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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Tensixty6 on Wednesday 18 November 09 10:13 GMT (UK)
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Seeking information on Horace Warner Hastings, who l believe was born in Brighton in 1867. Horace moved to Australia some time between 1867 and the turn of the century and died in Melbourne, Victoria on the 6th July 1934 aged 67 years.
Horace is my great grandfather on my fathers side. He married Pheobe Smith (unconfirmed) and together, they had eleven childen. Six boys and five girls. I'm particularly keen to find out the names of Horace's parents.
Cheers
Christopher Hastings ;D
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Hi Tensixty6
According to Registration Details, a Horace was born in 1868 as follows
Births Mar 1868 - HASTINGS Horace Hailsham 2b 72
You could use the above reference to get his birth certificate
Chris in 1066
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isn;t this the death reg of the Horace you found, Chris??
Death reg freeBMD
Horace Hastings
Dec qtr 1868
age 0
hailsham
2b 41
Suz
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Hi Suz
Maybe it is, I was only looking for a birth at that time
Since then I have checked for a marriage and then spotted that death - so got no further as yet.
Chris in 1066
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I looked for a Warner/Hastings marriage - thinking may be a possibility for parents - only found one
Harriett Minter Warner
Thomas William Hastings
Sept qtr 1869
Norwich 4b 157
so thought possibly Horace was illegit - but can't find a horace warner to "fit" either
a mystery
Suz
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Hi Suzi
I agree, it is a big mystery - no sign of him at all
Checked for a possible marriage between 1885 onwards to a possible Phoebe, but not a sniff anywhere
Got to get my thinking cap on on this one
Chris in1066
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The marriage to Phoebe SMITH was supposed to have taken place in Sydney, Australia. My father took steps some years ago to obtain a marriage certificate but had no luck at all in securing one. I suppose it's always possible that they never married.
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This is the only Hastings family I can see in 1871 - but no young Horace there. They could be the parents of the Horace who died.
I wonder if your Horace is actually younger?
RG10 1082 71 27
Alfred 26 Skin dealer and Hog butcher bn Hailsham
Martha 22 bn Funtingdon
William 3 bn Hails.
Rose 1 bn H
Amy E 2 mths bn H
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No, not looking so good
That family are at RG11 1041 77 38 in 1881, with plenty more children but not a Horace amongst them!
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I managed to get a copy of Horace's Death Certificate today. It indicates that he was born in Brighton in 1867. His fathers name was Richard and his mother Maria Postlewhaite. My apologies for supplying incorrect information at the start of this thread.
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Hello Christopher! My name is Scott Andrew Hastings b 1984, direct descendant of Horace Warner.
As it happens, I have a degree in history and have spent the last three months tracing my direct ancestors.
Like you, i had record that Horace's parents were Richard Hastings and Maria Postlewhaite
Horace lived in Ballarat East where he had several children before moving to Melbourne where he had my direct ancestor, Frank Launcelot Hastings. Your information is correct that he married Phoebe Smith.
Frank was a soldier in WWI with the 32nd Australian battalion, which saw action in 1917-1918 in the areas of Passchendale and Ypres, both in Belgium. He died in 1990 and was cremated, the marker is at Springvale. If possible I suggest you look up Springvale Botanical Cemetery as many Hastings and relatives are in there. Frank's son was also Frank, my grandfather.
I will keep you posted with anything more I can find about Horace, Richard, Maria Postlewhaite, or Phoebe Smith.
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age differs -but could this be Horace??
and maybe he added "Hastings" to his name when he went to Australia??????
1871
Park St
Brighton Sussex
Richard Warner head M 43 general lab Brighton Sussex
Maria wife 46 Somertown London
Horace son 8 scholar Brighton Sussex
Frank son 6 Brighton Sussex
RG10 1075 50 10
so if this is the correct Horace -he possibly named his son Frank after his brother?
