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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: mckenzieclan on Thursday 19 November 09 20:22 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I have been trying in vain to find WWI service information on my gr grand-father.
His name was Alexander McKenzie.
Born May 8th 1896, Stevenston, Ayrshire
Father: Robert Miller McKenzie
Mother: Elizabeth Cringle
Spouse: Jessie McCullough - Married 1915
I also know from a short biography that was written about him upon his retirement that he enlisted in 1914, served in the Maching Gun Corps, fought at Hill 60, Ypres, and Mons.
I do know the MGC was not established until 1915, and from family information it is recalled that he served in two different combat outfits.
Likely he enlisted in a Territorial Force, and then transferred to the MGC. Ayrshire Yeomanry is possible, however they spend most of the war in the Balkans. My grand-father remembers a picture of him in his uniform holding a riding crop, and informed me he thought he was a mounted machine gunner.
I have searched on various commercial sources (Ancestry), as well as posted on WWI research specific forums, and so far have not found a definitive answer. There were quite a few Alexander McKenzie who served in the MGC.
I was hoping that someone here might have a few other resources, perhaps local to Ayrshire that might help.
I appreciate any advice.
Scott McKenzie
Ontario, Canada
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Hi
Unfortunately - 60% of WWI Service records were destroyed by fire during World War Two bombings.
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Yes, I am aware. This is the reason I am looking for other primary sources.
Perhaps the local newspapers at the time carried lists of local men's enlistments, I have seen churches that listed all the men of the parish that served.
Most I know only list those who died, however I have seen some that listed them all, and indicated those who made the ultimate sacrifice seperately.
Looking I guess for suggestions from locals, or local Ayrshire historians. So far, no luck anywhere.
Anyone?
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It appears there were two Alexander McKENZIEs served in the Great War:
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~sctayr/herald/honourrollalpha.html
Alexander McKenzie 00-11-1914 Ardrossan, 57 Kilmahew Street
Alexander McKenzie 00-11-1914 Saltcoats, Canal Street
I have also checked http://www.cwgc.org/ & http://www.snwm.org/website/frames.html
although nothing jumped out at me. Perhaps your eyes may be better. Your suspicion that he served in two Regiments MAY BE the clue that leads you to him. Was he KIA or did he survive the Great War?
A further website to check and make any enquiry on:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/
Kind regards.
Q98 (formerly of Saltcoats)
Fremantle
Western Australia
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Thanks.. I looked at the first list and nothing jumps out.
1901 census has his in Stevenston, and when he emigrated to Canada in 1926 his address is listed in Kilwinning.
What is the source of that list?
He did survive the war, so he wouldn't be in the war dead site. And I have posted already on the 1914-1918 forum.
I have contacted Ayrshire archives to see if they have the Absent Voters list from 1918, they do not and suggested I contact National Archives, I have sent an enquiry and am waiting on their answer.
Thanks for the help.. the search continues..
Scott :-)
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G'day Scott
What street in Stevenston do you believe he was born in?
My reason for asking is the present day Saltcoats was formerly divided between two Registration Districts/Parishes; these being Stevenston and Ardrossan. Ergo, although then it was recorded as "Stevenston", more contemporary records MAY show "Saltcoats".
Worth checking out?
Q98
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Hello,
His birth registration lists Shore Rd., Stevenston...
Scott
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Shore Road is in Stevenston. Have you checked out www.threetowners.com ??
Jim
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Yes, I have posted on that forum as well...
And read a great deal about the area there as well, it is a great a site.
But so for no luck on this issue...
Thanks,
Scott
Right now I am pinning my hopes on his name being on the Absent Voters List (if I can find a copy), if it is the service info, regiment name and # should be there also.
Crossing fingers...
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Good luck mate.
Jim
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Hi Scott
The source of the info on ....
McKenzie Alexander 00-11-1914 Ardrossan, 57 Kilmahew Street
McKenzie Alexander 00-11-1914 Saltcoats, Canal Street
....is the Glasgow Herald/Evening Times Roll of Honour, but these can't be your man as this Roll of Honour commemorates those who died in WWI.
