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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: dalek39 on Wednesday 25 November 09 04:06 GMT (UK)
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Can someone help me with James Nelson .born 1836 England ..was convicted at Malta.and court martialed in.1859 for shooting at a senior officer, received 10 years transportation to Western Australia..arriving on the ship Palmerston..1861 Perth West.Aust...He later married a Mary Jane Donovan in Perth 1869 and moved to Adelaide South Australia.. They had 2 children in Perth..and four children in Adelaide....I am unable to trace him from there, or, where he was born, and where they are buried..in South Australia...He is my Great Grandfather..Dalek39.
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He later married a Mary Jane Donovan in Perth 1969,
Presume you mean 1869 ;D
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Celia....................Yes thats right....sorry about that.. I received a message re looking in the Army records...we have emailed..AND written to the Archives about one month ago..heard nothing, apart from a receipt of our email...thats why I'm here....asking you good people for help.'Unfortunately, I dont have much on him apart from his conviction notice. and his connection to Perth Western Australia..
.I am guessing he may have been in the army to get court martialed... ???
Mary Donovan (wife) was also born in England 1845 she is also hard to find..at this moment in time....
I have a couple of death notices for a James Nelson in Adelaide, checked them out, and am doubtful from the dates it is him...so...I know he died, ;D but where. ???
:)
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I am unable to help you with army records.
I cannot identify a death for either James NELSON b.1836 or Mary Jane NELSON b. 1845 in the SA death indexes.
Do you have James and Mary's parents' names? They would be listed on their marriage certificate.
1869
NELSON James
DONOVAN Mary
District Perth Reg#3023
I have searched the 1909 South Australian Electoral Roll and there is no listing with James NELSON and Mary Jane NELSON at the same address.
I cannot find any marriages for their children in the South Australian Marriage Index to 1937 - Emily Rose, Mary Jane, Ellen, Annie, Flora or Henry.
From whom are you descended? Perhaps if you had your grandparents' place of marriage it may help :-\ :-\
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks Cando..but before I fill you in on the details, I am getting other peoples posts sent to me..Have contacted a moderator, so will see what happens...
Now... I think I told you the details of his transportation to West.Australia, if not let me know... I have their marriage certificate, and its dated 22 Nov.1869..Perth Western Australia....James Nelson..Saddler..his.father, James nelson..publican.. Mary Donovan..spinster..servant...Perth...father..John Donovan..Painter...
Had two children in Perth...Mary Jane..born Perth 1872..certificate No.13728.
Emily Rose..." " 1874. " No.10654
Adelaide.............Ellen Nelson. 17 Mar 1877 (Bk 180.pg 421)I doubt if they left Adelaide
Annie nelson 13 FEB.1879 (215..pg 147)
Flora Nelson 3 Oct. 1881 (Bk.270 pg38)
Henry nelson 18 Dec. 1887.....Bk 408 pg122)
died 22 July 1888..aged 8 months (bk 172 pg229)
Flora Nelson was my grandmother..she married Alfred Henry Donovan ( Alice Hankins son) 14 Mar. 1905..Christchurch NZ...
That is all I have...... sorry I cant help you any more with dates....
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Cando...is there a possibility that they could have gone to NZ to be with their daughter Flora, whos' husband died at 47, and the family came back to Australia...and lived in Adelaide...
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The details of James' transportation to WA in your initial posting on this thread.
I will leave you to search in NZ. Have you traced Flora's siblings? If so, did they marry in NZ?
I suppose you had noted the 3rd birth [stillbirth] registered to James and Mary in WA?
Cheers
Cando
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Yes I did know about the still born in WA.. but did not put that in, sorry...and Floras' siblings are, Norman Donovan..Inez.Donovan /Soloman/.and Nola Donovan/ Adams.., my mother..so I have their DOB and DOD which were all in NZ...and there are no other rellies living over there that I know of...well, not of their generation to ask...I have a cousin, in Adelaide, but all his documents re the family were unfortunately destroyed by a "hostile" member of the family. :'( anyway..will see what I can come up with...and get back to you :)
I do have all the information of his records in Western Australia. not much on that, except time of detention etc...and his marriage certificate..do want any details on that?
Also. we have written off to the National Archives, one month ago..and...are still waiting to "hear" from them ::) ???
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The only one of Flora's children to marry in NZ was Norman..both girls married in Adelaide..Australia.
They came out to Australia..with my grandmother, when my grandfather died in 1926, my mother was 10..Norman who was 9 years older, stayed behind, most likely working at that time...that is a mystery why he didn't come with the rest of the family...we were never told...
Ihave searched most of the cemetries in South Australia..coming up with a James and Mary Nelson buried at a place called Burra...SAust..but the dates dont appear to be them...but, who knows...Burra is north of Adelaide... There are two other James Nelsons buried in Adelaide Cemetries, but they are also questionable. ::) I cant believe they left no trace...One thing, I do have a photo of old James taken in Adelaide. with a child, most likely one of the grandchildren, but, who , I dont know.....where ??? and he looked about 80,
I'll rattle my brains for any more, but.. ::) ??? anyway...thanks for your help..much appreciated :)
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I'm not having a good day today. I was in the middle of "chatting" when it dropped out...start again.. :'(
There are soooooooooo many James Nelson's born in 1863...which makes it hard to locate unless we get his day/month of birth as well...same with Mary (wife) as she was a Donovan before marriage, but I have discovered that her middle name was Jane.....Mary Jane Donovan / Nelson.. so I will just have to wait till the Archives on his Convict details come fourth...they may have dates, other than discriptions.
I have them...but...thats not enough.. ::) anyway..will plod on..who knows what we'll "dig up"...(sorry about that) ;D :)
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There are soooooooooo many James Nelson's born in 1863.
Oops don't you mean he was born 1836.
I was actually referring to Flora's siblings [sisters] not her children. Have you traced them at all? Your online tree gives little info about them. Of course the tree may not be up to date.
Gosh aren't you doing it the hard way...trying to find graves before finding the death regs ;D
If your grandmother returned to Adelaide in 1926 your gt grandfather would have been 90 years old as you wrote he was born 1836.
Are there any identifying marks on the photograph ie is it a studio photo?
There is a death of a Mary [no Jane] NELSON in Adelaide however the year of birth is 1848 and you mentioned Mary Jane was born 1845. ?Source.
NELSON Mary
25 May 1930 82 years Status Widower Relative James NELSON[Deceased husband]
Residence Adelaide Death Place Adelaide Ade 521/95
A transcription of her death registration may give you more identifying information if known to the informant. However South Australian death certificates for 1930 detail the following -
1908-1947 - [From Australian Resources - South Australian Resources on the Australian board.]
* Date and Place of Death
* Name
* Sex
* Age
* Occupation
* Usual Residence
* Birthplace
* Length of Residence in Commonwealth
* Age at Marriage
* Number of Issue Living and Deceased
* Cause of Death
* Place of Death
* Informant
Transcriptions are available from
http://www.jaunay.com/transcription.html
http://www.saghs.org.au/research.htm#transcription
Places of burial are not listed on SA death certificates until 1948.
I can see no James NELSON buried at Burra, only a James Stanley NELSON who died in 1893 aged 6 months with father James NELSON. The Mary NELSON buried in 1909 was aged 76 years and the death reg is noted in the name of Maria, widow of Samuel NELSON.
From the death indexes -
1842-1915
Seven deaths - James NELSON - 6 children and 1 adult in 1879.
1916-1936 [James being born 1836]
One on 28 Jul 1924 aged 83 years ie b. 1841 Status Married and died at Adelaide. Ade 472/30
Just to make it confusing, I can see three couples with the names James NELSON with wife Mary in the indexes.
If you knew where Flora's sisters had married and lived, it may help trace the gt grandparents. I emphasize the 'may' ;D
Have you only searched online cemeteries in SA? A number of the large metropolitan cemeteries do not have their records online. There are a couple of websites that list the names of those only with headstones.
I would suggest seeking help on the NZ board or have a search of the NZ bdm's. Have you the passenger records for you grandmother and chn when she returned to Adelaide?
Cheers
Cando
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Could you please give me James and Mary's ages on their marriage cert in 1869...and let's hope they were truthful ;)
The age quoted seems to refer to the age of the convict when the passenger list was created. The PALMERSTON departed England in November 1860.
NELSON James
5835 10 years 27 years Trial at Malta 1859 .
Shooting at his superior officer [Army?]
This would indicate that James was born c1833.
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks for that Cando...not having a good day... ::) but, I will look into all that you have asked and get back to you...
