RootsChat.Com
Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Topic started by: drodgers34 on Tuesday 01 December 09 02:39 GMT (UK)
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..because I searched public photos (images posted by members in public member trees) using "1911 Census' as text and I got over 16,000 hits.
Most of them are uploaded scans which obviously came from Findmypast
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Hi
I suspect anyone uploading an image of the 1911 England & Wales Census onto Ancestry would not only be in breach of Findmypasts Terms & Conditions but also in breach of the National Archives Crown Copyright as Ancestry doesn't have an agreement re the 1911 census.
What you do have to consider though is that Ancestry does have the 1911 Canadian Census and no doubt many of your hits would be links to the 1911 Canadian Census
Andy
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Good point - but they could just link to the canadian one - I suspect the majority is the english 1911
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Most of them are uploaded scans which obviously came from Findmypast
Just a point, how do you know they came from FindMyPast? I have numerous scans from the 1911 census which were obtained at the National Archives, as is my right. I do not subscribe to FindMyPast, and they cannot impose their conditions on non-subscribers.
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... how do you know they came from FindMyPast? I have numerous scans from the 1911 census which were obtained at the National Archives, as is my right. I do not subscribe to FindMyPast, and they cannot impose their conditions on non-subscribers.
Because the National Archives did not scan/digitise the 1911 census returns ... FindMyPast paid for the privilege. As andycand suggests, presumably in their terms and conditions made with the National Archives they maintain some control over the use of the images - even at the Nat Archives venues. I guess it changes when their licensing period runs out and other commercial family history companies can buy FindMyPast's images or pay to scan it all again, and create their own indexes.
K.
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No, TNA retains copyright of the images, regardless of who did the scanning. They are obliged to provide the public with free access to the 1911 (and previous) censuses. Obviously it was most convenient for them to make them available via the scans made by FindMyPast. FindMyPast do have copyright on their own transcriptions and format, but not on the information itself.
But my point is that non-FindMyPast subscribers cannot be bound by FindMyPast conditions. In the same way, if someone who is doing, say, a one-place study collects copies of all the 1911 household schedules for that place at TNA, there is nothing to prevent them from offering look-ups to interested parties.
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No, TNA retains copyright of the images, regardless of who did the scanning. They are obliged to provide the public with free access to the 1911 (and previous) censuses. Obviously it was most convenient for them to make them available via the scans made by FindMyPast. FindMyPast do have copyright on their own transcriptions and format, but not on the information itself.
But my point is that non-FindMyPast subscribers cannot be bound by FindMyPast conditions. In the same way, if someone who is doing, say, a one-place study collects copies of all the 1911 household schedules for that place at TNA, there is nothing to prevent them from offering look-ups to interested parties.
I agree that non-FindMyPast subscribers cannot be bound by FindMyPast conditions. However, as you say yourself, TNA retains copyright of the images, regardless of who did the scanning. That being the case, anyone who obtains a copy direct from TNA and then scans it to load it to a web site is breaching TNA's copyright.
Graham
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Graham, I simply emailed in and was given permission from brightsolid online publishing.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/census/1911census.htm
The TNA have no copyright on the original forms as this has expired, the householder who filled in the form held the copyright on the words he/she added to the form.
Brightsolid online publishing hold the copyright of the digital images.
Cheers
Guy
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The TNA have no copyright on the original forms as this has expired, the householder who filled in the form held the copyright on the words he/she added to the form.
Thanks, Guy, I was forgetting that 1911 is different from the previous census in that the retained schedule is the householder's original form and not the enumerator's copy.
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Thanks for the clarification Guy.
Just to put the whole thing to bed.
If TNA supplies a photocopy of an original form (i.e. a photocopy created by TNA) isn't it the case that copyright, held by TNA, applies to that photocopy?
That would be equivalent to Brightsolid online publishing holding the copyright of the digital images.
Thus, isn't it the case that it would be breach of TNA's copyright for anyone to scan a photocopy and publish the scan online without permission from TNA?
Graham
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No making a photocopy does not create the conditions required to copyright a work.
The digitising may as expertise and further processing is used to create the digital copy (in the same manner as taking a photograph).
Cheers
Guy
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Just one more thing, Guy!
If I have made copies of 1911 schedules at TNA, there is nothing to prevent my making my own transcriptions of these available in response to look-up requests. Would you say that is correct?
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No making a photocopy does not create the conditions required to copyright a work.
The digitising may as expertise and further processing is used to create the digital copy (in the same manner as taking a photograph).
Cheers
Guy
Thanks Guy. Don't eat too many mince pies now ;)
Graham
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Just one more thing, Guy!
If I have made copies of 1911 schedules at TNA, there is nothing to prevent my making my own transcriptions of these available in response to look-up requests. Would you say that is correct?
That is correct.
Cheers
Guy
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How do you search photos on Ancestry? I've never seen this search facility.
thanks
Tewin
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go to list all databases and scroll to find public member photos
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Thanks very much - I'll give it a go, although Ancestry seems to be down right now (seems an increasingly regular occurrence).
Tewin
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Thats Ok - was going to give more detail but coudnt get on to try it.
You need to get where all the databases are listed to search individually. There are millions of photos now so will be nearwe the top of the list - It could be categorised under photographs or member trees.
I just heard about "ancestry trees to go" for ipod/iphone and am itching to try it - alas the site is down. the blog mentions a 3 your outage on thurs morning