly very confused about names giving the father as Charles Grouth Smith on registration and herself as Mary Smith formerly Smith. But when she had him baptised a few days later the parish register records him as Charles Groat son of Mary Smith a single woman.
Perhaps she was prepared to "stretch the truth" to the authorities, but lying to the church was another matter all together!
Even at her marriage she maintains she is a single woman Mary Smith.
The first Joseph Bradley birth registered June quarter 1855 Guisborough, is probably the Joseph Bradley who died Sept quarter 1856 registered Guisborough
Margaret
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There's lots to think about here and no ready answers ::)
I wondered about Joseph Wingrove Smith- where does Wingrove come from :-\
I wonder if Smith is another little diversion.
Looking for Joseph Wingrove -Ancestry has an 1860 criminal record entry with imprisonment but I can't access it- wrong membership. :( It is in North Riding.
1851 HO107; Piece: 2345; Folio: 308; Page: 13
Joseph Wingrove (looks as though it could be Wingrow) 36 yrs windower
living in Maltby with parents in law Greensmiths.
This is Rotherham area though so doesn't look right.
1841 he is in Matlby- Wingrow :(
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It's a while since we looked at Joseph Wingrove Smith - I seem to recall Stroudie also looked at his one some time ago and could find no references to the Wingrove part - perhaps she will recall when next she is on line.
It all looks so straight forward doesn't it when one sees all the data from 1863 onwards - what could be easier than just checking back 1861, 1851, 1841, for Mary Smith ::) but it's as if she just appeared out of thin air.
I know the Burnside / Bradley route looks very promising. I mentioned previously Mary has doggedly stuck to the fact that she was born in Yorkshire. And why the difference between how she registered Charles 1863 and the info she gave for his baptism. She was obviously illiterate and had something she wanted to hide.
The reference to Eggeven/Oggeven in 1901 could so easily be Hovingham.
Any ideas what parish church would be used for Hovingham residents - baptisms etc?
Another coincidence struck me this evening. My aunt (Mary's grandaughter) married in 1913 a man whose mother was from Coxwold (where James Bradley was born) - and she was a Smith!!
Who was Mary Smith age 15 1851 census working in Skelton, born Brotton?
I have a contact in the U.K. with an Ancestry subscription, I will ask her if she has the one where she could access the criminal record
Margaret
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Hello Ceeoh and Heywood
I have previously checked for anyone with the name of Wingrove. I can't find any notes, but I recall the Maltby reference and that there was nothing else apparently useful. I guess the could be Wingrow. As I recall, Joseph was also illiterate so we probably have someone else's spelling of what he said.. Witnesses at his wedding were not family members and his wife was 16 and pregnant.
Of note is; on further census records Joseph Smith in 1891 is in Crook & Billy Row, Durham with wife and 6 children and in 1901 he is in Hillinghurst Tadcaster with wife and 7 children. He has a boarder called Thomas Leather from Guisborough.
I haven't looked for him in 1911.
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Sorry, just had to comment on the 'Crook & Billy Row'............. Don't know about you, but it conjours up wonderful pictures for me.... ;) ;) ;)
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Sorry, just had to comment on the 'Crook & Billy Row'............. Don't know about you, but it conjours up wonderful pictures for me.... ;) ;) ;)
Sounds great doesn't it. It was a coal mining area, so perhaps the name cheered the gloom!
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It does sound great, I've been trying to work out if it was a sort of rhyming slang :)
Barbara
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i've lost the plot
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i've lost the plot
Sooooooooooo..........what's new....... ;D ;D ;D
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Back on a serious note! I have just reviewed all posts to date:
There's lots to think about here and no ready answers ::)
I wondered about Joseph Wingrove Smith- where does Wingrove come from :-\
I wonder if Smith is another little diversion.
Looking for Joseph Wingrove -Ancestry has an 1860 criminal record entry with imprisonment but I can't access it- wrong membership. :( It is in North Riding)
This is promising as it is previously unknown information. Does anyone have any access?
On a very distant loose end, i have checked Thomas Leather - 1891 he is a hospital patient in Eston, iron stone miner. There is a 50 yr old, widowed Lavinia Leather in Westgate Guisborough - his mother? Westgate is where Charles and Mary Ann Grout live. Can't see either of them earlier, but it looks like he's known to Joseph from home, but no helpful link.
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As you say, it all looks so straightforward ::) ;D
Guess what- Lavinia Leather is a Hawker, born Durham and I can't yet see her anywhere else.