I assume that you've had a look at the Medal Cards on Ancestry. There's a very tempting entry for an Alexander McKenzie who transferred to the MGC on 26Oct1915, but he'd first served in the 1/6th Gordons, - the Banff and Donside Territorial Bn, - and there's a thread on http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com (The Great War forum) that identifies him as having been born in Dyce.
The local paper is the Ardrossan & Saltcoats Herald. While they do have some indexes these, so far, are only BMD related. You're quite correct that may well be a reference to a local man having signed up with ......
... the 'natural' regiment for a man from N Ayrshire would be the Royal Scots Fusiliers. Given that he enlisted early on it's more than likely that he went for his local regiment; but then, if his parents were from "McKenzie country" he may have gone for a regiment local to that area. If they were from Ayrshire, then the RSF has to be the favourite.
Medal cards are reasonably reliable in terms of showing transfers, and there's no records where an RSF man transferred to the MGC (actually I think there was one, but it was one of the small proportion where an address was shown on the back and it wasn't anywhere near N Ayrshire!).
I can confirm that there are no obvious matching pension records or service records. As regards the former only a small proportion of men received a pension, and most often only if they had been wounded, - that included being gassed. These records have survived in their entirety, being stored in a different archive from the service records which were partially zapped by the Luftwaffe in WWII.
Some expert somewhere may be able to identify for you which company of the MGC served at Hill 60, Ypres, and Mons. BTW, see http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/hill60.html for info on that location.
It could be worth researching this action further to see what info is available on MGC Cos. involved.
If an MGC Coy. can be identified then there may be a surviving War Diary for the unit. At the battalion level there is a high survival rate of war diaries, with an ever increasing number coming on line via TNA, but I have no experience as regards war diaries for the MGC.
A query on http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com could be worth a punt.
Orraverybest
David
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Good luck mate.
Jim
Thanks Jim, I appreciate your ideas..
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Hi Scott
... the 'natural' regiment for a man from N Ayrshire would be the Royal Scots Fusiliers. Given that he enlisted early on it's more than likely that he went for his local regiment; but then, if his parents were from "McKenzie country" he may have gone for a regiment local to that area. If they were from Ayrshire, then the RSF has to be the favourite.
Medal cards are reasonably reliable in terms of showing transfers, and there's no records where an RSF man transferred to the MGC (actually I think there was one, but it was one of the small proportion where an address was shown on the back and it wasn't anywhere near N Ayrshire!).
I can confirm that there are no obvious matching pension records or service records. As regards the former only a small proportion of men received a pension, and most often only if they had been wounded, - that included being gassed. These records have survived in their entirety, being stored in a different archive from the service records which were partially zapped by the Luftwaffe in WWII.
Some expert somewhere may be able to identify for you which company of the MGC served at Hill 60, Ypres, and Mons. BTW, see http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/hill60.html for info on that location.
It could be worth researching this action further to see what info is available on MGC Cos. involved.
If an MGC Coy. can be identified then there may be a surviving War Diary for the unit. At the battalion level there is a high survival rate of war diaries, with an ever increasing number coming on line via TNA, but I have no experience as regards war diaries for the MGC.
A query on http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com could be worth a punt.
Orraverybest
David
Thanks David,
I have spent several hours looking at more Alexander McKenzies that I ever thought were possible. Nothing stood out for me...
I will examine both Royal Scots Fusiler's as well as possibly linking MGC Coy. to those battles to further whittle own my list of suspects.
Thanks for the ideas... I appreciate everyone's help...
Sc ott
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OK, after some googling on the Royal Scots Fusiliers, I ended up finding and purchasing a downloadable copy of this book.
http://youroldbooksandmaps.co.uk/the-royal-scots-fusiliers-ww1.html
An interesting item turned up during my RSF quick research.
One Coy of the RSF was the Ardeer Company, whcih can be summarized as such.
The Ardeer Company
August 1914 : in Ardeer. This Company had been formed in 1913 as a local guard by the Nobel's Explosive Works. It appears to have been disbanded in November 1914, having handed over guard duties to the Scottish Rifles, although it continued to appear in the Army List.
