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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: Tril on Tuesday 24 November 09 01:18 GMT (UK)
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Hello. This is my first post. I'm an American and have been trying to find information about my Austen ancestors, all of whom were English. My great-grandfather James Austen emigrated to America either shortly before the American Civil War (1861-1865) or soon after the war began. He enlisted in the U.S. Army and fought for Abe Lincoln on the Union side (the North), against the Confederacy (the South). He served as first lieutenant in the 22nd New York Cavalry for most of the war, until he mustered out with his unit at the end of the war. He died in California in 1898, and he is buried in Los Angeles.
That is all the information I have about him except that he listed Godalming as his English home when he came to America. He was born in 1831, give or take a year or two. He may have been born in Godalming. His trade when in England was listed as "miller."
I'd appreciate suggestions on how I can find information about him and his family. I live in a rural area in the American midwest and don't have access to big libraries, so all the research I can really do is online research.
Thank you.
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Hi Tril
Welcome to Rootschat. There are lots of people here who will be able to help you with your search.
For starters, I checked the UK Census records to see what I could find out about your James AUSTEN. There is the following, which may, or may not, be of help to you. The name, age and birthplace are a match but not the occupation....
1851 Census England Hampshire Alton
HO107/1679/89/33
High Street
EGLINTON
John Head Marr 32 Minister Wesleyan Oxfordshire Banbury
Eliza Wife Marr 18 Surrey Godalming
James AUSTEN Visitor Unmarr 20 Surrey Godalming
Patience MEPENGER Serv Unmarr 29 General Servant Oxfordshire Milton
I checked the FreeBMD index and found a marriage for an Eliza AUSTEN and a John EGLINTON. Could be that James and Eliza were siblings.
Will see what I can find on the 1841 Census for you just in case this does turn out to be your James.
Cheers
Karenlee
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Hi and welcome to RootsChat
although james is not listed -it seems this is his parents and siblings
1841
High St Godalming Surrey
Isaac Austen 45 Grocer no
Mary 35 no
Ellen 13 yes
Martha 8 yes
George 3 yes
Ann 5 months yes
HO107 1073 4 11 15
Suz
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There is a James of the right age who is a pupil in 1841, in St Giles Camberwell Surrey.... might be the right one.
Cheers
Karenlee
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IGI shows -extracted records
all in Godalming Surrey
all to parennts Isaac Austen/Mary Ann
James Austen b.26 Feb 1831 c. 8 Apr 1831
Isaac Austen b. 10 Jun 1834 c. 12 Sept 1834 died 5 dec 1839
George frederic Austen b.23 dec 1837 c. 9 Mar 1838
Eliza Austen b.14 Nov 1832 c. 12 Dec 1832
Lori Ann Austen b. 22 feb 1826 c 28 mar 1826
Richard Austen b 29 May 1824 c 18 JUl 1824
Martha Austen b. 26 Dec 1835 c. 22 Jun 1836
Ellen Austen b 24 Dec 1827 c 6 feb 1828
Suz
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Thank you, karenlee and Suz! I am truly flabbergasted! This is amazing information, and I'm so grateful for it. Wow!
When I visited England many years ago, an aunt on my birth mom's side mentioned as we were driving by St. Giles churchyard, that my father had long ago wired her money and asked her to buy and place flowers on one of his ancestor's graves there. My aunt told me it was the cemetery made famous by Thomas Gray's "Elegy." I realize there are at least several other cemeteries considered to be the "Elegy" churchyard, but St. Giles is certainly one of them. Since the James Austen you found was a pupil at St. Giles, it seems possible that at least one of his family members was buried there, making it likely that the James Austen you found was my great-grandfather.
My Austen cousins, along with my children and grandchildren, are going to jump for joy, just as I am about to do. It appears that our Austen ancestors have finally been found.
Many thanks again to you both!