Thomas Leather turns up in 1891 and 1901 - nowhere else as yet and there is no birth record on Free BMD for Guisborough.
We don't even know whether Lavinia is connected to Thomas and whether they are really connected to Mary but ... ;)
Added:
Free BMD has a marriage for Lavinia Leather 1880 (can't see her with any of the spouses) and a death in 1906 for LL - both Guisborough. As ever, I am aware that we are spreading the net perhaps too wide and inappropriately :D
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Have not been able to check 1841 index FindMyPast still down for maintenance!? 24 hours now.
Had another look at Hovingham (suspect Oggeven or Eggeven near York) - it looks to be more than 50 miles from York, not "near" at all. Nearest "big" place would be Malton. There is a parish church in Hovingham - All Saints.
Margaret
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Hello Ceeoh
I believe I checked Hovingham Parish registers at the York archives dept and the only notable name was the baptism of John Burnside.
What was it you neede to check from 1841? Would I find it on ancestry?
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Joseph Wingrove was found guilty of larceny and sentenced to three months imprisonment on 3rd April 1860
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Hi, 1841 - I was going to go back to Smith and see if there were any John Smith with a daughter Mary +- 5 years or so, Yorkshire. I had a look at 1901online 1841 index and there were numerous John Smith between the ages of 25 and 45 within the Guisborough census district but I do not have vouchers for that site - I have a couple left for FindMyPast.
Not sure how Ancestry census works - is it user friendly?
Are you still on Ancestry? Do you have the Ancestry facility to look for the 1960 Joseph Wingrove criminal record entry NR?
Margaret
Added, Spidermonkey has answered the Wingrove query - may thanks
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Thanks Spidermonkey - does it say where Joseph Wingrove was from or where he was imprisoned?
I think we are possibly straying too far away with the Wingrove "connection" but all avenues explored and/or discounted take us a little nearer the true identity of Mary Smith!
Margaret
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Sorry, it doesn't tell you anything more that I gave ::) I'm guessing that as all that is on ancestry is the registers then perhaps the local archives might have some more info.
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Thanks spidermonkey. I was hoping that it would say where Joseph W was based so that may be a clue. The name Wingrove turns up from somewhere :D
Yes I agree with straying too far- somehow the various characters seem to be interlinked or are linked through coincidence- Hawkers, Guisborough, Joseph's age etc but on the other hand nothing knits them together. :-\
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According to ancestry, in 1841 there are 605 Mary Smiths born 1836 +/- 5 years in Yorkshire, living in Yorkshire. :o
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Oh my goodness - that's a tall order - was that all Yorkshire or North Riding?
I was going to look at Guisborough (NR) census area to start with, either a John with a daughter Mary, or a Mary with a father John. Mary could be anywhere from 2 years to 10 years on the 1841 census going by the data we have for her. But were true ages given for under 15s on the 1841 census? Were they also rounded down?
This would have meant find one on the index then view record. 605 times :o
I think Hovingham also falls into the North Riding.
Calling it a night - we are 2 hours ahead of U.K. here.
Many thanks - back on the trail tomorrow.
Margaret
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Had a quick look under Guisborough and Hov* but nothing doing. I widened keyword search to Malton, and there is a Mary Smith bn 1839 with John Smith in Sheriff Hutton, but no clues to suggest that they are the right family. No profession is given, but it appears that the Smith family are living in the same premises as Hornsly family, the head of which was a farmer so perhaps John Smith was an ag lab on his farm......
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Hi again Ceeoh
Re 1841. I will try and check ancestry again, but I feel I have checked before. I even have 1841 on old microfiche and I once indexed all the Smiths in Guisborough and nothing fitted. May be we need to check a wider area, but there will surely be several Mary Smiths dau of John b in Yorkshire of the right age.
Thanks Spidermonkey for checking Joseph Wingrove. I'm afraid I don't have the right subscription to check it on Ancestry.
So, where next? As you say lots of information, but nothing to tie it together
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I've read through the thread and I hope I'm not zipping off on a tangent, but am I correct thinking you haven't found Mary Smith and Joseph in 1861?
How about this RG9 3654:
Joseph Smith 28, labourer, cant work out where born,
Mary Smith 28 born Flockton
Joseph William Smith age 2, born Lackenby
all living at South Bank Terrace, Guisborough
Not Wingrove, but it does start with W
Joseph William's birth appears to be reg Dec Q 1858, Guisborough 9d 398
Family search has Joseph William Smith, parents Joseph and Mary Smith, chris 13 April 1859 at Eston (nr Lackenby).