Suz
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this looks like Richard and Maria
1851
124 Edward St Brighton Sussex
Edward Postlethwaite Head M 43 Hair Dresser (Master) Brighton Sussex
Amelia wife Upholsteress 43 Middlesex London
Charles son 12 Brighton Sussex
Richard son 5mth Brighton Sussex
RICHARD WARNER son in law Married 22 Painter Brighton Sussex
MARIA WARNER daughter married 21 Bonnet Maker Middlesex London
Richard Ernest Warner grandson 1mth Brighton Sussex
HO107 1644 160
Suz
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by 1861 Edward Postlethwaite had died
1861
142 Edward Rd Brighton Sussex
Amelia Postlethwaite Head widow 52 Upholstress Mx London
Charles son Married 22 Hair Dresser Brighton Sussex
Martha daughter in law married 27 Brighton
Amelia M grasnddaughter 3mths Brighton
RG9 591 24 41
There is a death reg FreeB\md
Richard Edward Postlethwaite Sept qtr 1853 Brighton 2b 89
could this be Edward's death reg? and he used his middle name on census??
Death reg freeBMD
Amelia Postlethwaite Sept qtr 1881 Brighton 2b 101
Suz
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here's Amelia with one of Richard Warner and Maria's children
1871
142 Edward Rd Brighton Sussex
Amelia Postlethwaite Head widow 62 Newsagent St Clements London
Maria Warner granddaughter 17 scholar Brighton
RG10 1072 15 24
1881
142 Edward Rd Brighton Sussex
Amelia Postlethwaite Mother widow no occ 73
Charles Postlethwaite Head widower Hair Dresser
Ellen Postlethwaite daughter 18 assistant
all b Brighton
RG11 1076 22 38
Suz
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Here's Richard Warner and Maria
1861
49 George St Brighton
Richard Warner head M 31 Photographer Brighton Sussex
Maria wife 31 Somers Town London
Maria C daughter 7 scholar Brighton
Emma daughter 1 Brighton
Hannah Lingham Lodger W 59 Invalid Nurse Wartling Sussex
RG9 592 128 12
Richard in 1841?
Sun? St Brighton Sussex
Richard Warner 50 no
Esther 40 no
William 16 shoe M app yes
RICHARD 14 yes
William Warner 51 Porter No
HO107 112 11 7 7
Looks like Richard died quite young
Death reg FreeBMD
Richard Warner
Mar qtr 1875
age 47
Brighton
2b 149
Suz
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1881 Horace was living with his married sister
Marriage
26 Jan 1879 Brighton Sussex
Kate maria Warner age 23
father Richard Warner
William Watson age 20
father Thomas Warner
1881
Wichelo Place Brighton Sussex
William Watson Head M 22 Coppersmith on Railway
Kate maria wife 24
Thomas son 1
HORACE WARNER brother in law 19 Meter Maker Gas Works
all b Brighton
RG11 1084 58 18
I cannot find Horace after this census ?
His brother Frank was a servant in 1881 census - he then went on to marry and called his first son Horace!!!
Maybe Horace knocked a few years off his age to join the army ???
I think the sister he lives with in 1881 had knocked a few years off her age -poss cos of younger husband???
Hope this helps
Suz
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I have found theses baptisms on familysearch
All to parents Richard and Maria Warner
6 Nov 1853 St Nicholas brighton
Maria Christiana Warner (possibly she is Kate Maria in 1881 ??)
Maude warner 7 dec 1856 St Nicholas Brighton
Emma Jane Warner 2 Oct 1859 St Nicholas Brighton
Richard Erneast Warner5 Oct 1851 Brighton
Horace warner
Frank Warner
5 Mar 1865 St John Brighton
also -possibly Maria Postlethwaite was really maria Batchelor??
FreeBMD shows Maria Batchelor on same page as Richard Warner
family search shows
Marriage
14 April 1849
St Nicholas Brighton Sussex
Richard Warner father Richard warner
Maria Batchelor no father's name given
so maybe Maria was illegit daughter of Amelia -who married Edward Postlethwaite?????
Wonder if Horace was in some kind of trouble - so he added another surname and altered his age ??? It has been done before??
Suz
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thanks, i'll look into it on the weekend
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Hi Scott. Thanks for the update. I'm reasonably confident that your great grandfather, Frank Launcelot Hastings is my great uncle. My father (living) has often referred to his "Uncle Frank". He was a bit of a "black sheep" apparently.
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Message deleted
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Message deleted
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searching on Wikitree reveals a cluster of Hastings at Hailsham, East Sussex. Continuing to investigate.