From my great grandfathers short Bio I have, it is indicated that he worked at the Nobel Explosive Factory before WWI.
In the lists downloaded, there is a McKenzie, A.W. listed as a Lt.
I am not aware of any middle name for my Gr. Grand-father but it is a possibility.
If anyone can help me interpret the list please send me a PM, and I can email the .pdf.
I will also update my posts on 1914-1918 board and Threetowners.
Thoughts, advice?
Scott
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EXCELLENT find Scott. This may be exactly the break you were awaiting.
Ardeer was in the sand-dunes of Stevenston and, over the decades, employed generations of the same families; eg. my grandfather, my father, myself, my brother.
Suggest searching www.ayrshireroots.com "Ardrossan and Saltcoats Herald" BDM notices OR to save you registering, I'll check on your behalf tonight.
Jim
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Scott
Check out the following links which MAY provide additional info:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t950.html
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AYRSHIRE/2001-04/0986537605
They contain interesting reading.
Jim
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Yes, those are both interesting.
I had read the first link before, but not the second...
I do have an account on Ayrshireroots....
I searched for a marriage announcement, but no luck.
The once notice for Alexander McKenzie that does show up in the war years is the death notice for Alexander McKenzie (1903) that would be my Gr Grandfather's, Grandfather....
Still searching...
Scott
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That Death Certificate/Extract MAY provide you with his 2nd forename. Check the following:
Scottish Patronymics
(Naming Customs)
The general custom, to which there were some variations, was to name children as follows:
Eldest son named after paternal grandfather
Second son named after maternal grandfather
Third son named after father
Fourth son named after father’s oldest brother
Fifth son named after father’s second oldest brother OR mother’s oldest brother
Eldest daughter named after maternal grandmother.
Second daughter named after paternal grandmother.
Third daughter named after mother.
Four daughter named after mother’s oldest sister.
Fifth daughter name after mother’s second oldest sister OR father’s oldest sister.
Younger children would be named after earlier forebears, but the pattern in their case was less settled.
("In search of Scottish Ancestry" by Gerald Hamilton-Edwards, Phillimore, 1983 Edition).
Always be aware, this was not a hard and fast rule, but a common practice.
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He was the eldest... names after his paternal grandfather.
He died in Canada, seemingly would make it simple, but here in Canada getting copies of birth and death records thatare this recent is difficult.
Luckly, I can ask my Grandfather if he remembers his Father's midle name.
If it begins with a W, I might have my man.. will post back.
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It's been quite a search mate, so fingers and toes crossed here in Australia for you.
I'd suggest an e-mail enquiry to:
localhistory[at]north-ayrshire.gov.uk (replace[at]with@)(Attn: Ms Jill McColl)
Ask if they hold a record of the men who served in The Ardeer Company which was formed by Nobel's Explosives Company to guard the Ardeer factory in the event of war. IF the records exist, the North Ayrshire Local History Unit is the place I would DEFINITELY contact. I would suggest you make it clear you are not seeking a complete list of the individuals, rather endeavouring to confirm Alexander McKenzie served in the Company and attempting to determine his second forename; or something similar.
Jim
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Hi Scott
Right, I need to change hats !, - I was approaching the situation entirely from a military records viewpoint, but I need to change to being a genealogist :)
His name was Alexander McKenzie.
Born May 8th 1896, Stevenston, Ayrshire
Father: Robert Miller McKenzie
Mother: Elizabeth Cringle
Alexander's father was indeed Robert Miller McKENZIE, but, witness his 1894 marriage record, and Alexander's 1896 birth record, Robert doesn't appear to have used his middle name.
It derives from his mother's mother's maiden surname, MILLER.