Flockton, Mary Smith's birthplace in above census is about 2 miles SW of Overton, in the Huddersfield/Barnsley/Wakefield area.
Had a quick look on 1871 census, but couldn't find this family there.
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Ceeoh,
I think it will cost you little but time to list your surnames , places and dates on the travellers board her on Rootschat. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,387.0.html
Smith, Leather, Burnside etc.
Lack of marriage/birth rego details, and name changes seem to be an accepted part of the traveller way. At the very least the people on that board may be able to help or rule the possiibility out.
regards
Robyn
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Good morning - thanks for new input which I must digest.
Regross - good suggestion - will do as you suggest on the travellers board. Many thanks.
Alpine Cottage - the Smith family at South Bank Terrace Guisborough don't ring a bell with me, Stroudie may recall whether we have looked at this one before. Will follow up on this one.
- the Wingrove entry into the saga came about due to a Joseph Smith and family living next door to Mary and Charles Grout in 1881. As follows:
Charles Grout married Mary Smith. Mary had (assumed) an illegitimate son Joseph c1856. 1881 census Charles and Mary are living 10 Hutton's Yard Guisborough. 1881 census living at 8 Huttons Yard are Joseph W Smith age 25 (c1855/56) with wife Margaret and children Joseph W (the father's name) age 4, Charles W age 2 (perhaps for Charles Grout?), and Mary A (perhaps for Mary Ann Grout?). Putting the two together the relationship seemed to be logical.
However, on enquiring at the record office it was discovered that this Joseph was (supposedly) the son of Joseph Wingrove Smith. The father was not recorded as deceased. There is no trace of a registration for a Joseph Wingrove Smith c1856, or any trace of the father Joseph Wingrove Smith, birth marriage death or census.
This has thrown a huge spanner in the works ever since!
Mary has consistently (since 1871) given her birth place as Guisborough, until suddenly 1901 it becomes Oggeven (or Eggeven) near York (neither place exists). And the "near York" bit? As we have no idea who gave the information it could be guesswork, dialect misunderstood by an out-of-town (and tired) enumerator, or Mary being truthful for once but the place name misunderstood or misspelt. Any number of reasons.
Stroudie - I have your lists on file I will dig them out.
I would still like to know - 1851 census who was the Mary Smith age 15 working in Skelton, born Brotton??
I think all the foregoing now needs collating to see what picture it all presents. Will try and put it together later today
Many thanks all
Margaret
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I would still like to know - 1851 census who was the Mary Smith age 15 working in Skelton, born Brotton??
Morning Margaret,
Brotton has a couple of Mary Smiths,as adults, in 1841. Mary Smith aged 15 yrs doesn't seem to be there in the Smith families of Brotton.
Have looked at Skelton too- nothing.
heywood
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I've read through the thread and I hope I'm not zipping off on a tangent, but am I correct thinking you haven't found Mary Smith and Joseph in 1861?
How about this RG9 3654:
Joseph Smith 28, labourer, cant work out where born,
Mary Smith 28 born Flockton
Joseph William Smith age 2, born Lackenby
all living at South Bank Terrace, Guisborough
Not Wingrove, but it does start with W
Joseph William's birth appears to be reg Dec Q 1858, Guisborough 9d 398
Family search has Joseph William Smith, parents Joseph and Mary Smith, chris 13 April 1859 at Eston (nr Lackenby).
Flockton, Mary Smith's birthplace in above census is about 2 miles SW of Overton, in the Huddersfield/Barnsley/Wakefield area.
Had a quick look on 1871 census, but couldn't find this family there.
This family are living in Normanby (reg district Guisborough) in 1861. Mary's birth looks as though it could be Stockton - the 'Fl' could be 'St' but not sure. Someone has written 'Durham' and their lodger's p.o.b. is same and shown as Stockton.
1871 RG10; Piece: 4934; Folio: 25; Page: 4
has a family but father is James ::), Mary b Stockton and son Joseph b Eston.
I would say this is the same family as 1861.
heywood
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Round about 1994 I checked the parish baptism registers on film at Middlesbrough Archive for Brotton and Skelton but could find no trace of a Mary Smith 1830 - 1839 that would fit. Many thanks for checking that one (1841) for me.
