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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: outback_thunda on Thursday 26 November 09 04:17 GMT (UK)
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Hi there, i am looking for relatives of richard napoleon wycomb townsend reece. His mother was annie adelaide marddrah whom married a reece then a townsend. Originated from the binalong area but not necessary to say this is where i can find the info. If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
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Hi outback_thunda, and welcome to Rootschat :)
I live at Murrumbateman, not a million miles from Binalong ;)
Can you give us a time period please, and tell us what kind of information you are after? Do you want ancestry, descendants, siblings...
You will get plenty of help from Rootschatters but we need to know what it is you're after, and what information you already have (so we don't double up and research what you already know!)
Cheers
Prue
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Hi Outback_thunda,
Adding MOI welcome too.
Possibly your chap lived in NSW, as on the NSW BDM index there's a REECE, Richard Napoleon W T aged 77 years who died at Tamworth in 1948. The reference number is 24247/1948.
If you want the certificate, may I suggest you go for a transcript... these are quicker and much cheaper and can be sent by email to you... I'll modify this post shortly with the link for info about transcripts :D
MODIFY to add the rootschat thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
Many Cheers,
JM
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There is an online family tree that should be publicly available (i.e. not to just subscribers), which shows details of these people:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07jq/
This tree has your man as "Wychomb Napoleon TOWNSEND" and he shows up in the NSW BDM index registered in Warialda in 1871:
TOWNSEND, Whycombe Napoleon R.
Father - William. Mother - Annie Adelaide.
Registration number: 18834/1871
I won't do anything further until we hear back from you about what it is you're after :)
Cheers
Prue
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not sure if this is what your after:
Rego Numer:37023
Year: 1905
Name: Richard H REECE
Father:RICHARD N W
Mother: MARY J
Place: QUIRINDI
Death:
Rego Number:24247
Year: 1948
Name: Richard Napoleon Wycomb Townsend REECE
Age: 77 YRS TAMWORTH
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Here is the first marriage opf Ann(i)e
2834/1861 Isaac REECE to Annie A MARDDRAH; marriage registered at Scone.
One child to this couple
1863 Flora REECE, father Isaac, mother Anne, (reg 13447)
Isaac REECE died in Mudgee, 1872 (reg 4989)
Couldn't see a marriage for Annie and Edward TOWNSEND in NSW but there are all these births with father Edward Townsend. All the mothers are listed as Annie BUT I wonder if the ones born in Braidwood, Queanbeyan and Newtown are for a different couple, as the others all show the mother as Annie A or Annie Adelaide, and are in the north of NSW - also two of these registrations are the same year which is less likely in my opinion.
1871 Whycome Napoleon R TOWNSEND
father: William, mother Annie Adelaide Warialda Reg 18834
1872 Mary Elizabeth TOWNSEND
father: William, mother Annie, Braidwood Reg 7716
1874 Annie Amelia R TOWNSEND
father: William, mother Annie A, Tamworth Reg 19592
1876 Sophia TOWNSEND
father: William, mother Annie Adelaide Nundle Reg 17465
1877 Frederick William TOWNSEND
father: William, mother Annie, Queanbeyan Reg 19447
1880 Albert Ernest J TOWNSEND
father: William, mother Annie Adelaide, Walcha Reg 9297
1884 Edward TOWNSEND
father: William, mother Annie, Newtown Reg 7892
1884 Florence M TOWNSEND
father: William, mother Annie A, Glen Innes, Reg 19145
1887 Elizabeth TOWNSEND
father: William, mother Annie, Braidwood reg16860
Cheers, Judith
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Wow, thank you for your help guys.....Im stoked at how much information yous seem to have gathered in such a short time. I already have that same information. Where I am stuck is that I can't seem to find any further information on the following.:
I have Richard N W Townsend born as that in 1871
I have him as death 1948 Tamworth.
I also have his mother after much search as Annie Adelaide Marddrah, 1st marriage Isaace Reec
2nd Marriage as William Townsend...obviously the father of Richard Townsend......(WHy he change dhis name to Reece beats me but I will probably never know that.LOL)
I know the mother of Annie Adelaide Is Helen....maybe Bearcroft or similar yet fathers name is supposedly Jacob Steele.All this I have on certificate . but don't understand why Annie's surname is Marddrah and not matching that of either supposed parent. i can't find anything. Annie was born approx 1842 in Parramatta and I am unable to find a birth record for this anywhere. Her Death was 1893 in Emmaville. ANd my appologies it wasn't Binalong. It was Bingara. She was the First school teacher at Bingara.That was a fluke find on google.
If it was possible for any help with that to start with it would be greatley appreciated. I hope I haven't confused anyone. I have confused myself. hahah
Thanks Dianne
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New South Wales Electoral Roll
1903
REECE Mary Jane Narrabri Domestic Duties
REECE Richard Napoleon Wycome Narrabri Labourer
1930
REECE Mary Jane George Street Quirindi HD
REECE Richard Napolen Allnutt Street Quirindi Teamster
[Son William Walter also listed at George Street - see below]
1936, 1937
REECE Mary Jane 3 Macquarie Street, Tamworth HD
REECE Richard Napoleon Wicham 3 Macquarie Street, Tamworth Labourer
1943
REECE Mary Jane 21 Griffin Lane Tamworth HD
REECE Richard Napoleon Wickam 21 Griffin Lane Tamworth Labourer
I can't see a marriage for Richard N W to Mary Jane on the NSW indexes.
Births
23233/1903
REECE Nora M B
Father Richard Mother Mary J
District Narrabri
37023/1905
REECE Richard H
Father Richard N W Mother Mary J
District Quirindi
17994/1908
REECE William W
Father Richard N W Mother Mary J
District Quirindi
There are three possibilities for Mary Jane's death on NSW bdm.
Cheers
Cando
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Not sure about this death, but as usual, the info on the death cert only as good as the knowledge of the informant.
36269/1969
REECE William Walter
Father Richard Henry Mother Mary Jane
District Albury
Australian Electoral Roll
1930
REECE William Walter George Street Quirindi Labourer
[Listed with Mary Jane at same address and Richard N at Alnutt Street]
1943
REECE Constance Rose Woomargama Estate JD
REECE Wiliam Walter Woomargama Estate Herdsman
1954
REECE Constance Rose Kywamma HD
REECE William Walter Kywamma Albury Herdsman
Death
64131/1972
REECE Constance Rose
Father Alfred Mother Caroline Elizabeth
District Albury
Cheers
Cando
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Hi Dianne :)
If you haven't already, it would be worth chasing up the original record for Annie Adelaide's marriage to Isaac REECE. If you can see the handwriting, it might clear up what her surname really is. I doubt whether it's MARDDRAH - a web search for this produces no relevant hits at all.
I wonder where the information comes from about her being born in Parramatta to Helen BEARCROFT...which certificate is it that names her and Annie's father?
Added: MADDRAH (without the first R) does seem to be a surname - according to a website, it is/was found in Yorkshire:
http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Maddrah
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HI again, ummm the marriage certificate between Annie Adleiade and Isaac Reece. Im in luck. I recieved it today.
Here is what it sais. marriage date: 23rd Dec 1861 Scone
Isaace Reece and Annie Adelaide MARDDRAH
isaace born Sussex England
Annie Born: parramatta NSW
The consent of Helen Steel late MARDDRAH mother of the bride was given to the marriage of Annie adelaide MARDDRAH with Isaac Reece. for being under 21years.
Then at the bottom It asks for mother/father of groom then bride.
Groom mother: Frances Barnett Father: Isaace Reece
Bride Mother: helen Bearcroft
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OK, so Annie's mother was a MARDDRAH and later married someone called STEEL(E)...the fact that Annie is named MARDDRAH and that no father's name is given on the marriage cert indicates either that Helen's maiden name was MARDDRAH and she had Annie illegitimately, or (less likely) that Helen was married to someone named MARDDRAH who was the father of Annie, and he subsequently died and Helen remarried to Mr STEELE (less likely because one would assume that Helen and/or Annie would know his name and put it on the cert).
I can't find a marriage in NSW for a MADDRAH, MARDDRAH or BEARCROFT which would fit for Helen :-\
If she was single, I wonder if Helen was in the female factory at Parramatta when she had Annie?
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I wonder if this is a mistranscribed registration...their first child b. 1903
6616/1902
REEVES Richard W
CATLIN Mary J
District Dubbo
Birth
21276/1881
CATLIN Mary Jane
Father William George Mother Mary Jane
District Mudgee
Death...with one correct parent.
18939/1948
REECE Mary Jane
Father James Mother Mary Jane
District Chatswood.
All research assumptions until certs are sighted. You haven't indicated whether or not you want or even need this info.
Cando
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Perhaps this would be a relative
from http://www.ryersonindex.org/
William Weston REECE, late of BINGARA 11 March 1983 aged 72
Cheers,
JM
ADDING There's WW2 service records not yet digitised, indicating born Bingara 23 Mar 1910
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On a submitted tree there's
William Weston Reece as a child of Jacob Steele REECE and Margaret COLLINS. Jacob Steele Reece being a son of Isaac Reece and Annie Marddrah (spelling checked, same as noted already)... submitter notes Annie (no second name) as 19 on her marriage, 23 Dec 1861 at St Lukes, Scone NSW. Also submitter has Annie as born at Parramatta, daughter of Helen Bearcroft ... (again spelling checked, same as noted already on this thread)...
There's dates for these people, which match with the information already posted on this thread... ;).
JM
MODIFYING TO ADD Sorry for not indicating this earlier but the submitted tree mentioned in this post is NOT the same one as previously linked byhttp://www.rootschat.com/links/07jq/ ........
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The electoral rolls show many REECE's at Bingara - seven at one address including William Weston.
JM there are two William Weston's. One born 1885 [son of Jacob] and another born 1910 who died 1983.
A tree has already been linked earlier in the thread.
Outback_thunda could you please let us know what information are you actually seeking? You have since indicated early info but initially requested 'relatives' :)
Should we wait until Outback_thunda responds to avoid duplication of information already researched?
Cando
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hello outback_thunda
seems i am also a distant relative (reece my grandfather's name) hot on the trail of annie adelaide marddah/reece/townsend..
I have details of william townsend and annie adelaide's children in order of birth as:
willaim henry c1869–1948 warialda
whycome napoleon richard townsend c1871 warialda
annie amelia r c1874 tamworth
sophia c1876 nundle
albert ernest j c1880 walcha
florence m c1884 glen innes
all the other info in your trail seems to be fairly accurate and has filled in a few of my blanks.
i am so intrigued.
i'm actually after more information about isaac reece, annie's first marriage, i seem to have this man in my records as 'steele' --- i also have record of a son from annie called jacob steele reece before william townsend.. all very confusing.
i believe annie adelaide marddrah had liaison with a henry reece who impregnated annie, who he is i have no trace. it is believed isaac steele married annie while she was pregnant to avoid scandal and that annie and isaac have the same biological mother, different father. that's why i was surprised to learn annie and isaac had a daughter called flora!
i am after the true blood of jacob steele reece c1862–1931 (annie's first born) and where the 'steele' name comes in which is carried right down our line from isaac..
Looking forward to reading more..
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Thanks for your help everyone. you are all so helpful and such a wealth of information.... I started my tree with 1 newspaper clipping and a birth certificate. Now I have over 900 people in my tree and am no where finished.
PruM... what is a female factory?? as you mentioned in your last post? Sorry if I seem a bit vague I am not up with all the family history details etc yet
The specific information I am after as someone asked is :
1. where can I find information from where Helen Marddrah (where the Bearcroft comes in??)married Jacob Steel.
2. Birth for Helen Bearcroft I have 1 on ancestry.com.au for 1813 in England. But that's where the trail ends. Was she born Marddrah or Bearcroft.
3. Birth for Annie Adelaide Marddrah born approx. 1842 Parramatta NSW
4. Death for Helen. somehere I noticed 1883 but can not find any records to match or prove apparently Bingara.
So, If anyone can help with those queries. it would be appreciated. I thank all of you for your help so far and you have already filled in some blanks for me. THANKYOU
Oh and teeni bopper can you email me on (*)
all lowercase.people mix the L for a I. If you are chacng the same tree s me, have I got some information for you. Hopefully. WHat makes this all the more intriguing for me is my Grandfather to me was known James Valentine Williams. After passing away and many years later my Grandmother hands my father a birth certifictae and a newspaper clipping and sais this was your fathers real name. It was Richard Henry Reece born 1905 Quirindi. So i start joining the dots together....first time they ever matched. ANyways we can chat through email.
Moderator Comment: email address removed as per RootsChat policy to prevent spam and other abuses. Please use our secure PM (personal message) system to share email addresses and other personal information. Thank You.
teeniepoppa a Big Welcome to You. ;D As a new member you will need a couple more posts before the PM system opens up to you. Please reply to us here so that outback_thunda is able to contact you. All the best in your contact.
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Ahhh no wonder I couldn't find the PM thingy. I looked for ages.LOL. Thanks
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From the marriage cert of Isaac Reece and Annie you give the following for Isaac's parents: Groom mother: Frances Barnett Father: Isaace Reece
Unassisted NSW immigration shows this family arriving 20 May 1839 on the Juliana:
Isaac Reece
Frances - died on voyage ( bracketed with Isaac so assume it is husband and wife)
Isaac,
Judith,
Henry - died at sea on the Morayshire
There is another entry, though, which is supposed to be arriving 20 April 1839 on the Morayshire
Married Male Immigrant:
Isaac REECE,
brought out by The Government,
a native of Peesmarsh, Sussex,
Son of Isaac, shoemaker of the same native place, and Judy??, his wife
Calling: farmers' labourer
Age on embarkation: 34 years, 11?th January, 1839
Bodily health, strength and probable usefulness: very good
Reads and writes, no copmplaints.
There is this information aobut these ships, which explains the different ship names:
Juliana left Gravesend, England 20 October 1838 and was wrecked at Green's Point, Table Bay, Cape of Good Hope, 19 January 1839. The Mary Hay and Morayshire were chartered to take passengers on to Sydney. Some people stayed at the Cape of Good Hope.
On a different index there is this information:
All who survived left England on the Juliana, were shipwrecked in Sth Africa and arrived in Sydney on the Morayshire
Frances 30 Died at Cape of Good Hope 18 Jan 1839; Morayshire
Henry 2 yrs 3 mths Died at sea on the Morayshire 21 Mar 1839
Isaac 10
Isaac 34 labourer.
Jaber inft Born on board on 12 Jan 1839;
Edwin 4
Judy 8
I note there is no mention of the newborn arriving in Sydney
What a nightmare journey - one child born, then the shipwreck when the mother of the 6day-old baby dies in the shipwreck, get on another ship and the 2 year old dies!! Oh,so sad.
Judith
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I now see a marriage which looks as though it might be the father Isaac, remarrying:
1840 Isaac REECE to Ceary SIMS at St Lawrence's Sydney Reg V1840209 24B
And another birth which looks as though it's to the younger Isaac and Annie Adelaide (although her first name is not mentioned)- it fits with the submitted tree that JM found:.
1862 Jacob S REECE, father: ISAAC, mother: Adelaide Scone Reg 13377
Judith
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Hello Judb and outback_thunda
Sorry about the lower case, will cap from now on.
Such an amateur at this but so enthralled..
