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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: genjen on Sunday 29 November 09 19:41 GMT (UK)
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Well here I am, still in France, but I am so pleased because I can tell you that I managed to get photographs of all the graves and memorials on my list.
It was an extraordinary few days, which I wouldn't have missed for anything. My plan now is to go through the trip in order of days and events, so keep an eye out because, if you asked me to find someone, your photograph will be there eventually.
Jen
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Wow ...you really have been busy ...welldone ... you deserve a medal for that ... thank you for being so very kind ...
Poll :-*
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Sounds like you are having a good time Jen.
Glad you are enjoying it and thank you for your kindness :)
Kerry
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We landed in France on Wednesday morning and headed straight away for Belgium and the Ypres area.
I had intended to go to Poperinge and visit the Talbot House museum and then to go and find my great uncle James, plus some others, in Lijssenthoek cemetery. As far as I knew, this was between Poperinge and Ypres so it fitted in with my journey plan.
So imagine my surprise when, as we approached Poperinge, the first cemetery we saw was, in fact, Lijssenthoek and the first grave I found was my own great uncle's. My grandfather's brother, James Shaw Howe, emigrated from Scotland to Australia and fought with the Australian Army. I have his 'Death Penny' at home on my mantlepiece and am now feel even more priveleged to have it.
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You certainly have been busy. Looking forward to reading further of your travels.
Cheers
KHP
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When we arrived at Lijssenthoek, it was late morning and we were hungry and desperate for a coffee. It was wet and cold and I hadn't thought I'd be finding James quite so soon. I'd meant to take him some flowers or a poppy at the very least but as it was, I just had a little chat.
There is a massive project at the moment, with this particular cemetery so when I get home and unpack, I'll post details so that KarenM and davidrigg3 can have a look at the web site, if they want to.
In the meantime, here are some more of this cemetery.
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Gunner Woolley, for davidrigg3.
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I can't believe you have done everything on your list! You have been busy.
Can't wait to see your pics. :)
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Another one of Gunner Woolley, plus a general one of the cemetery
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And finally for tonight, Private Blackall, for KarenM. Someone had left a little flag by every Canadian grave.
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How wonderful you were able to get everything on the list.
I'm looking forward to seeing them all.
:)
Betty
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It will be Tuesday or Wednesday before I post any more. Off to bed now - I know it's early, even in France, but I have a busy day of shopping tomorrow before catching the boat home. There is wine to be bought - and a supply of olive oil to last six months! See you soon!
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JEN!! Thank you so much!!!!
How wonderful to see the Canadian Flag as well!!!!
Karen
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Thanks Jen - glad it has been a good trip.
Milly
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Hi Jen
Well done you on behalf of us all, I am very impressed, and SO looking forward to seeing the results as they appear.
Many thanks in advance,
Copperbeech5
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Hello Jen,
I'm glad to hear that you have had an enjoyable time, and especially that you were so lucky in finding your Great Uncle so quickly.
Thank you just doesn't express how grateful I am for your endeavours on this trip. I'm not sure right now how I feel about seeing the photos of Benjamin Woolley's grave, I have a tear in my eye as I type and am having trouble seeing the keyboard at the moment. They really are exceptional shots, so clear and very professional. I think I need to go make a cup of tea - will be back soon.
Jen - you are an absolute star!!
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Jen .... what an amazing task you undertook ... and how very kind of you and Ceilidh Man to find EVERYONE you were asked to find !
Fantastic ... safe journey back to Cumbria ...
Have a Santa X :-* .... we need a Santa hugging smilie ! Everyone would use it on you !
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Jen - an amazing thread and wonderful photos. Glad you have enjoyed your trip and looking forward to the next instalment.
Crystal
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Jen - what an amazing job you have done finding details for everybody on your list. The photos you have posted so far are wonderful.
You are probably back in Cumbria now - hope you had a safe journey and managed to find enough time for your essential supplies of wine and olive oil ;D
As has already been said....... you are a STAR 8)
Maggie
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Hello,
Just letting you know that I am home and will carry on with posting photographs as soon as I can but it might be tomorrow before I get round to re-sizing and sorting all the photographs.
I had an amazing time and bizarrely, absolutely loved it. It was incredibly emotional, as several of you said it would be, but it is someting I have wanted to do and having been, I now want to go back to see more.
Your thanks are unnecessary - I feel priveleged to have been able to go and to visit all these places and somewhat humbled by the whole experience.
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Good to feel 'umble ... but also good to accept peoples thanks Jen ... they mean it !
Jen for 'RootsChatter of the Year' award I think ...
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Good to feel 'umble ... but also good to accept peoples thanks Jen ... they mean it !
I know they do. :)
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Here is another one from Lijssenthoek, though all the cemeteries have one of these.
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Glad you enjoyed your trip - it is emotional isn't it!
Jan
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When we left Lijssenthoek, with promises to myself and to my great uncle that we will be back, we headed into Poperinge. It was not a town which I knew much about before planning this trip but I knew that I wanted to visit the Talbot House Museum.
Talbot House was a place in which many soldiers must have found a temporary haven of peace and the museum is an absolute must for anyone visiting the area. And one of the most important aspects is the sentiment expressed on this floorboard.
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The Chaplain's room....
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My uncle went there !! He was a keen Toc H man ...
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I just had a browse ... is it OK if I add this link to your thread Jen ??
http://www.greatwar.co.uk/ypres-salient/museum-talbot-house-history.htm
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That's a really good link - I have been reading it again myself today. So now, if anyone wants to know the full story, use Lydart's link and I'll just post a few more photographs.
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And a couple of the chapel....
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One of the 'exhibits' was a film, made within the last few years, of how a concert party would have been in the house. As we walked round, we could hear the music and when we finally reached it, we sat down to watch. The two main performers had white make-up on their faces, which meant that it was a minute or two before I realised that the one with the melodeon was actually someone who is one of my favourite performers on the British folk circuit. Ceilidh Man has actually worked with him a few times but still didn't recognise him at first. Although I knew that he has done a lot of work on songs from the WW1 era, including an album of music and songs from the time of the Christmas Truce, it was still very strange to see him on the screen.