These are the wains of Alexander McKENZIE, Coal Miner, and Mary McKENZIE MS MILLER
MARY MCKENZIE
b. 29 NOV 1861 Stevenston
MARGARET MCKENZIE
b. 02 SEP 1863 Stevenston
ANN MCKENZIE
b. 09 MAY 1868 Stevenston
SAMUEL MCKENZIE
b. 12 OCT 1871 Stevenston
ROBERT MILLER MCKENZIE
b. 25 JUN 1874
(Info from the Mormon familysearch.org website, which is free; for 1855 to 1875 these records are based on the GROS register books of births, so are very accurate, - in fact better than the ScotlandsPeople indexes in terms of content :o.)
As you noted, Alexander married Jessie McCULLOCH on 4th June 1915 in Kilwinning, his address being shown as 5 Ardoch Crescent in Stevenson.
His occupation is shown as "Factory Worker". If he had been in the army at this time this would (at least should?!) have been shown as well, e.g. the entry above shows Alexander SMITH as "Tramway Motorman, Gunner 2nd Lowland Brigade RFA" (Royal Field Artillery).
Had Alexander been in the army, this should have been shown. If he was in a local Territorial unit, this may not have been shown.
Even if he wasn't then there was plenty time between the marriage in early June and the creation of the MGC in Oct 1915 fro him to have been called up or volunteered and ended up first in another unit. Have a close look at the TNA Kew website to understand which medals he could and couldn't have been awarded on the basis of these dates.
Given the 1915 marriage it's possible that there was one or more child between the marriage and his discharge in 1918/1919.
Any such birth record should show his army unit.
There's 17 McKenzie births in Stevenston and Kilwinning (Jessie could well have gone back to her mammy's while her hubby was on active service abroad).
1915 MCKENZIE SARAH KILWINNING
1915 MCKENZIE JOHN KILWINNING
1915 MCKENZIE JOAN PATERSON STEVENSTON
1915 MCKENZIE HUGH MCALLISTER STEVENSTON
1915 MCKENZIE CHRISTINA MALLO STEVENSTON
1916 MCKENZIE ELIZABETH LAMON KILWINNING
1916 MCKENZIE ELIZABETH RAMSA KILWINNING
1916 MCKENZIE HANNAH KILWINNING
1916 MCKENZIE JAMES M KILWINNING
1917 MCKENZIE MARGARET LENNON STEVENSTON
1918 MCKENZIE JOAN PATERSON STEVENSTON
1918 MCKENZIE JOHN STEVENSTON
1918 MCKENZIE ROBERT ALEXANDE KILWINNING
1919 MCKENZIE JOHN STEVENSTON
1918 MCKENZIE ALEXANDERINA TE STEVENSTON
1919 MCKENZIE SARAH STEVENSTON
1919 MCKENZIE WILLIAM STEVENSTON
There's no obvious middle name links, but I'd look first at
the 1915 Hugh, the 1916 Hannah, and the 1918 Robert
Alexander ......, except that these images aren't on line !,
so, via ScotlandsPeople you'd have to buy the "extracts" at
£10 apiece !
You father may have info to narrow down the search ?..........
As noted above if there are wartime births from the marriage then
his unit will be shown; possibly, for the MGC, down to battalion or
company level !
Or, wait a while, as there's a chance I'll be in Edinburgh in the next
couple of weeks, and it's about 15 minutes or less to to look up these
records !
The Ardeer Company "A W McKenzie" was probably Andrew Wotherspoon McKenzie, the son of William McKenzie, Steamboat Stoker, and Maggie McKenzie MS Logan, who married in Stevenston in 1891.
Orraverybest
David
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PS
1. The family story of signing up in 1914 appears to be in question. Had he done so the army unit should be shown on the 1915 marriage record!, but there's always exceptions ::)
2. On Alexander's 1896 birth register entry his father is shown as "Labourer, Dynamite Factory" - i.e. Nobels at Ardeer. But the 1894 marriage register entry shows him as a "Journeyman Tailor". The reason for the change could be simple one of much better pay at Ardeer !
dww
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Hi David,
Thanks for the direction...
I agree, the 1914 sign up date, based on 1915 marriage, has always had a question mark next to it. Of course exceptions just make things more fun!
That information comes from a very short bio written by his employeer upon retirement in Canada, it is possible that the 1914 date was simply assumed.
