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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Oatway on Tuesday 17 November 09 19:26 GMT (UK)
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My GG grandmother Elizabeth Tarrant was born in about 1831 in Lime Street, City of London. She married James Oatway after 1851 and I got her maiden name from their son's birth certificate. I can find no record of her birth line. I think St Mary Axe was the nearest church, so records may have been lost. Any suggestions?
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Hi
There were no birth registrations prior to 1.7.1837 - only possible entries in parish registers for christenings etc
www.familysearch.org has 2 christening entries for an Elizabeth Tarrant around that time
Her marriage cert should give her fathers name
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Thanks Carole. Sadly the Familysearch references are not my relative and I cannot find their marriage record.
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St Mary's church in St Mary Axe was demolished in 1561 and its parish united with St Andrew Undershaft.
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Thanks Shaun. I haven't been able to find any record of her in the St Andrew Undershaft registers at the Guildhall either. Very frustrating.
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Hi
When/where was her first child born, what was their name
Rosie
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Hi Rosie,
Their first child was James Oatway born 18 Dec 1858 Rose & Crown Court, Bishopsgate, registered at St. Botolphs.
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Hi Oatway
There is a family tree on Ancestry for this line. They show a first born daughter Alice with this info:
Birth 1853 - 1853/2 Witechaple 1c 341
Death 1855 - 1855/4 Whitechaple 1c 215
Haven't double checked these GRO refs but they have included them on the tree so something to work from.
They are also showing a first marriage for James Oatway to an Eliza Muttingley who is showing as having died in 1851. So potential window for marriage is c. 1851-53 perhaps although people did marry after the birth of children so always worthwhile checking after this date.
This tree does not show a marriage date so looks like they have also been unable to find the entry.
Monica
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There is record of
Elizabeth Tarrant
Baptism
21 December 1831
Fathers Name Charles Tarrant
Mothers Name Elizabeth Tarrant
Parish Marylebone
Borough Westminster
County Middlesex.
Sylvia
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It may help if I post 1861 details of this family
James Oatway 44
Elizabeth 30
Eliza 16
Rebecca 18
John 1
James 3
Caroline Barker 24 no relationship shown
RG9 Piece 230 Folio 105 Page 11
I have checked all marriages on freebmd between 1851-1861 and the only one I could find with the name Elizabeth on the same page was 1852 in Shoreditch- Alice Elizabeth Steadman. They were in Shoreditch in 1861
I then checked the full GRO index but no match to a Tarrant
I also checked for a Tarrant/Steadman marriage in case Elizabeth was also previously married but no result
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Hi
Oddly enough, three of the children from the first marriage were baptised 23rd May 1856 in St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey:
Alfred born 11/11/1842
Rebecca born 25/3/1844
Eliza born 25/3/1846
all to James & Eliza OATWAY, of Rowlands Court; James was a basket-maker. No indication was given as to whether Eliza was alive or not.
But there is a death reg:
Dec Qtr 1851 London Vol 2 Page 146
Eliza OATWAY
Kind regards
Gaie
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Hi,
Does this burial at St James' Church, Bermondsey fit in anywhere?
James OATWAY - Jamaica Fields - 27 Sep 1854 - age 23 (ie born 1831)
This perhaps fits in somehow with the baptisms in Bermondsey (too young to be the father of Alfred etc) but obviously not with the 1861 Census entry posted by Carole. It obviously does not fit in with the birth in 1858.
Nigel
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Hi
(Harriett), Alfred, Rebecca and Eliza (and Caroline) are with James and first wife Eliza in 1851 (HO107 / 1531 / 85 / 30). In 1841 (HO107 / 722 / 21 / 7 / 8 ) James and Eliza are with Harriett aged 2yrs 2mths and no other children. You'd expect there to be a son James, wouldn't you, but none shows up in the censuses.
KR
Gaie
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1841 for Bethnal Green - different family
James Oatway 42 carpenter not born in county
Elizabeth 38 not born in county
Mary 18 not born in county
James 10 born in county
Emma 8 born in county
Richard 5 born in county
Thomas 6 Months born in county
HO107 Piece 692/8 Folio 24 Page 7
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Hi Carole,
That James is probably the one who died at Jamaica Fields in 1854 (buried at St James', Bermondsey). He is not with his parents in the 1851 Census and appears to be unmarried and a lodger in Shoreditch.