So much information thank you, yes outback I would really like to connect via email, apparently I need to make a few more posts before that function is avail to me. Your email was removed from the return message for security reasons.
I do believe your Richard Henry Reece is a missing man in my puzzle --- I believe we are constructing the same family tree with a personalised flavor of course --- I am amazed you have over 900 included. Is there any special way you're mapping it out? I'm a bit creative so I was going to set it up in a freehand drawing program on the computer so I can, move around, and add to blocks of information about individuals. I'm thinking I would like to some how tell more of a story as well as mapping the tree.
I've got to print out the trail of information from you guys and get my head around the sketchy map I have now --- making a note of all the avenues I want to explore.. as they just keep cropping up.
There seems to be mystery around, of course Annie Adelaide, but also her mother Helen and your Grandfather RHReece!
Keep the surprises coming and if you can work out how to email me through the PM service, that would be great.
teenieboppa
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well teenibopper I have heaps of informaion and of course my tree will attach to your tree. i am currently compiling in ancestry.com.au but also writing it for myself. i Intend to publish a book on it oneday......OK, just a quick insight
My grandad James Valentine Williams was apparently wanted for horse stealing in the piliga scrub. so he changed hi sname to that James VW and after he died and after noting so many discrepancies I was informed otherwise. My tree wasn't a tree as nothing added up but I discovered he was Richard Henry Reece b 1905 to Mary Latimore and Richard Napoleon Whycombe Townsend Reece(WHom I find out after like 5 years of googling it and i put it in the wrong way) is Whycombe Richard Napoleoan Townsend....
his father I have noted as William Townsend and Annie Adelaide Marddrah.
I then go about 2 generation on the townsend side and drop off again. i get to annie adelaide and seem to have a discrepancy in names. Marddrah doesnt exist. then one certificate I have sais her mum is Helen Bearcroft....another which i got today sais her name is Wisula Beecroft...well I can see the comparison between Helen and Wisula???? cant you.hahahahaha. NOT..so thats just stumped me i search wisula beecroft and get nothing which I already figured. Where do i go from here. Obviously neither of us have found what we are looking for.
where do you get the information you have re: isaac and annie being siblings from eand henry reece and isaace being a steel?? I really hope we can get throught to PM very soon.
Take CAre and thanks everyone for your help. If I have anymore queries or sort some more out I will ask and I hope I can help you some day
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2. Birth for Helen Bearcroft I have 1 on ancestry.com.au for 1813 in England. But that's where the trail ends. Was she born Marddrah or Bearcroft.
Extracted record from IGI
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bq/
BEARCROFT Ellen
Baptism 6 Apr 1813 Kirkby Moorside, YKS ENG
Father John BEARCROFT Mother Jane
.....what is a female factory??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parramatta_female_factory
http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/confem.html
JM
MODIFYING TO ADD Sorry for not indicating this earlier but the submitted tree mentioned in this post is NOT the same one as previously linked by
Quote from: PrueM on November 26, 2009, 01:34:00 PM
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07jq/ ........
Just Moi
JM perhaps it would be helpful if your sources/sources were linked ie unless it is private tree you have access to........
Cando
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Hi outback
I just had an idea --- why did Whycome Napoleon Richard Townsend --- tack Reece onto the end of his name if he was the child of Annie Adelaide Reece and William Townsend
a) either Annie and William weren't married when they had him or
b) he is Annie's child from her first marriage to Isaace Reece..
There is some thing really suspect there as a mysterious seemingly non-existent --- Harry Reece comes in from the left for me having been Annie's first male liaison.. and i thought that was where she got the Reece from --- not from Isaac (son of Jacob Steele) Steele who was her second male companion, Townsend being the third..
In my travels I also came across a Beecroft from Paramatta --- I wondered if this has any connection considering Annie was born in Paramatta?
I have noticed there seems to be variation in the spelling of various surnames and they seem to morph eg. I have traced Isaace Steele (one of Annie's husbands) fathers name as Isaac Preece who married Frances Barnett --- Preece seems to be the original spelling for Reece.
The same wierd thing is happening with Helen Bearcroft/Beaucroft/Beecroft/Becroft..
And Annie Adelaide Marddrah --- which I originally had spelt as Maddrah..
My mother had originally traced the Reece tree with the assistance of a great Aunt who speaks of pages missing from a family bible around Annie's time --- and now apparently the family bible has gone missing all together..
I do have a wierd feeling about Whycome --- I am thinking he may be Annie's son..
Tis fascinating :)
Bye for now, teenieboppa
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Cando. you are just unreal. No wonder your name is Cando.LOL. thankyou so much. I have looked everywhere but never seen that site before. WOWEE... im so excited. THANKYOU.
I couldn't get into the family tree link before must be a private tree or through subscription.. :)
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Hi outback
I just had an idea --- why did Whycome Napoleon Richard Townsend --- tack Reece onto the end of his name if he was the child of Annie Adelaide Reece and William Townsend
a) either Annie and William weren't married when they had him or
b) he is Annie's child from her first marriage to Isaace Reece..
There is some thing really suspect there as a mysterious seemingly non-existent --- Harry Reece comes in from the left for me having been Annie's first male liaison.. and i thought that was where she got the Reece from --- not from Isaac (son of Jacob Steele) Steele who was her second male companion, Townsend being the third..
In my travels I also came across a Beecroft from Paramatta --- I wondered if this has any connection considering Annie was born in Paramatta?
I have noticed there seems to be variation in the spelling of various surnames and they seem to morph eg. I have traced Isaace Steele (one of Annie's husbands) fathers name as Isaac Preece who married Frances Barnett --- Preece seems to be the original spelling for Reece.
The same wierd thing is happening with Helen Bearcroft/Beaucroft/Beecroft/Becroft..
And Annie Adelaide Marddrah --- which I originally had spelt as Maddrah..
My mother had originally traced the Reece tree with the assistance of a great Aunt who speaks of pages missing from a family bible around Annie's time --- and now apparently the family bible has gone missing all together..
I do have a wierd feeling about Whycome --- I am thinking he may be Annie's son..
Tis fascinating :)
Bye for now, teenieboppa
Ok Whycome is Annie's son but what i want to know is why the reece is tacked on and the first names changed about??? well i guess whycome is a name that i wouldn't want.haha. He can not be a child of reece unless she had an affair becaus etheir is another child i believe william born between jacob and whycome. Williams father being William Townsend of course. So im not saying that an affair is unlikely but i feel as though william would be the 1 too be a reece more than anything.
Helen is actually Ellen which I had a sneaking suspicion. A link had been posted by Cando and Im very greatful.
As for Henry reece I have no idea about this person...Who informed you of such information..(Just so i can get a bigger picture since you cant ring me or email me or vice versa at the moment.)
As for Isaac I have him as a reece. As for who his parents are then Ihave them as Isaac Reece and Francis Barnett..I have a death record for him in 1892 as Isaac Reece, a marriage certificate as Isaace Reece and also thanks to another helper here on the site I know have sited where he came from england. So for him to have the same parents as annie then to me that just doesn't sound right.
But not saying you aren't just doesnt make sense to me yet.
chat soon
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Oh teenibopper you mention henry reece. henry reece is the brother os Isaac Reece(annie's first husband) I dont know if that fits in or not with what you have but you mention a Henry reece. :)
oh teenibopper are you registered with ancetsry.com.au??? i have a lot of info onthere an deven photos.
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You can send one another pm's by clicking on the green icon under the user's name ie the person to whom you wish to send a personal message....and type away when the new window opens.....and send ;D
Oh dear that does sound a tad confusing...hope you succeed anyway.
Cheers
Cando
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thanks cando that icon wasn't there yesterday.LOL
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The icon only shows if you are logged in.
Cheers
Cando
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There are three Isaac REECE deaths listed on NSW BMD - unfortunately no ages given in the index.
1872 Isaac REECE, father Isaac; mother Edith, Mudgee Reg 4989
1919 Isaac REECE, father Isaac; mother not listed, Molong Reg 16218
1918 Isaac REECE father, Edwin; mother Mary A, Sydney Reg 24
I think the 1872 death is the father who was 34 (b abt 1805) when he emigrated in 1839 and the 1919 death is Isaac (b abt 1829) who married Annie Adelaide.
Annie's marriage to William Townsend 1869
1869 William TOWNSEND = Annie A REECE at Warialda Reg 3634
So I wonder if Annie had divorced Isaac or is there just no record of his death or was this a bigamous marriage?? (Unfortunately there are no NSW divorces online prior to 1873)
By the way the baby Flora b 1863 died the next year. Interesting that what we think is Annie's surname appears as her given name in this record.
1864 Flora REECE father Isaac; mother MADRAH Scone Reg 5783
Do you have any records for Henry REECE - I cannot see any on the NSWBMD - the only Henry mentioned is the brother of Isaac (Annie's husband) who died at sea aged 2, before they arrived in Australia. There is a Henry REECE died Liverpool Australia 1869 aged 88 (b abt 1781) thus too old to be a brother of either of the Isaacs. I see no other record of this older Henry.
Judith
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JudB you are correct Henry died on board the ship. i only just noticed that. Umm may I ask anyone as I am chasing the townsend side of thre tree I am in need of the birth of william townsend c1844 who married annie adelaide reece. i have his father listed as richard townsend and mother ruth white. This is secondhand information and I have no idea where to find the right info as I cant find it.There is a listing for a william townsend son of moses but he appears to be amrried to a different woman.
Any help there would be great.
May I ask how you peope know so much about family history research.??? You are very good at it.
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hi there again everyone. FOr those of you who know this post you will remember I am looking for a Ellen Beacroft born c 1813....I have also found her death and am yet to get a transciption of the certificate.. But her death is listed as Orella Steele 1883 bingara.
How common is the name Orella?? i cant seem to find it attached to any of the surnames i want ?? Any ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks
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Hi outback
Great work on finding 'Orella' Steele --- do you have her surname as Bearcroft c1813-1883 (Bingara)?
I have William Townsends birth as 1869, Warialda NSW
Hope this helps.
I'm hoping to spend some time on my Brett/Reece Tree tnite :)
Teenie Boppa
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How did you manage to track Orella down???
There are a number of REECE burials at Bingara General Cemetery online.
http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=14&cid=590
Actually - this is a better site - has photos
http://austcemindex.com/cemetery-inscriptions.php?id=151&page=all
Unfortunately the list seems to only have burials from 1900ish, so no sign of Orella Steele.
However I see (all REECE)
Jacob Steel REECE d 1931 age 69 (thus b abt 1862),
his wife Frances (nee Collins) d 1941, age 71 (thus b abt 1862)
and two of their sons
Frederic John d 24 Jun 1919, age 25
William Weston d 23 July1919, age 34
Also on 18 Jul 1919, aged 1 day Ivy Joan dau of William Weston
What an awful time they had - I wonder if it was the flu epidemic?
Edit - I notice there is a historical society at Warialda so they may be able to find some info for you.
http://www.warialdansw.com.au/Tourism/index.php/gwydir-history
Cheers, Judith
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Hi there teena,
William townsend as in Annie's husband was born 1844. They had a son william I believe born 1868/69....
Well ge on facebook tonight if you can and we can chat about the tree.LOL
JudB thanks again for your knowledge. Well On one of the certificates I have here for annies 1st marriage to isaace it sais annies mum is helen steel late maddrah...maiden name beacroft.
Then on annies marriage certificate to William Townsend it states mother as Orella Beacroft...Nowhere can I find such a person other than 1883 Bingara deaths Orella steele (steele being her married name) 1883 is the year Ellen died in bingara and orella matches a certificate. SO i have ordered it but it states no mother or father on the online indexes.
I cant match it so does that mean im stuck again or is there an agency in england that might be able to help???
I appreciate all your help
Thanks
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According to my sketchy notes --- Isaace Reece (Steele) was born to Orella and Jacob Steele --- this was Orella's second marriage --- Annie was offspring to Orella's first marriage, father unknown but we have Annie as having her original surname as Marddrah (spellng?).. This is where I got the notion Annie and Isaace were actually related (same mother) :-\
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as far as i can see. Isaac isnt a steele, he is a reece and he has a different mother.....this is so confusing.haha
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NEWS FLASH..YIPPE YIPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ;D
Annie's father was benjamin maddrah. WHy i didnt see it earlier stuffs me. woohhhhooooo.sorry im excited
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Hi Thunda -
What great news
How did you find that??????????????
And how did you track Orella down?????????????
Just interested ;D
Judith
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Free BMD (UK) has this marriage,
Jun qr 1839, registered at York. Vol 23 p619
Benjamin MADDRAH, and on the same page
Ellen BEECROFT
Another site of extracted registrations for England and Wales shows the marriage:
Benjamin MADDRAH (father Benjamin MADDRAH) to Ellen BEECROFT (father John BEECROFT) 23 Apr, 1839 at York. It may have been at St Maurice church.
Cheers, Judith
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HI Jud,
I didnt really track Orella down, i typed into bdm
steele 1880-1890 bingara. Then i went through them. i dont think there was many then i noticed the year was teh same year ellen died and then i had a certificate on order, when it arrived i noticed it had orella on it. another certificate has wisula???? but that it. I can not work out where the orella fits in with ellen but i guess in time...
then before i decided to type into ancestry maddrah and though i'll sift through looking for spelling irregularities and like 8th person down was benjamin maddrah, spouse ellen beecroft...I was like seriously thats shocking.its been there all along.hahaha..maybe needed an outside perspective or another way of thinking.
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Bit More
Confirming Judith's find and adding:
Online index for England & Wales Marriages, 1538-1940 indicates:
Benhamin Maddrah's father was also Benjamin Maddrah, and Ellen Beecroft's father was John Beecroft.
Ellen's marriage to Benjamin was 23 April 1839, at York.
Cheers,
JM
edit to add I'm not getting red lights at present, sorry for the duplication.
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Persistence sometimes works in the end.
;D ;D ;D
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thanks guys
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My heads spinning --- how awesome --- I have a Rosella Beaucroft on my scribblings.. which 'sounds' like Ellen or Orella :D
I also had a Beecroft come up ages ago when I did a Google on Rosella Beaucroft --- I got a Hannah and Mary Beecroft (from Parramatta)
My little story about the 'father' of Jacob Steele Reece (JSR) goes like this ---
Harry Reece (no trace) is the natural father of JSR ---
Annie Adelaide pregnant with JSR (to Harry Reece) when she married Isaace Steele (son of Jacob Steele and Ellen Beecroft (Beaucroft spelling in my notes)
Is Ellen - Orella - Helen - Rosella --- all the same person --- did she change her name not to be traced to her siblings..
Back on track -
Annie married Isaace when preg with JSR (so Jacob was naturally Jacob Reece) --- it is assumed Isaace Steele married her to avoid scandal (single mother) hence Steele-Reece
Ellen/Orella married Benjamin Maddrah first - had Annie - then married Jacob Steele and had Isaace Steele who married Annie --- they have the same mother --- is this why their daughter died at a very young age..in my notes somewhere from our chat on roots..
Isaace Steele had a sister called Marrianne --- Marrianne had a family Bible which she gave to Isaace on her death bed --- there were pages missing from the family Bible around Annie and Isaace --- and now the Bible has gone missing all together --- my great Aunt passed on this information before she died, I have the letters.
I love this :)
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Correction -- did Ellen, Orella, Helen, Rosella --- change her name not to be traced to her CHILDREN who married..