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I can only find Maria Postlethwaite marrying Richard Warner -no Hastings
Possibly Horace was Horace Warner and when he left the country he left from Hastings and so tagged that as his surname - will see if I can find a marriage in UK
Suz
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So my current investigation shows a list of three possibles. Here's the previous information against which they'll be measured
Horace Warner Hastings, b1867, Brighton. father Richard Hastings, mother Maria Postlethwaite
then i'll list the pros and cons of each candidate.
Horace Hastings
b1868 Hailsham, (East) Sussex
pros:
correct surname
correct county
being christened 1868 may make sense if born 1867
cons:
no record of parents, will have to be retrieved from GRO $
wrong town in Sussex
Horace Charles Postlethwaite
b1866 Brighton father Benjamin Postlethwaite mother Harriott or Harriett West
pros:
Postlethwaite connection
correct town
cons:
then where did Hastings come from?
then where did Warner come from?
wrong parent names
Horace Warner
b1865 Brighton father Richard Warner mother Maria [no surname listed]
pros:
correct town
correct parent names
cons:
birth two years early
then where did Hastings come from?
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as you can see it remains pretty confusing
On 8 July 1868 was born "Warner F.J. Plantagenet Hastings" in Dublin Ireland. 15th Earl of Huntingdon. coincidence?
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Horace Hastings, born Hailsham 1868, did not survive -
Horace HASTINGS
Date of death - OND 1868, age O, Hailsham 2b 41
Tony
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thanks Tony. oh man this is epically confusing :-\
Horace Warner's mother was Maria Batchelor, not Maria Postlethwaite...
have just revisited Horace's death cert issued in Victoria. His parents are clearly Richard and Maria Postlethwaite
How peculiar. someone purporting to be Christopher Hastings has uploaded an extensive family tree on a popular and very expensive paysite. this tree shows the ancestry of Horace stretching back up to six more generations.
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Horace Hastings, born Hailsham 1868, did not survive -
Horace HASTINGS
Date of death - OND 1868, age O, Hailsham 2b 41
Tony
quote author=WDHSR link=topic=420089.msg4635578#msg4635578 date=1347258689]
Previously posted -see reply#3
thanks Tony. oh man this is epically confusing :-\
Horace Warner's mother was Maria Batchelor, not Maria Postlethwaite...
have just revisited Horace's death cert issued in Victoria. His parents are clearly Richard and Maria Postlethwaite
It looks like Maria Batchelor was illegit and was brought up as a Postlethwaite (if you look at 1851 census I posted Maria Warner -and husband Richard Warner- are with Edward and Amelia Postlethwaite -Maria is described as daughter - maybe Edward Postlethwaite was her father but failed to marry Amelia before maria's birth?)
Suz
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How peculiar. someone purporting to be Christopher Hastings has uploaded an extensive family tree on a popular and very expensive paysite. this tree shows the ancestry of Horace stretching back up to six more generations.
There are several trees on A*****y which have Richard Warner & Maria Postlethwaite as parents of Horace - but the only source they give of Horace is his death reg - from that they then list his birth as Hailsham 1868 - but it seems that Horace died in infancy.
I think people have just copied trees and not done the research themselves
This happens very often. I had a lady contact me who said she was part of my family line - I cross questioned her and it was "Yes that's my great grandfather etc) I sent her a lot of my research -done over a 40 year period - I received a reply - thank you so much -I only started researching a week ago and I have all this information -my family will be so impressed - by the way my family are all from Scotland -so I have changed the p.o.b. on all members of your tree - and that makes them fit!!! I have not found any members of that line b. Scotland - so there is a bogus tree which keeps appearing on various sites and I keep correcting!!
It happens so often - so be aware
I've just had a thought - Horace married Phoebe Smith -yet a marriage cert has yet to be found -maybe it is worth searching for a marriage of Horace Warner to Phoebe Smith??
Also as Richard Warner -Horace's father died fairly young -wonder if Maria remarried to a hastings ? Maybe worth checking out??
Ignore this last suggestion -it seems maria died a couple of years after Richard
Death reg freeBMD
Maria Warner
age 52
Sept qtr 1877
Brighton
2b 128
Suz
Suz
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investigations are going well. i believe the root cause of the confusion is how FreeBMD only goes back to 1837. This means the parents of someone born 1867 (Horace) may not be on there.
strange. there's yet another tree from a Chris Hastings...only the dates and some of the names don't match.