Margaret
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I'm going to have to leave this for now- lots to do :D
I notice that Joseph changes his age too in the censuses which doesn't help much!
Were the children named in the wills- did Joseph get a mention as a so in Mary's will?
heywood
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Good one Heywood. Just read Mary's Will.
The bulk of her assests are in trust for three grandchildren Violetta - daughter of her son John, Eliza - daughter of her son Charles, and John Alexander Thompson - son of her daughter Emma (with provisos for age attainment, marriage etc.)
However - at the end of the will comes this :) .....I direct my trustees to sell and convert into money all other my real and personal estate and to stand possessed of the proceeds of such sale and or conversion upon trust after payment thereout of my funeral and testamentary expenses and debts for my sons JOSEPH SMITH, John Grout and George Grout as tenants in common in equal shares .......
The Will was drawn in 1903, Mary died 1906.
Soooooo - Joseph was her son and he was still around in 1901
Progress :)
Now - did someone say they had checked the 1901 census - must go back and read all the postings and start again fom there.
Many thanks
Margaret
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Margaret,
that's good to know about Joseph from the point of view of all this searching :D
1901 RG13; Piece: 4430; Folio: 61; Page: 70
Hollinghurst Allerton Bywater
Joseph Smith 52yrs Coal Miner b Guisborough
Margaret 41 yrs b -do-
Joseph 24 yrs Coalminer b -do-
Emma 16 yrs b Yorks Grangetown
John 14 yrs b Trap Door Minder Yorks Maggra Park
Isabella 12 yrs b Castleford
Florence 10yrs b Durham Sunnyside
Maggie 7 yrs b Castleford
Halph 2yrs b Castleford
John Plummer boarder married 41yrs Coal Miner b Norwich
Thomas Leather boarder married 34yrs Coal Miner b Guisborough
Guisborough has been transcribed as Gainsborough but it reads 'Guis..'
This is what I meant re age- in 1891 Joseph is aged 38 yrs.
heywood
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Many thanks for 1901 data Heywood.
Well!! This rather looks as if the Wingrove was a red herring.
Very interesting is the fact that by 1901 Joseph and Margaret have:
Joseph (probably named for his father or was Joseph W Smith the elder, the father of Mary's son),
Emma (Mary Smith and Charles Grout had a daughter Emma),
John (Mary Smith and Charles Grout had a son John, also Mary says her father was John),
Isabella (there was Isabella Burnside a witness at the Smith/Grout marriage, or Mary Smith and Charles Grout's son Edward married an Isabella)
Florence, Maggie and Halph (is this Halph or Ralph?) don't mean anything to me at the moment.
Charles W born c1878 and Mary A born c1880 are not with the family
I would say this (almost) conclusively shows Joseph next door to Mary in 1881 is her son.
Now I wonder : was Mary married to a Mr (Joseph) Smith?
Was she a single woman with an illegitimate son and conjured Mr Smith up for appearances?
Does this look as if she did belong to a travelling family group?
Certainly it looks as if she was connected to the Burnside family.
1863 when son Charles (Grout) was born she declares herself to be a single woman on his baptism record.
1869 when she married Charles (after thee children) she declares herself to be a single woman.
To me it rather looks as if Mary would wriggle around the truth when it suited her, but she couldn't bring herself to lie in church!!
This is great - may thanks heywood.
Where is/was Allington Bywater?
Margaret
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Allerton Bywater between Leeds and Castleford West Yorks - colliery there :)
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Re Mary's son Joseph - census discrepancy in age.
I have only worked from what I found 1871 census which recorded him as 14 years (bc1856/57) that could quite easily have been incorrect.
1871 - 14 (c1856/57)
1881 - 25 (c1855/56)
1891 - 38 (c1852/53) (I haven't seen this)
1901 - 52 (c1848/49)
Back to freebmd!!
Margaret
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sorry- mistyped Allerton Bywater ::) have amended
I thought you had him in 1891- Crook and Billy Row but here he is:
1891 RG12; Piece: 4077; Folio 33; Page 2
1 Double Row, Crook and Billy Row Durham
Joseph Smith 38 yr Coal Miner b Guisboro
Margaret 31 yr b -do-
Joseph 15 yr Coal Miner b -do-
Charles 14 yr -do- b Skelton
Mary A 10 yr b Rosedale Abbey
Amy 6 yr b Grange Town
John 4 yr b Margate Park
Isabela 2 yr b Castleford
William Little Lodger 33 yr Coal Miner b Cumberland Whitehaven
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I see Stroudie had picked up a Joseph on Billy Row/Crook 1891 and again Tadcaster 1901 but I had not realised this was "our" Joseph, thought it was just one more to add to the confusion!!