I didn't know Isaace and Annie had any natural children of their own til started to chat here --- on paper they had JSR but he is not the natural child of Isaace.. according to my notes..
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hey again teena,
Well as far as name change goes, back in those days(my understanding) is that there were so many different spellings and poor upkeep of records. Thus names and spellings arent necessarily the cause of the person. The informant may have wrong info etc. Im assuming if anything that Ellen's middle name may be Orcella/or Similar Orella.
Maybe I can help here, Isaac Steel(as you call him) Is most definitly not a Steel. He is a Reece and his parents are as stated in here somewhere Frances Barnett and Isaac Reece. He had a brother HARRY Reece who died at an early age on board a ship as stated in here somwhere too. :)
These details are in fact on a marriage certificate between annie and isaac. All checks out. too many records match with it to be different. Many tales are twisted and sometimes it takes forever to get to the right story..
As for JACOB STEELE REECE...his name is derived from Annie's step father Jacob Steel and Reece surname come from Isaac REECE his father. The baby (Flora could have died from many different things.illness/ cot death/ plague/ anything really. I will order the certificate(im a certificate person) too find out. But there is no indication that it is due to being the prodigy of 2 siblings.
Umm if you look in my tree on ancestry you will see the distinct difference in parents and a paper trail basically. As for a sister call marianne??? I cant see one for Isaac as in Annie' shusband but maybe the next generation but that seems too far back.
anyways Hope that helps
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Just had a look, may have generations a bit muddles but Isaac Recce (annies husband) had a brother called Ebenezer, he married a maryanne and they had a son called Isaac.....so i assume this is the marryanne. :)
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This family has me intrigued!!
Thunda you wrote:
As for JACOB STEELE REECE...his name is derived from Annie's step father Jacob Steel and Reece surname come from Isaac REECE his father. The baby (Flora could have died from many different things.illness/ cot death/ plague/ anything really. I will order the certificate(im a certificate person) too find out. But there is no indication that it is due to being the prodigy of 2 siblings.
And I would fully agree, having just wrtitten out, in order what I could find on this thread.
As for Isaac (aged 10 on arrival in 1839 - see the shipping list I posted) - his brother's name was Edwin, aged 4 in 1839, not Ebenezeer and I think this is his marriage on NSW BMD
1864 Edwin REECE m Mary Ann DAVIS reg ORANGE 2754/
So - we still haven't found a birth for Ann(i)e Maddrah, a death for her father Benjamin or a suitable death/divorce for Annie's first husband Isaac REECE which would be between 1862 and 1869 when she married William TOWNSEND. As I said before - perhaps it was a bigamous marriage as we have the death of baby Flora in Scone 1864 then the marriage in Warialda 1869.
Cheers, Judith
Addition:
The marriage cert of Annie and William TOWNSEND would be worth getting - or re-looking at as it could give info abt Isaac REECE and also another version of Annie's mother's name. If you haeve it would you mind transcrbing it - or have we already seen it??
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Hi there,
Should we consider the following UK birth as perhaps Annie's ... I'm not sure ... but...
Hannah MADDRAH, first quarter of 1839, Wakefield, West Riding, West Yorkshire... Volume 22, page 625 or 628...
Its just a thought, and I could be way off track.. but I've not found her birth in NSW at all .....
Cheers,
JM
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Good one JM but Hannah MADDRA b 1839, Wakefield Yorks is living with parents Robert and Mary in Yorkshire in 1851 and in 1841same family, same address (transcribed as MADDREY though) . This would appear to be the Hannah you found :'(
Judith
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Umm... oh well... I'll keep looking... I did spot a Benjamin Maddrah with wife Matilda in 1851 in Yorkshire... he was born abt 1806... perhaps they were Annie's paternal grandparents.
Also I've noticed that NSW State Records have changed their website's front page, perhaps they have added more online indexes... I did not find Maddrah last time I searched there.
Like you, I'm rather intrigued by this extended family.
Cheers,
JM
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Just Moi,
Thanks for trying to help. Benjamin Maddrah is Annie's dad and he remarried after ellen to matilda in 1850....well that what i can gather.
Yes, thi sextended family is really interesting
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Hi jud,
Thanyou for taking an interest in all of this. greatly appreciated.. I have the crtificate in question. I will find it later and transcribe for you,although I believe we have covered all bases.But another perspective may help. :)
I believe if you look on ancestry.com.au, i typed in simply just MADDRAH and came up with benjamin. if you look under marriages etc it has benjamin maddrah death 1853.
In 1850 it has a marriage for Benjamin to Matilda. SO I assume he remarried, same/approximate DOB.
As for a divorce from Isaac.No, i cant find one. i do have that his death was 1919. On BDM it only has 1919 and fathers name Isaac which matches, no mother identified on BDM.Thus if he died this late, then I dont understand why there is no divorce record.hmmmm
No, nowhere can I find a birth or shipping record for ellen or annie....WAs Annie born at the female factory As someone mentioned earlier?? Shouldn't there be a record though?
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Hi,
There's something amiss... I can see several possibilities... So I'll try to explain:
If the Benjamin Maddrah with Matilda in Yorkshire in 1851 was Annie's father (as opposed to her grandfather), then he must have returned to England after Annie's birth in Parramatta NSW in about 1842. Or perhaps Annie was not born in NSW, but arrived here later... as a single lass - assisted immigration scheme or perhaps with family or any number of possibilities...
If the 1851 Benjamin Maddrah with Matilda in Yorkshire was Annie's grandfather, (as opposed to her father), then that would support the info in the marriage MADDRAH = BEECROFT in 1839... and it would also throw up the possibilities that Benjamin and Ellen Maddrah (nee Beecroft) had migrated .... ;)
Free BMD (UK) has this marriage, Jun qr 1839, registered at York. Vol 23 p619
Benjamin MADDRAH, and on the same page Ellen BEECROFT
Another site of extracted registrations for England and Wales shows the marriage:
Benjamin MADDRAH (father Benjamin MADDRAH) to Ellen BEECROFT (father John BEECROFT) 23 Apr, 1839 at York. It may have been at St Maurice church.
Cheers, Judith
I'm still looking ;D
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Just Moi
There is also the possibility that Ellen came to Australia whilst she was pregnant with annie and left mr benjamin back in England???
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Of course, that's another possibility... there's others too...
I just did not want to overlook Benjamin MADDRAH, a father and his son both with same name...
I've been looking through the NSW State Records Immigration indexes online... as yet I haven't found any "likely" migrants.
Must admit, I haven't gone through the ferguson newspapers which are online, basically because they are not keyword searchable... Of course there's the beta version of OZ newspapers which are keyword searchable... http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home but I've not found MADDRAH mentioned there.
Here's the link for the ferguson collection of newspapers... http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/search.html Perhaps The Maitland mercury and Hunter River general advertiser would be a good one to read through, it has news all around NSW, not just the immediate area around Maitland. and the issues start in 1843 ....
Cheers,
JM
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i will have a look through that one thanks.I just dont get how is it possible that a person can basically never be born???
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i will have a look through that one thanks.I just dont get how is it possible that a person can basically never be born???
Well, in NSW until around 1856 or a little later, it was not compulsory for births to be registered... Many of the baptismal records survived, and most of those you find indexed online. The clue is that their reference number starts with "V" So pre 1856 ish, you only find baptismal records, rather than an actual birth registration.
If you can get to the NSW State Library, they have film records for the parish births (and marriages/deaths) from first settlement, and of course there's the newspapers from as early as 1803.
England's civil registration for births start from around 1837, so NSW was not too far behind.
Cheers,
JM
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hi all again, this might sound silly but how can someone come from england to australia and there be no record??
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hi all again, this might sound silly but how can someone come from england to australia and there be no record??
Depends how and when they came out. Apart from the convicts (who were generally very well documented) there were assisted and unassisted immigrants.
Assisted immigrants had applied for and been granted some form of government assistance to come out and settle in Australia. Therefore the government kept records of these people and ensured that things like passenger lists were completed and lodged etc. That's not to say that the records have all survived to the present day.
Unassisted immigrants usually just bought a ticket and came here with little or no government intervention. It was up to the shipping companies to keep whatever records they wanted to and often there is no record of the people who arrived in steerage (i.e. the economy passengers!). Again, lists that were kept may not have made it through the subsequent 150 years or so.
This is a very simplified run-down, but you can see that it can be hit and miss who is documented and who isn't.
Cheers
Prue
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Thankyou Pru,
I have just noticed that there are many J Steel/steele's that cam to Australia.. No first name is specifically indicated just the initial along with many mr Steele's so one can assume he is probably one of those. :)
As for ellen I can not find her as a maddrah only her marriage and no mention of her coming to Australia UNLESS:
She married Jacob Steel in the UK and came here as steel and is one of the many MRS Steel's.
So, yeah thas my conclusion for the night. Any one have any suggestions on how to find the birth of annie??? thtas really bugging me. I have applied for the certificate of Ellen/Orella's death and for the death of Jacob Steel. Hopefully that will shed some light further.
Thankyou everyone ;D
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Well, well, well - look what I've found!
Criminal Registers England,
Yorkshire, East Riding, Quarter Sessions held at Beverley, 14 October, 1851
Ellen BEECROFT, larceny, sentence 2 weeks
Yorkshire, West Riding, Epiphany sessions, held at Northallerton 6 January, 1852
Ellen BEECROFT, receiving stolen goods, prior conviction for larceny, sentence 7 years transportation
Australian Convict Transportation Registers
Other Fleets & Ships, 1791-1868, Convicts transported 1851-1852 (HO 11/17)
Ellen BEECROFT, trial date 6 Jan 1852, Northallerton Yorks, sentence seven years transportation.
Ship: Duchess of Northumberland
Voyage Date: 25 Nov 1852
Colony: Van Dieman's Land
New South Wales and Tasmania, Australia, Convict Pardons and Tickets of Leave,
Tasmania, Pardons, 1856-1859
Ellen BEACROFT (same ship, trial date, sentence as above) Period since conviction, 3 years; not sure but the next bit says 7 months (I think it is the time that a ticket of leave was held before the pardon was granted). Unfortunately this is not dated but looks as though it could 1859.
This Ellen leaves a lot of questions, though... Annie was born in abt 1843 (she was old enough to marry but under 21 in 1862) so this would assume that Ellen had used her maiden name and leaves us with the question of how Annie came to Australia. Ellen was gallivanting about Yorkshire committing larceny while Annie was a small child.
However the dates for this Ellen make her a possible for Annie's mother.
Cheers, Judith
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Well found Judith, :)
Tasmanian Convict Records
Beecroft Ellen arrival 21 Apr 1853 Duchess of Northumberland (2) departed 27 Nov 1852 Woolwich
Cheers,
JM
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Re Ellen Beecroft transported 1853 to Tasmania
Tas Archives Convict Records online http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/default.aspx?detail=1&type=I&id=CON41/1/37 and Ellen's are at page 29 of 240. Seems she had 4 children, but I cannot see that they came too. There's a full description of Ellen, aged 40, 4 ft 11 1/4 inches... lots of additional details at that link ;)
I think her Colonial Pardon dates from around 12 August 1856...
Cheers,
JM
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Hi there,
Re Colonial Pardons in Tasmania c 1857....
The newspaper link below gives some background on the outcomes for holders of Col Pardons circa 1857... and provides possible reason for holders to remove themselves from Tas to NSW but not to Vic or South Australia... Hence a possible reason for Ellen or her (still missing) daughter Annie to be in NSW prior to Annie's first marriage...
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3340253?searchTerm=%22colonial+pardon%22
Hobarton Mercury Wednesday 14 January 1857 page 4 of 4.
Cheers,
JM
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http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?detail=1&type=C&id=4137
This site shows the Duchess of Northumberland leaving Woolwich (London) on 27 Nov 1852, arriving 21 Apr 1853.
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/default.aspx?detail=1&type=I&id=CON41/1/37
Ellen is on p29 of the convict records - states she is married with 4 children!
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/default.aspx?detail=1&type=I&id=CON15/1/8
This site gives her age as 40, says she is a 'plain cook', convicted for stealing boots and the prior conviction was for stealing a bonnet
Edit: age fits with being 70 in 1883 and with birth date of abt 1813
Judith
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Wow, Just Moi, you have been busy..You are great. :D
Yes, by the looks of that the age does match and as you said how did annie get here.HHMMM which would be an indication she was born in england....Now, on Annie's 1st marriage certificate to Isaace Reece it sais.....That her mother being Helen STeel, late Maddrah gives permission for the marriage due to annie being only 19..
Thats unbelieveable Just Moi, Now to try and find the other 3 illegitement children I have no record of.hahaha
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Hi Outback,
Twas Judith's indepth searching, twas her find.. I twas only following up... Well found Judith...
Like Judith, I'm so intrigued with this family.... do you have the details on Annie's 1869 marriage to William Townsend, at Warialda ... if so, what info did Annie submit about herself at that time please .. perhaps there's a clue to be gleaned ?
Cheers,
JM
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Hi Jusith, sorry I must have missed your name. Both of you and all others have tried to help so much. it seems like im o where near finished untangling this.
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hi just a thought. since you all seem so resourceful....more resourceful than me. did annie come to australia as a beecroft or similar.im looking now but just a thought. ;D
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Hi there,
On this link you will find an Annie Adelaide REECE b abt 1850, and listing several children including an obvious variation in the name of your Richard Napoleon Wyombe Townsend REECE ( Whycome Napoleon R Townsend) ... have you considered contacting the author of that "tree"... perhaps to compare or share info ;)
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/~mark_searle/townsend-p/p24.htm#i1318
There's some great Australian Resources listed here at RChat ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,399.0.html
Cheers,
JM
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Hi Just Moi, Yes, that it the townsend/Searle-one tree I believe and yes, he only has what he finds on the net. I really do appreciate the help guys. Im just stuck with annie
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Agh....
So perhaps that "tree" info about Annie (the mother of the chap in this thread topic) being born abt 1850 would be in doubt :)
Here's the index reference for her 1869 marriage.. 3634/1869 to William Townsend .... perhaps the actual certificate/transcript may include witnesses whose names may show they were related to Annie, or hopefully confirm her parents names or her stated age for that marriage, or note she was a widow etc ? ;) or provide lots of information about her new husband ;D
Hi Outback,
..... do you have the details on Annie's 1869 marriage to William Townsend, at Warialda ... if so, what info did Annie submit about herself at that time please .. perhaps there's a clue to be gleaned ? .....
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Remembering that it was not compulsory to enrol to vote for candidates for NSW Colonial Parliament, oh, and also that there were property qualifications before males were eligible to enrol.... The Gwyir electorate included the Subdivisions/Police Districts of Walgett, Warialda and Wee Waa. The following may (and of course may NOT) be part of Annie's tree...
1870/1 NSW Electoral Roll for The Gwyir
at line 1548 Steel, Jacob residing at Bingera (yep, with an E, seems that was the THEN spelling for the area)
and again at line 1549, same details ... either a duplication or a second chap with same name,
at line 1722:Towensend, William residing at Gundemean ... (yep there's an extra E in his surname !)
1878/79 NSW Electoral Roll for The Gwyir
line 2954, Steel, Jacob freehold qualification Bingera
line 3182 Townsend, Richard residence qualification Warialda
Cheers, JM
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Ok here is the certificates and what they say:
Marriage 1: Isaac Reece
Date and PLace of Marriage: 23rd December 1861 at Saint Lukes Church, Scone.