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so in 1851 james was with married sister Eliza
and his sister martha waswith married sister Ellen
1851
High St Tonbridge kent
Henery Milns head M 25 Linendraper emmploying 3 men Tonbridge kent
Ellen wife 22 Godalming Surrey
Eliza A daughter 3 Tonbridge kent
William H son 1 Tonbridge kent
Martha Austen sister in law U Godalming Surrey
plus 7 servants ( 2 Milliners, 1 draper's assistant, 1 nurse, 2 House servants
HO107 1615 42
Suz
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Taking this back one generation it gets quite interesting :)
THe IGI gives an extracted mariage entry for an Isaac Austin to Mary Ann Wall, 1/5/1823, Tonbridge, Kent.
The 1851 census has Isaac at Tunbridge High St
Isaac Austen mar 53 Grocer b. Brenchley, Kent
He has 6 employees for his grocery business & 2 house servants.
Mary Ann turns up back in Godalming in 1851,
Mary Ann Austen wife 46 Grocers wife b. Tonbridge, Kent
Selina dau 7 b. Godalming, Sry
Arthur son 4 ditto
4 employed in the grocery & 3 house servants.
Looks as if they are running two grocery businesses, one in Godalming & one in Tonbridge. That being the case there should be more documentation about the family.
There is a death on FreeBMD for an Isaac Austen Q3 1857, Tunbridge. This is probably him as the TNA has a will for Isaac Austen, grocer of Tonbridge, Kent, 3/11/1857. This can be downloaded for 3.50 pounds.
By 1861 Mary Ann is widowed & seems to have moved up to Warwickshire where she's a shop keeper.
I've just looked at the public trees on Ancestry & found someone has already researched this family :P Of course this all has to be double checked;
Isaac's father was John Austen (1758-1820) born Brenchley, Kent. He married Sarah Martin, 1791, Sussex, Delaware, USA.
John's father was another John Austen (1726-1795) born Brenchley. He married Elizabeth Balcombe. This John died 1795, Deer Creek, Hartford co. Maryland. So, many connections with the USA!
If you don't have access to Ancestry but would like to contact this researcher let me know & I'll try to contact him,
jane
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This gets even more exciting. On the Ancestry tree there's even a portrait of Isaac & a photo of his tomb stone! Seems that the Mary Ann I found in 1861, Warwickshire was not her as she's buried with Isaac in 1860 in Tonbridge,
jane
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Thank you, Jane! I'm very excited about all the information you've found. I wish I could find absolute proof that Isaac and Mary Ann Austen's son James was my great-grandfather. At this point it appears there is a good chance he was. The recorded history of the Isaac Austen family is growing more and more complex (and I admit to being confused!), but so far I've seen nothing that would rule their James out as being my ancestor James Austen.
This morning while I was searching online for more information about the Isaac Austen family, I found an entry at another ancestry website from a descendant who wrote that in 1858, two years after Isaac's death in 1856, Mary Ann put her children on a ship and went to South Africa. One brother went to Transvaal, one to southern Rhodesia, and one went to Australia. The entry didn't state whether the brother who went to Australia had first gone to S. Africa. To reply to the entry, one would have to be a paid member of the website, which I'm not, but I had nothing to offer, anyway. My great-grandfather James would have been living in America from at least 1851 or 1852, so I know he didn't go with the family. If Mary Ann was buried in 1860 with Isaac in Tobridge, she must have left S. Africa and returned to England. I don't think bodies were transported great distances for burial at the time - or were they sometimes?
At another website I found an entry from a descendant of Isaac and Mary Ann's who lives in Australia and was looking for other descendants of theirs. His email address was provided, so I emailed him, explaining that I might be a descendant, and sent him the link to this thread. I don't know if I'll hear back from him. Maybe he'll join this forum.
I was amazed to read in your post that Isaac's father, John, was married in America, and that this John's father, also named John, died in America. That seems odd, but so did the S. Africa information!
Yes, I'd like very much if you'd try to contact the researcher on Ancestry. Maybe you could direct him here. Would that work? However you decide to handle it would be fine with me.