I do have more photos of the house and garden but am going to move on to the next cemetery now.
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Well how emotional is that? Tears flowed through the whole reading....always wrenches at my heart to see all those fellows in row upon row...Nice of you to share of yourself like that, gen... I imagine your great uncle led you right to his place of rest...and your words were likely more solid a gift than any flowers... J.J.
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Wow Jen ... now I'm feeling all emotional, even though I don't have any near rellies in the cemeteries ... those Talbot House pics remind me of my very sensitive Uncle Jack who was in WW2 ... he was in Belgium at the end of the war, and came back 'shell shocked' by what he'd seen and had been asked to do. Being what I suspect was gay, he suffered as much from the hands of the other soldiers as from what he saw. He used to go to the chapel at Talbot House for respite; I think that chapel saved his sanity ...
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I rather think that Tubby Clayton and the other staff at Talbot House saved the sanity of many people.
For myself, there was an additional bonus. In the house itself there is always an english speaking person, to help visitors and to answer any questions. I mentioned that my great uncle was buried in Lijssenthoek and having established the day on which he died, I was the shown on the map exactly where he would have been fighting. I had a short private lesson on the Third Battle of Ieper, or Passchendaele, as we are more likely to know it. I would have liked to stay much longer to learn more but time was getting on, so that's for next time.
From Poperinge, we headed into Ieper ( I shall give it its Belgian name, even though we all know it better as Ypres). And just a few kilometers out of the town, my next cemetery in Vlamertinge. The first photograph is of the cross, which again, is a feature of all the CWGC cemeteries.
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And for Madpants, here is Sapper Wolstencroft.
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Well how emotional is that? Tears flowed through the whole reading.....
Yep, same thing with me.
KHP
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By the time we had found and photographed Sapper Wolstencroft, it was time to go into Ieper and to check in to our hotel. The Ambrosia proved to be very quiet, down a side street from the main square. It was small and family run, nothing glamorous but perfectly comfortable and very convenient for the town centre, museums and the Menin Gate.
Our plan was to go to the eight o'clock ceremony at the Menin Gate and then to find somewhere simple to eat. It had been a very long day and seemed ages since we came through the tunnel that morning. (Incidentally, if you haven't done it, the channel tunnel is very quick and effiicent but I still prefer the ferry. I didn't much like the ear popping thing or the slightly claustrophobic feeling.)
So we went for a little walk, checked out the restaurants and quickly realised that there wasn't a huge amount of choice for veggies but a little bistro, very close to the Menin Gate said it was open that evening and it had pasta and pizza choices, so we settled for that and went back to the hotel to have a bit of a rest and clean up before going out for the evening.
At seven thirty we went out again, planning to call in and book a table on our way to the ceremony. The restaurant was still closed but there were lights on so we thought it would open in time for the people comimg away from the gate.
At the end of November and mid week, we expected there might be a small gathering for the ceremony and were truly amazed to find that by five to eight, there were probably two hundred people there, including three school groups. The efficiency with which the officials closed the road and organised the crowd was so smooth. There were three youngsters from an English school who were there representing their school and laying a wreath. They did it with quiet dignity and I should imagine their teachers would have been very proud of them. I had intended to take photographs but somehow, when the moment came, it didn't feel appropriate and I wanted to concentrate on what was actually happening, so I'm sorry, you will just have to take my word for it that the Last Post was so moving and that even the youngest children were absolutely silent during it. I was standing very close to the panel with the name of another of my great uncles. But there are so many names, it is absolutely impossible to take in the numbers and to think that these are the ones whose bodies were never found.
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The restaurant was still closed and we ended up paying a ridiculous amount of money for omelette and chips in a different one which plainly likes ripping off the tourists!
But as a first day, it had been quite amazing. I was looking forward to the next one......
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I visited the Menin Gate on the way home from a holiday a few years ago. It was during the day, but even then there was a peaceful, respectful atmosphere there.
Jan
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The astonishing thing was that the following morning, it wasn't raining! It didn't last long but we did manage to go back to the Menin Gate to look for my two great uncles as well as your ancestors.
here is the Gate in sunshine. It is truly amazing to think that all of those walls are just covered with names.
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The panels on the Menin Gate are huge and although it is in very good condition, some of them are slightly more faded or eroded than others. What we tried to do was to get a reasonably close up shot of each of your names and where possible, another, from slightly further back to give an idea of who else was named from each regiment or battallion. Some have worked better than others but I think you should be able to read your person's name.
Here is Leonard Arthur Johnson, for Kaybron.
I am sure it is him as all the details are correct but he does seem to have more initials than I was given. And there was no other person of this name on the panel numbers I had for him.
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And John Henry Freeman for tedscout
He was right at the top of a section so not the easiest to read, sorry.
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The M.M. added at the end of some names should have had a space or no dots to stand it out..( Oh, I just looked again and there are 2 dots ( or comma?) between name & award, but still hard to distinguish)
Military Medal http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/gallantry2.htm
Quote from site:
"First instituted in March 1916 as an award for distinguished service in the field for Warrant Officers, NCO's and lower ranks. The award of an MM was also possible for women. All awards of the MM were announced in the London Gazette, with no citation. No citations or receommandations now exist.
When you find the listing in the London Gazette, note the date of publication. The event for which the award was made was usually some 3-4 months before. MM awards are often mentioned in war diaries.
The recipient was allowed to use the initials MM after their name."
Hoo, Now I don't feel so badly about my spelling..."receommandations ? "
The Gazette note should be helpful for those searching though... link here for those who hadn't seen it yet...: http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/
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Thanks J.J. It did seem like an awful lot of initials and I did wonder about the Military Medal but wasn't sure.
Jen
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No problem...I had seen it under awards, for previous searches...otherwise I'd not have known myself. Sorry to interrupt the thread, tho! Carry on!! :) J.J.
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Arthur Caunce for Rosedale.
This was a beautifully clear one. The second one shows how big the panel is, through the archway.