Nice to have it confirmed, many thanks.
Thanks for the 1891 data.
I think I made the mistake about Allerton (Allington), mind spinning at a rate of many knots with all this information :D
Margaret
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Hi
I'm following posts but regrettably have huge work commitments at present, so unable to follow up at present. Somewhere have lists of lots of Mary and joseph Smiths and the reasons why I excluded them. Margaret do you have copies?
Keep up the good work!
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Hi Stroudie - I'm sure you must have sent them at some time - will have to have a look. Bit difficult, as you know I am working "one-armed" at the moment! Awkward for going through files!!
I have put a request on the traveller list but they need a bit more information than I gave so need to follow up on that also.
Delighted we at least have Joseph in place.
Margaret
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I've just been looking at the travellers board on Rootschat and I'm fascinated by the whole use of names issue. It appears from quick scanning that change of name and avoidance of formalities regarding registration of birth and marriage are common. Children or male partners may often take the woman's name and having a child together is regarded as a marriage. I think this may go a long way towards explaining the difficulties we are encountering.
I'm going to post a link to this scavenger hunt there and see if anyone has more specialist knowledge.
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I'm on a roll now!
Have a look at this
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,254942.0.html
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I was just in the middle of posting that I thought it was a good idea re travellers board because even though there is no real proof as yet, the family seems to be touched by hawkers etc in several ways.
I was also going to add that I wonder whether it would be feasible to find the witnesses at Ambrose and Isabella's marriage to see if there was a clue there but they were married in 1849 and depending on Mary's age, she may not be old enough.
Let's hope the roll continues :D
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Hello Heywood
What a good idea. I have just emailed a correspondent who is a Burnside descendant and is in contact with several others. I hope either he, or someone he knows may have seen this certificate.
Fingers crossed.
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Hi, this is fantastic.
I think heywood has a good idea in trying to find out the witnesses at Ambrose and Isabella's marriage. Stroudie - hope your contact has the answer to this one. It's beginning to look as if Mary and Ambrose could have been brother and sister! If Mary was born 1831 she would have been old enough to be a witness at Ambrose's marriage (18)
How did you create the link? Perhaps I should link my query but don't know how to do it!! I was going to enlarge on it but having seen this it might be better to do the link instead.
Margaret
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Hi Ceeoh
According to my correspondent, yes Ambrose is brother to Mary Burnside;
"children of Edward and Sarah
Edward b 1824 Aycliffe d 1847 Guis
Jonas b 1826 Aycliffe Iron miner
Ambrose b 1829 Deighton, Northallerton occ hawker m Isabella Gordon b 1824
Mary b 1831 Guis
Benjamin b 1834 Guis Pottery hawker
John b 1837 Guis d Easington Lane 1914 Wire screen hawker
Sarah b 1840 Guis
Isabella b 183 Guis
Joseph b 1846 Guis General "
I also note Hovingham; A parish in the wapentake of Rydale; 7 miles from Helmsley, 8 from Kirkby Moorside, 9 from Malton, 19 from York.
To create link. Go to the page copy the http address from the navigation toolbar at the top and paste it where you need it to be seen
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Hi everyone,
we had this link earlier in thread when the Burnside (s) family were in Guisborough.
There are some Mary Burnside deaths and marriages I think which with a common name and with the family moving between the two counties could be her and then ... ::)
I do hope someone has some info for Mary.
heywood
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Stroudie,
What a great find on the travellers board :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,254942.0.html
Burnside and Ambrose and in the right part of the country :D
Nice to see that you have seen the parralells in record keeping to your family, it was this that made me suggest the travellers board. There are lots of interesting threads and now I am wonndering if some of my brickwalls may also be because of a trveller connection, right names and riht geography so now to explore that possibilty.
regards and good hunting
Robyn
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I have details for marriage of Ambrose and Isabella from my correspondent, but it does not include witnesses.
Apparently Durham marriages are available online.
"Isabellas father was Alexander Gordon (Potter)
Kelloe St. Helens 12feb1849 Ambrose Burnsides bach. coalminer minor of Ox close Coxhoe son of Edward Burnsides(Potter) m Isabella Gordon spins. minor"
There is also a reply to my post on the travelers board from Jane who has Burnside links. Note the name is sometimes spelled with an S on the end.