Name and SUrnames of parties: Isaac Reec and Annie Adelaide Marddrah.
Conjugal status: Batchelor and Spinster
Birthplace Isaac: Peasmarch, Sussex, England
Birthplace Annie: Parramatta NSW
married in the: The consent of Helen Steel lat Marddrah, mother of the bride was given to the marriage of Annie Adelaide MArddrah and Isaac Reece
According to. Said a.a.marddrah being under twenty one years.
Usual occupation:
Isaac: Farmer Age:32
Annie: Living with mother Age 19
Usual place of residence i cant make out:Possibly Satur/Satin.
father name, mothers name and maiden name:
Isaac's: Isaac Reece Carrier
Francis Barnett(deceased)
Annie's: Helen Bearcroft
The marriage was solemnized between Isaac and Annie in the presence of Thomas Brown and Bridgette Turner.
Now all the writing is the same except the birthplace and the parents names and Annies usual occupation. these are written in different writing.
Marriage number 2 to William Townsedn
Date and PLace: 1869 1st July, Warialda.
Names and surnames of parties:
William Townsend
Annie Adelaide Reece
Conjugal Status: Bachelor and Widow
Birthplace:
William: Armidale
Annie: Parramatta
MArried in the: House of F R H Fitzsimmons D R Warialda
According to Acts of council
Usual Occupation:
Williams: Labourer Age 22
Annie: Teacher Age 21
Usual place of residence Bingara
Fathers name, mothers name and maiden surname
WIlliam: Richard Townsend and Ruth WHite
Annie: Jacob Steele and Wisula Beecroft
Fathers usual occupation
William; Labourer
Annie's Cabinet maker
Marriage was solemized between the 2 in the presence of james snape ad Sarah meynink
Hope that helps
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Agh,
1860/1 Electoral Roll The GWYIR
REES, Isaac, six months resident at Bingara :)
I'm still looking ;D
JM
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Hmmm
So in the 7 and 1/2 years between Dec 1861 and July 1869 Annie only ages 2 years :D
Perhaps her age at 2nd marriage is 27 badly written as 21??
Do you have the birth cert of the first child of William and Annie (William Henry b1869)? Does it say anything else about Annie?
There should also be a "Usual place of residence" for both Annie and Isaac in first marriage cert, I would have thought.
Do you have the actual certs as it might be worth posting the bits that are difficult to read - the usual place of residence in 1st marriage and also Annie's mother's forename (Wisula ::) ) in 2nd
Judith
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hi ther
QUote:first marriage:Usual place of residence i cant make out:Possibly Satur/Satin.
ummm no for 2nd marriage definitly only a 21..very clear.
Iam going to order that certificate.
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Sharing my own Eureka moment if I may...
While searching for the Electoral Roll for REES, I've found the name of the Returning Officer for 1859 for the seat of The Gwydir twas Thomas Gordon Gibbs DANGAR, Esq... who just happens to probably be a forebear on my OH's line ;D... :D
Sorry, I'll get back to Annie's marriages now :D
JM
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Re Annie's second marriage.. in the house of ....
Richard Higginson FITZSIMMONS was noted on the list of Officers in the Civil Establishment, 1869 as the:
the Agent for the Sale of Crown Lands, Warialda
Clerk of Petty Sessions, Warialda
District Registrar for Births, Deaths &c, Warialda
Cheers,
JM
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so you found something for you . Awesome. please dont waste all your time trying to dig up my past. I understand yous have your ow things to do. i do appreciate it thought.
WHats so intriguing bout my family history anyways.lol ;)
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Oh, forgot to add
James Snape in 1869 was the Police Magistrate and Coroner at Warialda,
JM
PS, Outback, I'm enjoying the trawling through Warialda ... tis all part of the learning curve... I've got forebears from around Nundle, Warialda, all through there, known to be there from around 1880's and onwards... So, I've got various resources for that area and I'm very pleased to be able to share the info via RChat. Your tree .... Tis intriguing - there's some unique first names, and the MADDRAH surname WOW ... Urrrr... I've got my share of John and Mary Smith, or John Brown ... so popular, thus so difficult to crack those brickwalls. Yet it seems that MADDRAH is also a difficult brickwall... ;D
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Ok, I have officially ordered a few certificates.now to wait there arrival. they may show some hints hopefully..
I have ordered the death certificates of
Orella(Ellen)Steel oooohhhh ooohhh Just Moi if Ellen came to Australia as a beecroft I thought she may have married Jacob Steel in Tasmania as a beecroft but cant find any marriages for Jacob Steel anywhere.
ANyway back on track Death cert of Jacob Steel
Death Cert of Flora Reece
Birth Certificate of Jacob Steele Reece
BIrth Cert of Flora Reece
Birth Cert for William H Townsend
Now hopefully I will get some dicrepancy out of those. If not I think Im doomed.lol..but hey ive been thinking that for 7 years. I have had more luck in the last 12months than ever... :) A lot thanks too you guys on here ;)
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Hey thunda and crew
I haven't been online for a couple of days so you've all just blown my hair back..
I have printed your chat and i'm trawling through with my highlighter trying to add it all up (to put in my tree Brett/Reece) --- being very new to this the learning curve is steep.
Question: does it cost to order certificates?
And yes Annie and her mother, whoever she is, are soooo interesting..
My Mum (a Reece) had some original photographs of Annie and Isaace Steele --- she seems to have misplaced --- as soon as she finds I'll scan and supply.
Keep going ladies :)
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Ordering BDM certificates definitely COSTS...
The best option I have found for NSW certificates is actually to get an official transcript. At the top of this thread you should see Australian Resources... then within that, there's NSW resources...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html
and within that there's · Details on ALL Certificates for New South Wales
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/certificateDatesAndContent.htm
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
Transcription Agents
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,300394.0.html
I find that ordering a transcript for the birth of forebear gives lots of information about the parents, and if they had lots of children, then I also order the transcript for the youngest child to compare the info the parents provided.
Many cheers, and I should add... Rootschat is the bestest site around for getting and for offering help with family history. Tis of course, Just Moi Opinion ;D
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Hi all,
Just Moi you crack me up with your joke.hahaha. Just Moi opinion, well, it's mine too.I like transcripts but decided I like the certificates too. ;D Its $9 extra for the certificate but I have over 100 so i think im collecting and Im going to turn into into a book, My other half dreads when I say im gonna order a certificate or two...LOL,..
Anyways If you want a certificate Teena let me know which one and I may have it already...
Chat soon
Di
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This is totally off topic but I was wanting to know how to trace someone who was adopted if your mother wont talk about it?? From myunderstanding you cant contact that person unless you have your mothers consent OR your mother is deceased. is this correct..
Eg: Mother had son and adopted him,later had other children. Through family gossip has now realised they have a sibling out there somewhere, mother has never mentioned it or probably not going too either..... Where do they stand.???
Thanks
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Hi there,
Try this link, there's a sub-section titled "Where do I begin" (Adoption Jigsaw organisation in OZ)
http://www.jigsaw.org.au/
Also please read through this link http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,142443.0.html
If I may offer a suggestion or two for searching along that path .... to "walk slowly", pausing, thinking always of the up and down sides .... with good intentions, and try always to consider walking in their shoes too. (Your shoes, the adopted person's shoes, the adopting parents shoes, and of course there's the mum who gave birth, the birth dad, the grandparents, aunties/uncles, ...)
There's lots of shoes to consider walking in :)
Don't fret or be down-hearted if at first you don't succeed, for tomorrow is another day...
Bestest thoughts
Just Moi
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hi there,its just I contacted some people and they said unless I am the adoptive parent or the adopted child then they cant help unless the adoptove mother gives permission or is deceased, this isnt actually me, its a cousin who is trying to find her adopted brother....Me i kow who i am and have 11 confirmed siblingds all over the place and possibly 7-8 more somehwere but have no where to start.LOL
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Hello outback-thunda
My husband is a great-grandson of Richard Napoleon Whycom Townsend Reece. We would love to know the origins of Richard’s two middle names.
Following the line to my husband, Annie Adelaide Marddrah married Isaac Reece on 23rd December 1861 in Scone in the upper Hunter Valley. Then on 1st July 1869 Annie Adelaide Reece (listed as a widow) married William Townsend in Warialda. Their son Richard was born in Bingara on 3rd September 1871. Richard then married (as we assume from the birth certificate of their eldest daughter), Mary Jane Latimore (Latimer) on 1st July 1902 at Springridge, Quirindi. This was Mary’s second marriage (with 6 previous children). Richard and Mary’s eldest daughter, Nora May Rose Reece, was born on the 29th June 1903 in Narrabri. Nora married Robert Kelly in 1926 and my mother-in-law Rosemary was born in 1931. Richard died in 1948 in Tamworth and Mary Jane in 1949 in Cessnock.
Like others we have noted the confusion in Richard’s surname. While his birth certificate carries the surname Townsend he was known as Richard Reece by the time of his marriage in 1902. As you probably know, on Annie’s second marriage certificate to Mr Townsend, she is listed as a widow, but I can’t find a death certificate for Isaac Reece prior to that time, though a chap by that name died in 1872 (sorry I don’t have any confirming certificates for this). Perhaps they had split up (or she was a bigamist!!) or maybe we just need to look harder. Nevertheless it appears that Annie Adelaide died in about 1893 in Emmaville and William Townsend married Mary Ann White in about 1894 also in Emmaville. Perhaps there had been acrimony between Annie and William, or between William and Richard causing Richard to revert to his mother’s previous name (it would be interesting to see school records). My mother-in-law knew her grandparents but cannot shed any light on this. Certainly it is the name Reece that carried on through Richard’s children.
We are also a bit mystified by Annie Adelaide Marddrah’s surname. There are various spellings on different certificates – usually Marddrah or Maddrah. We think it might be pronounced Madiera and various phonetic spellings of it seem to be associated with people who live in or near York. The certificate of her marriage to Isaac Reece is quite confusing with additions in a second hand-writing added after the event from the Church register. Annie’s mother is listed there as both Helen Bearcroft and Helen Steel late Marddrah. Does “late” mean her previous husband’s name or something else? We had found a convict from York, William Madderah who received his Certificate of Freedom in 1836, but we are most interested in the posting that link Benjamin Maddrah with Ellen Beecroft.
Hope this helps
Margaret
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Hi Margaret, and welcome to Rootschat
This is a very long and complex thread, with a number of red herrings and side-trackings as we have tried to sort out this family. I would suggest that you may need some time to sort through it and note what information is backed up through reliable sources such as IGI, FreeBMD, convict registers, etc etc.
Some of your points have been covered from sources - a birth listing on IGI for an Ellen BEARCROFT in Yorkshire (Reply #23), origin of Annie's MADDRAH surname (reply #39), and the marriage of Annie's parents (reply #41) - but, as always, the connections are conjecture.
I don't think we have found the origin of the Whycomb part of Napoleon's name, and it would appear that Annie's connection to the Reece and Townsend surnames were blurred in Napoleon's name usage.
There are certainly many points still needing work and some of them may never be found.
It is a fascinating thread!
Cheers, Judith
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Hello Judith and outback_thunda
Thanks for your reply Judith. I spent hours yesterday searching databases in NSW State Records for any hint of the arrival of Benjamin and Ellen Maddrah in Australia. I've put in every combination of Ellen/Uelen/Ursula/Orella with wildcard searching under B, M and Steel/e into the various immigration lists. Have done likewise with NSW B,D and Ms but I can't find anything (I think someone else made that comment in an earlier posting). It's very frustrating.
I've found the reference to the marriage of Benjamin and Ellen in 1839 and it seems reasonable that they are the parents of Annie Adelaide - have any of you sighted the actual marriage certificate. There is a Benjamin Maddrah listed in British census of 1851 but that could be the grandfather. What then happened to Benjamin number 2? Have also noted the convict arrival of an Ellen Beecroft in 1853 in Tasmania but this looks like a red herring - there are quite a lot of Ellen Beecrofts in various UK databases.
Nevertheless how can there be such a gap between the 1839 marriage of Benjamin and Ellen and the marriage of Annie to Isaac Reece in 1861 with no records? From various certificates that I do have, it seems that Annie was born in about 1844 in Parramatta. Before I now spend money at the B,D and Ms registry office trying to find her with no on-line birth registration number available, has anyone got any more search clues or new information?
Thank you all for your help. It's sort of good to know that I'm not the only one frustrated by this.
Margaret
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Hello everyone
Just a P.S. to my last posting. The birth certificate for Richard N.W. Townsend has his third name spelt as Whycom. I've wondered if it should have a 'be' on the end (ie Whycombe). It might, or probably might not be a consideration for linking his middle names to other people or places if anyone is that interested.
Cheers
Margaret
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Hi Margaret,
On reply #41 you have a UK marriage from Free BMD which I believe is most probably Benjamin and Ellen/Helen/Orella. The surname of MADDRAH is so uncommon, and the name Ellen Beecroft fits well, but I grant you it is circumstantial.
The description of the Ellen BEECROFT convict fits well with the later age evidence for Orella STEELE. The convict has (from memory) 4 children left behind in UK. The convict Ellen arrived in Tasmania so probably no record of arrival in NSW; I don't believe Benjamin came to Australia. The reference to the UK children (cannot find any reg for them) and the gadding about in Yorkshire of the Ellen convict could well account for some of missing time.
Annie could well have been born out of wedlock, registered under another name (although I can't see any 'Annie Adelaide' registered NSW 1835-1850), not registered at all, or born in Tasmania (if Ellen is the convict).
This bit is only my opinion but this lady seems to have been fairly laid back as to which forename she used at various times in her life. I would not be surprised if she was happy to change surnames at times also - she may have taken on the STEELE surname without a legal marriage.
Details given on certificates in this search are fairly unreliable also - even Annie has 7 and 1/2 years between her two marriages (Dec 1861 and July 1869) but Annie only ages 2 years.
Cheers, Judith
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Hello Judith
Thanks again for the recent information. It has been a number of years since I first tackled this part of the family history (was in 2002 I think) and I basically gave up because of the sort of brickwalls that everyone has been running into. It's most useful to now have an English Maddrah to pursue.
I don't believe there is any more to be gained from searching official NSW records. Like you I've done all the name permutations I can think of. I even tried just going through the Annie births (without Adelaide) for a 15 year period as well - that was fun! I hadn't picked up on the age discrepancies for her however - the plot thickens. I thought that maybe I was on to something when I found William Mudderah the convict but basically decided to call it quits until I retired and could spend time in the archives etc checking up further on him, but maybe we have been looking at the wrong convict. Following your comments the Tasmanian connection might in fact be worth a further look.
You are right about Ellen/Helen being free with her name (one certificate I have names her as Ursula) and this has also caused us problems in tracing other members of the family. I do remember that when I was trying to fill in gaps in the more recent part of the tree that there was constant frustration with lack of official documentation, marriages that weren't, fathers who's status is questionable and sudden name changes.
If I find anything new I'll post the info but I do this irregularly because of work so it may take time (if I find anything new at all). Thanks again for your help.
Margaret
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Hi again Margaret
I would agree that there is probably little more can be found although perhaps the Historical Society in Warialda/Bingara may be able to dig up more info.