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Unfortunately, Arthur Cornelius for Cristobel was very faint and difficult to get a clear shot. One which I hope you can make out.
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Hi
..I've been following this awesome thread and can imagine the emotions experienced by some of you out there seeing these inscriptions immortalising your relatives and friends . I just want to say should anyone want any help regarding seeing the inscription more clearly as Jen mentions on the latest one I'm more that happy to do it and email or post a copy ... Just pm me .. Jen You really have a heart of gold doing all this ...plus I might add a very organised tidy mind ... You must have made copious notes to keep track of all these pics and their locations .. Thanks for all your hard work ..
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Thanks Poll, that is a kind offer.
Back to a clearer one now, plus a shot which gives you an idea of the sheer size of each panel. This one is Ernest Riddiough for julieriddiough.
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Private B Fox, for TF13
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Here is 2nd Lieutenant Schloss for BettyofKent
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Isaac Ebbs for julieriddiough
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And the last of the Menin Gate names:
Joseph Marsay for julieriddiough
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By the time we had found all the names on the Menin Gate, the rain had found us again and it continued to follow us around for the rest of the day.
We headed out of Ieper to Menin Road South Cemetery, where we found Private P Hibberd for davidrigg3 This was a smallish cemetery and he was tucked away in the furthest corner, as shown on the long shot.
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:'( :'(
Well Jen, what can I say - Ive been sat here for about 35mins trying to think what to write??
I think what you have achieved in getting all the photos requested is quite amazing, I'm lost for words.
Thank you sooooo much for doing this for me and for the others - if you need anything looking up or tracking down in Surrey anytime - just let me know.
:-* :-* :-*
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if you need anything looking up or tracking down in Surrey anytime - just let me know.
:-* :-* :-*
Oh dear - you might regret that offer! One of my biggest brick walls is in that part of the world. One day, when I have finished this thread, I might just take you up on the offer!
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;D ;D
Well I'll do my best - you've already inspired me to track down a War grave that someone on the Sussex board has been waiting 2 years to get. I've got all the details written down and ready to go next time we have a day trip to Brighton.
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Jen, like davidrigg3 I've been wondering what to write.
Thank you hardly seems adequate. It means a great deal to me have the pictures of Lionel's name.
I'm amazed you managed to find the time to fulfill all the requests, it was quite a list. I'll continue to read this wonderful thread, it's so moving.
Again, very many thanks for the photos.
Have a wonderful Christmas, you deserve it.
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Betty
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I'm just happy to have been able to do it. And have no doubts - I thoroughly enjoyed myself, thoug it seems strange to say that.
But finding my own three family names was more moving than I thought it would be, especially James Shaw Howe. I have been looking at his military records and I now know that he had a shrapnel wound to his head but lived for four days after it happened. I've also been looking at two of his brothers, who also joined the Australian army, in spite of being Sottish by birth and merchant sailors by profession! These two survived and went back to Australia, though I think, from his records, that one must have been either a gas victim or suffered severe shell shock as he is described as being " Not quite right in the head, after the war" and he died a pauper at quite a young age. It makes you think that it wasn't only those who died who need our sympathy.
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I'll certainly second that ...
... and I MUST go to the Somme one day and see the war graves for myself ....
... perhaps next year or the one after ...
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I'm certainly going back. It was too much for my brain to take in on one short trip and there is so much more to see.
Here is Walter Ralph and Perth Cemetery for Linda_J On the longer shot, his is the fourth grave from the left, against the wall.
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Maybe its time we had a RootsChat trip ?
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What a good idea. Are you going to organise it?
The next place after Perth Cemetery was Tyne Cot, which is one of those places which is utterly impossible to comprehend. The huge numbers of graves, many of which were just "A soldier of the Great War" or "Known unto God", plus the wall at the back with yet more thousands of names of unfound casualties.
Being the biggest of its type, there is a massive car park and a Visitor Centre with photographs, audio visual displays, artefacts belonging to soldiers, some found in the area after the war, others donated by families and including letters, medals, pieces of uniform etc.
As I walked down the path from the car park, I was aware of a quiet voice, which seemed to be coming from absolutely nowhere. It was a woman's voice, almost monotonous and it just went on and on and on.....
.....until, when I got into the Visitor Centre, I found that one of the displays was an ever changing screen, with photographs of servicemen who had died. As each one came up, the quiet, sad voice gave his name and his age and then moved on to the next, never stopping, never changing tone. I was, for some time, rooted to the spot as dozens of young men appeared and disappeared. I'm not sure over what period of time but it gave the name of a soldier who had died on every day of the week and month and I suspect, if I had stayed longer, for the whole of 1917 at least.
An old woman, on another screen, talked about how her childhood had been stolen from her when she and the other six and seven year olds were confronted with a truck load of gas victims and were made to go around them trying to get them to drink milk. "What childhood", she said, " I was never a child." ( I think it was here that I saw this film - it might have been in Poperinge, I have lost track, a little, of some of the museums - but what does it matter, the message was what was important )
There were short pieces of film showing horses literally drowning in the mud, whilst men tried to pull them free. And of men in the trenches, alive, injured and dead. Men trying to push and pull huge pieces of artillery and watching helplessly as tanks became completely bogged down.
This wasn't an easy place to be and I was relieved when at the end of the photographic displays, there was a much more recent and uplifting one, of some of the last veterans, including Harry Patch, visiting the centre a few years ago.
I have lots of photographs of the actual cemetery to follow.
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Tyne Cot.
The date on the cross, 4th October 1917, was the day after my great uncle, fighting with the Australian army, was wounded. I would love to know where he was but the very knowledgeable man in Talbot House said that he was almost certainly at Passchaendale.
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Some more general ones of Tyne Cot
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Here is Private McKinstry for KHP
It is very unclear - you might need to enlist Poll's help for improving it. The New Zealand Division has an apse to itself, so I'm including some photographs of that to go with Private McKinstry.
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And one more of the NZ apse:
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And the last couple for tonight. Private Fred Walton for xpq194z
Again, quite faint. The stone on these walls is very light coloured and the names don't stand out terribly well. But he is there.