So...watch this space...
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Hi,
Marriage details re Ambrose and Isabella - perhaps we could put a lookup request on for St Helen's Kelloe - ask if SKS could check the entry for the witnesses.
Any idea where these records would be kept?
Took a flyer to see who Mary's lodgers were on the 1901 census, thought there may have been a familliar name, nothing here that rings a bell:
Robert Lloyd, widower 52 gardener born London
John Olford single 37 bricklayers labourer born Eston
Margaret Nelson widow 70 seamstress born Scarborough
John Haley single 37 general labourer born Sligo Ireland
Charles Ropson single 49 general labourer born Thornaby
Richard Jones single 63 general labourer born Cardiff
Thomas Wilsom single 42 general labourer born Leeds
George W Jenkes widower 45 general labourer born Guisborough
William M Dodgom single 54 joiner born Kirby Moorside
William Smith married 66 general labourer born Bristol Glos. Couple of Smith who I presume
Ann Smith married 66 born Huddersfield to be married to each other
George Wilson single 49 mariner born Sandsend Yks
Frank Winspear single 70 miller born Newsome Yks
John Grame single 64 general labourer born Barnsley
This is from the transcription not the image so there may be misspellings in some of the names
Margaret
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As well as these lodgers, Charles and Mary had their 10 yr old grandson , Charles A J Mullen , born Grangetown, Yorks. living with them at time of 1901 census. There is a birth reg Middlesborough Mar Q 1891 - Charles Alexander T Mullen. I note this Charles doesn't appear to be mentioned in the will, but doesn't seem to have died before 1906 either
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Charles A T Mullen died in Sept qtr 1952 in Middlesbrough. Does that rule him in or out :D
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The "John" Alexander Mullen mentioned in Mary's Will is actually Charles Alexander Mullen (his father was John who died before this child was born). I think he was known as "Allick". As far as I can make out he is still alive in 1911.
Violetta daughter of John and grandaughter of Mary mentioned in the Will was known variously as Vietta, Violetta and Violet, she was baptsied Vietta. I do not know why she was specifically mentioned in the Will as Mary had dozens of grandchildren!! However, she may have been looking after a younger sister ??
The other two : Eliza Grout daughter of Charles her father died in the mines, and Charles A T MUllen(John) father died before he was born - and was born when his mother was only sixteen - presumably that is why those two in particular are mentioned.
Margaret
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Thanks spidermonkey - this will be "Allick" Charles Alexander Thompson Mullen 1952. I didn't have a date for his death. That would make him about 62. Definitely rules him in as far as the Will is concerned!
Margaret
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Good, glad he's still in!
Mary's son Joseph - was he the one with middle initial W? Am looking at deaths at the moment to see if I can find a likely candidate.
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Deaths for Joseph W Smith bn 1853 +/- 5 years, in Yorkshire.
Joseph William Smith bn 1849 d 1908 Leeds
Joseph W Smith bn 1853 d 1915 Wharfedale
Joseph W Smith bn 1857 d 1906 Burnley
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Joseph was still around in 1901 - see census details previous page - in Allerton Bywater. 1906 he is in his mother's Will and is referred to as Joseph (no W). 1871, 1891, and 1901 he doesn't use the W so we don't know if this was a red herring when he married Margaret Lynn, or did he really have a father Joseph W(Wingrove, Wingrave) Smith. If so we never found him!! Going by where his children were born - and he seems to keep changing his mind about that as well as how old he is - the family moved around.
To ascertain if he is one of the three you give would mean buying certificates I think, to see who registered the death - but that's no guarantee that it was one of the family.
I haven't has yet looked for him aged between 53 and 63, in 1911.
I rather think the W part was added in to make him "legitimate". His wife was very young when they married - only 16 I think.
Margaret
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Hi Stroudie
Have a look at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,411479.30.html
there is some Burnside data on there in reply to a question I asked preshous who is researching the Burnside.
Have put a request on Durham lookup requests to see if anyone is going to Durham Record Office who would look at Ambrose/Isabella marriage and tell us who the witnesses were.
Margaret
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Hello Ceeoh
Wow!! I can't quite digest it all, but if all these folk are having difficulty linking relationships among Burnsides, what hope have we got of fitting in a Smith?
I did just wonder, if Mary was from a family of travelers/ tinkers, how likely is it that she would marry outside of the traveling community?