The "1916 Hannah, and the 1918 Robert
Alexander" are indeed his children. Robert Alexander is my Grandfather. There was a Hugh, but he was born after my Grandfather R.A.
I have always been a bit perplexed on how there could be so many children born while he was supposedly abroad.
If he was serving in a Territorial Unit at home, would he then be able to be with his wife?
As for the middle name, that is the first time, other than my Grandfather that I see middle name listed, and it was only on his birth record.
Now, starting with my Uncle, all first born male Mckenzie's in our line have the middle name Alexander... though in the future there wil be less ambiguity I would hope.
True, if I could get a copy of my Granfather's, his older sister's birth record the inforamtion may be contained there.
Thanks you for the offer to lookup, if you have the time that would be a great help. I would be indebted to you
I was either going to order the "extracts" or wait 6 years when, starting with Hannah, they would appear online.
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And also thanks for the clarification on A.W. McKenzie..
Too bad that didn't pan out, but then again I am not sure how I would have felt about having an ancestor with the middle name "Wotherspoon"
;)
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Hi Scott
Time between marriage and enlisting plus the occasional leave could explain the 1916 birth of Hannah and the 1918 birth of Robert Alexander.
The record for Hugh is a "no brainer", there being the following record -
1924 MCKENZIE HUGH MCCULLOUGH KILWINNING 8)
So, all that's required now is a wee bit of patience ........
Orraverybest
David
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From the 1881 census, Robert had two younger siblings ......
Kyleshill, Stevenston
Daniel MC KENZIE 4 b. Saltcoats
Agnes MC KENZIE 1 b. Saltcoats
They don't show up in the Mormon records as these only extend to 1875.
Orraverybest
David
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I am please to update this thread with the news that David's generous offer to examine some birth records has elicited the exact inforamtion I have been after!
Once again a thousand thank-you to David, and I am please to report that I have now the medal card for one Alexander McKenzie listed as, Private, Machine Gun Corps, D Co[mpan]y 42 Battalion, No 105918 on his son (my Grandfather) birth record.
Scott
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Dear Scott,
Now you know your grandfather's company you might be interested in this link which takes you a little further:
http://www.1914-1918.net/mg_units.htm
Follow the link to the 14th Division and you get a bit more - not too much - but a start if you want to research further.
jds149
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Important to realise here that we're talking about the 42 Bn of the Machine Gun Corps, not the 42nd Company.
The MGC originally consisted of Companies, but these were later reorganised into MGC battalions.
Machine Gun Battalions were formed in the Divisions in the early months of 1918, by bringing together the four regimentally or brigade linked MGC Companies into a single command structure.
The Battalions took the number of their Division. Other MGC Battalions were formed outside the Divisions, or were detached to be placed under the command of higher formations.
42 Battalion Machine Gun Corps
Formed 23 February 1918 from the previous 4 separate companies. 1 Company was attached to each of the 3 infantry brigades and 1 company was in the Divisional Reserve.
125th MG Company was formed in Egypt, and joined 42nd Division, 4 March 1916. Moved into No 42 Bn, MGC 23 February 1918.
126th MG Company was formed in Egypt, and joined 42nd Division, 14 March 1916. Moved into No 42 Bn, MGC 23 February 1918.
127th MG Company was formed in Egypt, and joined 42nd Division, 14 March 1916. Moved into No 42 Bn, MGC 23 February 1918.
268th MG Company was formed in England in October 1917. Moved to France and joined 42nd Division, 20 January 1918. Moved into No 42 Bn, MGC 23 February 1918.
The date of birth of the child of Alexander McKENZIE showing him as Private Machine Gun Corps D Coy. 42 Battalion No.105918, was August Fifth 1918.
If the fours companies in 42 Bn MGC were lettered in number order that would make 268th Company Alexander's unit. The date figures as Alexander had not signed up by May 1916 when he was in a reserved occupation at Nobel Explosives at Ardeer.
As far as I can see the medal card doesn't give a date of signing up.
Like many other men in reserved occupations he later decided to volunteer.
wkr
dww