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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: stmha on Saturday 21 November 09 21:15 GMT (UK)
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My Great grandfather x 3 Joseph Hart emigrated from siemiatycze in 1815 with his brother Mordecai.They moved to canterbury and I am very interested if anyone knows how to get any records from this area of Poland
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Hi :)
These sites might be a good place to start:
http://www.jri-poland.org/
http://www.shtetlinks.jewishgen.org/BialyGen/Homepage.htm
Kind regards
Gaie
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Hello Mark,
As far as I can establish, none of the vital records for the Jewish community of Siemiatycze have survived.
More importantly, what evidence do you have that Siemiatycze was Joseph's birthplace?
Also, what evidence do you have that links Joseph and Mordechai?
Justin
PS Did you ever get that Oesterman marriage certificate?
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Hi Justin
Hope you are well. I found Mordecai's naturalization papers and it states the town and region - 'siemiatycze near Bielsk in the province of Lithuania in the Kingdom of Poland' and gives the year as 1815. I also found at Canterbury archives held at the cathedral offices a few references to the Hart Family. One in particular was a book with family trees in the appendix. It was written by a member of the synagogue which Mordecai helped find the funding to build. In the book it shows how the 2 are related and also gives Joseph's wife Miriam.
mark
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Justin
I did get the marriage cert eventually and founf that the names of their parents werent quite what I was expecting. Louis' father was Joseph oesterman and Rosa levy's father was Samuel Levy.
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Hello Mark,
I am well thank you. Trust you are too.
What an incredible find that book of family trees was! An absolute treasure. Mordechai must have naturalised very early on. Did the naturalization papers name his parents?
One related piece of info I can across:
Sarah Hart (Soreh bat Yosef Tsvi) married Harris King (Baruch Tsvi b. Elimelech) in London's Great Synagogue on 20 Aug 1856.
I would never have thought of King as a Jewish surname, but when one realises that the Hebrew name Elimelech means 'God is my king', it shouldn't be too surprising. The name was often shortened to Melech which means king.
Why were you surprised about the names of Louis' and Rosa's fathers? I shall recheck our earlier thread, but I think they are exactly what I would have expected.
Justin
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Hi Mark,
we spoke in the chatroom a couple of days ago about Siemiatycze.
Just to keep all the information in one place (and for the benefit of anybody else following this :) )
Siemiatycze is a town in north-eastern Poland, with 15,209 inhabitants (2004).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemiatycze
There is a map on this page showing that it is very close to the border with Belorussia (White Russia)
The german wiki page is more informative:
Bei der Dritten Teilung Polens 1795 wurde Siemiatycze Teil Preußens, 1807 Russlands. [...]
Ende des 19. Jahrhunderts waren etwa 75 Prozent der Einwohner Juden
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemiatycze
i.e from 1795, it was part of Prussia, from 1807 it was part of Russia. At the end of the 19th. century the population was approx 75% jewish.
The reference to Lithuania probably refers to this:
With the Lublin Union of 1569 Poland and Lithuania formed a new state, the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. The Commonwealth lasted more than two centuries, until neighboring countries systematically dismantled it from 1772 to 1795, with the Russian Empire annexing most of Lithuania's territory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania
Good luck,
Bob
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Justin
Thats excellent that you have the hebrew names for Sarah and Harris King. At some stage Harris changed his name to Henry Harris and this is the name that is remembered by family members when I was younger. Not sure why the name was changed, do you know if there was a legal process relating to name changes, it happened between 1861 and 1864. Mordecai was naturalised in 1848. Was it a requirement for naturalization to happen to all immigrants.
mark
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Bob
thanks for the info
mark
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Mark,
I do not believe there was any real process for changing one's name back then. The NA website might give some pointers. I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was sufficient to publish the name change in a reasonably widely-read newspaper or even in the London Gazette. Deed polls are a much later legal formality.