Nigel
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The 1851 Census has the following information (HO107; Piece: 1531; Folio: 85; Page: 30): -
St Mary At Hill, Middlesex
James Oatway 37 Basket maker Devonshire, Pilton
Eliza Oatway 39 Berkshire, ?
Harriett Oatway 13 Berkshire, Theale
Alfred Oatway 9
Rebecca Oatway 7
Eliza Oatway 5
Caroline Oatway 2
Bearing in mind the age of Harriett and that she was born in Berkshire James may have married Eliza in Berkshire before civil registration commenced.
James' wife Eliza may have died in 1851 (as per Gaie's post) since their daughter Eliza married Andrew Law at St James, Shoreditch on 31 July 1871 (marriage certificate confirms James Oatway, basket maker as her father).
Nigel
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It is the second marriage of James Oatway to Elizabeth Tarrant that is needed so it can be established who Elizabeth's father was
That marriage (if there was one) took place between 1852-1861 and cannot yet be found on freebmd
James marriage etc to his first wife Eliza is not the issue at the moment
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Hi Carole,
Is it the second marriage?
The following marriage at St Dunstan and All Saints, Stepney on 11 December 1853 appears to be relevant:
James OATWAY, age 40, widower, basket maker, 16 Globe Lane, father - John Oatway, weaver
Ann THORPE, age 41, spinster, 16 Globe Lane, father - Charles Thorpe, carpenter
Witnesses appear to be Samuel and Ann Hodge.
Ann appears to have been buried at St Dunstan and All Saints on 29 October 1854, aged 42.
Nigel
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In 1861 - James is shown as aged 44 so 8 years earlier he should have been around 35/36yrs old
It's quite likely he may have knocked a few years off his age in 1861 given that Elizabeth was only 30
It may well be that we are looking at Elizabeth being his third wife - but we still can't find a marriage to Elizabeth Tarrant
Looking at the London marriages - the 1852 marriage I referred to above between Oatway/Steadman appears to have been the James Steadman who died in 1854 aged 23
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Thanks everyone for your interest and help. James Oatway was born in 1814 in Shirwell, near Pilton, Devon. He married Eliza Mattingley in 1837 in Pangbourne, Berks. They had Harriet and then moved to London. He was a basketmaker. Eliza did die in 1851. James's father was a weaver living in Pilton called John.
I had no idea that he had married Ann Thorpe in Stepney (Thanks Nigel). Baby Alice of Whitechaple, as posted by Monica, might have been their child. So if Ann died in 1854 that means that James married Elizabeth Tarrant from 1855.
I really don't know about the Tarrants of Marylebone as the only references Elizabeth uses on the censuses are that she come from Lime Street, City of London.
I don't think that the Jamaica Fields James Oatway is connected.
Best wishes,
Oatway
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Gaie,
How did you manage to find James and Eliza in the 1841 census? I have been searching for ages. Where were they then, still in Berks?
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Hi
They're in City of London (Ancestry says Middlesex):
1 Little College Street, Parish of St Michael Royal College Hill.
Image and transcription say OTWAY.
KR
Gaie
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Thanks Gaie. The family are frequently referred to as Otway. Elizabeth's (Tarrant) death certificate in1884 has her down as Otway.
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Hi, I just registered for this Roots Chat and really don't know what I'm doing. I'm a bit mean and often short of time so haven't got a suscription to Ancestry. However I've just started on my Grandmnothers side of family - Mary Maud Oatway b 1881, daughter of Alfred b 1842 (who enlisted in the army 1861 and spent 16 years in Ireland, in fact his first 2 children were born there) Alfred was the son of James b1814 and also a basket maker like James who you are also looking at, could I ask your connection please.