One last question - what is the cert you have with the name Ursula? I would be interested in the details on that certificate as it has not figured in this thread until you mentioned it.
Cheers, Judith
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Hi everyone. my appologies I have been camping...SOOOO much fun. LOL
anyway back on topic.LOL.
Margaret i am a great great grandaughter of Richard Napoleon Whychombe Townsend Reece So I would love to chat with you... I havent yet read the postings but will get to that later today once we are unpacked from camping. I will keep in touch and i will try to Private message you and give you my email address also.
Chat soon. Dianne
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hello, also quick perusal there.LOL. umm what certificates do you need as I have a lot and may be able to simply photocopy them for you....Let me know and will get back to you later again..SO sorry..
Busy busy busy.
Di
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Hello Dianne
It's really nice to have someone else interested in trying to piece together this bit of a puzzle. On the family tree that we have done (which is quite incomplete) we have just 3 more children of Richard's apart from Nora (husband's grandmother) - Richard H, William (Jim or Bill) and Daisy - mother-in-law has often talked about Daisy (Aunty Dais). Which of the children are you descended from?
So far as I know there hasn't been much contact at least in recent times with other members apart from the immediate family. My mother-in-law, whose memory is fading a bit faster that it was in 2002 when we did a bit of work on this, did have some memories of her grandparents when they lived in Tamworth. She was 18 when Richard died but I might be able to extract some further details from her - she doesn't apparently know why he became a Reece (though name changes were a bit of a family tradition it seems). She does remember her grandmother Mary Jane going to stay with a son in Cessnock after Richard's death.
I've just had another look at the family tree (which I'm afraid I don't remember very well without it here in front of me) and I've spotted something that might be of interest. Annie Adelaide had 2 children with her first husband Isaac Reece. Their first born was a son Jacob S Reece and his first child with wife Francess Collins was called Margaret Orcella Reece (born 1883). I don't have the actual certificate - this is taken from the NSW BDM web site, so I can't check spellings but I wondered if there is any significance in her middle name being similar to Orella Steele who died in 1883 (and who we're considering might be Ellen Beecroft/Steel in another disguise).
Yes I would be happy to exchange emails with you. It would be good to get as much of this sorted out as we can. I'll put some order to the certificates I have here and see if I can send you some in return.
Happy New Year
Margaret
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Hello Judith
Yes you're right about contacting the Historical Society - there's only so much we can do on the internet and even some foot work up north might be the way to go soon.
The certificate that I have that mentions Ursula Beecroft is the 'original copy' dated 16 Apr 2002, of the marriage between William Townsend and Annie Adelaide Reece on 1st July 1869. The parents of Annie are written as Jacob Steele (Cabinet Maker) and Ursula Beecroft. It's in the original handwritten script but I'm fairly certain it says Ursula. It's definitely not Ellen or Helen.
Not sure that this gets us anywhere further except to confirm the propensity to name change.
Happy New Year
Margaret
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Hello Dianne and Judith
Just thought I'd mention that I think I pieced together the origins and first marriage with some 6 children of Mary Jane Latimore (Latimer), wife of Richard Napoleon. It was tricky to trace because her first husband was Italian (Johann Karthegene) and his surname became increasingly anglicised as each child was born. He worked and possibly died on the railways and Richard seems to have to come to the young family's rescue.
As I've mentioned before it's a while since I looked at this history and I'd probably like to double check it but if both or either of you are interested I'd be happy to email it on.
Happy New Year again
Margaret
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Ok, i have read and am really starting to be over this tree.LOL.it's such hard work..
margaret my Grandfather was Richard Henry Reece ( Iknow him as James Valentine Williams) he changed his name because he was wanted for horse stealing in the the Piliga scrub....Apparently. :)
MaryLatimore married a John Halligan, he died in 1900. may I ask where or how you came upon the name Johann Karthegene?? After her Husband Richard Died she went to live with her son George Halligan in Cessnock, george then moved to QLD and I am currently in contact with George Halligans Son and He doesnt know much at all.
I have the Same certificate as you in regard to marriage of Annie to William Townsend, Inow also have the marriage to Isaac. Birth of Jacob Steele Reece and Flora and Death of Flora, Birth of William H Townsend... Which provide no extra info except that she was born in Parramatta and granted we have no idea if her Mother Ellen/ursula/orella or lets just call her Jane Doe :D was the convict mentioned earlier or not we have no idea if Annie was indeed born in The UK or Australia. I also have the death of orella Steele and most of the information is provided by the undertaker?? Umm which isnt much either..I was wondering if someone wanted to get the marriage of Ellen and Benjamin Maddrah transcribed etc. or tell me how to go about getting the certificate etc from the UK.
I also have the ceryificates of Birth and Death for both Mary Jane Halligan and Richard.
May I ask which of the Reece Children Your husband descendss from: William/Daisy, etc.
Alrighty Chat soon.
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Ok we cant find a birth for annie or an arrival that can be confirmed for Ellen or Annie, im just drawing wildcards here.???? What IFFFFF she was only say 14 when she was married for the first time to Isaac or 12...Im just throwing wildcards but if you go to BDM in NSW and type in Birth for Last name: Unknown First name Anne or Annie you come up with several??? Are these a possibility???
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Hello Dianne
I can understand your frustration level with this part of the family tree. I basically gave it a miss some 6 years ago because of the difficulty of confirming information and because I'm only a fringe dweller in the family. There has been a major advance now though as a result of your original enquiry - we may now have confirmation on Ellen Beecroft/Bearcroft at least in England, and the name Maddrah coming from her first marriage. We still have the question though as to whether Benjamin was Annie's father - you're right this is a nightmare.
Nevertheless I'm happy to get the marriage certificate from England but I've never done this before so I might be a bit slow. I'll also like to see what I can find out about the convict Ellen Beecroft in Tasmania if that's okay. I don't really want to try and track all the Annie's through BDM records - you're right though, her mother may have married her off very young.
My husband is the grandson of Nora Reece (often called Kate). She was the eldest child of Richard N. and Mary Jane. I spoke to my mother-in-law last night and she thought your grandfather was William (Bill) Reece and he changed his name to Williams, but she's obviously got him confused with Richard Henry - so I'll change the details here. Oral family history can be as inaccurate as some "official" documents, if not more so.
Mary Jane Latimer's marriage to Johann Karthegene occurred on 10 November 1884 in Botany Strret, Waverley. He was an Engine Driver originally from Genoa, Italy. The registration number with NSW BDM is 3005/1884. The family moved around NSW following the development of the railways and they had 6 children. I traced their locations and births largely through spending days on the on-line indexes searching on Mary Jane's name. You can see the gradual change in the spelling of Karthegen to Halligan through the birth certificates. John is the Australian version of Johann. The last child George (who you mentioned before) was born in 1900 in Narrabri, I think. Shortly after his birth (according to my mother-in-law) John Halligan was killed in Sydney. M-in-L thinks it might have been in a railways accident but we're not sure - I don't think I got his death certificate as he isn't actually an ancestor.
Hope this helps
Margaret
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Hi there Margaret,
Well, th eplot thickens. Well I dont mind getting the certificate from england, Im more than happy too but i know its gonna be a long process...just let me know.
OK i always wanted to know who aunty katie was because my dada always spoke of her. Your M in L used to write to my uncle larry.......anyways you may be able to help me out with photos since you are so close to the source and I you. i have many photos of my relatives right back to Richard H Reece(james V Williams) I would be more than happy to pay for copies of things you might have.
Well Mr halligan and name changes in this family are just great. getting better.LOL...Im more than happy for you to search through Tasmania records. i have something new and I dont know if this a help to all looking at this tree BUT on the death certificate for orella steel it states::
that she had been in Australian Colonies for 30 years in 1883 when she passed. this would also confirm her arrival to australia as a convict in 1852 ish...jog my memory its back in this thread somewhere.LOL... now thi sinformation was provided by Jacob steele reece and the undertaker. also states has 1 child living other than Jacob as Anne Adelaide not annie so maybe we are just spelling things wrong. I gave up on spelling years ago.hahaha
Also birth certificate of Flora states mother as Annie Adelaide maiden name De la maddrah....
So dunno if that helps and her age varies between 8 years at a time in one such instance being as young as19 when she should be 27..???? thats why i asked is it possible she was only very young when married and also did the children she had previous(the 4 asummised to be left in england live or are they deceased as there is no record of them??? Just a thought. even the father benjamin has no children living with him in census records even after his marriag eto matilda.....????
Be back layter :)
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Ok well I have taken the liberty of ordering th emarriage certificate of Ellen and Benjamin.. SOOOO....when I recieve it I will update and of course any who want a copy give me a yell.:)
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hi there could someone please translate this page for me..Please... I t sais top R hand 4 children in....to me it looks like new york but If someone could translate it for me id be grateful. Its a bit hard to read for my young not so good at reading older writing skills. ;)
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON41-1-37,240,29,S,80
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I FOUND SOMETHING I FOUND SOMETHING........ :) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=91
is it something someone please tell me its something,...
Ok its probably not something.
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I was searching the newspapers for my own Richard REES/REECE, forgot to put the filter on for South Australia, and came across this lengthy article in the SMH of 6 Aug 1907:
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14895433?searchTerm=Richard+reece
where Richard Napoleon Wycombe REECE, a carrier, residing at Quirindi, is a key witness at the coronial inquest into the shooting death of Eliza Maud FLETCHER. The coroner ruled that it was murder, and ordered the arrest of a George TOFFT.
It is a fascinating read.
Cheers
Nudge
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G'day Dianne
Just a quick reply. I'll get back to you later about photos etc. We don't see mother-in-law very often but will be spending the day with her sometime in the next 3 weeks so will try and round up some photos. I've also got to reply to your offer of a look at the tree. Sorry - we're frantically busy here doing house maintenance before going back to work.
Anyway - both of us had a look at Ellen's convict record and the handwriting is not good (of course - isn't that just typical). The top right hand corner looks like the following. Have left blanks for words we can't make out and assumed words are in brackets:
"Transported for Larceny (Govt) report before felony Single _______ this offence _______ _________ Pro (Prosecutor) Harrison at Yorshire 14 days for a bonnet (?) 4 children (Surgeon) RPT (Report) very good ________"
Looks like she might have done 14 days previously for theft - looks like a bonnet but not sure.
As you've probably worked out from the rest it looks like after she arrived in Tasmania, on April 17 1854 she was found under the influence of liquor and given 6 months hard labour. On August 21 1855 she was recommended for a Conditional Pardon then something happened to stop this action. The writing really deteriorates here but she may have been found drunk again. Anyway she was given a conditional pardon on 12th August 1856.
Then what happened to her - over to you. You're doing great detective work. Is there a certificate of conditional pardon, or similar available? Is there a shipping record for her then to come to the mainland?
The dates for Ellen do seem to fit together. Do you have the baptism record of Ellen Bearcroft? - 6th April 1813 at Kirkby Moorside in Yorkshire with parents John Bearcroft and mother Jane. This would make her 26 when she married Benjamin (1839) and 40 when she arrived in Tasmania (if we have the right person) which is the age on her convict record, and 70 if she was Orella Steele whi died in Bingara in 1883.
Have had a look at the arrivals in Tasmania - did you mean the Beecroft family in 1836 and the bloke in 1837? Not sure how they fit in. It's doing my head in.
Look forward to the next exciting instalment,
Margaret
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England and Wales Criminal Registers show
At Beverley, East Riding, Yorkshire, 14 October 1851 - Ellen BEECROFT, conviction: larceny Sentence 2 weeks
At Northallerton, North Riding, Yorkshire on 6 January , 1852 - Ellen BEECROFT, conviction: receiving stolen goods, before larceny. Sentence: transportation 7 years.
Cheers, Judith
By the way do we know the first name of Ellen/Helen/ Orella's Mr STEEL(E)?
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Hi Judith yes Ellen's Mr Steel is Jacob Steel not Jacob Steele Reece(this is annies son) Just Jacob Steele.
Did anyone look at the shipping index I asked about earlier on??? Does it look like a possibilitly?
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=91
That link has an anne adelaide adelaide???
Someone tell me its something pleaseesesesese. :)
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Is this the ref you meant?
ADELAIDE Ann Adelaide on the Eucalyptus from Melbourne 22 Apr 1852 Ref: MB2/39/1/15 p169
I'll have a look next time i'm at the ANL. Problem is Annie would only have been about 11 years old at the time. I see a Harvey ADELAIDE onthe same voyage. However nothing can be discrded with this family!
Cheers, Judith
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Yeah thanks judith. i realise she would have only been 11ish but i stumbled on it and thought it may look hopeful casue as you say nothing can be left discarded and it also matches the year her mother was convicted so thought maybe she came to australia to be here...umm dunno.
Cheers Di
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I think it was reply #34 or 35 where I listed burials at the Bingara Cemetery for
Frederic John d 24 Jun 1919, age 25
William Weston d 23 July1919, age 34
18 Jul 1919, aged 1 day Ivy Joan dau of William Weston
Looking at the Warialda Standard Jul28, 1919 it states that William and his baby daughter died from influenza.
Warialda Standard, 19 Jul, 1931
Mr G (sic) S Reece, an old resident of Bingara died in Sydney on the 11th inst and his body was conveyed to Bingara for interment.
So this would be his death (NSW BMDs)
17525/1931 Jacob S REECE Father Isaac, mother Annie A, registered at Petersham.
Another couple of snippets!
This thread is so long now :( I can't remember whether you have his death cert - probably well worth getting if not.
I looked for the shipping ref for the person going Melb- Tasmania in 1852 but couldn't find the fiche to look at. Also tried to find Bingara newspapers but that will have to wait for another time.
Judith
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Hello all again..
Im back from holidays AGAIN..last one for a while :(
Anywho, I came home to the certificate I ordered from the UK....Marriage of Benjamin and Ellen....it tells us no more than we already new.... :(
So sorry guys. any other certificates you can think might help
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Had a good trawl through various records at the Nat Library earlier in the week.
Firstly, the passenger list Melbourne-Tasmania 1852 showed Henry ADELAIDE, 40 and Anne ADELAIDE, 26 on the Eucalyptus arriving Hobart 22 Apr 1852. Looks unlikely.
Secondly, some publications from the Bingara Historical Society which are fascinating and I would strongly suggest you get in contact with them. One article even had a list of the 7 descendant families still in the district - possibly with a mine of information. Whoo-hoo - another Christian name for Ellen!!
All of this info is in the publications and I have no idea how reliable it is but here are two pertinent extracts:
Jacob Steel REECE b 1860 at or near Scone NSW; came to Bingara, 1865. Mother became a teacher at the first school in Bingara.
The STEELE family: Isaac STEELE (origins Bourne, near Leeds, England) arrived in Brisbane in 1857 on the Parsee. 18 January 1858, married Maria Green from Hampshire who had also arr Brisbane 1857. Stayed in Brisbane till moving to Inverell district in 1886. (My comment - this is a bit bizarre as we have Helen/Ellen/Orella calling herself Helen STEEL at Annie's wedding in 1861 in Scone, and dying with the STEELE surname - I think it may be just a co-incidence of surnames, as this Isaac STEELE seems to have no connection with Helen or her husband Jacob)
Then there are these biographical details:
ANNIE ADELAIDE REECE (nee MADDRAH), dau of William and Hosella 'Ellen', stepdaughter of Jacob Steele, b c1845, d1893 Emmaville, m (1) Isaac Reece, 1861 Scone, (2) William Townsend regd 1869 Warialda. Isaac and Annie left Scone and came to Bingara around 1864-5, where Annie became a teacher in Bingara's first school.