There has been a mix-up with me receiving other peoples posts..but hopefully that is being looked into..not my fault this time... :) unfortunately, being rather new at all this, one tends to get into trouble, and I dont understand all the procedure yet..but..learning fast.....I hope ;D Will get back to you ASAP with all the correct info that I know...and sorry :-[ he was born in 1836................not 63.. nice girl..not bright..at times... :)
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Cando....Oh boy, there is so much I dont know about these two, but I'll try and fill you in on what I do know.
There are no ages for them on their marriage certificate, only date of marriage..22 Nov.1969..James was a Harness Maker/Saddler...fathers name was also James Nelson. occupation ..Publican..
Mary Donovan's occupation was servant...fathers name was John Donovan..Painter..
Flora's sisters...I think I gave you their names and DOB...but, unfortunately all have died now, and I've lost touch with all but one, who's son does not have any information at all...
I found an old Aunt, (who knew them all, she is still alive at 92, but is in a nursing home, and unable to talk...
Henry Alfred...Flora's husband..died in 1926..but the family came out to Aust. later, maybe a couple of years later..I dont really know, as my Mother has also died, and there is no one to ask now.
I have looked at the photo and all it has on it is, Frank McNeil...Gawler Park Adelaide..no date..nothing..
I have it on record of her shipping list that she was born in England ? 1845..arrived on the Hastings on 28 Jan 1868. Western Australia...
I am decended from the Nelsons by my grandmother, James being her father...
My grandmother was married in Christchurch NZ on 14 Mar.1905. to Henry Alfred Donovan...she was 21..but I later found out, on a birth certificate on her that she was actually born in 1881..she always claimed she was born in 1883.
James and Mary's names were on the certificate, but in someones else"s handwriting, so I am unsure if they attended.
As far as getting their death registrations...thats not a problem..the question is which one to order?
I shall check the Burra deaths again, but I'm sure I saw a James and Mary Nelson there, apart from the ones you mentioned..I saw them also..
The James being born in 1836 .. one on the 28 Jul.1924..aged 83, even though birth is 1841 seemed to me to be him, but once again..that question???
I have searched online cemetries, plus the aid of "Headstone Transcriptions...South Australia.. They were very helpful to me, actually they were the ones that put me onto Burra....also a couple of cemetries I emailed for information..no go there....sooooooooooo.. ::) ???
Sorry if I get things back to front sometimes..but..I think my brain is shrinking with all the dates and names I've dealt with since I started this..How do YOU do it. ::) ;D anyway, I hope all this helps, and I'll try and get onto South Australia records..which might I add is difficult sometimes, as a lot of their info has gone...fire I think........
Thanks for at least trying to help me, we may go insane together over this. :
I
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These are the only burial records online for a James and Mary NELSON at Burra Cemetery.
NELSON James Stanley
Cemetery Burra Cemetery
Grave 1406
Date of Burial 07 Nov 1893
Grant Number 1406
and Mary
NELSON, Mary
Cemetery Burra Cemetery
Grave 1305
Age at Death 76
Date of Burial 16 Mar 1909
Grave Depth 7
Funeral Director C.J. Pearce
Grant Number 1305
I have given you details from the indexes for both these persons which eliminates them as being your family.
Is the address on the Frank McNEIL photographer, Gawler Park or is it Gawler Place?
I can find no photographer of that name in the history of photography in SA. However there was a T H McNEILL who operated his business under the name "SUPERB" STUDIOS.
http://www.artgallery.sa.gov.au/noye/Photogs/Phot_set.htm
> List of names in left menu and then scroll down.
Would have to look at a directory to find further info on his business address.
A South Australian 1909 electoral roll has this listing and as the address in close proximity to the City of Adelaide, it indicates to me that his studio would probably be in Gawler Place, but then again perhaps he travelled to Gawler [Park], which is north of Adelaide. A fair trip in the early 1900's.
McNEILL Francis Andrew, Castle Street, Parkside. Occupation Photographer.
Do you think you could post the photograph on the Restoration board for a dating opinion.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,298.0.html
Jennifer, I only detailed the two death registrations as possibilities. Please do not feel under any obligation to purchase. However if you wish to, usually the first deceased of a couple is the better option, as the information may have been given by their spouse.
I would certainly have expected Flora's siblings to be deceased ;) however have you attempted to research them at all? Do you know if they went to NZ or remained in Adelaide? Have you any information about them at all? Who did they marry? Where did they live? Perhaps with a little more information we can trace them. Every little snippet helps :)
I have it on record of her shipping list that she was born in England ? 1845..arrived on the Hastings on 28 Jan 1868. Western Australia...
Are you sure this is your Mary DONOVAN? There is another Mary DONOVAN b. Ireland arriving WA in 1862. What I am attempting to do is find a date of birth on an official document.
I think that is enough from me for today. I'll leave you to go through the thread and perhaps address each query.
Cheers
Cando
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Cando...thank you very much for all that..I will look into things...and it was Gawler Place.. (photo)
I think we have a problem...not just me ::) but I am not receiving your notices on my email re thread...I am getting other threads sent to me..the only way I know you have a message is if I get onto the thread itself, and look..I have reported this, and there is someone looking into it...is this happening to others as well as me.. I know I'm new at all this, but I dont think the problem is at this end... re technical..that is ::)
Do you think changing the thread to another "channel" whatever you do may solve this problem..only a suggestion...
Re Mary Nelson....all I have is that she was born in 1845 England..but that may be wrong as far as place goes.... I will do what I can this end...re family of Flora...but, I have lost touch with their families, other than one, and she is 90 and not too good at the moment...
I will have to "digest" what you have written, and get back to you on Monday... 8) :)
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Dalek when you log on to rootschat you can check new replies to your posts at the top of the page - it looks like this on your page
Welcome back, dalek39, you have xx messages, x are new.
Show unread posts since last visit.
Show new replies to your posts.
Click on to Show new replies to your posts.
I have notifications turned off as I prefer to check myself. I receive too many emails as it is ;)
No channels on rootschat, just boards...and this request should probably be moved to the Australian board. You can request a moderator to do this if you wish.
Unfortunately when we take information from death certificates, it can be incorrect. When I research I like to have at least three sources for my information if I can't see the primary source.
I only mentioned Flora's siblings to assist you with researching the family. James and Mary may have lived near one of their other daughters and died in the same area.
Cheers
Cando
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Always seek help if you are have problems on here....someone will always come to your aid :) I may not have explained things very clearly.
Have you read?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,287.0.html
and
http://www.rootschat.com/help/help_index.php
Cando
Moderator comment: moderators and admin team are assisting dalek to solve the issue. Some posts removed since they relate to the 'technical difficulties' rather than the search for James Nelson.
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Just a thought - the court martial may well have been Royal Navy or Royal Marines as both are/were active around Malta.
Judith
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Thanks Cando and Judb..No, I have not seen that site, have taken note of both, its good, and Judb, I thought of the marines, but not the navy..That is worth looking into..Thank you both.
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In regards to JamesNelson....
.I am in the midst of contacting the Archives..we sent an email, but have not heard as yet..
I also got in touch with the photo crowd you mentioned, and am waiting a reply from them.
On their marriage certificate, it stated that the fathers occupations were,(James) Publican..where? and John Donovan (Hannah's father) painter..where? I wonder if that was in England or Australia, as there were no signatures, just written by the same hand, which makes me wonder if they were present at the wedding... and.no ages of couples...
Have you any suggestions?
Until I get a day, and month of birth, its hard to go any further without this, and so many Nelson born in the same year...Also, there is a thought that he may have put his age up to get into the Army/Navy/Marines...???
I am going to get in touch with the People connected to the Convict records in Perth , and see if they have anything.. what do you think?
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Dalek39, I have no idea if any of these relates to him but have a look- I punched in James Nelson for 1840-1900 into the catalogue search on the National Archives at Kew and this list appeared.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=James+Nelson&txtfirstdate=1840&txtlastdate=1900&txtrestriction=&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=40&image1.y=10
I hope it opens up for you but if not Google NA at Kew and search the Catalogue direct.
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Thanks Glamis for that...will do...tell you what I find out, if anything.... :)
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Just read the file (National Archives) and there are two there that "could" be him..will check it out..THANKS ;D
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Tell us which 2 and if I can maybe, I can do more this end- can't promise though. It just helps to know who :)
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Will PM you on that, as its a different thread ;)
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Okeydoke, going to bed now as it's 0040 here, got to be up and at it ready to collect my little girl. :)
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:) Cando....
I have some work to do in answer to your questions, and because of all the "drama" I caused with my mix-ups re posts etc..I got a "tad behind..so..lets start again...
First...I need to find my grandmother and her children return to Australia, on the shipping list..
2nd..I have sent off to the DPS Perth for info on James Nelsons convict records, to see if I can get birth Dates, ie, day and month..we "think" we have the year, but 1833 could be looked at, as they did tend to put up their age to get enlisted in those days.