Oh, my goodness, how I would love to see a portrait of Isaac, and a photo of his tombstone Do you know the name of the cemetery? As I'd mentioned in an earlier post, I was once told that an ancestor - or ancestors - of my father's were buried in one of the possible Gray's "Elegy" churchyards, and I've wondered about it for years.
Thanks again for all you've done!
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Hi Tril, I used to live in Godalming, its a really lovely old place steeped in history. I wondered if you might be interested in the web-site www.godalming-tc.gov.uk/ it might be of some interest to you. Regards T
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Thank you, treasure. I'd like very much to learn about Godalming. I'll visit the website now. :)
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Tril,
The trees on Ancestry that I looked at were public trees so I think you should be able to view them (I might be wrong) Have a go, just put in James's particulars with father Isaac & mother, Mary Ann. If this doesn't work for you, get back to me. To be able to contact the researcher, yes, you would have to be a member, so I can help you there.
Have you traced James's marriage? This would give you his father's name, proof positive that Isaac was his father.
If Mary Ann died abroad I don't think they would have brought her body back, so maybe that information is erroneous :-\
jane
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I can see your confusion concerning the entry on Curious Fox re Mary Ann going to SA. The youngest son, George Elvey is clearly mentioned, so maybe she did go but returned before her death. Out & in bound passenger lists are available on Ancestry but unfortunately my sub doesn't cover them.
It might be worth taking your enquiry over to the Kent board on Rootschat as it's now looking that the family was from that county. If you do, make a link to this thread so that information doesn't get duplicated.
jane
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Jane,
A cousin of mine has lots of information about James's wife Julia's family, and may have a copy of the marriage certificate. I'll ask.
As you suggested, I'll also visit the Kent forum here at Rootschat.
Thank you. :)
Tril
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Jane,
Oops, I clicked "Post" before saying thanks for suggesting I try finding some helpful information at Ancestry. I'll do that now.
Thanks,
Tril
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I think there's quite a possibility that your Austen family has a link with the family of Jane Austen, the author. I found this nice site;
http://www.writersgate.co.uk/map/janeaustinweb.pdf
Also I found this document from the Surrey History Centre's online collection, which gives the location of Isaac's shop in Godalming.
Two houses at the bottom end of Godalming High Street, one formerly in the occupation of Thomas Collins and the other of Mary Spoll and Thomas Collins, now both in the occupation of George Collins and Isaac Austen.
Keen pays £1650, of which £1150 goes to Stedman to pay off the Mortgage
The original Mortgage was from Thomas Chitty butcher to John Sparkes and Daniel Hampton in 1769
Personally I feel sure that your James is the one we've found, son of Isaac & Mary Ann. His marriage certificate should confirm this or the will of Isaac that I mentioned in an earlier post might mention James & the fact that he was in the USA.
Link to Godalming museum; http://www.waverley.gov.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=307&pageNumber=3
I don't know why this link is not 'live', but just Google Godalming Museum.
jane
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Jane, I've emailed my cousin to see if she has a copy of James's marriage certificate. Now I'm going to try to find information on Isaac's will that would indicate James's whereabouts. Thanks for suggesting that at least one of those sources might give some answers.
My, it would be something if it turned out that I'm a distant cousin's of Jane Austen's. All this time while searching for "Austen" on the Internet, I'd been typing "-Jane" into the search slot, so that web sources containing her name wouldn't appear and distract me. Yes, it would be something, all right. I'd like that.
So, Isaac's shop was at the bottom of High Street. Yesterday at the Godalming website, I saw that a web cam was set up on High Street. Just for fun, I'm going to have a look. All this information is so exciting for me!
During an Internet search, I found Isaac Austen mentioned in this article, "Methodism in Normandy":
http://normandyhistorians.co.uk/aandp17.html
(snip) "He [James Horne] later took over preaching at Pinks Hill with Isaac Austen of the Sevenoaks Circuit, who had come to Godalming to work with the local preacher Mr Golding."