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Jen - these are marvellous and I repeat, you are a STAR.
Maggie
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Hi Jen
Thank you for the heads up on this thread.
I am so pleased you managed to find the time to get me the picture of Cecil (Sapper Wolstencrofts) grave. Many many thanks.
One day I'd like to go over myself, but it will be a while and I'm sure you can't get an idea of the scale of loss unless you've been.
Thank you again, from both myself and Cecil Barrow Wolstencroft :-*
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Jen, sitting here very emotional ...... thinking of my ancestor and all the NZer's that lost their lives, plus all the others that you have posted.
Thank you so much for taking them and for letting us ride along in cyber space with your journey.
I will certainly take up Polls suggeston, so Poll if you are reading this you have my go ahead.
You are a star, gone out of your way and gone the extra mile to show us our ancestors resting place.
KHP :-* :-* :-*
PS, I will PM Poll as well
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Thank you so much Jen. I had missed the new thread which is why I didn't say thank you earlier.
You have done a wonderful marvelous job. Thank you again so much.
I can't wait for Hubby to get home so I can show him
Cheers Ted
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Hi Jen
Thank you so very much for taking the photos of Walter Ralph.
I agree with BettyofKent and others, a “thank you” just does not adequately express how deeply thankful we all must be for your time an effort.
You did such a fantastic job in finding and photographic all of the requests, you deserve a medal.
Again many many thanks
Linda
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Hi This is for Kiwi.. Please pm me with an email address and I'll email you the bigger versions for printing .. I dont want to intrude on this thread with any enhanced versions but just to show that I can change the perspective on the panels that are higher up if required and make them appear rectangular . If anyone needs help on the one or two fainter versions just pm me .. I've used the lighting to focus gently on the area that includes the name especially pertinent to KP tis entirely optional takes seconds to add it or remove it ..
Once again Genjen ... You have been extremely generous with your time and dedication for this cause .. and the photos have been outstanding in their quality and composition .. Hats off to you ! :)
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Wow ........ sure makes a difference, what patience and talent you have.
PM on the way.
Cheers
KHP
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Thank you for all your lovely comments. I have sent a PM to Poll about enhance photos because I would like to be able to see what is possible with the less clear ones. But have suggested that if they are going on to this thread, it might be at the end, if that's ok with everyone. I have quite a few more to add yet!
I'm going to finish the Tyne Cot section with one taken outside the cemetery gates. It had rained heavily and although not constantly, it was plainly enough to recreate the field conditions of 1917. Here is some Flanders mud. Imagine having to live, eat, sleep and fight in this.
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By the time we had finished at Tyne Cot, my camera had decided to die, so the last shot - of the mud - and the next couple of graves, were taken on my partner's camera.
It was still only about midday, though we had already seen and done quite a lot. From Tyne Cot, we went to the Passchendaele Museum at Zonnebeke, where there were more harrowing and moving scenes and exhibits, including a reconstruction of a dug-out, which showed the cramped and unpleasant conditions in which men had to live. You can read about it on: http://www.passchendaele.be/
We went back into Ypres, where we visited Ypres Reservoir Cemetery, which is actually in the town. Here is Henry Baldwin for kerryb
On the longer shot photograph, his grave is on the second row.
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Thank you so much Jen, very much appreciated.
The cemetery really is in the centre of town, I wonder how many people rush by each day and ever stop to give these boys a thought.
After reading this thread and seeing all the photos I really want to visit myself one day.
Kerry
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So, with a camera which needed a re-charged battery and clothes which needed drying out, we went back to the hotel, had a quick change and then back out to the Cloth Hall museum in the main square. It is hard to believe that Ieper was totally destroyed during the war years and that all the beautiful and apparently ancient buildings are, in fact, reconstructions. The Cloth Hall is magnificent and testimony to the people of Belgium that they weren't prepared to put up with some modern replacement of this beautiful town but wanted it back to how it had once been.
Sorry, no photographs - it was another of those occasions when I just wanted to take it all in and by now the afternoon was rapidly disappearing, so we took this last couple of hours to go around at our own pace. On arriving at the museum, we were each given a small card with a name and bar code on it and at intervals around the museum, there were computers which, when the card was inserted, gave a detailed history of the person on the card and how they spent the war. I was a woman who had already emigrated to America before the outbreak of war but who came back, with her brothers, to serve her country. She survived and went back to America where she lived to a ripe old age. My partner's character was not so happy. He served throughout the war years and died, weeks before the end of the conflict.
This was a museum which needs re-visiting. The exhibits were wonderful and terrible. The sound effects were truly terrifying, especially the shell which exploded as I was quietly reading some piece of information. One was enough for me - how every one of those poor men didn't suffer shell-shock is an absolute mystery.
At another point, I was looking at another exhibit when I became aware of the fact that I was reciting, along with the audio-visual display behind me, one of Wilfred Owen's war poems. I studied these for A level English, a very long time ago and was amazed to find that this particular poem was still very firmly in my head. Although his writing style never appealed to me ( too much use of alliteration for me), the subject matter was always one which I found compelling, even as a shallow, self-obsessed teenager.
So that is the end of the second day. Mercifully, we didn't have to eat in the ludicrously expensive restaurant again as the little bistro by the Menin Gate was open. If you are going to Ieper and want a simple but very well prepared meal, at a sensible price, can I recommend Poppies, which in spite of its touristy name proved to be more than acceptable.
I'm not sure when I will get to posting Day 3 - I have a very busy weekend ahead of me. But if your photograph hasn't appeared yet, don't panic - it will be here eventually.
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Kerry - all of the cemeteries we visited were beautifully tended and extremely peaceful. The important thing seemed to me that there was no sign of any graffiti, litter or deliberate damage of any sort. I think that although people might not visit the graves, the cemeteries are respected and the good citizens of Ieper are hardly allowed to forget -what with the main road out of town coming to a total standstill every night of the year!
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I have only just found this thread and it is totally,totally amazing!
My great uncle Bernard was a stretcher bearer and was shot while carrying a stretcher. I've often wondered about the amount of courage it must have took to walk out into no mans land,unarmed,not knowing what was waiting there for you and the answer is of course that Bernard and all these men possessed the most amazing courage.