HOSELLA/ORELLA/ELLEN STEELE (formerly MADDRAH, nee BEARCROFT) b c1812, d1883 Bingara, bur Bingara m (1) ? Maddrah, (2) Jacob Steele. Jacob and Ellen left Scone and came to Bingara around 1864-5 and settled out on the Narrabri Rd. Jacob was an early Bingara builder and cabinet maker.
So - another name for her, and you can see how 'Hosella' could have turned into 'Ursula' on the cert Margaret has.
I found a photo of her granddaughter’s grave in Warialda cemetery with her name shown as Hosella Margaret McCaw. She seems to be in the NSW BMDs as Margaret Orselle McCaw
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=3987016
Did we have Annie’s death?
1893 Annie Townsend, father Jacob, mother Ellen, registered at Emmaville, #5706
The Bingara publications have a photo of Annie and also a photo of Hosella/Ellen/Helen/Ursula/Orella
Cheers, Judith
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Thanks Judith, will get onto it on Monday...I wonder if it might be better if I actually drive to bingara and warialda and stay for a week....hmmm ;)
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I think you might find out a lot!! Perhaps the Historical Society could put you in touch with the other families. One of the articles was written by a descendant.
Judith
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Hi Judith, Do you think actually going there would be a better idea?
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My thoughts are that you should contact the Historical Society in the first instance. They certainly appear to be a busy and productive group.
Historical Society Museum Bingara
Maitland Street
Bingara, NSW 2404
Email: bingaramuseum[at]digisurf.com.au
Judith
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hi my name is Leonie ( townsend13). Richard whycome is acutally whycome napoleon richard townsend born to annie adelade ( nee maddrah , reece ) & William Townsend born 1871. 18834.He was my great grandfather they had ten children. Being
William H Townsend b 1869 married Clara Roles 1889 (4644 )
Whycome Napoleon Townsend B 1871
Mary Elizabeth Townsend B 1872 07716-m augustus E Couglin 1898 2227
Annie Amelia Townsend b 1874 19592
George William Townsend B 1875 18500
Sophia Townsend B 1876 17465
Hannah Townsend B 1879 M Daniel Staines 1898 5884
Albert Earnest J Townsend b 1880 09297 ? is this ernie reece who lived at 21 griffen ave tamworth
Mary A Malady 1900 3728
Florence M Townsend b 1884 19145 had a son William H Townsend when she was 14 in 1898 got married at 16 yrs old to henry White 19000 8672
Elizabeth E Townsend B 1887 16860
Now William & Clara married in 1889 had
Thomas George ( my dad) 1896 29061
Roy B 1899 26733
Richard A B 1899 01575 died at about 9-10 yrs old
Clara B 1900 29699
Now I had a call from a man saying that Annie Adelade was aboriginal. Have you heard anything about this. He lived in Sydney.
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Hi Leonie,
I am Dianne and Whycombe Napoelon Townsend REECE?? b 1871 Srname variation as explained earlier in the thread is my great grandad ...... :) and your great grandad is my great great grandad.
As for aboriginal I have the exact same story. From the horses mouth. My grandad told his kids that he was part aboriginal??? hmm maybe youd like to get in touch and work it out.
OOOHHHH JUDITH...thankyou so much.got info today. You are great
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Hi Dianne
I have this on the Roles family
Christopher Lewis Roles B 1827 Not Australia
Died 1887- 08530 age 60 yrs Died Glen Innis
May have been married to Elizabeth
No Marriage on BDM
Issue Florence Roles b 1857 7284
Christopher M b 1859 6982 D 1903 43 yrs at Parramatta
Then married Harriett No marriage on BDM
Issue Clara Roles b 1876 21882
Rosetta " 1878 23781
Alice " 1880 26518
Albert L " 1884 19148
Yes Annie Adelaide married Issac Reece in 1861 2834
they had Jacob S b 1862 13377
Flora B 1863 13447 d 1864
Annie died in 1893 at Deepwater as far as I know.
Jocob S Reece m Francis collins 1883 19390- Step or half brother to William h Townsend
issue Margret Orcella B 1883 19390
William w B 1885 21647
Francis A B 1887 23109
Dorothy W B 1898 01542
Matilda B 1890 07050
James S B1892 07032
Fredrick J B 1893 07101
Emily E B 1895 20662
George H B 1901 20272
Charles H B 1901 20273 twins
Ivan E B 1904 10477
Ernie Reece died August or Septmber 1948 Lived at 21 Griffen Ave Tamworth
I am the youngest of thirteen children both my parent past away a long time ago.
I have to go now will send our 13 soon ok
Leonie
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Hi there Leonie, It might help to know that Whycombe napoleon was actually born Richard Wycombe Napoleon Townsend. That is as recorded on the birth certificate so I guess its been recorded wrong elsewhere.
As I too found the error. :)
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Hi Dianne - glad you got the papers. Please let me know if you ever have contact with the Bingara descendants.
Doesn't Annie look like her mother? She shows no Aboriginal physical characteristcs at all (nor her mother either) but one can't go on that of course. (you may be able to post the photos of Annie and Ellen)
Annie used her mpther's married name at her first marriage which seems to indicate that Ellen/Helen/etc may not have been in a legal relationship at the time. We seem to have no iindication that Benjamin MADDRAH, who we assume to have been Ellen's husband, ever came to Australia.
Good luck with the search
Judith
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Blimey don't know what I just did but lost what I had LOL
(*)
Now I have to get the details of everyones kids I never bothered to much before now. Can tell you that IN our family there is schizophrania ( Cant spell ) Hashimotos, heart dease and celiacs. God help us all and asthma is pretty prevalent.
I do love most of my family but a couple I dont.
There is conections to Bingara, Glenn Innis and Deepwater so check them areas out if you wish.
Gotta go so talk to ya later
Leonie
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Hi Judith and Everyone else....Id be here all day If I wrote all the names. Leonie I sent off a personal Message to you Did you get it?
Judith, As you say neither Annie or her mother show signs of being aboriginal but I am... I had a DNA, blood test done and I have an irregular percentage which is an indication of this.Fact: MY mother is 25 % aboriginal, so i should have 12.5% but I don't.... I have 15.625% which indicates that my mother and my father both have aboriginal blood in them. My mother is confirmed as 25%. ;) LOL
anyways my point. My paternal grandmother has no aboriginal blood in her and as for my grandfather well it has to be him because there is no other person :) of course only way of proving that is getting DNA which since he has been passed for well over 40 years isnt too likely.LOL
So, maybe there is some truth in it.. If I calculate that my father is 6.25% then his father is 12.5% and his father is 25% then that make WHycombe bla bla bla.im over writing his name is 50% and Annie Adelaide 100%.......UMMM SORRY not likely.hahaha :D but maybe we are hearing this all wrong..Is it her first husband that was part aboriginal or was it infact Willam Twonsend who was part aboriginal. i guess we will never know. anyway Jusith I will be getting in contact with some societies soon. I have been so busy with my little one starting KINDY :'( I miss her..SHHH dont tell anyone. :)
As for Ellen and her Husband Benjamin. It is my indication that Benjamin Maddrah never came to Australia, that he remarriedafter Ellen left and Married Matilda somweone... People eaarlier were assuming this to be Benjamins Father but the ages and the census records show that he is indeed the same person who married ellen bearcroft. Also have in my possession a divorce record.....As of today. :) This states that Benjamin Maddrah divorced Ellen due to her being Sentenced for Larceny. Ok does that help? Thats really all it sais. So after reading that I guess she is Ellen Bearcroft the convict.. No record of any of them and what were there last names? As noted earlier there was that adelaide anne or similar which Judith you mentioned you couldnt find anything but other than that we have nothing there.
Alrighty well i had better go so will chat again later.
Bye for now
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OKKKKKK :)
I may have something new. Apparently a common mis spelling for MADDRAH/MADRA is MATHER..
I have discovered an Ellen Mather from Yorkshire..same county a convict transported to Australia for Larceny. She is married and there are no other Mather or similar covicts of this nature.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?Table=Index+to+Certificates+of+Freedom&Surname=mather&First=ellen%25&Page=
if you go to BDM and search for ellen maddrah born 1813 then click on immigration it has 3 listings for her.
Maybe this is something
the reason i note this may be something is that she isnt listed anywhere on the 1841 census records for the UK.... maybe im barking up the wrong tree but its a thought
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I can not find benjamin on the 1841 census records either....so maybe they both missed that one
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Ellen Mather
Tried at York on 14 October 1839, sentence 7 years transportation , Larceny, before convicted of Felony. She was aged 24...
Arrived 23 March 1840 on the Surry/Surrey. Not sighted any mention of her marital status, nor if any children came with her.
Noticing that there's an earlier trial for same name and same age, again at York ... sentence imprisonment... trial was 5 July 1839, for larceny, so there may be two women of that name and age in York. ;)
I'm not sure though that either of those lasses were married women .... perhaps they were, perhaps both trials refer to the one lass, perhaps that lass was your missing lass ....
Cheers, JM
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Hi Just Moi,
Havent hear from you in ages. How are you? Well So you dont have to hand feed through the posts. Earlier there is an Ellen Bearcroft matching the same maiden name and age came to Australia as a convict in 1852. Ellen Maddrah possibly Mather came to Australia in 1840 ish. Correct me there. umm now there is no mention of ellen Maddrah in census records for 1841 but there is for an Ellen Bearcroft. It is of our understanding that Annie Adelaide Maddrah(her daughter) was born here in Australia in 1841/1842. In saying that then this woman would had to of been here in Australia. Although some other information states she arrived in 1852 how do we work that out I wonder.hmmmmmm
So many different things dont add up. Ellen Bearcroft had 4 children none of which there is any record for.
Ellen Bearcroft was MARRIED but had no children which seems accurate in 1839. She was married in 1839 in the same shire. JUST MOI one of those entries on Ancestry states she is married. it has M under the marriage column. :)
ANyone who might be able to help please feel free to hop in.
Di
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Oh Just Moi I would say that both of those charges were the same person as She was sentenced to 2 months imprisonment then she would have been released umm Sep then she commited again and was transported to Australia....hmmm
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Hello Dianne
Sorry I haven't been back in touch about the family tree - but I will (work pressures). I've had a quick look at the postings about the possible Aboriginal connection and should tell you that my mother-in-law's brother said his mother (Norah alias Kate) said there was Aboriginal blood in the family - but there are no more details (my M-in-L's favourite country by the way is the flat plains around the Darling River - Tilpa, Louth etc) . She also indicated that one of the son's of Richard Napoleon had an Aboriginal wife - I thought I knew which one but she seems to be confusing the brothers.
I think we can rule out Mary Jane Latimer (Richard's wife) as a possible Aboriginal source of DNA. She seems to have a direct British link through various records. Plus my husband had his mitochondrial DNA tested through Oxford Ancestors last year (this was done as an add-on related to testing for a medical issue on his father's side of the family - Chinese). Anyway the test showed he had a direct female line through to Europe - this line is through his mother then grandmother (Kate) then Mary Jane Latimer and her mother and so on. It doesn't say anything about Annie Adelaide or a whole lot of other family connections so the possibilities are still there.
We would be really interested to know where you got your DNA testing done. I'm sure we could talk M-in-L into this as well - could be interesting.
Cheers
Margaret
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Hi there, I just went to my doctor and asked for a blood test and they said they had to do a blood and dna analysis and now i have a pretty certificate saying Im aboriginal.You couldnt tell other than the myall way I talk sometimes. Things and words I say sometimes come out like an aboriginal person would say them. When i was a baby it was a dead give away and my oldest daughter is a throw back partially. her skin and her language is very indigenous. Well I know that Richard Henry Reece Richard napoleon's son My Grandad married an aboriginal woman by the name of Vera Daphney Murray They had a child and he went to jail for 7 years for murdering there child. So your mother in law seems to have her wits about her.She remembers a lot. Where abouts do you live?? <Maybe we could get together and share some info and try to get to the bottom of this together??? Im more than happy to. Let me know I sent you a message with my email and phone numbers etc. Please do give me a call or something or give me your number and i will call you.
Thanks Dianne
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Hello Dianne
I'm glad you've replied today. I was about to turn off the computer until next weekend. We thought it was your grandad who married the aboriginal woman and went to jail but I wasn't sure how much you knew so I was a bit hesitant about saying anything. I'll tell you a bit more in my email to you.
We live in the Blue Mountains, but mother-in-law doesn't, so everyone getting together is probably not practical at this stage. We are close to retirement though and we may be able to muster up grandma and come and see you sometime in the next year or so. She was quite excited that we'd made contact.
Will give the DNA testing through the local GP a go - we have a few unanswered questions on both sides of the family here.
Anyway I'll send you an email.
Margaret
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Hello ALL...thanks to a lovely resource. :) It has been discovered that after some more research myself... Ellen Beecroft who came here 1952 on the duchess of northumberland IS NOT the ellen we are looking for.
http://www.chriswoods.id.au/convictnames.htm
It appears that Ellen who came over as a convict 1840 is more likely. Can anyone tell me if the children born to female convicts were always registered births or is there anyway of finding out who was born in Female factories etc. As i suspect this would be the case.
DIANNE :)
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Information from Australian convict records re Ellen MATHER.
List of convicts with particulars:
Ellen MATHER, 24, Protestant, married, b Yorkshire, laundress and needlewoman, shoplifting, York Quarter Sessions, 14 October 1839, sentence 7 years, former sentence 2 monthsand 2 ditto, 4ft 61/2 inches, hazel eyes, light brown hair, complexion fair ruddy and a little freckled, mark of a burn under ear, small blue dot inside lower left arm, scar on back of forefinger of left hand.
England Criminal Register:
Trial at York Sessions, 3 July 1837
Ellen MATHER, 24, larceny, sentence two months - there doesn't seem to be an image for the second convictin.
Certificate of Freedom, January 1847.
Convict Number: 40/183
Ellen MATHER, b abt 1816
per ship Surrey, 1840
Native Place: Yorkshire
Calling: Laundress and needleworker
Offence: shoplifting
Place of trial: York city, 1839, sentence 7 years
Height 5ft 41/2 inches, fair ruddy complexion, brown eyes, dark grey eyes. Lost three upper teeth, upper lip hairy, scar back of little finger of left hand, ticket? of leave Jan 14, 1846
Judith
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Thnaks again Judith. it really seems as though We are stuck at her.LOL
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Hello Dianne
I've checked the Cascade Female Factory in Tasmania. The only record there is for Ellen Beecroft who I think you've decided is not the person we're looking for.
As far as I can see there is no on-line database for the Parramatta Female Factory. I've wondered if this is a possibility as Annie Adelaide was supposed to have been born at Parramatta. There is a microform index for the factory covering 1826-1848 that I can apparently access at my local library. I can give this a try later this week unless someone else has easier and faster access.
I'll reply to your email asap - its been one of those weekends.
Margaret
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... As far as I can see there is no on-line database for the Parramatta Female Factory. I've wondered if this is a possibility as Annie Adelaide was supposed to have been born at Parramatta. There is a microform index for the factory covering 1826-1848 that I can apparently access at my local library. I can give this a try later this week unless someone else has easier and faster access.....