~~
Isaac Austen is also featured (starting on Page 6) in an article called "The Church in the Wilderness," which too is about Wesleyan Methodist preacher James Horne:
http://normandyhistorians.co.uk/library/pw27.pdf
In the above article, there is mention of a Wesleyan missionary program in South Africa. I wonder if the missionary program could be what led Isaac's family to emigrate there after his death.
Thank you so much for all your help!
Tril
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Tril, the will can be downloaded from the National Archives site;
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
I've just been searching around again & found evidence on the Ancestry public trees that Arthur Elvey Austen did indeed go to SA as he married Elizabeth Susannah Jorden FRANCIS, 10/12/1870, Good Hope, Eastern Cape, SA. He died in 1919.
I've also found that Isaac's daughter, Ellen, who married Henry G. Milns, 30/3/1847, Godalming, tragically died a week after her husband from injuries sustained from a fire in Tonbridge. She died 18/1/1856. I'm trying to get more information. It looks like their children survived & went to her husband's parents. I'll get back to you when I've more info,
jane
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Jane, I'm now waiting to hear from TNA as to how I, an American, can pay for a copy of Isaac's will. I don't know if my credit card will work in England.
I filled out a free family tree at Ancestry, but I got nothing except notices that to find out more about the possible matches, I'd have to pay. If I had the money to do so, I would, but it's out of the question right now.
I've emailed the St. Louis Public Library in St. Louis, Missouri for James's immigration date. The Library offers such look-ups, even for immigrants arriving in states other than Missouri. It could take several weeks to get the information, but I think knowing when James emigrated from England could be very helpful.
What an awful tragedy about Isaac's daughter Ellen and her husband Henry dying as the result of a fire! Glad the Milns children survived, but how sad about their parents.
So, it appears that S. Africa was indeed in the picture. Interesting!
I think I should probably wait to see what Isaac's will says regarding heirs before I request information at the Kent board. I, like you, feel sure Isaac was my great-great grandfather, but to avoid embarrassment if it turns out he's not, I'd first like to make absolutely certain he is, if I can.
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Hello from another American researcher TNA works great with American VISA Instant gratification Visa only charged about 15 cents for currency conversion Worked out to $5.75 for a will Happy Thanksgiving LIZR
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Thanks very much for the information, marimerclark. :) I'll order the will now.
Tril
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Isaac Austen's will was very easy to download, but it's certainly not easy to read! I can make out enough of the words, though, to know that the name, James, isn't on the document.
Isaac bequeathed everything to his wife, Mary Ann, and appointed Mary Ann "to be Guardian of My Infant Children." He appointed Mary Ann, his daughter Martha Austen and his son George (can't read middle name, but it doesn't look at all like Durrant) Austen as executors. Witnesses are Henry Austen (can't read what is written in smaller script after his name. It looks like "Bronckly") and George Durrant Austen, Soliciiter, 28 Laurence Lane, Lo???ton.
The date of the will is June 17, 1857.
No James. I wonder if he had already emigrated to the States.
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Just keep reading and you will get the hang of the different letters I still have a married daughter's name I cant read. LizR
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Liz is right. The more you read the document the easier it becomes with the handwriting & archaic legal terms.
LIZ, why not put your deciphering problem on this board.....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,425.0.html
Back to Austen's. Tril, George's second name might be 'Frederick', that's the name I noticed from his birth reg. on FreeBMD.
James must have set sail for the States sometime after March 30 1851, that's the date of the 1851 census & he was with his sister, Eliza, in Hampshire on that night.
I was looking for information concerning the fire in Tonbridge which took the lives of Henry George Milns & his wife, Ellen, James's sister. Sadly I couldn't find anything. I read on one of the Ancestry trees that their daughter later had an illegitimate daughter & both emmigrated to Australia.
I think information that you might find in the States concerning James is going to give you some important clues. Are you near an LDS centre?
Why James wasn't in the will? Maybe he was estranged from his father?
jane
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Liz and Jane, yes, the more I study the will, the easier it is to make out the words. Amazing. I'd all but given up.