A thank you doesn't seem enough to say to you Jen but that is all I can say so "thank you"! But you can have some of these because you deserve them; :-* :-* :-*
Tony
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GenJen, What a lovely person you are for doing this for everyone. I, like everyone else reading this thread am astounded by your kindness.
Thank You.
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gen what a wonderful thing you have done :-*
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I just thought I would pop back and mention that I've started to look into the other men that are on the panel with Bernard. Some of these men must have been friends so I think it's important, to me anyway, to try and find out something about their lifes and deaths. I'm going to be on the Australian War Memorial site a lot methinks!!!
I wouldn't have been able to do this without your photo so thanks again Jen :) and I'm really looking forward to hearing about the rest of your journey!
Tony
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I agree, Tony, that finding out about others on the panels would be a really interesting thing to do. I also thought that someone else in here just might come across something, or someone, relevant to their own family, which is why I included some of the larger shots.
I'll be back with more, probably tomorrow some time.
Jen
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Jen, we've got a distant Canadian relative in the cemetery at Sunken Road Cemetery, Contalmaison ... would he also have been named on one of the panels ? Or is it just those with no known burial place ??
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The Menin Gate and Thiepval memorial are for those whose bodies were never found, or identified, so if he has a grave, he will not be on a panel. I was so close to there - went through Contalmaison. If only I had known.
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Its OK ... grand-daughter went to the war graves on a school trip ... she was the only one in the class who had someone buried there, so the whole party went to that cemetery (and others !)
She took the photo's ... which I've sent on to the Canadian side of the family ...
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Hi Everyone,
My hubby had an idea that I think is wonderful. He suggested if we have photos of the people Jen found graves and memorials for, we should post them so we can all see who they really were.
So this is my hubbys Great Uncle John Henry Freeman who Jen found on the Menin Gate for us
Cheers Ted
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What a wonderful idea, and another two ideas from me. Following visits to various cemeteries in Flanders and on the Somme, I contacted the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and congratulated them on the state of the cemeteries, all so wonderfully maintained. I am sure it is a great comfort to all of us that those who gave their lives for us are now being looked after so well. CWGC were pleased to know that their endeavours had been recognised. And if anyone has photographs of those commemmorated at Thiepval, you can submit them, along with other personal details, to the Thiepval Memorial Visitor Centre database, where they can be viewed by visitors. I have an e-mail address for anyone interested in doing so (at least I hope it is still valid as I used it in 2005) ::)
BumbleB
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The photographs are a great idea Ted. It makes it all so much more real and I'd be delighted to know what these people looked like. I found three of my own but have a photograph of only one of them. This is Ernest Cooper Smith, always known as Cooper, whose name is also on the Menin Gate.
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My busy weekend is over now so I can't carry on with my trip and your photographs.
The third day had a packed agenda and quite a bit of travelling but I had it ever so carefully planned and was pretty sure we could fit all the remaining places in before we headed off for the other aspect of our holiday, in Auxerre. It was a good thought, whilst it lasted!
Our first stop was at Huts Cemetery, which isn't far from Ieper, where we found Harry Sampson Richards for Cristobel
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The last of the cemeteries in the Ieper area was Tancrez Farm at Ploegsteert. The directions were clear enough and with only about ten kilometres between it and the previous one, we thought that we would be well on our way to the next area before it got anywhere near lunch time. Our first problem came with the road works and the diversions, which took us all over the place. The second was the weather which. having been slightly iffy since we arrived, now became truly hideous, with rain so heavy that it was almost impossible to see the road, let alone look for the green cemetery signs, of which there were many but none of them ours!
So we ended up driving up and down the road through Ploegsteert until eventually we spotted the tell-tale cross and a few grave stones, hidden away behind a relatively modern house. It was a tiny cemetery and having found it we had no problem in then finding Cyril Oates for mrspeel
As you can see from the second one, it really is more like someone's back garden.
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We were now heading south, with Thiepval as our main aim of the day but hoping to visit four cemeteries on the way and one final one afterwards.
I hadn't really taken on board the fact that Merville cemetery was more than just war garves. The clue was in the name Merville Communal Cemetery but I obviously hadn't thought very hard about it. So finding a large town cemetery with several sections of war graves in it was very different from all of the others we had seen. There was still the book, giving a plan and reference details but it was less easy to follow because of the non CWG sections.
Here is Private Robert Willis, for delphi8
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Well done Jen.
It is really important that as many of us as possible should visit a war grave cemetery.
I visited the graves at Monte Cassino recently. I have to say that as soon as I saw the lines of well maintained head stones I was immediately moved to tears. To see the names and ages of men from my own home town really did strike home the need for these men never to be forgotten. The rows of headstones also included many carved with the Star of David . I never appreciated how many Jewish soldiers from Lancashire were killed in the battle.
I also visited the German graves and noted that they are maintained by German school children who come every year as part of a school remembrance scheme.
The one thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history.
James
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We were now in Pas de Calais region and our next stop was Philosophe British Cemetery at Mazingarbe. I have just noticed that there are distinct signs of dampness on the camera lense on one of the next photographs. Sorry about that but we had by now abandoned the road atlas because what we knew was that wherever the heaviest rain clouds were would inevitably be the direction in which we were travelling.
Here is John Lovatt Knight for millymcb
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The rows of headstones also included many carved with the Star of David . I never appreciated how many Jewish soldiers from Lancashire were killed in the battle.
James
We noticed this too James and found it especially poignant to see so many grave stones, for men with different religions, standing side by side.
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The next cemetery was interesting as, until we got there and with the ref: Callonne Mill Cem Mem, we weren't sure what we were looking for. Obviously a memorial within a graveyard but was I looking for a wall with names on?
This is what we found. Private Young for davidrigg3 I have included the memorial stone.
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Absolutely wonderful Jen ! .... makes your heart go "boom" doesn't it ?
Thank you for sharing these brave soldiers and your terrific photos !