Hi there,
I too had searched for any online database for the Parramatta Female Factory, and not found a database. So, after reading your post, I have just tried the NSW State Records Archive Investigator search engine and found a possible clue "Monthly Returns of Attendents and Patients" ..... between 1 Aug 1838 and 9 Feb 1844... Its based on the rations supplied by the Contractor. There's also mention on same index reference, TWO daily detailed accounts regarding a) provisions and b) Medical comforts" ....
The webpage notes "Item lists are not available electronically
Series number: 1095 Title: Parramatta - Female Factory Hospital, General Hospital, Convict Hospital: Stores accounts
Here's the link ...(use the simple search, and key words "Parramatta Female Factory"
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Search.aspx
I think it would need a visit to the Kingswood (near Penrith NSW) Archives to actually view the records, but perhaps there will be success with those attendence sheets ...
Cheers, JM
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I should have posted this info I received from the Tasmanian researcher which I think has put the Tassie Ellen BEECROFT right out of the picture.
Apparently Tassie Ellen's English husband is recorded as William (which does not match her stated husband Benjamin :D), but there is no indication whether BEECROFT is her married or maiden name.
Ellen BEECROFT married the Thomas LYONS in Tasmania but the researcher cannot find them after their marriage.
As I said to Dianne - this lady was so free and easy with her Christian names perhaps she just used names she knew from Yorkshire :o Nothing would surprise me!
Judith
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Hello Dianne
Sorry I haven't been back in touch about the family tree - but I will (work pressures). I've had a quick look at the postings about the possible Aboriginal connection and should tell you that my mother-in-law's brother said his mother (Norah alias Kate) said there was Aboriginal blood in the family - but there are no more details (my M-in-L's favourite country by the way is the flat plains around the Darling River - Tilpa, Louth etc) . She also indicated that one of the son's of Richard Napoleon had an Aboriginal wife - I thought I knew which one but she seems to be confusing the brothers.
I think we can rule out Mary Jane Latimer (Richard's wife) as a possible Aboriginal source of DNA. She seems to have a direct British link through various records. Plus my husband had his mitochondrial DNA tested through Oxford Ancestors last year (this was done as an add-on related to testing for a medical issue on his father's side of the family - Chinese). Anyway the test showed he had a direct female line through to Europe - this line is through his mother then grandmother (Kate) then Mary Jane Latimer and her mother and so on. It doesn't say anything about Annie Adelaide or a whole lot of other family connections so the possibilities are still there.
We would be really interested to know where you got your DNA testing done. I'm sure we could talk M-in-L into this as well - could be interesting.
Cheers
Margaret
Hi there,
I stumbled across this thread. I was researching a friend's tree and we were looking for an Aboriginal ancestor. The thing is, I couldn't find anything solid but he does have Mary Jane Latimore/Latimer in the tree. I have her marrying Johann Karthegene who's name ends up as John Halligan. They married in Waverly. There is a later marriage of Mary Jane to a Reece and she dies Mary Jane Reece. Her and John lived at Narrabri, Redfern, Bondi, etc
Caroline
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Hi Caroline,
Which thread??? Couldn't see a link. Yes, Mary died a Reece, Reece is my great grandad. Will chat more soon.
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Hello Everyone - just some replies to several postings:
1. To Caroline - you're info about Mary Jane Latimer is correct. I detailed a bit more of her history on Friday 1st January Reply 106 - page 8 or 9 I think.
2. For JM - I'm close to the archives at Kingswood and I could investigate the "Monthly Returns of Attendants and Patients" at the Female Factory Parramatta. It will be a few weeks though before I can do this - I don't have a week day off work for a while.
3. For Dianne and others - I've had a look at the microfiche for the Female Factory Parramatta this week. I've looked up every possible spelling I can think of for Bearcroft/Becroft, Madderah/Mudderah and Steel/Steele etc and I couldn't find anything useful. The microfiche reader is however very old and not too clear and I apologise if I have missed anything, but I did search through it twice. Is there another name I should try? I really don't want to start at the A's and work through on the chance Ellen might be there under yet another name but I will if anyone thinks it might be useful.
From what I could see though the microfiche only covers female convicts. I don't think other women who were at the factory to give birth etc are included so its still possible that Annie Adelaide may have been born there. It's possible that the Monthly Returns that JM has located might be useful.
Sorry I haven't more positive news.
Margaret
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Many thanks, I have printed off this thread and will read through all the info. outback_thunda has also been very helpful. A few things are falling into place here, cant believe I found you all! Amazing.
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2. For JM - I'm close to the archives at Kingswood and I could investigate the "Monthly Returns of Attendants and Patients" at the Female Factory Parramatta. It will be a few weeks though before I can do this - I don't have a week day off work for a while.
3. For Dianne and others - I've had a look at the microfiche for the Female Factory Parramatta this week. I've looked up every possible spelling I can think of for Bearcroft/Becroft, Madderah/Mudderah and Steel/Steele etc and I couldn't find anything useful. The microfiche reader is however very old and not too clear and I apologise if I have missed anything, but I did search through it twice. Is there another name I should try? I really don't want to start at the A's and work through on the chance Ellen might be there under yet another name but I will if anyone thinks it might be useful.
From what I could see though the microfiche only covers female convicts. I don't think other women who were at the factory to give birth etc are included so its still possible that Annie Adelaide may have been born there. It's possible that the Monthly Returns that JM has located might be useful.
Sorry I haven't more positive news.
Margaret
Hi Margaret,
Umm if you could look at Kingswood it would be appreciated. No rush of course. Also did you look under Mather for the female factory microfische???
UMM ANYWAYS i have to run, will type mpre soon.
hope you are all well.
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Hi Margaret,
I have been to Kingswood searching for John Halligan (Khartegene)'s records in the Paramatta Hospital for the Insane. As he died there in 1900 and there is a 110 year embargo I didn't quite get to see the records. I wanted to check for 1898 but they wouldnt let me as there was embargoed material on the same film and they didn't have time to do it for me. (so i went back to Armidale with zip.) Anyway another couple of years have passed and we kjnow that he died there 13 April 1900, so if you had some spare time (never happens in an archives) could you have a look. There is a film with admissions etc. He is Burried in the roman catholic section of Rookwood. You can message me for details of his death, not sure how much we should put here.? There is a short period between his death and the birth of his son George which to me doesn't quite add up. Thus I would like to find out when he was admitted to Paramatta.
I have been researching this for a friend and I tell you it has been an interesting tree and just gets more interesting. The Indigenous heritage has been avenue of interest throughout.
Cheers,
Caroline
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Hello Caroline
I can check on the death record of John Halligan at the Kingswood archives for you. I hadn't followed up on this earlier as he's not in the direct family line I assembled for mother-in-law. She thought that he'd died in Sydney possibly in a rail accident and that it was shortly after the birth of George, but perhaps it was before. Do you happen to have the exact birth date for George?
We didn't know that he was in the Parramatta Hospital for the Insane. This is a bit of a co-incidence as we're looking for Ellen Maddrah/Mather etc at the Parramatta Women's Factory. This institution became the Insane Hospital when the Women's Factory closed (1847 or thereabouts I think).
Anyway I'll add your request to the things to check up on in the archives in a few weeks time.
Margaret
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Hello Dianne
I went through all the M's on the Female Factory Microfiche but when it wasn't one of the Maddrah spellings I was looking for a child attached to a convict. I can go back later this week and have another look for Mather. Will also see if I can find out anything more about her when I go to the archives in a few weeks time.
Cheers
Margaret
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Gee Margarate, that would be great, but only if you have time. His ancestry is a real mystery. The family story was that he may have had afgan heritage. On all the certificates it states born in Italy.
Regarding Paramatta hospital for the Insane, if you ever come across a Sarah Shepherd who may or may not be a widow by that stage, let me know. It would be somewhere between 1856-1870. There is a family story she died there. More likely earlier rather than later in those years.
Cheers,
Caroline
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She thought that he'd died in Sydney possibly in a rail accident and that it was shortly after the birth of George, but perhaps it was before. Do you happen to have the exact birth date for George?
We didn't know that he was in the Parramatta Hospital for the Insane.
I have George's birth certificate. Date of birth is 11 September 1900. John dies 10 April 1900. Mary is the informant and signs her name with a mark. Winessed by A W Childs and W McGrath.
C
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Hi all,
Sorry have been out of touch with all this rain and flooding etc. The info we are looking for seems to be always just that BIT out of reach. We will get there oneday. i have given myself a little break from the tree at the moment but please do keep in touch and if i discover anymore will be sure to let you know. Does anyone have a friend or relative that knows much about video camera memory sticks??? I have somehow lost all the video of my little girls and im devastated to say the least. it just dissapeared of the card. I feel absolutely i dont know but feel like everything is gone :(
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Hello Caroline
Thanks for the information about George's birth - so Mary Jane was in the early stages of pregnancy when husband John died.
I asked mother-in-law about this again and she says that her mother Nora (Mary Jane's daughter) told her that John went to Sydney with his son Christopher. After John died, Christopher apparently went missing causing Mary Jane considerable distress (as you can imagine particularly after the death of her husband). Christopher managed to eventually find his way back home (we don't know how). She was very surprised that John had died at the insane hospital and now she wonders if he went there for treatment. Perhaps the trip to the Archives (in a few weeks time) will help with this.
Anyway M-I-L then said that Christopher had then died in an accident in the Hunter River. I found the account of this accident (Google Christopher Halligan and Prawning) but it can't be the same Christopher - the drowned one died in 1952 aged 34 and NSW B,D and M indicate that his mother was Isabella. I found the death record of the actual Christopher William Halligan, John and Mary Jane's son in 1967 (he was born in 1887) - so obviously a mistaken identity has occurred here. I don't know if the drowned Christopher is related without getting the actual certificate. I did locate a marriage record for an Isabella to a Christopher Halligan but his middle initial is listed as J, not W. Can you shed any light on this?
Thanks again for your help
Margaret
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Hello Dianne
I've had another look at the microfiche for the Women's factory at Parramatta. Went through all the "B"s and "M"s again and double checked for an Ellen Mather, but I still can't find anything - sorry.
Perhaps when I look at the other records at the Kingswood Archives in a few weeks time I might have more luck. If there's anything else you'd like me to check let me know sometime in the next couple of weeks.
Cheers
Margaret
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Interesting indeed about Christopher being down in Sydney with him. I wonder why he was there? I would imagine that Johns symptoms must have required care. I will message you more about this. Poor Mary having to deal with her son missing at that time.
I don't have much on Christopher I am afraid I will check if I found a grave or not. I found Mary's and photographed it.
A lot of questions have been answered but still quite a few to go...
I have found a similar mystery in my hubby's tree as well. More mysterious and unlikely to solve unfortunately. 50 years earlier with no father's name on the birth certificate..
If i come up with something I will let you know.
C
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Ok, found a photo of a grave with Chirstopher W Halligan, Isabella and Christopher jrn, (says drowned). Will send to you. Sandgate cemetary Newcastle.
Regards,
Caroline
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Hello Caroline
Thanks for the information about the Christophers. I suspected that B, D, M may have had the wrong middle initial for Chris senior and that the other Chris was possibly his son. Mother-in-law must have fused the two together in her mind.
Cheers
Margaret
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Hi there Yes Christopher Halligan JNR is the son of the Christopher William Halligan..I have photo's of these graves on Ancestry I believe they are from when i went and visited and looked for these photos. i did like 15 cemeteries in 1 week. MY OH MY what a week.LOL
Ok well to draw this thread out some more :) :)
I have just spoken to a LIVING REECE..decendant of the said Annie Adelaide and Isaac Reece and she informs that she is under the impression that Annie was only actually 13ish when she married Isaac(which ties in with my THOUGHTS) although I can't find a birth record if she was 13ish when married in 1861 then she would have been born the year or year after annie came out of the Convict thing and given her ticket of leave or whatever you call it.
Hmmm just smething to ponder.
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Hello JM and Caroline
I've been to the State Records at Kingswood and located the Monthly Returns for the Parramatta Female Factory. Unfortunately it's just lists of how many people were provided with meals etc, how many new women arrived or others left, and then lots of 'grocery' lists of supplies provided each day (tea, sugar, meat etc). There are no names sorry.
I also found some 4 years of names of discharged convicts, staff etc right at the end of the life of the factory but there was no-one there with any of the names for Ellen/Helen that we have been looking at.
The archivist told me that there are hardly any records left of that institution - so I'm sorry but I've drawn a blank there. If anyone can think of anything else I can look for there, let me know.
Sorry to disappoint you all,
Margaret
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Hello Caroline
I've been able to access some records for the Parramatta Hospital for the Insane. Have checked the Register of Patients for the years 1848 to 1889 and I couldn't find a Sarah Shepherd - there was only an Isabella Shepherd who died in 1879.
I was however able to see the entry for John Halligan. There is just a single line entry in the register and the archivist told me there is nothing more. So the details are:
Register number: 3610
Admission date: 3rd January 1900
Date of Death: 10th April 1900 (7pm)
Birth Place: Italy (then there is 30 years written - this can't be his age, or time in the colony - not sure what it means)
Religion: Roman Catholic
Occupation: "Engine Driver"
Cause of death: General Paralysis of the Insane
Two things come out of this. Firstly 'General Paralysis of the Insane' is a nasty form of tertiary syphilis that leads to dementia and death (sometimes quickly or up to 3 years). It apparently still accounts today for some 15 - 20% of male admissions to mental institutions. He couldn't have had a pleasant ending
My second comment is that I agree with you in questioning the timing of the birth of his last son. Without requoting figures here but keeping in mind the admission date, travel time to the hospital, state of health prior to this and the contagious nature of the disease, something certainly doesn't add up.
Hope this is helpful to you - though it's probably raised another big question. Just part of the course with this family.
Margaret
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Hi Margaret,
Many many thanks for your work on this. It has helped a great deal. Now to put on my thinking cap....
Regards,
Caroline
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Hi
My Son is Jacob Lawrence Reece, he was to be called Jacob Steele Reece after the first Reece to moved to Bingara in NSW. (He is named Lawrence after my father)
I am David Reece my father was Lawrence Reece and his father Linton Bruce Reece all resided in Bingara NSW. My mother still lives there and there is a federation Families Book on Bingara that has all the history.
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Hi David,
Thanks for that info, it is very helpful. Is that the exact title of the book. Sounds interesting indeed.
Regards,
Caroline
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Steely Reece was bought to Bingara aged 5 in 1865 from a small town near scone, his mother was Annie Adeliade Reece(nee Maddrah)
Bingara Federation Families
a Social study of family life in a country town 1890's to 1930's edited by Ron Irlam
You can buy it from the Bingara News Agents.
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Hi everyone,
Found the book at the regional archives here in Armidale. The photographs are nice that accompany the chapter. Outback Thunder, have you seen this book?
Cheers,
C
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Hi ladies I'm back. I have been trawling and I just had this horrible feeling of Blimey what have I done? I also had a feeling of have I wasted the last year researching the wrong man and also what I achieved yesterday did I intact get that all wrong. For some silly reason I decided to read this whole thread and this post stood out. We are all here if your still with me in this journey looking for Annie Adelaide to be born here or to be here miraculously etc etc. None of it makes sense really. I'm going to rummage but we believed that Benjamin maddrah was the father of Annie, below is the details from judb trip to the archives. The statement that gets me is her father is William . There was a William maddrah/madderah transported to Australia as a convict from York...... Is it possible that this man is her father. It would make a lot more sense if he was but that still doesn't answer how Ellen got here and whether she is the 1839 convict or the 1852 convict to Australia. So ladies if you may. I lost again. :).
