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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Lady Di on Tuesday 17 November 09 20:33 GMT (UK)
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Would anyone have access to the PR's for the Lying in Hospital Endell St please.
I'm trying to find if there's anything further written about any of these three children, particulatly parents details, on the originals.
IGI records:
Ann (SOMERVILL) B: 22.01.1792, Bp: 02.02.1792
John (SUMMERVILL) B: 01.04.1790, Bp: 15.04.1790
James William (SUMERVAILE) B: 19.11.1788, Bp: 27.11.1788
I believe they may be siblings despite the name variations.
Any extra info would be most welcome
Thanks
Di
Edit: Parents are James and Ann on the IGI
xx
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Hi Lady Di
The registers have been deposited at the National Archives, Kew and are available on microfilm ref RG8. I won't be back there for a while though.
They may be available to view online (for a fee) at
http://www.bmdregisters.co.uk/help/aboutRG8.htm
Having done look-ups for others, the usual information contained in them is scant, what you've seen on the IGI is generally it.
Dawn
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Thanks for that info Dawn.
What a pain - I was hoping that there may be at least an address or occupation :(
Oh well, the search continues.
Ta muchly
Di
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Hello Di
This area is a little difficult to get address information for, or even narrow down the parish.
Endell Street baptisms originally appeared in St Giles In The Fields & St Andrews Holborn before I think 1752, so that gives an idea of the area covered, St George Bloomsbury would likely also be included.
This is an entry, perhaps for the previous generation of the family at St Giles In The Fields
Baptism 24 Dec 1753 Child's name: Francis. Father's name: Adam
Mother's name: Sarah Father's surname: SOMMERVILL
Line transcript: Francis of Adam and Sarah Sommervill
Probably not much use, but the next source I suggest is the rate books for these parishes. The rate books contain the name of the head of the household & will give you the address of the family year by year if they paid one or more of the various rates (e.g. Watch rate, which paid for the Watch, a forerunner of the police). The rate books are parish records, so if they still exist they're likely in the "parish chest" at St Giles In The Fields, for other parishes they may be at either LMA or one if the local libraries (look under Camden Libraries & enquire). There is a lot of information if you know where to look, it's just finding these records that takes all the time.
Julie
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Thanks for all the extra information Julie,
I have read somewhere that the hospital records have further information about the birth incl parents details. Next step maybe ordering the LDS film of the Hospital records as the PR's from the hospital appear short in detail.
Thanks for the extra possible generation. As far as I have ascertained, James - the father - was born in Surrey in 1768. I can't find his birth or bp and his marriage is also missing.
He's being a most annoying and uncooperative fellow ::)
Thanks for all your help
Di
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Hi Di
I don't think the 'patient' records are on microfilm, I'll have a rummage around.
Dawn
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Hi Dawn,
On the IGI, I checked the baptism of one of the above mentioned children.
Selected "Source" and that took me to the films related to the Endell Street Hospital - but now they are using the name "British lying in Hospital"
I'm assuming that it's the same place ???
The Hospital records (FHL 916631 for 1766-1797) state that it
"Includes husband's name and occupation, patient's age, parish, delivery date, date of child's baptism, patient's discharge date, and recommendent's name."
There are various films covering different time frames.
If someone can confirm that Endell Street Lying in Hospital and British Lying in Hospital are the same place then maybe/hopefully there may be further information on this film
(said with a BIG prayer and crossed fingers)
Di
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Just bookmarking as interested in the subject.
Lizzie
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Hi Di
In reply to your last post, yes they are the same place, the hospital address was Endell Street. The British Lying-in bit is it's proper name
I've been going round in circles.
As far as I can work out, the LDS have patient records only for 1754-1766
The National Archives cataloge is pants, the deposited registers are in RG8 52-61 are patient records, 62-66 are baptisms
If you look further down the page some items are wrongly described as being one thing but really another.
I don't think the National Archives would let 'patient' records with all those details out into the public domain via the LDS (but I may and could be wrong). Most hospital records involving patients have restricted or closed access, although unlikely for the late 1700's. I know the hospital closed in 1913 so some records won't be available until 2013.
I'll be going to the LMA tomorrow for work, I'll see what they've got and a list of what should be at Kew.
The LMA has published this
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/nr/rdonlyres/e3c15f51-da76-43f9-b8c7-c0393e77da96/0/lh_lma_hosppatients.pdf
and this
http://217.154.230.218/NR/rdonlyres/015BC4FC-21AB-4054-952E-38877FC6E2B7/0/infono13.pdf
Dawn
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I can understand the "going in circles" feeling Dawn.
I've been trying to find further info and although the BRITISH Lying in Hospital was in existence from 1749, it didn't move to Endell Street until 100 years later.
LDS do say that the the Bp's of the kids in the late 1700's were at the Lying in Hospital Endell Street - and then show the source - British Lying in Hospital - records being available on film ??? - and available at the Public Records Office!!