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Hello,
My family line runs from Alfred's younger brother James who was born in 1857. The brothers had different mothers. Their father James seems to have had 5 children by his first marriage (Alfred included), 1 by his second and 4 by his last wife (James being one of them). The little information I have on Alfred is that he was born in Walbrook in 1842. In 1881 he was living at 41 Eagle Street, Holborn and married to Caroline from Bristol, a waistcoat maker. Their children Alfred (6) and Rose (4) were born in Dublin. His second wife (?) Catherine was born in Dublin and they had more children together. Alfred was a driver in the Royal Artillery in 1861. His uncle Alfred (James b.1814's younger brother who was born in 1818) was also in the army.
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My Grandmother - who died in 1951 when I was 3 was one of Alfreds daughters but born after he left the army and became a basket maker like his father James. I just about remember my Grandma Mary Maud Oatway but I remember her sister Rose very well, my Great Aunt, who was a lovely lady. Rose and Mary Maud married 2 brother Albert Hughes my Grandad and Edward Hughes. On the 1901 census Mary Maud is living with her sister Rose and brother in law Edward Hughes so I assumed she had no parents at that stage. She married my Grandad in 1903. I wish I'd started doing this before my Dad died because he probably would have had a lot of answers for me. Thanks for your information.
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You will find tracing the Devon branch back through Pilton/Shirwell/Yarnscombe very interesting. We visited the old mill in Shirwell where the family lived in 1782. Alfred's grandparents John and Mary Oatway are buried in the graveyard of Pilton Church along with other Oatways. Oatways can be traced back to Yarnscombe in 1655. There are branches in Canada and US. Happy searching.
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Thanks very much for the information.
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I just found this and am very interested in James Oatway/Tarrant. James Oatway (1814 - 1879) was my 3rd great grandfather and I have reached a brick wall with James Tarrant's son Albert James Oatway who went to the USA. I have found his marriage to Harriet Northcross and the birth of their daughter, Margery. Do you know if they had any more children, and what happened to Margery, please?
Also, do you know for sure that these Oatways are related to the ones in Yarnscombe? I have searched for John, the weaver's father James's birth in Shirwell, but can't find it there or in in any of the nearby parishes. I've found his marriage on 4 Feb 1760 to Elizabeth Nott at St Peter's, Shirwell and their children's baptisms - Anne 1761; Thomas 1764; William 1767; Elizabeth 1770; Honour 1772; John 1776 and Mary 1778 but not his own baptism. I would appreciate any help that you could give.
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Hello Lyn023,
Albert was my grandmother Grace's brother. Margery was his only child. She lives in Huntington Beach, California and has two children - Gregory and Cynthia. We've corresponded.
James, John the weaver's father, who married Elizabeth Nott, was born in Yarnscombe in 1727. His father (yes you've guessed it) John was born in Yarnscombe in 1697, and his father was Anthony Oatway born in Yarnscombe in 1655.
Have you discovered James Tarrant/Oatway's prison record? He was my GGgrandfather. Apparently Albert didn't speak about him very much, as he left the family when they were young children.
All the best with your searches.
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Hello 'Oatway'
Thank you so much for your message. I will make an effort to go the record office soonest to have another look for these records and photograph the 'fiche entries. I'm also going to check to see if the Devon Hearth Tax Returns have survived for Yarnscombe, although if the chest in the parish church is anything to go by any papers stored in there would have been badly affected by damp.
Is James the Ottway alias Oatway who was released from Wandsworth prison on 10 Nov 1890? If so, you have to feel a little sorry for him, it must have been almost impossible to be a basket maker if you're paralyzed on your left side. I wonder if he was disabled from birth?
Thank you for the information on Margery as well. It was a surprise to find that she was still alive. At the moment I'm trying to find out if any of the Australian descendants are still around, but it's not easy given what they do with census returns.
Best wishes
Lyn.
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Hi Lyn,
Yes, he was released from Wandsworth in Nov 1890 (his fourth conviction that year, with three more over 1892-93). I didn't know about his disability, so thanks for the info.
Good luck with the Aus connection.