3rd..I'm waiting on a reply from the Photo group, in Adelaide..re James's photo.. (also I dont know how to post a photo, another headache for you in advising me) ::)
4thMary Donovan..?? is it her...She married in 1869..no age on her certificate..only her fathers name as John Donovan..occupation.Painter... James Nelson's father was also a James, occupation..Publican. now I dont know if this was in England, or Australia...
So..I will do my bit..and check out what I can and get back to you..it may take a couple of days, as my time is not always my own as I explained in my PM....(did you get that) AND..my apologies to all the folk that received multiple emails from me...just testing them..NO..NO..its my computer this time..not me. :D Its looks like it may go to God. :-[
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I have emailed the Kew Archives for information on James Nelsons' full birth date...cross the fingers.
I cant see how we can get anywhere without knowing day and month as well as correct year...
There is nothing re ages etc on their marriage certificate..and I cant get him on the South Australian census, as they dont seem to have much on that...Their record shop is very difficult ::)
so, ..I'm just waiting...waiting...waiting... :)
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:)
First...I need to find my grandmother and her children return to Australia, on the shipping list..
I can't help you with shipping records in that period. Flora and children may have arrived in any port in Australia and travelled overland to Adelaide.
2nd..I have sent off to the DPS Perth for info on James Nelsons convict records, to see if I can get birth Dates, ie, day and month..we "think" we have the year, but 1833 could be looked at, as they did tend to put up their age to get enlisted in those days.
The database was compiled from various sources so I doubt there would be a 'record' as such. I assume you also found this description on the page linked to the passenger record of the PALMERSTON They do state on their website that the think the age of the convict is taken from the date the shipping record was recorded.
Surname NELSON
Christian Name James
Reg# 5835
Occupation Harness Maker
M/S Child S [Single] None
Height 5' 3˝"
Hair Dark brown
Eyes Dark hazel
Face Full
Complexion Dark
Build Proportionate
Reg# 5835
Distinguishing Marks None
3rd..I'm waiting on a reply from the Photo group, in Adelaide..re James's photo.. (also I dont know how to post a photo, another headache for you in advising me) ::)
I don't know what else the Art Gallery in SA can tell you about the photograph. The photographer is not listed in the database of photographers on the NOYE history of photographers website. They may give you an estimate of year in which it was taken.
http://www.artgallery.sa.gov.au/noye/Introset.htm
Lots of help here on posting photos on rootschat. I definitely can't help with that ::)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,317502.0.html
4thMary Donovan..?? is it her...She married in 1869..no age on her certificate..only her fathers name as John Donovan..occupation.Painter... James Nelson's father was also a James, occupation..Publican. now I dont know if this was in England, or Australia...
It is usual for the bride and groom's parents' names and the fathers' occupations to be noted on a marriage certificate. I very much doubt that James' father was in Australia. To date there is no evidence of Mary DONOVAN's nationality.
Unfortunately Western Australian birth certificates do no show the place of birth of the parents until 1896 otherwise I would have suggested purchase one of the childrens' birth certs.
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
I don't understand what you mean
and I cant get him on the South Australian census, as they dont seem to have much on that...Their record shop is very difficult
I did not receive a pm from you. Wonder who you sent it to ;)
Cando
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In my then state of mind...who knows....sorry about that...will do so again.
I have just found on Ancestry.com.au..details on James Nelson..Malta..and have written off to those concerned...hopefully, we may get something of his birth date...will get back to you on that as soon as I hear.. It did state that he departed Perth for UK on 13/1/1875, but actually went to Adelaide South Australia...where he stayed... :)
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Would you mind pm'ing the info you found about James NELSON. I doubt you are allowed to post it here as it will breach copyright. You have stated your source.
Cheers
Cando
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Cando...will do as you ask...just eager to find out....but I'm hopefully learning. :)
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Oh dear...sorry....will do. :-[
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Would you mind pm'ing the info you found about James NELSON. I doubt you are allowed to post it here as it will breach copyright. You have stated your source.
Cheers
Cando
Best if we leave copyright advice to the copyright editors cando, thank you.
Please do not be sorry dalek39. You have been ill-informed here. Of course you may post information you have found using a valid resource, which you have used in the course of furthering your own research. (provided of course you do not copy and paste the information from an index or transcription)
All the best in your research.
RootsChat's copyright team.
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James Nelson info....Ancestry.com.au search Australian Convict Index..1788 - 1868 I just typed in James Nelson..Malta..1833..instead of the date we have 1836..gave it a go...and bingo..that came up...a contact email, so I emailed...now waiting for the reply....
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Thank you.. :-* I feel better now.....I'm going "off line now....see you tomorrow... :)
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Cando.... Just thought that with Xmas only three weeks away, maybe I'll leave you in peace till its over and we all get back to normal with our research....I really do appreciate what you have done for me..and I hope we can continue in the new year.... If, I can, I will chase up those things you asked, ie photo of James..etc...anyway, . Wishing you a very merry xmas , and a great time with your family......Dalek
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Yes, Both of you- Thank you for the help you gave me in finding Sarah etc. Merry Christmas to you and have a really great New Year too.
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Cando...I have just found my great aunt Emily Rose Nelson, one of my grandmothers sisters, who married Alexander Braidwood 28 Jun 1900 in Perth... Alexander William Braidwood born on 14 oct 1865 and the family lived at Hamilton Victoria.. Alexander and Rose had three surviving children..Nelson..Journalist and War correspondent..Dudley and James.
Emily, aka Rose and Alexander lived in Perth WA.. and where they died in unknown...
I am trying to track them down, as it may lead to information on her parents, James and Mary Nelson
I also have information on a death notice for James Nelson. Date 28 Jul 1924..age 83 ..status M. residence Adelaide..death place Adelaide..District code. Adelaide/book:472/page:30.
And...Mary Nelson..25 May 1930.. age 82 status W. Relative, James Nelson (DH)..Residence Adelaide.
District code: Adelaide/book:521/page 95
Now I dont know if these are them, dates differ to what I have, re birth, but, we know they can get it wrong in the records, and if he joined whatever service in the English military, who knows what age he gave.. he was semi-literate..as stated in the records...
I will leave searching into this till after the new year..as places shut down over this period..but just wanted to give you this information...and to seek any advise you have...
I have been given other websites from the source I received this info from, so will put that aside for the moment,. all the best.. and have a rest over the xmas period. :-* :)
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Hi Dalek :)
The death info for James and Mary NELSON is identical to that which I gave you as a couple of possibilities ;)
I would be interested in the url's for your sources as other information may help eliminate or confirm these deaths as correct.
Cheers
Cando
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Full details
http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
BRAIDWOOD Alexander William
NELSON Emily Rose
1900 Reg#1293
District Perth
BRAIDWOOD Unnamed Male
Father Alexander William Mother Emily Rose NELSON
1900 Reg#4257
District Perth
BRAIDWOOD Nelson Clifford
Father Alexander William Mother Emily Rose
1902 Reg#4477
District Perth
BRAIDWOOD James
1916 Reg#2009
District Perth
Electoral rolls show Alexander and Emily Rose from 1903 and they were living at 63 Harold Street, North Perth on the 1943 Electoral Roll. Alexander's occupation - amalgamator.
Alexander died 14 Feb 1946 and he was cremated at Karrakatta - his ashes were taken. There is no burial record for Emily Rose. Nelson Clifford died in 1957 aged 55 and is memorialised at Karrakatta.
http://www.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/search.php
Cheers
Cando
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Have some information on James and Mary Nelson....contacted the West Terrace cemetry, after being told by an old aunt of 90..that she thought they were buried there...anyway, got onto their office, and was told that they found a James and Mary Nelson there, but the dates were different to what I had, but not by much..and...that they were buried near both daughters, my aunts, that I also lost. I will give you what I have, dont think it will contravene anything...
James nelson was buried on the 26 May 1930.. Mary Jane was buried on the 26 May 1930 ??? big question here..anyway, they were aged 82, and 83 respectively. The grave location at West Terrace Cemetry is Flinders..on the east side of Path 8 Grave 24.. There is a simple headstone, and I suspect the grave was tidied up about 1966,, as there are white ceramic tiles on the ledger.
I have found a grave immediately to the rear of the above grave described as Flinders, on the west side of path 7 grave 28..This grave contains the remains of Ellen Nelson, who was buried on 1st Nov. 1931 aged 52...and..Mary Jane Nelson (Popsy) who was buried on 26 Oct. 1966 aged 93. I assume this Mary Jane is your Popsy.
1966 ? wonder if the family while attending Popsy's grave tidied up their parents???
I'm guessing that Ellen is the daughter of James and Mary Jane..nee Donovan, who was born on 17 Mar.1877.. She was actually 54, not 52 but women always cheat a bit on age...