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New information. There's a record of a H. Hastings arriving in Sydney aboard "Costa Rica Packet" originating in Liverpool. If this is Horace it suggests he may have been born on the western side of the english isle.
In that era, the USA was by far the largest source of whaling ships bound for the Southern Hemisphere. Perhaps there's an American connection as well. (Update: I have found a record of this ship leaving Eureka, California Goldfields port, two years prior)
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Seeking information on Horace Warner Hastings, who l believe was born in Brighton in 1867. Horace moved to Australia some time between 1867 and the turn of the century and died in Melbourne, Victoria on the 6th July 1934 aged 67 years.
Horace is my great grandfather on my fathers side. He married Pheobe Smith (unconfirmed) and together, they had eleven childen. Six boys and five girls. I'm particularly keen to find out the names of Horace's parents.
Cheers
Christopher Hastings ;D
I believe this man is my paternal grandfather, who I never met. I may be able to add a bit of flesh to these names and dates.
I always had much less contact with my father's side of the family than my mother's; however not long ago a cousin of mine told me some interesting snippets that she had learned from various members of the clan. Among these:
- He apparently told her father (my uncle Alf) on his deathbed that his original name was not Hastings, but Postlethwaite.
- The reason he changed his name, and probably the reason for emigrating to Australia, was a family scandal. It seems a family member drowned in a boating accident and he was blamed for the death.
- The reason for the name "Hastings" is unclear, but he probably simply chose it after the name of the town. (He chose well; I like it much better than "Postlethwaite".)
I think my cousin said Horace met Phoebe Smith (my paternal grandmother) on the waterfront at Adelaide. I never met her either, but from all accounts she was quite a character. I also think I heard at some stage that Horace and Phoebe were not actually legally married, or if they were it was only quite late in the piece. The family settled in Melbourne and moved house quite a lot around the working class suburbs of Melbourne, but seem to have spent most of the time in Collingwood, at that time the definitive working class suburb, though now very much gentrified. The eleven children came in two clusters with quite a few years between the two, hence many of my cousins are much older than myself. Two of the eleven must have died quite young, as I was only ever aware of nine in my father's family.
I remember hearing that Warner was under consideration when choosing my name, but for one reason or another I ended up as Robert instead.
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Having read through this confusing thread this seems to be the scenario for anyone else coming across it:
Maria Batchelor bc.1826 London (age varies a little in census'), dau. of Amelia Bachelor bc.1809 St. Clement, London (from 1871 census).
Edmund (not Edward) Postlethwaite married (1) Jane Trelfer 23/9/1828 Brighton, Sussex (by whom he had a son Edmund bc.1829 Brighton) and then as a widower to (2) Amelia Buckley Bachelor 5/11/1832 Littlehampton. Seems pretty clear that Edmund was not the father of Maria Bachelor only stepfather. In 1841 she is listed as last with the Postlethwaites and shown as 15 and Maria Bachelor.
Maria Batchelor married Richard Warner 1849 Brighton. Births Index shows their son Horace Warner was reg'd June 1862 Brighton (GRO index shows mothers name as Batchelor).
So, whilst Horace confessed that his surname was not really Hastings but Postlethwaite this was not true. His true surname was Warner, father Richard Warner, and his mother Maria Batchelor (whose mother Amelia had married Edmund Postlethwaite in 1832). Edmund (not Edward as previously referred to) Postlethwaite died December qtr.1854 Brighton aged 47 (per GRO Index).
Hope this makes things clear although he was some 5 years older than his death in Australia would indicate and he appears to have gone to Australia sometime between 1881 and 1891.
Annette
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Just a little more confusion
was Maria Bachelor m Postlethwaite m Warner 's mother also illegit?
Parish register image
Baptism at the Workhouse Lambeth
Amelia daughter of George Buckley & Jemima Batchelor
b 28 May 1808
baptism 7 Aug 1808
Suz
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Thanks a lot for that summary Annette. My cousin will be interested to know. So am I, obviously.
Warner is a name I could happily live with, either as a given name or as a surname.
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:-\ unfortunately the Horace Warner born 1862 at Brighton, Sussex, son of Maria and Richard Warner, became a well known photographer in London during early 1900's see a collection of his
Photos online via Spitalfields Nippers... therefore he may be ruled out of this quest for the
identity
of Horace Warner Hastings.