We know a lot about Charles Grout's background and it is much more conventional. He came from Loughton Essex, where the family remained. There is an unproven family story that he fled to escape charges for poaching in Epping Forest. His father was a publican and owned land and property and left a fairly substantial legacy, but divided many ways. Charles and some of his family benefited from the will, so contact with the family appears to have been maintained. Charles was literate.
What is SKS?
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SKS = Some Kind Soul :)
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Hello,
just got totally lost in the Burnside thread and did not even try to make sense of it all- this is bad enough :D
I did note that way back there was a Violetta in the very extended family.
heywood
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Hi Heywood
Yes, I wondered about Violetta.
I am shooting off on tangents, but I'm just trying to check old notes for any clues. One is a marriage given to me by someone else:
James Burton durham central =Mary Burnside 1859
I wonder if this could rule out Mary Burnside, if we can follow this Mary through
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In this extended family, there could be lots of Marys :( I was hoping that someone had followed up the Edward/Sarah family and accounted for all children.
Wouldn't that be just brilliant :D
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As far as i am aware from previous correspondence, no one seems to have followed up Mary Burnside. Does that mean she has no known descendants? She doesn't seem to be found in the 1841 census or 1861, though she could be married by then.
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From the travelers board;
"I'm afraid I do not have the original marriage cert' for Ambrose Burnside and Isabella Gordon, (died 28/11/1898 Airdrie), so I'm no help there Sad.
Did you know that Isabella went on to marry William Cunningham brn abt 1825 in Oldham, died 4/5/1900 in Airdrie
He was the widower of (I think, but have to confirm the link) her sister Margaret Gordon brn abt 1825 in Oldham."
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Hi
With what we have, Mary Smith being a Mary Burnside looks a very good option, the only thing I cannot get my head around is why she would take the name Smith without a reason.
Did Joseph have a father "Smith" but as mentioned previously if a couple lived together and had a child they were regarded as married, and he left "reasons unknown" between census returns.
Perhaps marrying Charles was her way of settling into a more (acceptable) established life. Going by her Will she was fairly well off by the time she died.
If she had been living by traveller custom in the eyes of the law and the church she would still be a single woman until 1869. Certainly in 1863 when son Charles was born she didn't seem to know much about Charles senior going by the information she gave on his birth registration.
Margaret
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Goodmorning :)
The trouble is we don't know why she said what she did - if only ... ;)
When Charles was born, she was presumably known as Smith and as Charles was illegitimate, he has his father's surname as his middle name.
However, calling Charles snr by the name of Smith seems more strange and perhaps that was just a mistake on the part of the registrar or just more 'proper'.
If only we could find Joseph's registration- that may show more because if she followed that thinking above, the father would be Joseph Wingrove!
The son has called himself that in marriage, and it is quite a rare name. It's a funny name to just dream up.
Back to the wondering and thinking :D
heywood
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Mary didn't even have Charles's name correct (if it wasn't a clerical error) Charles Grouth Smith. Remembering Charles was in Whitby as at the 1861 census, and Mary would fall pregnant with Charles around August 1862 - I don't think she had known him all that long!!
I wish we could access the mine records to see when Charles started work there, but they seem to be "lost". They were in the British Steel Archive, then taken over by Corus and "supposedly" passed on the Middlesbrough Archive. I have asked about them (a long time ago) and was advised they were still sorting the mine records out - perhaps it's time I asked again!
Margaret
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It could be just a clerical error - she may not have been very literate - she may have had a lisp- it could be accent .. again we have no idea.
As you say, they may have only known each other a short time but the census was in April 1861 so to August 1862- that's quite some time. She may even have known him before the census- again we don't know- we can't find her!
It would be good if we could eliminate that Mary Smith -Brotton/Skelton from the possible Marys.
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The Brotton/Skelton Mary was the one I was banking on when I first started looking c1994! but as there is no supporting evidence for her, baptism parish record or census pre 1871 she seems to have appeared from and vanished into thin air!
Margaret
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Hello ceeoh
Have spent the evening searching, though not found much.
However, take a look at
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=423423.new#new
A little more scandal, in that it appears that by 1881 Isabella Burnside is giving herself as a widow, while Ambrose is still alive and that she possibly goes on to 'marry' someone else.
The plot thickens!
Julie
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Hi,
I've posted on other thread re the marriage of an Ambrose B in 1842. Just wondering who he is. There are a whole host of spouses - one called Mary Smith ???
heywood
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It's time for this weeks Scavenger Hunt and here it is.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,423828.0.html
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.