Annie :)
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It was now into the afternoon and at last we saw signs of the rain stopping. there was even some sun coming through as we came past Bapaume. Because we had had a little difficulty finding one or two places and because the morning's road works weren't the only ones which held us up, I was beginning to think I might be being a little over ambitious with my plans. But my partner said no, we should carry on to Flers before Thiepval - it wasn't so very far off the road. And in this case, the instructions were clear and accurate so although the Flers Cemetery is actually well off the main roads, it was quite easy to find. And the puddle outside the gate wasn't so very deep, after all!
Private Embleton for cavvytri
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And so to Thiepval. The memorial is clearly visible from a distance and I think that I have probably been past it before, without realising exactly what it was. An amazing structure with over seventy two thousand names of missing soldiers from the Somme region. Most of them died in 1916, in the space of a few months. It is another of those statistics which is absolutely beyond comprehension. There are some general photographs as well as your family members' names, some of which might be in need of some of Poll's expertise on the restoration front.
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Jen, I have been following this thread. You have done an amazing job.
No wonder everyone is so pleased with the pics.
A gentleman in France kindly took a photo of my Uncles grave in Laventie Cemetery and I know how emotional and grateful I felt when I received it.
I am sure that everyone else feels the same way.
It is so kind of you.
Have a very Happy Christmas,you deserve it.
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Thank you Kesannah. It's nearly finished now - only a few to go.
Here is Private Wharmby for davidrigg3
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William Toft for millymcb
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Private W W Parkin for Copperbeech25
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Lance Corporal Leonard Harrison for sugill
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Private Peter Roy for K44ENF
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Some more general photos from Thiepval. It was bitterly cold by now and most of the other visitors were leaving but again, for a cold November afternoon, I was amazed at how many people had been there.
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Two more to finish
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Hi genjen,
I have been holding back my thanks 'till the end. Thank you so much for bringing these people alive, and by association, all of the others. :)
Paul
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As you can see from the last photograph, it was quite late in the afternoon by now but we knew that Flat Iron Copse ought to be within striking distance and that we should just about get to this, the last cemetery on the list, in time to find the grave before it was dark.
Mametz it said and being too clever for my own good, I decided to take a short cut. It was nowhere to be found around Mametz. The CWCG directions also said 10k east of Albert, which would, in fact, be beyond Mametz, but on the D929, which is actually north of Albert, not east. For the next hour we drove up and down, going into villages and out the other side, stopping at every green sign, re-reading the directions and getting precisely nowhere. It grew darker and darker and we knew that we had at least an hour of travelling before stopping for the night on our way to Auxerre, which is quite considerably south of Paris. Eventually, feeling thoroughly disheartened and disappointed at failing at the very last one, we decided that there was nothing more we could do so, reluctantly, we gave up. I know how flat I was feeling but had no idea that my partner had also become so very involved in the efforts to find all of your relatives. We consoled ourselves with knowing that we had found at least one grave or memorial for everyone who had asked.
(I did, at this point, send a text message to Lydart, asking if she could check the CWCG directions but she has had a new phone, so didn't get my message.)
We spent Friday night in a cheap and cheerful hotel at St. Quentin, then drove down to Auxerre. The hotel there had wi-fi so I spent some time checking and carefully re-writing out the directions to Flat Iron Copse. Maybe, if we were very lucky we could get there on our way back to Calais.
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Jen, I am just floored by the amount that you managed to do in a few days. Thank you so very, very much for these pictures. I have been in the pas de Calais area and was astounded to see so many graveyards, including little ones all over the place that, as you say, looked like someone's back garden. At the time, I had no idea that relatives of mine had been left there.
I am sorry that I don't have a photograph of Peter Roy to post. That would have been nice.
Thank you so much, Jen. Obviously, if you need a photograph of anything in the central Scotland area, you only have to ask. :-*
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Thank you Paul. As you can see, I am not quite finished but the end is in sight.....
Sunday morning, having driven two hundred miles and more on Saturday for a stunningly good meal in our favourite restaurant in France, we had breakfast in a very rainy and miserable Auxerre and set off for the long drive back to Calais.
The weather was dreadful for most of the way, which in some respects was a good thing because we weren't even remotely tempted to do anything other than drive. We got back into the Albert area some time mid-afternoon and this time followed the CWCG directions really carefully. The directions said that we should take the right turn at the Y junction off the D929 at the 102nd Infantry Brigade Memorial. I think there have been road changes - there is no Y juction. But it also said head for Bazentin-le-Petit, so we did. At the D20 T junction, turn right and the cemetery is sign-posted immediately.....No it isn't!
But having got this close, there was no way we were not going to find it and eventually, my partner spotted, in the distance and yes, next to a small area of woodland, which the name would lead you to expect, a smallish cemetery, with the tell-tale CWCG cross clearly visible.
Fingers crossed, we headed towards it and suddenly, there was the green sign, telling us that this was indeed our final target.
As we drove up the single track road and on to what was little more than a dirt track, we saw men in the woods along side us carrying guns and when we got out of the car, there were sounds of shooting all around us. Ok, on that Sunday afternoon, it will have been pigeons or some other small creatures whose lives were being threatened and cut short but it did make me stop and wonder how it must have felt when the gun shots were directed at all of those young men.
So here, for delphi8, at the end of an extraordinary few days, is Albert James Fordham, Private 11429. Middlesex Regiment.
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Sorry Jen ... I'll PM you my new phone number (when I find it ::) )
I spend several holidays during and after my student days in the Pas de Calais, and to my utter shame, I NEVER knew all those cemeteries were so near ... DEFINITELY got to go there ... but think I'll make the trip in the summer months !
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Thank you so much for the photo. Sorry you had such bad weather.
Best regards,
Sue
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And the cemetery which tried to elude us.... Flatiron Copse.
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My grand-daughter remarked that although they visited about six cemeteries, they never saw anyone mowing or tidying the flowers ... yet all were immaculate ...
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We did see people working in some of them, though it will have been just clearing leaves for the most part, at this time of year.
Heavens, what am I going to do now? I feel like a person with no purpose!! Quick someone find me a project........