Jane, if Frederick is the middle name I couldn't read, it would be yet another clue. My grandfather's and my dad's middle names were both Frederick.
Yesterday I contacted the St. Louis Public Library in St. Louis, Missouri, and requested a search for James Austen's immigration records, or his name on a ship's passenger list. I said he would have emigrated from England sometime between an unknown date in 1851 and September 1862, when he enlisted in the Union Army.
The Library offers this service regardless of where the immigrant settled in the U.S., but it so happens that St. Louis is where James's son, my grandfather, made his home and brought up his family.
I wonder if James would have had to have been naturalized as a U.S. citizen to enlist in the army and/or to remain in the States after the war. Maybe he maintained dual citizenship. I'm going to see what information I can find about this.
Would LDS refer to Latter Day Saints (the Mormons)? If so, no, I'm not near a center, but I found a weblink for the research website. I will see what I can accomplish there. Thanks for the suggestion.
Another Australia connection! I wonder if the Milns's daughter and child went there to stay with the son of Isaac who'd gone there instead of to South Africa.
I too have been wondering if James was estranged from his father. James's history gets curiouser and curiouser.
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Dear Jane I know Rootschat could help but I need to learn to cut and paste from my documents clear to a Rootschat topic Have kids so maybe I can do this over the weekend.
Tril Capital L looks like a cursive s in my will and look at the word the. The e is very different I thought my ancestor had two daughters named Mary The other was Mercy but they looked very similar. LizR
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Liz, in my will, the letter L looks like S too, and the e's are odd - and in mine, the d's look like b's. Once I get all the letters figured out, though, I think I'll be able to read the will as slick as a whistle. :D
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There's an excellent online tutorial on reading old documents at TNA
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/
Also this link
http://genealogy.about.com/od/paleography/qt/old_script.htm
jane
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Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread pertaining to my great-grandfather, James Austen.
A special thank you goes to Jane Masri for all the extra research she did for me, and for guiding me down the right pathways.
You all are wonderful! :)
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Hi all.
I collect Austen family trees. I am interested in confirming the link between Isaac Austen and Jane Austen. I know there is debate about particular family connections.
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Hi,
I have been contacted by a distant cousin, Paul in S. Africa re the Isaac Austen headstone photo and it turns out that the Australian connection mentioned in the various posts on this site is also my branch of the family. So to put it in perspective:
Bert (self)
father Milton Austin GEORGE
gfather John Austin GEORGE
ggfather Joseph GEORGE m2 Eliza Ann MILNS
gggmother Ellen (Austen) Milns m Henry George MILNS
the latter 2 died in the fire mentioned in the various posts and 2 of the family Eliza and her sister emigrated to Australia and William Henry MILNS later a clergyman emigrated to the USA. All of this family tree I have on MyHeritage.com and if you would like membership of this site you are welcome but I would need your direct email to invite you. My direct email is bertgeor@internode.on.net. I also have a guest (public) tree on Ancestry.com but subscribe to MyHeritage.com. My direct email is bertgeor@internode.on.net.
Regards
Bert George.
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Hi, Bert, and thank you for your post. I was very excited to read it. Little by little, the mystery surrounding my great-grandfather James Austen's family is being lifted, which is thrilling.
I've sent you an email. I'd like to be invited to join your MyHeritage website.
Thank you!
Eleanor Austen DeHaai
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From S. Africa. My husband is the gr.grandson of Arthur Elvey Austen who came to S. Africa with his mother Mary Ann Austen in 1858 on the ship "the Shepherdess". An uncle wrote some notes on the history of Isaac Austen based on what he was told by his father and grandfather. He went to Tonbridge in the 70's and took the photo of Isaac's gravestone so I have a clear copy: the inscription reads:"To the memory of the late ISAAC AUSTEN who died at Tonbridge August 23rd 1857, Aged 60 years....then a few lines from scripture....then underneath......ALSO MARY ANN, Widow of the above who died at Grahamstown South Africa June 25 1859 aged 55 years". A voyage from SA to UK took +-90 days then so I doubt her remains are in that grave-the inscription just a tribute to her.