Had a good trawl through various records at the Nat Library earlier in the week.
Firstly, the passenger list Melbourne-Tasmania 1852 showed Henry ADELAIDE, 40 and Anne ADELAIDE, 26 on the Eucalyptus arriving Hobart 22 Apr 1852. Looks unlikely.
Secondly, some publications from the Bingara Historical Society which are fascinating and I would strongly suggest you get in contact with them. One article even had a list of the 7 descendant families still in the district - possibly with a mine of information. Whoo-hoo - another Christian name for Ellen!!
All of this info is in the publications and I have no idea how reliable it is but here are two pertinent extracts:
Jacob Steel REECE b 1860 at or near Scone NSW; came to Bingara, 1865. Mother became a teacher at the first school in Bingara.
The STEELE family: Isaac STEELE (origins Bourne, near Leeds, England) arrived in Brisbane in 1857 on the Parsee. 18 January 1858, married Maria Green from Hampshire who had also arr Brisbane 1857. Stayed in Brisbane till moving to Inverell district in 1886. (My comment - this is a bit bizarre as we have Helen/Ellen/Orella calling herself Helen STEEL at Annie's wedding in 1861 in Scone, and dying with the STEELE surname - I think it may be just a co-incidence of surnames, as this Isaac STEELE seems to have no connection with Helen or her husband Jacob)
Then there are these biographical details:
ANNIE ADELAIDE REECE (nee MADDRAH), dau of William and Hosella 'Ellen', stepdaughter of Jacob Steele, b c1845, d1893 Emmaville, m (1) Isaac Reece, 1861 Scone, (2) William Townsend regd 1869 Warialda. Isaac and Annie left Scone and came to Bingara around 1864-5, where Annie became a teacher in Bingara's first school.
HOSELLA/ORELLA/ELLEN STEELE (formerly MADDRAH, nee BEARCROFT) b c1812, d1883 Bingara, bur Bingara m (1) ? Maddrah, (2) Jacob Steele. Jacob and Ellen left Scone and came to Bingara around 1864-5 and settled out on the Narrabri Rd. Jacob was an early Bingara builder and cabinet maker.
So - another name for her, and you can see how 'Hosella' could have turned into 'Ursula' on the cert Margaret has.
I found a photo of her granddaughter’s grave in Warialda cemetery with her name shown as Hosella Margaret McCaw. She seems to be in the NSW BMDs as Margaret Orselle McCaw
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=3987016
Did we have Annie’s death?
1893 Annie Townsend, father Jacob, mother Ellen, registered at Emmaville, #5706
The Bingara publications have a photo of Annie and also a photo of Hosella/Ellen/Helen/Ursula/Orella
Cheers, Judith
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Heavens - well found!!! Sometimes it's very worthwhile to have a slow re-read! ::)
William MADDERAH
convicted City of York, 19 January 1829, sentenced to 7 years transportation.
Voyage date: 26 December 1829, ship: Nithsdale
There are three entries for William MADDERAH on the English Criminal Registers:
1822 convicted of larceny, York, sentence 3 months imprisonment and whipped
1825, found not guilty of larceny, York
1829, convicted of larceny, York, 19 January 1829, sentenced to 7 years transportation.
Prison Hulk Registers show:
William MADDERAH
Age: 23
Date Received: 22 Oct 1829
Ship:1. Ganymede, moored at Chatham; 2 Retribution, moored at Woolwich
Convicted: 19 Jan 1829 at York, stealing 1 pair of shoes
Character noted: 2 convictions, connections v bad, behaved well in gaol
Ticket of Leave dated 9 August, 1834
Occupation: labourer
Description: height 5ft 4 3/4 ins
hair, brown
eyes, grey
complexion, ruddy.
In 1831 or 1832 he was employed by John GAGGIN at Windsor.
I can't see the exact date but his pardon was granted 1834-1838.
This chap seems a distinct possibility!
Judith
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NSW on-line indexes show:
William MADDERAH
transported: Nithsdale 1830
34/889 Ticket of Leave [4/4095; Reel 922]
District: Patricks Plains;
Born: York;
Trade: Weaver waterman;
Tried: York QS
TROVE gives the date of his Certificate of Freedom as December 1836
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2208364
Judith
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Thanks judb, funny how something can be right under your nose and you don't even think about it.
I'm going to go with The Ellen convict that came to Australia for the 1839 crimes. I have a theory, I don't know how accurate it is. Having came across this info but. I'm under the distinct impression that Ellen married Benjamin and William is his brother, there are 2 possible William madras's from the area that would be of an appropriate age to be transported.. Benjamin and ellen had a child Richard maddrah who died as an infant. 1839.Ellen Mather I believe is the index
Now, I can not find what happened to William madderah after his pardon in 1836, I have been searching non stop.
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Hi again on the bottom of the marriage cert for Benjamin and Ellen it sais
Married in the said parish church according to the rites and ceremonies of the (this bit I handwritten) established churchly banns. By me Edward John baines vicar
Witness Margaret maddrah and Thomas ???? Ellis possibly
What does all that mean?
I just went though every certificate and there is not 1 record of her stating her father as Benjamin maddrah or any maddrah for that sake. Obviously Benjamin being the only maddrah we could find made a hell of a lot of sense.considering he married a Ellen Beecroft. Who would have thought you would come to Australia and possibly have a child with your brother in law.... Maybe ...
I dunno any other scenarios.
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Both of the tranposrtations are really out that we had, the 1840 Ellen Mather was Ellen Mather in 1837 as well, so I assume since not married until 1839 most likely not her. And the other one really makes it to late, she had to be born in the 40s. Hmmm
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Hello everyone
I'm glad you're back on to the Madderah family. I gave up on the research because I didn't think that Bejamin was Annie Adelaide's father. The dates just don't work. I think that it's more likely to be his brother William. I mentioned William in my couple of first postings (nos 92 and 97) in 2009 - on page 10, but as I couldn't find a further reference to him after he received his Certificate of Freedom in 1836, I figured I must have been wrong. I shouldn't have given up on this - sorry.
William's Certificate of Freedom says he was last in the district of Patricks Plains. I think I looked up lists of convicts for that area and couldn't find him but maybe I didn't look thoroughly enough - is it worth another try? Judith mentioned that in 1831 or 1832 he worked for John Gaggin at Windsor. That's a lead at least.
So what do you think girls? Do we try to follow William Madderah or does the evidence still point towards Benjamin?
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Hi Margaret glad to see you. Hadn't given up, I have uncovered a lot in the last few days. Trust me I took the maddrah line back to the 1600s.
Scenario 1.
It appears Ellen married Benjamin maddrah in 1839 and came here as Ellen Mather in 1840. Convict. They had a child Richard maddrah who died as an infant 1839. And she had Annie in her tummy and from there the rest we know except her birth.
Problems with scenario 1. The 1840 convict had a prior conviction in 1837 as Ellen Mather she wasn't married until 1839 but hence the child was born only a few oaths after or before the wedding. Don't have details on hand. Secondly if Annie was I her tummy then she would have been born in 1841 and there is no trace of her ever being born anyway.
Scenario 2. Ellen married Benjamin in 1839 and had Richard and the got here somehow. Buggers me. Met her brother in law William and ended up doing the hanky panky. And along came Annie still no birth record maybe the mother used the married name maddrah so as she didn't look bad back then.
Problems with this scenario 2. What happened to William? Other than that Ellen must have been a convict otherwise why would you up and leave your husband and come to Australia?
Scenario 3. Ellen came here somehow as Ellen bearcroft or whatever she wanted to be and met William maddrah and so forth
Problems with scenario 3. None, I just wish i knew which 1 it was.
Margaret I'm sorry for overlooking your info. Can you please get in contact and pm me your name and number, maybe we can have a chat on the phone. Some of your info might click with me.
And yes where in the world Did William madderah get to aftter 1836? yes Windsor isn't all that far from scone where Annie married her first husband. I'm really starting to think William is the father but surely he has other decendants. Id you have any photos of that era Margaret?
Definitely worth a try looking again Margaret. I'm coming to Sydney to the archives for a week in June. I'm hoping to find out info then
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The child of Ellen and Benjamin Richard was born in Apr,may,June quarter and they were married in the same quarter. So I guess they had to have been together a while, maybe Ellen convict is a possible
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Hi guys,
Patricks Plains is now called Tamworth and Bingara and Emmaville are both around 130kms away.
Glad to see you back at it Outback. Let me know if you need me to check any original docs from the C of E registers for the region (emmaville). I will be at the regional archives from time to time through January.
Caroline
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Hi ladies in 1848 in nsw. There is a erro. They have placed the name in the surname box. There is an Ann unknown, Ann being the surname with an unknown mother and father. This would coincide with margaretes theory Annie was only 13 or 14 when she was married for the first time. Also when married in 1869. She only aged by a few years and I believe that age also coincides? Anyone?
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Hello Dianne and Judith
Just thought I'd mention that I think I pieced together the origins and first marriage with some 6 children of Mary Jane Latimore (Latimer), wife of Richard Napoleon. It was tricky to trace because her first husband was Italian (Johann Karthegene) and his surname became increasingly anglicised as each child was born. He worked and possibly died on the railways and Richard seems to have to come to the young family's rescue.
As I've mentioned before it's a while since I looked at this history and I'd probably like to double check it but if both or either of you are interested I'd be happy to email it on.
Happy New Year again
Margaret
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Hi Reece Rels,
I just googled Johann Karthegene and up your chat came. Poor old John Halligan (Johann Karthegene) died in the Parramatta Asylum, having become insane from the last stages of the unmentionable disease.
The record is available on request from the NSW state archives office. There is quite a good description of him in the records. I don't think his wife knew where he was or that he had died.
I was having trouble finding the birth records of the six children except Rose and George but I read that someone had found all the certificates. Were they registered under a different last name spelling?
Latimore has at least six variations. I'm not convinced Karthegene is the real name as both Johann and Mary Jane were illiterate and we can only rely on the hearing of the Officiating Minister. The other mystery on the wedding certificate is Patrick Costello's claim to be the stepfather of Mary Jane, but so far I have found no record of his marriage to Eliza Latimore.
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I FOUND SOMETHING I FOUND SOMETHING........ :) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=91
is it something someone please tell me its something,...
Ok its probably not something.
Hi,
Jacob Steele Reece was my grandmothers father Annie Adelaide Marddrah was his mother.
Hosella Steel(E) was Annies mother She does not appear to be the convict transported to Tassie as Annie was born in Parramatta in 1842. Dates do not match. Hosella is registered in NSW deaths as orsella & is interred in Bingara cemetry NSW. Four of Jacobs children were struck down in1919 with Spanish flu. Three adults including Weston & Fredrick and one of the girls Matilda I think but don't quote me as well as an infant. I have very good photos of Hosella & Annie Adelaide. Annie was the first teacher at Bingara school and they are celebrating its birth this week
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Isaac Reece Annies father left the marraige and went to live near Mudgee NSW where his father Isaac senior resided. Annie had two children to Isaac. Jacob Steele Reece and a girl child who died in infancy.
Annie Adelaide then married William Townsend in Inverell NSW and had 5 children the eldest being Richard. He is a Townsend not a Reece.Annie Adelaide is interred at Emmaville NSW as Annie Adelaide Townsend. Annie & her Mother and stepfather Jacob Steel(e) moved to Bingara NSW when Jacob (Steely) Reece was six.
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Hi shardy, yes. Was born a Townsend but later in life use the name Reece. He died as a richard Napolean Whycombe Townsend Reece. And his children were born Reece. This is were the confusion came about. How are you related can I ask. I am the Great Grandaughter of Richard Townsend/ Reece. His son was Richard Reece then my dad and me. Welcome to the chat by the way.
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Hi to you too,
I am the great great grandaughter of Annie Adelaide Maddrah-Reece Townsend . Her first born was Jacob Steele Reece my mothers grandfather . Mums mother was Dorothy Winnefred Reece who was Jacobs(Steely) Reeces )daughter.
Isaac Reeece jnr Annies father deserted her I believe. So maybe she was pregnant with Richard Napolian Whycombe . Maybe he really was a Reece. Wish I could talk to the dead and get some genuine answers. Where do you live . I live 140kms from Darwin NT Australia
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Hi I live in central qld and yes I oo wish I could ask the dead some questions. My email is * if you could email me we may be able to swap some resources. I am working slowly on the tree again as I'm due to have our fourth child . Hear from you soon :)
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Hi guys,
Patricks Plains is now called Tamworth and Bingara and Emmaville are both around 130kms away.
Glad to see you back at it Outback. Let me know if you need me to check any original docs from the C of E registers for the region (emmaville). I will be at the regional archives from time to time through January.
Caroline
Patricks Plains is Singleton, not Tamworth.
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Jacob Steele Reece was my grandmothers father Annie Adelaide Marddrah was his mother.
Hosella Steel(E) was Annies mother
Jacob Steele Reece also had a daughter called Hosella.
I have very good photos of Hosella & Annie Adelaide. Annie was the first teacher at Bingara school and they are celebrating its birth this week
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The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954) (about) Previous issueSaturday 17 October 1931Next issuePrevious pagePage 14 Go of 22Next page Send to:
17 Oct 1931 - DEATH OF MR. J. S. REECE. BINGARA, Friday.
nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16808125
The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954) ... he was a son of the late Mr. and Mrs. Isaac Reece, and resided continuously in the district for 64 years.
DEATH OF MR. J. S. REECE.
BINGARA, Friday.
The death occurred In Sydney of Mr. Jacob
Steel Recce, 69 years, farmer and grazier, and
pioneer of the Bingara district, Bom at King-
dom Pond, Scone, he was a son of the late
Mr. and Mrs. Isaac Reece, and resided con-
tinuously in the district for 64 years. For
some years he was manager of the Australian
Diamond Mines at Bingara. Later Mr. Reece
took up land, known as Broad Acre, which he
retained until his death. He was a well-
known stock breeder and dealer. He leaves
a wife and five sons-Messrs. James Steel
Reece, Sydney: Charles Reece, Mosman post-
office, Sydney: George Reece, Ivan Reece,
and Ronald Reece, of Bingara-and five
daughters-Mrs. McCaw, Warialda railway;
Mrs. Len Sawyer, Dalveen, Queensland; Mrs,
Turner, Dalby (Queensland); Mrs. Walter
Meyall, Walgett; and Mrs. Aubrey Reading,
Bingara. For many years he had assisted in
any class of sport, and as a mark of apprecia-
tion for his valued services the various sport-
ing bodies marched in front of the cortege
to the graveside. The Rev. S. C. Wiseman,
officiated, and the remains were interred in
the Church ol England portion of the Bingara
Cemetery. I am related Thru Judith Julia Mc Kenna nee WARD nee REECE Born 1831 sister to Isaac REECE
In May 1839 (Immigration records) state that Isaac made some effort to have his children - Isaac 9, Judith 8 and Edwin 5 looked after. There is a letter from Immigration office to the Colonial Secretary requesting their admission to the Orphan Home.I do not have a copy of this