Ive also found another Mary Jane Nelson, buried 6 Apr.1915 age 72. Dont think she's yours but one never knows..She was the widow of a Henry Nelson...
Now he has all the dates of my family right, except the ones of James and Mary, but it seems to me that as they are buried very close to the "girls" makes me wonder..
There is a headstone on these graves, and as I cant get there, have asked a cousin, who lives in Adelaide to see if he can, and get a photo, once we know its them...
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Blooming good reckie so far, Dalek39- go for it. You seem to be on a very good trail. Well done. ;)
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Well Glamis...not there yet..but its getting close...found two aunts that I though I'd lost..in that cemetry.. Thanks for that
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You're research skills are pretty damn good. Carry on; you'll get there -after all you found Hannah Maria Hankins. That was a bundle of treacle. ;)
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On James Nelsons' marriage certificate..was his father being a Publican... I have three James Nelsons' that are Innkeepers..but...will have to confirm James's birth or death date before I go anywhere with that...
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Is there a registry for licencees for that era? That may give some good info if there is.
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I have just received an email from the state Library Of Western Australia, with some links to search, re James nelson and his regiment in Malta so will get back when I know something...anything...Help !!
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I think you need to get some details from the convict records. This is late in the transportation era and records were much more informative than in early days. I think it would give at least a native place and possibly names of father and siblings.With no birth place and, it would seem, no knowledge of his mother's name, it is difficult to locate him. At this webpage, go to "sources" top right hand corner, and it has reference books that sound to have good details on the Palterston passengers.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/con-wa28.html
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I think you need to get some details from the convict records. This is late in the transportation era and records were much more informative than in early days. I think it would give at least a native place and possibly names of father and siblings.With no birth place and, it would seem, no knowledge of his mother's name, it is difficult to locate him. At this webpage, go to "sources" top right hand corner, and it has reference books that sound to have good details on the Palterston passengers.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/con-wa28.html
Previously mentioned and contact was made earlier on. It is also mentioned that the convict database has been compiled from various sources and possibly there may be no further information than is online, details of which are on the thread.
Cando
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Hi Cando....
I hope you and your family had a lovely xmas, as we did...and that the weather was not too hot for you...
Re James Nelson...I have sent off to the national Archives at Kew..and waiting for a reply, but as its xmas don't expect one right away....I have given them all the details I have, so cross the fingers..
I have found James and Mary Jane Nelsons' daughters graves...
Ellen Nelson...b 17Mar.1877...died 1Nov..1931..age 54/ West Terrace Cemetry. Adelaide South Australia
Mary Jane (daughter) born 1872 . died 26oct 1966 age 94 " " " " "
Nance (Annie) West.nee Nelson..born 1879..died 8 Dec. 1996. Centennial Park..Adelaide South Australia
Emily Rose Braidwood, nee Nelson..born 1874..died 19Apr 1954...age 80.. Queensland Australia.
Flora Donovan. born 1881 ..d 4 May 1967..Adelaide.. her ashes were sent to NZ to be intered with her husband at Bromley Cemetry..Christ Church NZ
There is a James and Mary Jane Nelson also buried there at West Terrace Cemetry, but this is not confirmed as yet. if they are the parents.
I have received information of Rose Braidwood from a Robin Woods, Oklahoma.USA..who was in contact with the son of Emily Rose, he was a genealogist who was doing family history on the Braidwoods , and gave her a lot of information, but unfortunately not much on the Nelson side...She is interested in finding out more.... so will keep you up to date as I hear. :)
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I cannot see if this has been covered so far - what are the names for witnesses at the 1869 marriage record - might be from bride's family.
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Thank Dalek39 for the update.
Wivenhoe there are two possibilities for the arrival of Mary in WA and neither appeared to be with family. Not mentioned on the thread however. There are others helping Dalek39 but not on rootschat.
Cheers
Cando
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Dalek39, Cando, Wivenhoe and All, Can I just ask for clarification is James Nelson somehow connected to me on the Hankins side but how if he is? As Dalek39 was also not sure of Sarah Weymss-Dalrymple's connection to her, I am in a similar position where I can't quite work it out. Any pointers would be gratefully received. Happy New Year to you All as well.
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Hi Glamis :)
The link to a HANKINS is in reply#4.
Flora Nelson was my grandmother..she married Alfred Henry Donovan ( Alice Hankins son) 14 Mar. 1905..Christchurch NZ...
Cheers
Cando
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Hello Cando- Good to hear from you and Thanks for this. I really do find the whole family linking difficult. Now I know. From what you point out, J H Hankins' sister Alice's son Alfred Harry Donovan's wife : Flora links me to James Nelson who must have been Flora's Father- or similar?I think I'm getting there- will look back.
Cheers Hapy New Year again :)
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My search of Emily Rose Nelson, one of James and Mary Nelsons' daughters led me to Perth Western Australia..where Emily Rose was born...I found she had married ..an Alexander William Braidwood in Perth.....(my source is from an old aunt of mine, who is 91)
This led to me contacting the cemetry where he was buried in Perth WA He died in 1946 aged 80.
but nothing on Emily Rose, his wife...
As I was searching the Braidwood line, hoping for a clue to her whereabouts, I discovered that she had four sons, one being a war correspondent...and a grandson, Norman, who was a genealogist searching the Braidwoods... I also saw that this line was being researched by a person in the USA, so I contacted this person, and was given the information that Emily Rose Braidwood, nee Nelson died in Queensland. 19 Apr. 1954.. but her burial place is still unknown to me...
I have to thank Cando for suggesting that I search for James and Mary's daughters, for a clue...for this paid off... and now, I have found them all....except their parents James and Mary Nelson... :) ;)
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Dalek Emily Rose was still on the electoral rolls in Perth in 1943. Unfortunately she didn't enrol to vote when she moved to Qld.
Her death certificate would give you her place of burial.
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/mainMenuSubmit.m?main_menu=IndexSearch
No response from the server for a search on bdm.qld.gov.au at the moment.
Transcriptions of death regs of James and Mary in SA may help identify them. I have previously given you details of info available on death certs. Adelaide Cemeteries Authority [West Tce Cemetery] may be able to help with more information from their records. I am not referring to grave location information as you have that.
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks Cando for that..I get no response on that BDm also...will try again later...and..I will contact the West Terrace Cemetery...I was waiting on a relative to go and see, but xmas got in the way...so will email them..and see what they say... :)
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Cando...have tried that BDM Qld ...again...no luck there, so have contacted a couple of cemeteries with details of her...one being Brisbane, the other the General Cemeteries..waiting on answers..if any.. :D
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Death in Qld
1954/1485
BRAIDWOOD Emily Rose
Father James Nelson Mother Mary Jane Donovan
Have searched here and no burial record
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:STANDARD::pc=PC_899
Database covers the following
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:BASE::pc=PC_905
Death cert would detail place of burial.
Cando
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Yes I agree, a certificate would confirm things, but, just to know where she died is enough, as there are other sides of my family I would like to investigate..which may need documents of their births, as one of my Kin is named McDonald...and that is a challenge...to say the least.. ;D ;)
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Have just received documents that tell me James Nelson..No.5835.. was officialy tried in Malta ..G & CT Ml..1859. and sent back to Portland England to wait his transportation... He was sent out to Western Australia on the ship Palmerston , arriving 1861.. His character said V.G.
On the document it states, name and age of wife or next of kin...but this has only 59 7 and underneath this 67..the rest is unreadable..so I dont know what this means.
He recieved a Ticket of leave..16 Feb 1863..and conditional pardon 7 Mar 1867.. It appears he married one week before his release, but worked outside the compound as a Harness Maker, and Saddler..
I also have his certificate of Freedom...unreadable ..Sept.1869..He was married 22 Nov.1869. to Mary Jane Donovan, Perth Congreg.Church.. They had two children in Perth, Mary Jane, born 1872..and Emily Rose..Born 1874..
They left Perth for the UK on 13 / 1 / 1875.. on the Ship Charlotte Padbury.. Did they go back to England ..or did they stop off at Adelaide..as their 3rd child was born..in Adelaide..Ellen Nelson..b.17 Mar. 1877..which leaves a three year gap from the last child...
I cant find the Charlotte Padbury, or a list of passengers, but I do have that Mary Jane Donovan came to Perth on the ship Hastings inleft England ..Apr.1869..aged 23..Thats all I have at the moment.. ;D
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I have just found James Nelson.. born Belfast..Ireland..date not yet known exactly..joined the 3rd Regiment of Foot..2nd Battalion...Royal East Kent Regiment..known as "The Buffs" ..stationed in Malta during 1859. where he was Court Martialed for shooting at his superior officer..sentenced to 10 years, and transported to Western Australia on the ship Palmerston 1861..He was sent to Portland Eng. waiting his transportation date...