I will write another post dealing with the family that came here to S.Africa including I believe, James Austen.
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Thank you so much, Tuppy! This is wonderful. I look forward to your post about the Austens in South Africa.
I'm so excited, I'm trembling!
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It is known that some of Isaac Austen's children came to South Africa. Richard came here before Isaac died. Evidence for Richard, James, Martha, and Arthur Elvey Austen can be found in our govt archives.
The evidence for James is "MASTER OF THE SUPREME COURT VERSUS JAMES B AUSTEN IN HIS CAPACITY AS EXECUTOR TESTAMENTARY OF THE ESTATE OF THE LATE RICHARD AUSTEN. ACTION FOR AN ACCOUNT. 1881.
I believe this James may have been Richard's brother as there is a death notice for him in 1889. Richard ,I believe came to SA in 1847 and the archives show a James Austen being associated with a family crest in 1852. Does anyone know whether Isaac's son ,James ,was James Brunswick Austen ?
The only other possibility of the James listed as executor in Richard's estate is possibly a son BUT I only know he had a son Samuel Charles Austen
I also have the family trees that link Isaac Austen to Jane Austen as distant cousins.
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Hi Ferntree
I have an old webpage of the Austen decendency chart showing how Isaac Austen 1797 is connected to Jane Austen. I don't think it is on the web any more. It is quite long but if you would like a copy I can send if you would like to give me your email address
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Hi Ferntree
I also noted your comments and have a webpage connecting me to Isaac and Jane but would like a copy of what you have to compare notes. Here's my email address:
bertgeor@internode.on.net
Regards,
Bert (prickles07)
'I have an old webpage of the Austen decendency chart showing how Isaac Austen 1797 is connected to Jane Austen. I don't think it is on the web any more. It is quite long but if you would like a copy I can send if you would like to give me your email address.'
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...I've just looked at the public trees on Ancestry & found someone has already researched this family :P Of course this all has to be double checked;
Isaac's father was John Austen (1758-1820) born Brenchley, Kent. He married Sarah Martin, 1791, Sussex, Delaware, USA.
... Jane
Checked this marriage;
Although the parish is not shown, there is a chance this marriage might have taken place in Sussex as that was where Sarah Marten was from, so there might be more information in the Sussex Marriage Index.
Pallot's Marriage Index for England: 1780 - 1837
Name: John Austen
Residence: of Brenchley co Kent
Comment: Carpenter, bachr, act 32
Spouse: Sarah Martin
Spouse's Residence: of Wadhurst
Spouse Comments: act 21; spinster.
Marriage Date: 1791
Parish: Sussex
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Hi Tuppy. I have just seen your message.
I am very interested in anything you have.
My address is:
austenbjjr@trump.net.au
Brian Austen
Hobart
Hi Ferntree
I have an old webpage of the Austen decendency chart showing how Isaac Austen 1797 is connected to Jane Austen. I don't think it is on the web any more. It is quite long but if you would like a copy I can send if you would like to give me your email address
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Hi, my step father has been told for years that he is somehow related to the Austen family but we are not sure in what way. What he believes is that one of the Austen nephews emigrated to Australia and one of his daughters married into the McLaughlin family which is my step dads mothers family. If anyone has any information that can help our search it would be appreciated. My email address is sacha@insurance.com.au.
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Hi Fraser_S,
I had a quick look at the Index BDM for an austen(in) mclaughlin marriage and found one:
Registration Number Groom's Surname Groom's Given Name(s) Bride's Last Name
at Time of Marriage Bride's Given Name(s) District * Purchase Certificate
13302/1945 MCLAUGHLIN CHARLES HERVYNE AUSTIN MARJORIE EDITH SYDNEY
Maybe that's worth checking out!
Regards
Bert George
bertgeor@internode.on.net