Best wishes,
Oatway
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Hi 'Oatway'
I've found the answer to my own question. James was not paralyzed from birth. FindMyPast has, in their Crime, Prison & Punishment set an Habitual Criminals Register for 1890. This is where I found the information about his paralysis. Then, Ancestry has 'London, England, selected Poor Law and Settlement Records, 1698 - 1930. There you will find an Examination and Orders of Removal for James Oatway alias Tarrant to be moved from the workhouse in Bethnal Green and transferred to St Leonards, Shoreditch. In the Examination it states that James enlisted in the army, Worcestershires, in 1874 and was discharged 12 years later in 1886. It also mentions the paralysis, as well as the fact that our man has spent 2 years in Liverpool.
Back to FindMyPast where in their Military, armed forces & conflict set, there are the attestation and discharge records for James Oatway who served 12 years in the 29th and 36th Foot, Worcestershire Regiment. He was not medically discharged. He came out because he had served his agreed term of 12 years.
I have just spent the last 2 hours trawling the British Newspaper archive, but I can't find any news item about him that would explain the paralyzed left side. Nor any further law breaking!
Best wishes
Lyn
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Hi Lyn,
Interesting. The military service is all new to me. My grandmother, his daughter Grace, was born in July 1885. He married Sophia Hefford in August 1883 and Albert was born in April 1884. So he was still in service during all that time. In the 1881 census he is down as a basket maker but he must have still been in the Army. The disability is intriguing. I shall attempt to find out more.
James (I bet people called him Jim) had quite a criminal record which I accessed through Ancestry.
1889 - 21 days for stealing boots; 3 months for stealing reeds; 2 summary convictions for assault and begging; 3 months for stealing basket; then 8 hampers - larceny & receiving led to 12 months in Wandsworth.
1892 - 1 month for stealing baskets: order of removal from Bethnal Green workhouse to St Leonards
1893 - 3 months for stealing bundles of rods - Wormwood Scrubs; 9 months for stealing/receiving 31 rug straps - Pentonville (he certainly did the rounds of jails!)
1901 - he was living at 175 City Road, New Hoxton
1918 - he died in Shoreditch aged 61 (my grandmother, his daughter, died 6 years later)
I know quite bit about the Devon roots if you are stuck anywhere. I suggest you trace Elizabeth Nott (1737-1820) if you haven't already - a very interesting branch going back a long way.
All the best,
Oatway
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Hi Oatway
Thanks for the information about Jim's (he has to be either Jim or Jimmy doesn't he?) convictions. I haven't found those yet, but I've been a bit sidetracked. The Habitual Criminals Register shows his destination on release from Wandsworth as 'The Beehive' Brick Lane. This rang bells and in the end I had to look it up.
The Beehive was owned by John Cooney, who also owned the lodging house at Flower and Dean Street. These properties featured in the Jack the Ripper story. The Beehive could hold over 200 people which resulted in it being a single enumeration district in census returns. In Charles Booth's 1898 map of London it's classed as 'black' (vicious, semi-criminal).
A propos of absolutely nothing, John Cooney was the music hall singer Marie Lloyd's cousin.
So, if our Jim was consorting with criminals and prostitutes it's no wonder he was always in trouble. All joking aside though, he must have been a callous individual to have abandoned his wife and children the way he did. Maybe his sister's death in 1883 had an effect on him, because that's a story in itself.
Happy hunting
Lyn
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Hi Lyn,
What a cliffhanger!!What's the story of his sister's death? I'm starting to warm to Jim now (incidentally, Grace named her third son Jim). Which sister? It wasn't either of his full sisters, as Elizabeth died in 1871, and Rachel married Frederick Matthews in 1892 and did not pass away until 1928. So, was it Rebecca, Eliza or Harriet? Caroline died in 1851 and little Alice died in 1855.
Then there is the mysterious gathering in April 1881 at Eliza Richard's house. Ten family members are present but not Elizabeth Oatway/Tarrant or little Rachel. Our Jim was there but he must have been in the Army then (although he is down as a basket maker).
Well, well, well The Beehive - I've heard of that too. Elizabeth Oatway/Tarrant and Rachel were also residents of Spitalfields: 1881 at 31 Quaker St, then in 1884 Elizabeth died at 16 Wilkes St of heart failure and chronic lung disease. She was a charwoman. The house is still there. It was my dead end with Elizabeth that started this posting. I would love to find out more about her but the relevant records are lost from St Mary Axe / St Andrew Undershaft, Lime St. City of London.