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You've done yourself proud Jen.
What a journey, your kindness and generosity of spirit has moved everyone to tears.
Well done you !!
Pels.
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Start organising a RootsChat trip to the war graves for next summer ?? Bus hire costs, hotel costs, restaurants you'd recommend ...
... get to it !! I'll come ...
... and Pels, don't you think we ought to give/nominate Jen for some sort of RootsChatter of the Year award ??
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I'll second that Lydart :) :)
Although, as far as I know I didn't lose any relatives in the War, I did have some who fought and were taken prisoner or injured. This has been a fantastic thread to follow Jen, thank you.
Get organising that trip :D :D
Jan
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Pels, don't you think we ought to give/nominate Jen for some sort of RootsChatter of the Year award ??
To be honest .. yes, without any shadow of doubt.
Initially it was an awesome undertaking, especially when everyone starting coming forward.
But .. she did it and we all should feel extremely proud of her !!
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Ok, ok....now please can we stop?
It's either that or I won't ever do it again!! And that really would spoil my fun. ::)
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Jen I am amazed, a huge thankyou from me for going to so much trouble to locate and take the photos of Robert Willis and Albert Fordham's graves, both great great uncles of mine. It means such a lot to see them, you are a star for doing so much for everyone.
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Hi Jen,
FANTASTIC work on behalf of Private WW Parkin, and myself. Thank you so much it is so lovely to see his entry on the Thiepval memorial.
You really are a wonderful person, and a huge thank you from me.
Very best wishes,
Copperbeech5
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Thanks so much for the pictures - absolutely fantastic to see them...especially the headstone for J L Knight. You've done a great job for everyone...
Milly :)
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I'm going to miss this thread. It has been so moving to follow your journey, Jen, - the pictures and they way you have presented all the information are amazing.
And yes - you certainly deserve that award :) :)
Maggie
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Thank you, thank you, thank you! We have a photo somewhere of Cyril Oates' grave from when he was first buried, with a white wooden cross, but I don't think anyone in our family has ever seen the actual grave site or stone. I can't tell you how much your efforts are appreciated, or how fascinating I have found this whole thread.
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Hello,
I've been away for several days and came home to find this wonderful diary of your trip. It's a great read.
Genjen, I am really grateful that you were able to photograph my two requests - one at Menin Gate and the other at The Huts Cemetery just out of Iper, for Harry Sampson Richards my great uncle. Being on the other side of the world, I'll probably never get to visit the war graves in France and surrounding areas, so it is wonderful that I have the photos, thanks to your kindness. And the photos were so good - you have captured the cemeteries really well - great photography on your part. :D
You must have worked out your itinerary with great precision to fit in so much in such a short space of time.
Now I'm going to re-read this thread slowly and take it all in. Apart from the photos all the extra information you provided gives your story 'atmosphere'.
Thanks so much, Cheers, Chris ;D
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Thank you once again Jen, and thanks also to your partner who obviously was very much involved and supportive.
I too will miss this thread, it has been quite a journey for us all, and you not the least. Unfortunately I don't possess photos of any of the men for whom you got pictures for me - that's why your excellent photos mean so much, they're all I have.
I hope you have a wonderful Christmas and Happy New Year,
with much love and thanks, B :-*
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It's the spirit of what has happened here that I found so heartwarming and uplifting . The ripples of random acts of kindness like this spread far and wide ....T'is a beautiful thing to behold ...
I know Jen's becoming increasingly embarrassed by the accolades( bless ) so maybe the best way to thank her may be to pay it forward , as many people do in Genealogy... this hobby / past time / obsession we have.
With all the doom and gloom forecast both economically an environmentally ... it's reassuring to know there are still lots of good , kind and wonderful things happening before our eyes ....
...so I'm enjoying looking at my glass and seeing it is half full ...
Thanks for a wonderful thread Jen :-X ;D
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Fortunately I didn't lose any close relatives in the Great War so had no reason to ask Jen for a photo of a grave but I watched with mounting alarm as the number of requests grew & grew! I thought, 'she'll never be able to fulfill all those requests'. Well, you proved me wrong ;) What a fantastic job you did, Jen. I've so enjoyed reading your little travelogue and I can see how much joy you've brought to so many people :)
Your selfless act embodies the true spirit of genealogy and Rootschat and will surely inspire others to go that extra mile when helping others.
jane
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Poll, that's lovely, thanks.
And what a good plan - If you have enjoyed this thread and if the opportunity arises, do something to help another Rootschatter. I am always amazed and delighted at the willingness to help with brick walls, tricky questions, damaged photographs and the rest. I have had so much help with various members of my family and I know that I will be back, asking for more in the future.
So really, it's Trystan we should be thanking, for giving us this amazing place! ;D ;D
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For those who would like a wreath etc. laid on a CWGC grave/memorial; this company can organise it if the cemetery is included in any of their tours:
http://www.poppytravel.org.uk
I did check with our roving Rootschatter before posting. :)
Nanny Jan
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Another useful link, especially for KarenM and davidrigg3, but also for anyone with a family member in Lijssenthoek Cemetery;
www.lijssenthoek.be
They are wanting as much information on the soldiers buried in this cemetery as a new visitor centre is planned to open in about three years time.
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HI Jen.
What a excellent job.you have done.even if my
fred walton sadly was very faint.it does not take away your effort on behalf of other people. they must be really pleased. your stirling work .was outstanding.
mike
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Mike ... dont forget that PollDoll has kindly offered to improve any feint pictures ... just PM her ...
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Hi... This is just a very small version I did alongside just an enhancement of the stone and lettering for KP.
This version is just something I tried for KP as being suitable to frame maybe .. The version posted here is tiny for Rootschat but the version Kp has will print 7x5 inches. Please pm me with your email address if you want me to do anything to help with your pic ... I'd be happy to as Lydart says ...
Poll
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Wow, Poll, that's fantastic. I might have to send you my two Smiths from the Menin Gate, so you can have a play with them too.
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I'd be happy to Jen ... :)
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Wonderful.
Thank You.
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Wonderful.
Thank You.