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I don't really want to be posting on two threads re Ambrose but I have done ::)
Found the two who marry in 1849 in the censuses- Ambrose b Guisb. to Isabella and Ambrose b Aycliffe to Alice.
As I said there is an earlier marriage who may be the second one who remarries Alice. As I said- a host of spouses, one of whom was a Mary Smith. Wondered if by any chance he married her and she had a daughter Mary Smith and ... imagination getting out of hand so am not going to pursue that one.
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On behalf of Stroudie and myself, thank you all for the wonderful response in our search for Mary Smith - or whatever her name turns out to be. Although we haven't actually run her to earth, the suggestions and the data put forward certainly gives us plenty to think about. Now it's time to collate it all and see just what we have.
Should anyone find anything further on our mystery lady - all suggestions and input will be most appreciated. And should we be fortunate enough to work out who she actually was we will certainly post it.
Thank you all
Margaret
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Thanks ladies- I enjoyed it. ;)
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Hello All,
Sorry that i missed the hunt, but i went on the wrong thread.
I have quite a bit of info on this Burnside line, although i dont think it would have helped. Ihave been in touch with "Stroudie" for quite a time and was pleased to see how she and "ceeoh" had mustered the interest and help.
At this point i would like to stress the importance of keeping any records,photos etc. Several years ago me eldest brother died and his son told me he was selling the family bible for ten pounds. I wasnt interested in Genealogy then but offered him a hundred,( being disgusted).which he refused. He no longer has it. The bible was from my Grandad Mcdonald, down from the Burnsides(Benjamin) who was Marys brother. I cannot remember anything written, except there was about 10-12 entries.
What a sin!!
I see you are still getting wrong info. Ambrose married to Alice was Ambrose from Shincliffe sister of Elizabeth1808 who later married Robinson Lindsley, whos dau. Dinah married the above Benjamin( that wasnt the only inter marriage.
Good fun IT HELPS TO STOP YOU GOING SANE!!!!
Fred
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Hi Fred
Thank you for your contributions to the other threads. I am presently trying to collate all my old notes and then I may be back with more questions.
How tragic about the family bible. sadly, we have never had anything written to go by, but on the other side of my family, a collection of postcards belonging to my granny's sister were sold to a dealer and I couldn't find out where they had gone and i was gutted. I felt their previous owner would have given them to me, if she could have anticipated this.
However, your comments raised an interesting thought. Do you know what was the general level of literacy among the Burnsides? Both Mary Smith and her son Joseph signed their marriage certificates with x, so one assumes they were illiterate. It won't make any difference either way, but is another point of interest.
Best wishes
Julie
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hi ceeoh, my wife is currently researching our joint family trees, Charles and Mary Grout are my great great grandparents, John William Grout is my great grandfather, he's the brother of your George (who was the landlord of the Anchor pub, Belmangate Guisborough). You are welcome to look at our tree Carney Gallacher Tree on Ancestry.com
Hary G.
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Hello - what a pleasant surprise after all this time.
Not sure if I can access your tree on Ancestry, I do not have a sub to that website. I will try.
I have a 70 page family register for the Grout family - not up to date I'm afraid but lots of information.
John William (1865) married Margaret Elizabeth Cotts or Coates. Sons Joseph 1886, (Charles 1892 - 1892), John W 1897, George 1899 and Alec 1906. Which one is your grandfather?
Many thanks for your input, will try your Ancestry tree.
Regards Ceeoh
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Hello to you Hary
As you will see from previous messages. I am also connected to this ( huge!) family my g grandfather was Edward Gout who was the brother of John William.
I have looked on Ancestry and I find a Carney tree that gives Bella Grout m John Gallacher 1920. But no parents details. I think this may not be yours.
I would be most interested to know if you know any more of Mary Ann Grout ( formerly Smith). I have some theories, but we have drawn a blank on any concrete evidence.
Ceeoh and myself have been collaborating for some years and have probably pieced together a great deal of the rest.
Best wishes
Julie
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Hi
This is all fascinating stuff! Our tree on ancestry is 'Carney Gallacher.' we had very little knowledge of the Grout family and are overwhelmed by the enormity of it. Every day we seem to be saying "Wow" and we are sure you have more facts that will make this continue. Harry's Great Grandad is John William.
We look forward to the next instalment!
Harry and Sandra