Very few imigrants became naturalized subjects, especially at that early time. The proces wasn't free and there were few real advantages. The pressure to become naturalised increased towards the end of the century as the numbers of imigrants increased quite dramatically.
I checked my Oesterman notes and the marriage cert has confirmed my theory that Louis was the son of Joseph Hartog Oesterman.
Justin
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Justin
Thanks for the info, I was hoping that maybe they had all been naturalised but it looks as though Mordecai made a strategical decision. Funny really as Joseph and Mordecai's pathways seemed to be split, Mordecai's led to fame and fortune and Joseph went bankcrupt and was found dead in the street. I found a document that looks like it maybe a map of a cemetary where he maybe buried. Mordecai's family went onto to do great things but its still good to know we share a strong bloodline.
The Oestermans were as you stated, I got confused as Joseph Hartog Oesterman and Hartog Oesterman are one of the same man.
mark
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Mark,
Now you've made me curious. What fame and fortune did Mordechai achieve?
Hartog Mozes Oesterman (1764-1835) was the father of Joseph Hartog Oesterman (b. 12 Feb 1800).
Hartog was the son of Mozes Meijer (1729-1800), who was the son of Meijer Mozes (d. 16 Aug 1772).
Oesterman was adopted as a surname in 1811.
Justin
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Justin
That's amazing and I am almost speechless. How did you find this out. I am really struggling getting past the obvious sources from the web (e.g. ancestry). Clearly your knowledge is vast so please point me in the right direction or give me some clues. Do you know any family members or other descendants.
With regard Mordecai, there several references to him in the archives library in canterbury. He was instrumental in the building of the synagogue in canterbury and looked to mix with some very influential people including members of parliament. He mad a contribution to the build and therefore can only assume was also wealthy (unlike his brother). He was a pawnbroker and silversmith in canterbury and he certainly voted in the 1847 elections. He had 8 children of which Henry went on to be the first Jewish Mayor canterbury in 1869 and again in 1870. His brother Israel was mayor of Leicester and was knighted in 1895. They clearly mixed in influential circles.
Have you managed to look at my tree on ancestry, it has more info
I cant thank you enough and would love to hear more about how I develop my level of skill in genealogical research.
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Justin
I have refound my confusion over the Oesterman question. I have Louis' father as Joseph Oesterman. Louis was born in 1800 which is the same year you have for Joseph and I am wondering if I have somehow mixed up Joseph's. Can you help
My email is (*) if you would like to visit the ancestry site I will add you to the guest list just let me know
mark
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Justin
OK I am officially not confused. I have Joseph as father and also duplicated him as a sibling with the same birthdate. Apologies for being dim
mark
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Hartog Joseph
Birth1764
Amsterdam, North Holland, Netherlands
Death 27 MAY 1835
Amsterdam, North Holland, Netherlands
Family Info
Father Mozes 'Meyer' OESTERMAN FREMDER (1729-1800)
Mother Aagje 'Samuel' SANTE-ZANTE (1734-1801)
Spouse Judic-Jettele 'Mozes' OSSEDRIJVER (1766-1840)
Married 1819
Children Meyer 'Hartog' (1786-1841) Rebecca 'Hartog' (1794-) David 'Hartog' (1797-) Joseph 'Hartog' (1800-) Aagje 'Hartog' (1804-) Duifje 'Hartog' (1809-)
Just found this on another tree on ancestry however the rest of the tree has some major discrepancies
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Mark,
I'll try to send you an email.
Justin
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would like to hear if you found any birth or marriage records. JRI Poland says there may be some at LDS but they would be in Polish. Have you ever used LDS records?
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Dear Kayelinda
I do occasionally use LDS but havent found a great deal. I am afraid I have come to a standstill with the Siematycze side of my family. Any thoughts
Mark
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Has anyone used JRI Poland and then subsequently sent for LDS records. I think I am at a standstill too but JRI was wonderful to use after finding the name of the stetl on the manifest--which I had missed before.