He married Mary Jane Donovan in Perth West.Aust..at the Cong.Church. Perth..on 22Nov 1869. having three children in Perth..one still born..female. 1871...........Mary Jane. b. Perth 1872......
Emily Rose. b. Perth 1874.....then sailed for England 13/1/1875...on the Charlotte Padbury..not sure if this ship went straight to England or stopped in Adelaide on the way..but ...James and Mary had four more children in Adelaide South Australia...Ellen .b. 1877.......Annie . b.1879.........Flora b. 1881.
There was a son born, Henry.. 18th Dec 1887...lived 8 months...died 22 Jul. 1888.
They are both buried with two of their daughters Ellen...and Mary..at West Terrace Cemetry..together..... His father was a publican, also named James Nelson.. mother unknown at this stage...
I want to thank all who helped me in this search...so now onto others.... :-* ;D :)
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Well Found Dalek39, sad though but knowing is a strange peace. As you say, moving on ...
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Thanks Glamis...get the vallium out..we are off to track the rest...can you hear the moderators running away...Its them..again.....sorry about that, just my wierd sense of humour. but..we do appreciate the help.. :-* ;D
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Find 'em we shall.
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Yes..I agree with that.
Interesting I have found......James had two sons we knew nothing about apparently...Showed up on his death record...
ie.. James Nelson died 28 Jul.1924..age 83...of heart falure (1 day) and senile decay at his residence In Queen Street Adelaide..South Aust.
Profession....Saddler.
Birthplace..Belfast..
Length of residence in the Commonwealth not known..
Age at marriage about 30yrs.
Total issue..2M..5F..alive..and 1M..deceased.
Informant..A.Wallman..undertaker of Pultney St.Adelaide.
Registered 31 Jul.1924. by Norman Fox..
Entered in District Registry Office...4 Aug.1924..by Max Wilson. District Registra..
Mary Nelson was buried with him in 1930.. also daughter Ellen..1931 and possibly baby son Henry. :o ::)
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Well found. Spookey old equine theme in those genes again though. ;D Who was Norman Fox? I wonder if he was a son-in-law? Anyway. That'll show up at some point no doubt.
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Glamis thanks for pointing that out..makes me wonder also..Have to check it out...There is so much with this family that keeps popping up...
Wont be doint it today though..Its Australia Day..holiday..so will get back to this later... ;D :)
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..I found out that James Nelson, when he died, left two sons as well as 5 daughters.. all alive at the time of his death...
The family were not aware of this, just the girls..is there anywhere online I can go to get some information regarding this... ??? :)
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Help please....does Ireland have any kind of census around 1841..trying to track James Nelson background...born Belfast .1841..father publican..mother unknown at this stage. ???
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First complete census for Ireland is 1901.
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Oh Dear, Thanks Aghadowey (I'm just helping Dalek39 too- my cousin from the Hankins) Any ideas where to go next to search?
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Thanks Aghadowey....I've just come onboard..... want to establish where abouts in Ireland he came from..and I know his father was also a James Nelson ...fathers occupation was a publican, but I dont know if it was in Ireland or England...thats why I wanted the census..but..there must be other means...have you any suggestions please. :)
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If England is a possiblity it might be wise to check the census records there 1st for James the publican.
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aghadowey...I sent details of his birthdate and origin..did you get that...It came across that there was some sort of disconnection with my reply..if you didn't I'll repeat..
He was born Belfast Ireland 1841...he died in Adelaide South Australia 28 Jul.1924..age 83..his profession was Saddler..and is buried with his wife Mary Jane Nelson at West Terrace Cemetery..Adelaide... I received this information from the Adelaide Archives... :) :)
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Thanks for that..I will look into English census... ;) :)
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Civil registration of births in Ireland started in 1864 so there will be no birth certificate for James Nelson born c1841. The normal procedure is to search for church records of a baptism but even if you did know the family's religion there are numerous possible churches in Belfast (not sure if all of them would have records for that period and baptismal registers for that period sometimes list only minimal details like date of baptism, name of child, names of father so at the moment I don't think church records is a practical option).
One thing you can try is old Belfast directories (see www.proni.gov.uk) as father James might be listed- this is assuming he was the proprietor of a pub rather than merely working in a pub.
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I thank you for that info...will check it out, had a look on the English census 1851....only one there..thats a possibility.. is James snr..accountant..with all the family born in Ireland....James jnr. 10.. The next 1861, James Jnr, is in Australia..think I picked a hard one this time..but who knows. ::) :)
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Found a james Nelson...census1841..estimated birth (father) 1791...Publican..but said born in Yorkshire...he may have been, but son James (1841) born Belfast. ??? Only census I found with a James Nelson ...publican...so far...
Looked at that site you gave me Aghadowey..will have to study it further...thanks, it looks interesting. :)
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Just letting all know that I'm still searching the info I received..will get back with what I find..if anything.. 8) :)
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I have just received word from the National Archives..Kew..that they are not doing any more free quotes for research information on certain subjects, one being mine WO97..and will be bringing in a new system in March..so I cant get anything on James Nelson, re his Army info till then.. which should include date of birth, place of birth etc...
Its hard to pay for research when you dont know in advance how much their time will cost...so, I'm just letting you know not much will be going on till I find out more from them... ::) :)
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Aghadowey....I have just sent off to Northern Ireland for birth details for James Nelson using that address you gave me...thanks...will wait for a response. ;D
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Aghadowey....I have just sent off to Northern Ireland for birth details for James Nelson using that address you gave me...thanks...will wait for a response. ;D
What address? PRONI? If you read my post you will see that civil registration of births began in 1864 and that PRONI link was to check directories.
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Aghadowney...The email address you gave me in a latter post was for PRONI..Public Record Office of Northern Ireland..
I saw what you posted, and thank you for that, but there was a site on there that was a HELP line for information regarding records...so I contacted them..nothing ventured..nothing gained...
I am waiting for a response for a quote on a birth record...
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Civil registration of births started in 1864 so there will be no birth certificate for James Nelson born in 1840s.
PRONI have microfilmed copies of church records but since you aren't sure of religion or address in Belfast you can hardly expect them to find a baptismal record (which may not even exist) for you.
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Unfortunately...as a senior citizen, we do get confused at times, and not being totally familiar with computers etc.. I try to be considerate to you as I know you are all busy... It seems to me you were not happy at what I did.. by your remarks... maybe if I had your job I would understand things better. then maybe if I had your job it would be mayhem...
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One thing you can try is old Belfast directories (see www.proni.gov.uk) as father James might be listed- this is assuming he was the proprietor of a pub rather than merely working in a pub. ....
Civil registration of births started in 1864 so there will be no birth certificate for James Nelson born in 1840s.
PRONI have microfilmed copies of church records but since you aren't sure of religion or address in Belfast you can hardly expect them to find a baptismal record (which may not even exist) for you.
So how does this help? I'm not quite sure how to take this further.This was suggested and so if church records are the only option, it is surely a leaf by leaf search then?
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Thanks Glamis.....I realize that too..so thats why I took the line I did, I told them I understood there were no birth records before a certain date, so could they please direct me to whatever site may be able to help. if there were any records other than birth...thats all ;D
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My earlier post was advising searching old directories on PRONI website to see is there was a listing for James Nelson who may or may not have been a publican in Belfast-
One thing you can try is old Belfast directories (see www.proni.gov.uk) as father James might be listed- this is assuming he was the proprietor of a pub rather than merely working in a pub.
My later posts have been telling you again that there will be no birth certificate for James Nelson born in 1840s.
To search for church records in Ireland you need two important bits of information- the family's religion and where they lived- and then you need to check if the relevent church records for that period do exist.
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Aghadowey, so do you have any idea what to do if you don't have a religeon or a definite place of habitat? Is there a 'let's see' for either RC or Protestant facility? I think the religeous conviction may be the king pin regardless of where but where will help narrow things down. Bit stumped otherwise. Thanks for the pointers though.
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I'll wait and see what come up with the reply I get from Public Records Office Of Northern Ireland. and go from there. thanks Glamis ;D
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Aghadowey, so do you have any idea what to do if you don't have a religeon or a definite place of habitat? Is there a 'let's see' for either RC or Protestant facility? I think the religeous conviction may be the king pin regardless of where but where will help narrow things down. Bit stumped otherwise. Thanks for the pointers though.
'Protestant' isn't a religion- you need to know their actual religion such as Church of Ireland, Presbyterian, Methodist, Congregationalist, Quaker, Reformed Presbyterian, Baptist to name the most common ones.
The PRONI records are microfilmed copies of some, not all, surviving church records and they are not on a database. The microfilms need to be checked which is why you need more information. In a city the size of Belfast there are numerous possible churches.
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Aghadowey, Thank you for the clarification. I do get confused about it and it is helpful to get a list of the range of religeons to search through. As Dalek39 says, it will be helpful to see what comes back from the PRO of NI. Your guidance is appreciated.