I'd certainly appreciate any info or clarification that you can find.
If all else fails, I'll order the LDS film and see what's on it
Thanks Dawn - appreciate your help AGAIN ;)
Di
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The LDS are a law unto themselves.
On London & Middlesex we have problems with St Mary & St James and the Parish of Paddington, all lumped into one, St Pancras Old & St Pancras New all lumped into one :o
The hospital is one and the same though ;)
I should get some sense at the LMA for you.
The films are definitely at the National Archives in Kew if you fancy a day trip ;D
Dawn
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Somewhere I've got a CD, with details of patients in London lying in hospitals, but I did think it didn't give much info. I'll try to find it tomorrow.
I did know where everything was when I used one of the spare bedrooms as my office, but one of our sons and his eldest son came to stay (at a day's notice) over 3 months ago - until they found somewhere else to live ;D ;D and I had to parcel up all my paperwork, photos etc and move them into my husband's study. Some things are on shelves, but others were just pushed into boxes and put into a cupboard in the study. To get at the boxes means taking out loads of OH's stuff too.
Lizzie
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The films are definitely at the National Archives in Kew if you fancy a day trip ;D
Ohhh I'd love a day trip to TNA - just beam up there and I'd be in heaven ;D
Lizzie - it sounds like your spare room/study looks like mine ::)
Suggest that you wait and see how Dawn goes as that might save you a lot of work - and I'm into anything that saves work ;D
Di
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Found the 2 CDs, I remembered where I'd put them and it wasn't with the rest of the family stuff. ???
Anyway I only have CDs of the City of London Lying-In Hospital Baptism Index covering 1813-1841 and 1842-1868, which cover volumes 1-3 and 4-6 inclusively. The original records are at the London Metropolitan Archives, and the info on the CDs gives the date of birth, children and parents' names, parents address, which often just states Bethnal Green, Shoreditch etc. although the 2nd CD does sometimes show a road, such as City Road, Hackney Road etc. Also listed is the reference number which you would need to to view them, or I suppose get copies of them.
Lizzie
ps. There are parents' addresses which are not in London too.
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Thanks for checking your CD's Lizzie.
At least it's good to know that they are showing a few further details concerning parents addresses in the hospital records.
I'd love to confirm if these children belong to my lot but without an occupation or address or anything else, there's just no way of knowing.
I hope Dawn can find further info at LMA that will help us.
Di
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The LMA has one surviving book of patient records but that is much later than the time frame you are looking at.
I'm hoping to get a visit in to Kew shortly, will see what I can find out there.
Dawn
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Thanks for taking the time to follow this up Dawn. :-*
It appears that the LDS, as you said, may be a little confused although I still have my fingers crossed that somewhere somehow the hospital records may provide the answers.
I'll keep looking anyway. You never know what other information may be available.
Thanks again
Di
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i know this is an old thread,
but if you go on the non conformist registers site, you can search for the baptisms. i found my ancestor with 2 entries, a year ago. i thought they were the same image, like ancestry does sometimes. so i only downloaded 1 page. it was the basic register information.
then 2day i decided to get the other image, and it was the admission register. it gave the names of the wives, their husbands names and occupations, her due dates, when the baby was born and christened, plus its name. and when the mother was discharged. it also gave the name of the person who recommende her to the hospital.
and this is 1801. so i think you could luck if you didnt try that site!!
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Thanks for the tip kylejustin,
I'll follow up and see what extra information is there.
Much appreciated.
Di
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i know this is an old thread,
but if you go on the non conformist registers site, you can search for the baptisms. i found my ancestor with 2 entries, a year ago. i thought they were the same image, like ancestry does sometimes. so i only downloaded 1 page. it was the basic register information.
then 2day i decided to get the other image, and it was the admission register. it gave the names of the wives, their husbands names and occupations, her due dates, when the baby was born and christened, plus its name. and when the mother was discharged. it also gave the name of the person who recommende her to the hospital.
and this is 1801. so i think you could luck if you didnt try that site!!
Brilliant - thanks for this. Really useful. Ancestry has an index only record and we all know how accurate they can be, so it was great to be able to look at the actual entry, especially the admission register. My relative was bought in already in labour, which seems to be quite unusual.
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Digitised images of the registers RG8/52-61 Particulars of patients 1749-1868 and RG8/62-64 Births & baptisms 1749-1814, and RG8/65-66 Baptisms 1814-1830 have been on Ancestry for a while, as part of 'England and Wales, Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial Registers 1567-1970' The registers are much easier to browse than on BMDregisters/The Genealogist, and they are described as 'Holborn, British Lying-in Hospital' in the drop-down menu for RG 8.
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How annoying! I could only see the non image ones when I searched. Have just found them now though. Thanks for letting me know. :)