The plus is that the rootschat team may've unearthed prev
unknown info on H.W.
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So... unfortunately the mystery is not yet solved.
This
Horace Warner's mother was Maria Batchelor, not Maria Postlethwaite...
have just revisited Horace's death cert issued in Victoria. His parents are clearly Richard and Maria Postlethwaite
seems to indicate that my grandfather's original surname was definitely Postlethwaite. How certain is this though? By that I mean, who would have provided the information for the death certificate, and how did they get their information?
The existence of a "Richard Warner and Maria Warner (nee Postlethwaite)" and a different couple "Richard and Maria Postlethwaite" would seem to be too much of a coincidence, and would suggest that they are the same people and that my grandfather, for whatever reason, thought of himself as more of a Postlethwaite than a Warner, and said so at the end of his life. On the other hand, he certainly did not stay in London to become a well known photographer during the 1900's.
Curiouser and Curiouser.
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:-\ unfortunately the Horace Warner born 1862 at Brighton, Sussex, son of Maria and Richard Warner, became a well known photographer in London during early 1900's see a collection of his
Photos online via Spitalfields Nippers... therefore he may be ruled out of this quest for the
identity
of Horace Warner Hastings.
That is a different Horace Warner.
http://spitalfieldslife.com/2014/06/30/in-search-of-horace-warner/
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OK, looks like Horace Warner, son of Richard and Maria Warner, is the man we are after.
It's possible that before he started calling himself Hastings he referred to himself as Horace Postlethwaite rather than Horace Warner. There are a few possible reasons for this. Perhaps there was a rift between him and his father? We already know he left the UK under somewhat of a cloud.
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oops my sincere apologies for
getting the wrong Horace Warner
For more info on Richard Warner
His bio is on the website..
www.photohistory-sussex.co.uk
Scroll down to red list of
Photographers and click on
William Lane.
Then down Lane's page and on
Left side there is a lot of info
Re Richard n Maria and their family.
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That info about the Warner family under "William Lane" certainly sounds like it's the right family. No mention of the name Postlethwaite though.
My grandfather may well have been delirious when he said his name was Postlethwaite, but he got the name from somewhere, so the mystery deepens. I see the Horace Warner referred to here had two sisters. It would be good to know if death certificates exist for either of them, hopefully with the cause of death. My grandfather Horace allegedly was blamed for the drowning death of his sister.
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hi bob,
in the 1881 census horace warner is aged 19 and living with his older sister
mrs kate maria watson and her husband william watson and their
1 year old son thomas watson at brighton sussex.
kate's birth name was maria christiana warner born 1853.. she married as kate maria warner to
william watson at brighton sussex at brighton in the march quarter of 1879 volume2b page 278
refer to freebmd uk website.
her death is recorded on same website in the march quarter of 1883
kate maria watson at brighton sussex england.
mrs kate maria watson appears to be the same person as maria christiana warner
the older sister of horace warner.
it would be wholly unwise to assume that her brother horace your relative
was in any way responsible for her death.
horaces other sister died at approx 6 years of age born dec quarter 1859 died
december quarter of 1865 ..so at that time horace was only 3 years of age.
quite tragic for the family and for horace for that matter.
these details are available online freebmd uk website and
you can find horace warner born 1862 sussex england on
the1881 census of england and wales .
hopes this info makes sense to you.
best wishes from treedahlia
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just had a look for horace's younger brother frank warner.. he is listed in1881 census
as aged 16 born brighton sussex and is a barman and living with his employer
and the employer's large family.
by 1891 frank warner had married and had a 1 year old son who
was named horace warner.
familysearch website
1881 census
county london
parish clerkenwell
frank warner aged 25 born brighton sussex occupation barman
sarah warner aged 22 born in clerkenwell, london.
horace warner , son aged 1 year
so the younger brother frank named his son after his brother
horace who'd left for australia.
just wondering if they kept in touch
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had a look on A---try for shipping passenger records britain to australia
found a record for a frank warner born 1867 england to sydney nsw in 1890.
horaces brother frank warner was still in london with wife and child at time of
1891 uk census so it doesnt appear to be him.
just wondered if horace warner travelled under his brothers name
to sydney australia.
someone with A---try records might be able to get more details..
worth a look perhaps.