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There are at least 5 Church of Ireland possiblities in Belfast alone (and more if 'Belfast' refers to the area rather than just the city). There are at least 30 Presbyterian churches in Belfast but not sure about other denominations. This is why you need to have an idea or the address and religion before starting to look for church records.
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Thanks again- you're guidance is most helpful, especially as Dalek39 is across the other side of the world and I have little knowledge on these things. (My beginnings were in the Middle East with travel stops elsewhere there after. My British / European geography/history input was subsequently quite scanty.Mother being from NZ didn't help in these matters either. At boarding school, an assumption that you knew seemed the order of the day. The wider world was more of a focus with 'older' history more the norm)
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In my search for James Nelsons' origins.. the only Publican I could find in the English Census ..1841
was James and Elizabeth..but.born in Yorkshire..and..no James Jnr.
Next find was James and Agnes Nelson..b Ireland around 1818..with son James, b 1841...Ireland....1951 census......James Snr. was an Accountant..not Publican, but this could have changed... Residence was in Surrey..not far from Kent...is that right.....James Jnr. joined the Royal East Kent Regiment around 1858/9..
I realize this is not proof, but its the best I have at present.
My mothers sister was named Inez..AKA Agnes...
Any advise on this would be appreciated. :)
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still waiting from the National Archives in answer for information on James Nelson army record...will get back to the thread when I hear. :)
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James Jnr must have records. The Royal East Kent Regiment back then must have archives. Does anyone know where exactly to ask/look apart from the NA as Dalek39 has already asked them and is still waiting? Although, Dalek39, you are asking for his parents not him. Maybe, ask about son and in so doing you will get leads about his parents.
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Glamis....I have sent off..have a letter here on my lap...just have to send off money order to get the information....all these certificates...I hope that money tree doesn't die due to the drought.. ;D :-*
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Bye the way..they did inform me that they doubt that it will give family names, or date of birth..maybe there is a guardian angel up there somewhere..I need one. :D ;D
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Keep digging- eventually you should turn up something. I have found it does pay to look outside the box. Have you asked for an Army Records for Jnr as mentioned before? It is worth a try.
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Yes I have... waiting for them to come...from the UK...thinking outside the square/box is the only way sometimes...and I have found things by doing that...it just gets very confusing at times..and I do appreciate your help, believe me. :-* :)
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Just received confirmation on Mary Nelson..nee Donovan..who was married to James Nelson... died aged 83...in Queen Street..Adelaide South Australia.
Born in England 1848..place unknown as yet.. married James Nelson in Perth WA 1869..age 18 years.
Resident in Australia for 60 years. Total issue..2M..5F.alive at time of her death..1M deceased.
Her Daughter, also Mary Jane Nelson..died 24 Oct 1966 age 93 years. and is buried with her parents at West Terrace cemetery..Adelaide South Australia...
There were two brothers, one ..George, but have had no luck in finding him as yet. Other brother unknown..
I am still waiting for records from the Archives in England...will notify when I receive them. :)
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I have just received James Nelsons' Army records from the National Archives from London...
He was 18 years at time of enlistment.. 2 Nov.1857.. He was born in Shankill Antrim (Belfast) 1841.
I would like to trace back to his parents, but as I was informed, I have to know his religion, and that I have no way of knowing, except he was protestant...so it looks like I have hit that brick wall...
I do want thank all who have helped me, and all who rendered assistance on my "epic" the Hankins thread.. wishing you all the best...
Dalek :)
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I have found a James Nelson and family living in Surrey...is that near Kent, as James was in Kent before he joined the army at a place called Shorncliffe. Eng.
I have also found a James Nelson and family in Camberwell Surrey..with a son James who is 10 ..this is the 1851 census...and the names fit other members of my family, ie..James wife.. name is Agnes, my mothers sister was Inez, another version of Agnes, and my aunt was Mary Jane, as in this census..one of the daughters of James...
I cant find them in the 1841 census in England, as this was the year James Jnr, was born in Ireland..and this family, except last two were all from Ireland.
I am having trouble finding them in the later census.. There is no way of confirming this, as to do so would require a birth record, and this is 1841 back, and as I was advised no records are available then, unless I know the religion of my ancestor..and how do I do that...is this the end of the line for me. regarding this family of James Nelson. ???
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Is anybody there...I am not receiving anything..wonder if there is something wrong... ???
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Receiving something now...other peoples posts...been here before..cant remember how to fix it...sorry..need help please.... :-[ :)
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thanks to all who helped me :-* :) things seem ok now...
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I found out that James was 18 yrs at time of enlistment in 1858..so his parents would have been alive then as it states on record that next of kin are only recorded if deceased...On James and Marys marriage certificate was fathers occupation as Publican...but does not say where...possible England..as James enlisted in Kent.. Regiment stationed Canterbury & Shorncliffe,
I have found only one census for James Nelson, Publican..b 1791.. married to Elizabeth...no other family.. He's 50, she's 40..that was on 1841 census..and James was born in Ireland at that time..and the ages do not seem right....
Is there an index on Publicans around that time...I do not know where else to go..Is this the end of the line for me with James.. :-\ :)
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Hi Dalek39, Have you looked at the NA at Kew for any Army records for James? If not it is definitely the place to look. I'll see if I can see anything online.
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Glamis...have done that, and received all the records they have...will PM you later... ;D :-*
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Help please...On the 1861 census...James Nelson, head..Elizabeth, wife, and Elizabeth daughter, James born around 1813...I cant quite make out what his occupation is...I am looking for James , a publican.. I found one on the 1861 C..but as James Junior was born in Shankill Belfast, 1841..joined the East Kent Regiment, Surry in 1858, age 18...I presume that they moved to England, around the Kent area, possibly after James Jnr. was born.... I tried Ireland..but so hard... ::) ;D
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Just checking this thread.....apart from Glamis...the last post was from Aghadowey on the 9 FEB.10.23.50 . I have been asking help, and heard nothing.....has my thread been closed ???
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Hi dalek39,
Your thread has not been closed. (Although it probably is time to complete it and move on) I am unsure just what it is you now require help with and am sure the other Australian researchers feel the same way. :-\
Perhaps you should post a simple request to the appropriate board stating clearly what it is you require help with. We do find it so much easier when the request is for a specific piece of information. You need to put the jigsaw together one piece at a time. There is no limit to the number of requests you can make on RootsChat.
You seem to now be hunting for James origin which is not in Australia. I feel the help you require is outside our scope of expertise - without specific requests for specific information you require from Australia there is really not much more we in Australia can do to help.
There is really no point asking for help with Irish records on the Australian Board. Most of us have no experience in Irish Records. aghadowey has kindly popped down here and tried to point you in the right direction.
If you require any further help with Australian Records we will of course do our best to help.
All the best in your hunt.
Cheers Kris :)
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Hello Dalek39, Just picking up on what Krisesjoint has said and it may open the search for James up for you but have you requested info about him on the Kent site in the UK?
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Thanks Glamis...No I haven't...not yet... :)
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Well I’m back. 🙄. Hope this is where I’m supposed to be. Anyway I’m sure I’ll be advised if not. 😁. I looked at that list you gave Aghadowey Very helpful. I then found quite a few publicans in Belfast , mostly Nelson’s. They must have been a happy lot. 1863-4 James Nelson. Spirit Dealer. Montgomery St Belfast.
A Nelson. Spirit Dealer / Publican Antrim Rd Belfast
George Nelson. Publican. 108 Great Georges Rd. Belfast
Roger Nelson. 1842. Publican. 10 Mustard St. Belfast. And Joseph Nelson. Also a Publican. 23 Mustard St. Belfast
Could they all be related or just coincidence. As I said. Belfast is overpopulated with wine and Spirit Dealers.
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And. What is a cooper. A few of them also.
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I noticed in Perth and Adelaide there are a lot of Nesbits living near Nelson’s. I found Nesbits living near Nelson’s in Belfast I came across a James Nelson married Agnes Nesbit in 1807 Belfast. Had a son Alexander. Born 1828. The Nelson’s and the Nesbits seem to be connected. And. There was an Agnes Nesbit living at Parkers St. Shankill Antrim Belfast. Presbyterian. Father David Nesbit mother Agnes ?
Also a James Nelson married Agnes Nesbit he was a cotton Spinner so I don’t think he was my James. Rosemary St Belfast. As I said. Belfast is crowded with Nelson’s and Nesbits. No wonder I get confused. Insanity is not in my genes. Yet
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And. What is a cooper. A few of them also.
;D this is a skilled occupation, involving steaming timber to shape it. coopers make wooden casks for storing liquids e.g. wine, whiskey fresh water. They make handles for rakes, shovels etc.