Yes, Wonderful.... and very moving too...
Thank you for your photos and your paragraphs....
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Amazing thread - well done, Jen!
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Jen
A truly wonderful thread and amazing pictures, you have a way with words and I have enjoyed following your story. God bless you.
Crystal
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well done a great post enjoyed reading it
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Fab work Jen, its been a lovely and inspiring thread to read :) I'm so glad you had a wonderful time.
I'm going back to Belgium soon, in January all going well, it was supposed to be December but my bank account said no. So if I may (nearer the time) I'd like to 'pay it forward' for you. I can't be as generous as Jen (as I'm dragging a toddler with me and only going for a long weekend), but I'll list the cemetaries and memorials I'm going to (on a new thread) and I'm happy to take photos for those who would like it.
Tx
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That's wonderful Sparkle,
We could get an awful lot done this way! Look forward to your new thread. :)
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What a very kind offer *sparkle*, to give time to this and whilst with a toddler in tow. There really are some wonderful and thoughtful people on RootsChat.
Well done Jen. Although to my knowledge I'm fortunate to have no rellies who died in France & Belgium, it has been an inspiring read from beginning to end.
Maggie
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It no bother at all. I wish I asked when I went the first time at the end of October, but we only decided to go about 10am and we were on the boat by 5pm! (we quite often go on last minute adventures!)
I've seen how much it meant to our family to pay our respects and bring photos back, so I'm keen to do it again.
Tx
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Have just read through this amazing thread and would just like to say what wonderful work you've done for everyone Jen, well done
Barbara :-*
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Arthur Caunce for Rosedale.
This was a beautifully clear one. The second one shows how big the panel is, through the archway.
Sorry I didn't see this sooner! I must have completely overlooked the topic.
The photos are amazing, so clear and what a lovely memorial :)
Thank you so much Jen! You're so kind.
With it being almost Christmas I probably wont get on so much now, so I'd better wish you all
have a wonderful Christmas & New Year.
Rosedale. :-*
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The bigger version of the photo that Poll did for me is fantastic .....I was blown away by it and in awe of Polls talents.
What a wonderful xmas present we have been given with all these photos of our ancestors.
Jen and Poll you are both wonderful people :-*
Cheers
KHP
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I mentioned that we had a photo of Cyril Oates' original grave marker (probably taken shortly after he died in May 1916) See Post 91 for Genjen's photo of the marker today. I'm attaching it (I hope) along with a photo of Cyril in uniform. He was in the King's Own Scottish Borderers, and died at the age of 19 years and 4 months. I thought some of you might be interested.
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The photograph of the cemetery is so sad. The wooden crosses look more personal, somehow. And how very young he looks. It's only when you see a photograph of someone that you stop and think, they were little more than children.
Thanks for sharing them.
Jen
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Thanks Poll, that is a kind offer.
Back to a clearer one now, plus a shot which gives you an idea of the sheer size of each panel. This one is Ernest Riddiough for julieriddiough.
Thank you sooooooo much, I have just got back on line after a house move and what a lovely surprise to find when i logged back in you are a star.
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Believe it or not, I knew nothing of this thread until today... ::) :-[ :-[ :-[
What an absolute wonder you have be to do all these pics...Amazing
I have been a couple of times, and will be across later this year for both an event at Zonnebeke and another at Fromelles.
If the proposed RC Trip comes off I'd be happy to provide notes etc for where ever you land up
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I have given my great uncle's details to the Lyssenthoek Project and am hoping he might be one of the men who is featured in their calendar when the new visitor centre opens - I think next year. They have said they will let me know. There are eleven thousand men in Lyssenthoek Cemetery, so it's a bit of a long shot but how many people will submit their ancestor's details??
When the visitor centre opens, I shall be going back, whether or not he is a featured soldier.
Am not sure whether a RC trip will ever materialise. I certainly don't have time at the moment to organise it but if anyone else wants to take it on, I'd certainly be interested in going along. Please can it not be in the winter - I almost joined those poor men in having trench foot, in November!
I am planning another brief visit to The Somme region, in June and if I think I have time to do more photographs, will start a new thread. But it would be much more specific as I'm really only passing through on my way home from Provence. :)
Jen :)
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Oooh would be great if someone took it on...As for "Immersion Foot" dont worry...I'll do the Med Cover! ;D
(And in period kit if required!! But not period dressings... ;) )
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Oooh would be great if someone took it on...As for "Immersion Foot" dont worry...I'll do the Med Cover! ;D
(And in period kit if required!! But not period dressings... ;) )
Ohhhhhhh, thank goodness for that, for a minute you had me worried!! :o :o
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Barbara !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Your mind obviously works like mine !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Oooh would be great if someone took it on...As for "Immersion Foot" dont worry...I'll do the Med Cover! ;D
(And in period kit if required!! But not period dressings... ;) )
Ohhhhhhh, thank goodness for that, for a minute you had me worried!! :o :o
Barbara !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Your mind obviously works like mine !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Well really! What a pair you make, to be sure! ;D
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;D ;D
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Period....Of the era, original.... ie almost 100yrs old...
::) ::)
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It was the thought of the dressings of the period (era) ........rather primitive I would have thought. ;D
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Only the outer wrapping and the material changed of British Army issue Shell Dressings....Nothing else did until last year...And old stocks are still being used
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Only the outer wrapping and the material changed of British Army issue Shell Dressings....Nothing else did until last year...And old stocks are still being used
::) ;D ::)
So they use last century's left overs ;)
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You wouldn't believe what came out of the stores before we went to Iraq...
Pillows dated 1942, shell dressing bags of 1941, canvas buckets, Millbank Bags, all sorts...And all WW2.... Didnt find any WW1 dated stuff though...Mind you...My collection grew quite well at that point!!!
This was for a front line regular medical unit :o :o :o
And who says we didnt go prepared with all the right kit into Iraq...?? ::)
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I found this amazing thread by accident and was so touched by Genjen's act of human kindness and thought it should be shared with those who missed it the first time around.
A fitting tribute to a few of the many men who paid the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom.
Great work Genjen.
Carol