:D wikipedia should have info to give better description. :)
JM
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Majm. Thanks for that explanation on Cooper. it’s still all connected. The alcohol trade. 😁. It’s a strange thing. Every one of my great grandfathers were publicans. Unbelievable. I don’t mind a wine or two occasionally. But knowing it’s in the genes. I’m careful. Haha. Dalek 😬
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Majm. Can the “Completed” on my post be taken off. As I’m back on board again. Dalek.
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Hi,
I will use the 'report to moderator' button to ask the volunteer moderator to remove 'COMPLETED' from the topic heading, and to MOVE the thread back onto the main Australia Board (it is currently on the completed board).
Majm. Can the “Completed” on my post be taken off. As I’m back on board again. Dalek.
Cheers,
JM ADD R2M sent 3.08 pm Sunday 24 October 2021 (It is United Nations Day today, A famous Australian was involved in establishing the UN. Doc Evatt)
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Thank. Majm. 😁
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Thank you Sarah. Dalek.
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Sorry Sarah. I don’t know what post I’m on. Been away from this too long. You said you would change from “ completed”. Do I just start from “ reply” on the end of the last message. Please accept my apologies …it’s the weather. 😬🥴
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I’ll restart from here ok. X
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Majm. I’ll send from here. Age is not kind to us I’m afraid. Thanks for your help. And thanks for your patience Much appreciated. Dalek 😘
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Hi Dalek
It seems to me you are seeking information which is not really easily found by those who are moslly frequenting the Australian board.
Also I think you may be wise to be quite specific in what information you are looking for and about which person in particular.
If the person was Irish for instance, go to the Irish board, write a summary of what is known and proceed from that point with inquiries.
Some of the people who assisted on this thread are no longer so active in the forum and for that and other reasons, a fresh start may be advisable.
I'm sure there will be helpers if you offer some clarity on your searches.
Best wishes,
Sue
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Sue. I understand what your saying. Appreciate your advise .. I’ve come to realise that to continue on the Irish site seems to have come to a dead end. Im sure many will be relieved..🙄😁. That’s why I was advised to go onto the Australian site as there are family interests in both Perth and Adelaide. Being offline at the Forum for nearly seven years doesn’t help with understanding what to do at times., nor does being locked indoors for five months in Lockdown. It’s a wonder I’m not talking in tongues. 🥴 I apologise for causing confusion. And thanks to all who help. Dalek. 😘
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I have been searching for two sons of James and Mary Nelson. Leslie Nelson born 1899. Place of birth unknown. He married Hazel May Brown on 24 Jan 1925. St Mary Magdalene Adelaide. On his marriage record it says father James Nelson. . Leslie Nelson died in 1950. Age 51. And is buried at West Terrace Cemetery.
There is another brother George Nelson who I don’t have either DOB. Marriage or DOD. Or where he resided. I know of these two brothers because on Mary Nelson’s. Death notice. It stated “ loving mother of Les , George and their sisters. Mary Nelson’s last child was a son born Adelaide SA 1887. He died 1888 at eight months. So Mary would have been in her mid fifties when these two sons were born. I find that questionable but not impossible. Mary Jane Nelson born Donovan was born in England 1844.
I’m hoping there is some way of finding out the details of their birth without obtaining birth certificates. Dalek
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I have given details of both Nelson brothers who I can’t find any reference to where they were born or who the birth parents were. As is shown I have the details on Leslie Nelson , marriage and death only. As for George Nelson, nothing. I have searched most sites that I know of …any advise would be helpful. Thanks. Dalek …
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Hi Dalek
An elderly NELSON couple who lived at No. 11 Queen St, in the city of Adelaide, are both buried at West Terrace, and are MOST LIKELY the couple that you have been seeking.
The ages recorded on death certificates are often unreliable.
James NELSON died 23 Jul 1924
Mary NELSON died 25 May 1930
Their funeral notices can be viewed on TROVE.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/59025260?searchTerm=%22James%20NELSON%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/73800787?searchTerm=%22Mary%20NELSON%22
Essie
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https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/90055204 29 May 1930 Chronicle
This gives the names of Mary's children
ADD,
The paper has NOT put the notices in strict alpha order by surname ::) - it is in the far right hand column,
But the notice reads:
NELSON
On the 25th May, at 11 Queen Street, Adelaide, Mary widow of James Nelson, loving mother of Pops, Rose, Nellie, Nance, Florrie, George, and Les.
JM
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George was alive when Les died in 1950. 1950 minus 52 years gives possible birth years as 1897, 1898 and 1899. Two notices in same edition, same page but in different columns of The Advertiser
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/45665684 30 Oct 1950
NELSON.
On October 29, at a private hospital, Leslie, dearly beloved husband of the late Hazel ..., of 2 Dudley street, Parkside, and late of L. G. Abbott & Co. Ltd and loving father of J*** and J***. Aged 52 years.
.... , the beloved brother of George, Pops and Nance, .....
JM
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Miss Pops Nelson
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/29875076 14 Nov 1931 Advertiser, Return Thanks
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/29872067 31 Oct 1931 Advertiser, Nellie's death
JM
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Thanks to Essie. Majm I have got the death notice of James And Mary. The fact that George was alive when Les dies is of great interest. Will check that out. Thanks so much. Dalek. Xx
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Majm. You’re good. Thanks for those notices. I did have the one on James and Mary Nelson’s death. You said that George was alive when Leslie passed, is that because it would have mentioned “ deceased” re George. If he had died. On Leslie Nelson’s marriage record it states his birth year as 1899. Also on his death notice.. and at one stage it said younger brother of Les. Think I saw that on Trove. I did make a note of it. Will try and find.
I have Leslie Nelson ,son of James Nelson, saddler ,Bridgetown. West Aust,, 1935. James Snr was a Saddler in his younger days then Harness Maker on his convict record. So it seems to me son was taught by father.
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Majm. You’re good. Thanks for those notices. I did have the one on James and Mary Nelson’s death. You said that George was alive when Leslie passed, is that because it would have mentioned “ deceased” re George. If he had died. .....
No, :D :D :D it is because he is named in the notices when Leslie died, so the person putting the notice together at that time, named the then living family members. I will type out the second notice in full. It is at the top of the third column from the left. To me that notice is clearly saying that Leslie is the beloved brother of George, Pops and Nance. It does not mention their late siblings or their late parents. It is very likely that either George or Pops or Nance actually organised that particular notice. If you combine the two notices there's quite a lot of family history information there. So you often need to consider what has NOT been included and think about ''why not" ... in this instance, who, among his siblings, do you know were definitely no longer living when Leslie died? ...
NELSON
On October 29, at a private hospital, Leslie Nelson, of 2 Dudley street, Parkside, the beloved
brother of George, Pops and Nance, aged 52 years.
JM
:D George was alive when Les died in 1950. 1950 minus 52 years gives possible birth years as 1897, 1898 and 1899. Two notices in same edition, same page but in different columns of The Advertiser
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/45665684 30 Oct 1950
NELSON.
On October 29, at a private hospital, Leslie, dearly beloved husband of the late Hazel ..., of 2 Dudley street, Parkside, and late of L. G. Abbott & Co. Ltd and loving father of J*** and J***. Aged 52 years.
.... , the beloved brother of George, Pops and Nance, .....
JM
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Majm. In reference to the death notice Leslie Nelson. Beloved brother of George, pops ( Mary Jane Nelson b 1872. Perth WA) who died in 1966 Adelaide. and Nance West. ( Annie..born Nelson) died 1st Jan 1965. Aged 84.. Ellen Nelson died 1931. And Flora ( my Gran) died. 1967 in Adelaide. Ashes flown to NZ to be interred with her late husband. Alfred Henry Donovan..Christchurch. NZ
So Les Nelson died in 1950. Pops ( Mary Jane Nelson..spinster) was alive so was Nance ( Annie) Ellen was deceased. And Flora was in Melbourne living with my family at the time of Leslies death. 😊. James Nelson died in 1924. Adelaide. SA. Mary Jane his wife died in 1930. Adelaide. Both buried together at West Terrace Cemetery.
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Sorry. And Emily Rose Braidwood. Born Nelson died 19th April 1954. Brisbane. So May have not been able to attend the funeral.
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The death notice where it says loving father of “j” and “J”. Is his son Jack and daughter Marjorie Jean. Possibly known as Jean. ..
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Emily Rose Braidwood B Nelson) married William Braidwood in Perth WA and lived there but moved to Brisbane where she died.
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The death notice where it says loving father of “j” and “J”. Is his son XXXX and daughter XXXX. Possibly known as XXXX..
You can read the actual notice if you click on the link I gave. I don't know if Leslie's children are living. He married in 1925 as per your recent post. So his children not yet 100. If living, they are entitled to privacy of the individual, including their names.
JM
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Majm. I did read the notice. Twice incase I missed something. The L.G Abbott co the initials of Les and George. But a coincidence no doubt. Both of Les Nelson’s children are deceased. Jack died 6th Sept .1993. Buried ar Centennial Park. Adelaide. Marjorie Jean died 3rd July 2007. Buried at West Terrace Adelaide.. strange they were not buried at the same cemetery. Dalek.
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Majm. Arrrhh. Just had a thought. Maybe “ Pops “ ( Mary Jean Nelson, spinster) and Nance were “closer” than the other sisters. 🙄😬 strange there was no mention of the late father James Nelson. Or am I just reading things into it. I try to look at all possibilities but most times wrong. 🥴. Seven children in all and a big gap between the last two boys. She would have been in her mid fifties at the time of their births. As I said previous post questionable but not impossible. Dalek. Nelson
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Majm. I did read the notice. Twice incase I missed something. The L.G Abbott co the initials of Les and George. But a coincidence no doubt. Both of Les Nelson’s children are deceased. Jack died 6th Sept .1993. Buried ar Centennial Park. Adelaide. Marjorie Jean died 3rd July 2007. Buried at West Terrace Adelaide.. strange they were not buried at the same cemetery. Dalek.
L G Abbott & Co - https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130784552 News 12 June 1950
Mirror and Glassworks Fire.
JM
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Majm. Thanks for that information. Leslie Nelson was a glass worker. Explains his place of employment. Do you know the date that was published. Dalek.
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Majm. I see the publication of that notice of LG Abbott fire was 12 Jun 1950. Same date as Les Nelson died 29th Oct. 1950. 4 months later. Nothing to do with the fire.
And I’ve just received a date of Leslie Nelson. Born 15th April 1898. Dalek.
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Majm. Thanks for that information. Leslie Nelson was a glass worker. Explains his place of employment. Do you know the date that was published. Dalek.
and
Majm. I see the publication of that notice of LG Abbott fire was 12 Jun 1950. Same date as Les Nelson died 29th Oct. 1950. 4 months later. Nothing to do with the fire.
And I’ve just received a date of Leslie Nelson. Born 15th April 1898. Dalek.
Yes, I had already included the date of the newspaper cutting in that post. Yes, I agree that I was not indicating that the fire had anything to do with Les' death later in that same year. Yes, I agree I posted that cutting as it gave everyone following your threads, now and in the future, a good representation of L.G. Abbott & Co.
Good you now have a date of birth for Les. Does the document confirm his parentage and his place of birth and his older siblings? Does it name the informant and their relationship to him? Perhaps you could share that info in a post on this thread, so that anyone helping your quest can be kept up to date.
JM
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https://www.british-genealogy.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-67659.html?s=6868c863ab39ecf7fea89303cf89e162
Great deal of information from 2011 on that other forum.
JM
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Majm…. Didn’t mean to infer you suggested fire as cause of death. My apologies if I misled you. The date of the article of the fire I saw on the newspaper cutting. Just didn’t notice it when you sent it to me. And the information on Leslies date of birth. Was from a relative who lived in Adelaide. A granddaughter of Leslie Nelson. Unfortunately I have lost touch with her after the seven year break I had on Rootschat. I hope I can make contact again. Dalek
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I have tried to reach this relative. But her email address no longer available. She last contacted me in Jan 2012.
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Attaching a snip - re a mention of Horris in that other forum's thread... I read the name as Florra, I don't read it as Horris on the 1889 baptism for Ellen, Annie and Florra.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTD3-6VM : 28 January 2020), Horris Nelson, 1889
I still write my Capital F in that very style.
JM
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Thanks Majm. No I had seen that. The one that said Horris was a record on Ancestry and Family search. Funny how the genes work re signatures. I write “ N” the same way as my grandmother Flora [ Florrie) as she was called by the family. Almost identical. Dalek.
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That birth date of Leslie Nelson I received from his granddaughter. That was seven years ago. I was going through my old notes and found it. I’d forgotten I had it. Memory. It’s a wonderful thing. If you have it. 🙄😁 Dalek
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Seems strange that James and Mary Nelson registered their other children with the parents names added but not with Leslie and George.
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Majm I searched around and finally got onto a relative of Leslie Nelson. She is going to contact me so hopefully will give me information on Leslie and George Nelson. 🤞. Dalek
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It was a fluke. Someone must be looking after me. 😁
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Looked up West Terrace Cemetery. Deceased Search.
Alfred James Nelson died 20.5.1927 buried Eyre Nth
Hazel May Nelson b Brown. Died 30.8.1938. Eyre Sth
Leslie Nelson died 30.10.1950. Eyre Sth
Edward Nelson died 20.7.1926. Eyre Sth
Mary Jane Nelson Born Donovan died 25.5.1930. Flinders
James Nelson. Died 30.7.1930. Flinders
Ellen Nelson. ( Nellie) died 30.10.1931. Flinders
Mary Jane Nelson (pops) died 26.10.1966. Flinders.
All at West Terrace Cemetery. Adelaide. South Australia
No George Nelson.
But I did find only two George Nelson’s both buried at Centennial Park. Adelaide SA
George Carl Nelson died 16.6.1979. Rose Bush
George Nelson. Died 25.9.1950. Sect 11 drive B Path 43.
Most of James Nelson’s descendants only had one Christian name. Ie. “James.”
Nelson
So where is George Nelson. Son of James and Mary Nelson. Dalek
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It looks like family members were interred in same area Nearby. Dalek
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There is no birth register for either Leslie Nelson or George Nelson in Births. SA Births. ( SAGHS) with father James Nelson. That I can find. Maybe someone can , hopefully. Dalek.
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I have tried obtaining a birth certificate from SA BDM. On Leslie Nelson. ( son of James Nelson) could t get past the date of birth. Said invalid date. I have no other information on day or month only 1899. South Australia. If it rejects the birth date. What next please. Dalek
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I have tried obtaining a birth certificate from SA BDM. On Leslie Nelson. ( son of James Nelson) could t get past the date of birth. Said invalid date. I have no other information on day or month only 1899. South Australia. If it rejects the birth date. What next please. Dalek
I do not know the answer to your question, but I do know that you have posted the dob for Les.
Majm. .....
And I’ve just received a date of Leslie Nelson. Born 15th April 1898. Dalek.
JM
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Image of Leslie's marriage with Hazel is available online here:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCV-N96
24th January 1925
Leslie NELSON aged 26, born Adelaide South Australia, a Bachelor, a Glass Worker, residing Adelaide, father as James NELSON, and Hazel May BROWN aged 21, born Mr Crawford, South Australia, Spinster, Domestic duties, residing Adelaide, father as Charles Stanley BROWN were married by Rev Edward Young, at the Church of S. Mary Magdalene in the district of Adelaide. The official witnesses were: T Pilbin, glass worker of Evandale and C E Brown, Home duty of Adelaide. All signed.
JM
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Thank you Majm. I realised after I sent that post that I had his DOB in a file which I’d forgotten. That date was given to me by a relative. Think I need a new brain. This ones wearing out. I do apologise ..but thank you for your advise. Dalek. 🙄🥴
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Not a good time after lockdown for six months to concentrate on dates etc. best I recover and start again at a later date. Everyone at Rootschat have been very helpful. I thank everyone who have helped me. I won’t shut down this post. Not yet. Hopefully after a break I will try again. Sincerely. Dalek. Xx
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I sent for a birth certificate fir Leslie Nelson. Waiting fir the mail. Will confirm when I receive it. Dalek.
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Hi all
Some info on this thread may be important for a more recent quest re Leslie NELSON.
ADD :) :) :) here: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=856967.0
JM
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Image of Leslie's marriage with Hazel is available online here:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCV-N96
24th January 1925
Leslie NELSON aged 26, born Adelaide South Australia, a Bachelor, a Glass Worker, residing Adelaide, father as James NELSON, and Hazel May BROWN aged 21, born Mr Crawford, South Australia, Spinster, Domestic duties, residing Adelaide, father as Charles Stanley BROWN were married by Rev Edward Young, at the Church of S. Mary Magdalene in the district of Adelaide. The official witnesses were: T Pilbin, glass worker of Evandale and C E Brown, Home duty of Adelaide. All signed.
JM
Please note there is not any provision on the image for details on the mother of either the bride or groom.
JM
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Thank you MAJM. Yes I had all that. I was hoping for the mother’s name. Appreciate your help. Dales. And. A Happy New Year to you and yours. 😄
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Would like to wish all at Rootschat a great Easter. Stay safe and I’ll be in touch later. All the best to you all. And special thanks Dalek.
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And to you and yours too,
JM
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Thanks to all re Leslie Nelson. Thankful fir all the information. I’ve got a lot to digest. Will be in touch. Dalek. 🌺