With curiosity,
Oatway
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Hi Oatway
The 1881 census return which shows James living at 19 Victoria Road should, I think, be disregarded.
Eliza Richards is, in fact, Eliza Oatway Law. Why she has changed her name is anybody's guess. The reasons why I think this is Eliza Law -
1) her age is right and the place of birth.
2) Eliza's son Frederick Victor Oatway was born 5 Feb 1870, at 43 Sharsted St, Kennington
3) Eliza and Andrew Law's son Arthur Alfred was born 17 Feb 1872, at 66 Keetons Road Bermondsey
I don't know why she has listed her brothers and sisters as well because they appear with their own families, except for James, obviously, because he will be in barracks somewhere, Edith Richards and Rhoda Oatway. I haven't been able to identify these two at all. Andrew Law, the husband, is conspicuous by his absence.
Now the sad bit. Eliza Oatway Law died of pneumonia on 15 Jan 1883 at 26 Victoria Road, Hackney. The death certificate shows her occupation to be waistcoat/vest maker. Probate gives Andrew Law Eliza's estate of £60. Today that would be worth about £5000! How did a waistcoat maker manage to save so much money? Well, anyway, Andrew Law disappears and on 2 Apr 1883 Frederick and Arthur are enrolled at Peckham Park School. Their address is given as 24 Clayton Road, Peckham and their parent has been transcribed as Alf Sane Davies. I have looked at the image on Ancestry and I can't read it any other way.
Life can't have been all that wonderful for the boys because on 1 May 1885 Frederick enlisted in the Royal Navy. He was invalided out on 4 Feb 1887 having served on the St Vincent and the Duke of Wellington. Then on 21 Apr 1888 he rocks up at Aldershot to join the army using the name Frederick Grey. He served 12 years in 1st Battn The Princess of Wales's Own (Yorkshire Regt) and on his discharge he had made the rank of corporal. He married Rosina Goss on 18 May 1898 at St Marks, Peckham and his first daughter was born on 14 Jun 1898! in Leicestershire. These dates are right, I've got the certificates. Perhaps the Regt was billeted in the Midlands. He was discharged in 1902, having been awarded campaign clasps for:- Paardeburg; Johannesburg; Diamond Hill; Belfast and the Relief of Kimberley. Frederick died 29 Jan 1906 of a tubercular abscess of the throat, four months before his youngest daughter was born on 19 May 1906.
Frederick's brother Arthur Alfred who, incidentally, called himself Oatway, became a solicitor's clerk and moved to Beckenham. Sadly Arthur died 11 Apr 1909 of bronchiectasis in the Royal Chest Hospital, Shoreditch. This family didn't seem to have been blessed with good health, although three of Frederick's five daughters lived to their 90s, including my own grandmother.
My thoughts were that if Jim saw the way Eliza's husband behaved after her death and her boys did OK even though they had been abandoned, then why would his own family be any different. It would probably help if we could find out where he might have been while he was in the army. Did he suffer from PTSD, perhaps? Something like that could explain the criminality - there seems to have been an element of rage or despair about his crimes. And his mother died in 1884. And his paralysis. Am I just making excuses for him? Maybe, but I do feel a bit sorry for him.
I'm going to start looking at Elizabeth Nott as you suggested. I want to make my next visit to the record office really worthwhile.
Happy holidays
Lyn
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Hi Lyn,
Interesting theories. I must admit that I only traced my direct bloodline, so missed out on all the fascinating history about Eliza's line. My interest in Jim has been rekindled though, so I will endeavour to find out more about him.
Elizabeth Nott was the daughter of William Nott (b. 1705, East Down) and Ann Richards (b. 1711, Shirwell). They married in Shirwell on 23 Nov 1729. One of their other daughters, Honour, married James Oatway's brother John in 1757. So two brothers married two sisters. Follow William Nott's East Down line and if I'm correct in my discoveries, you'll find links way back through the Chichesters, Beaumonts, Pynes and other ancient families, with medieval knights, Norman lords and Viking kings!
Check out http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Shirwell/LandTax/1780.html to see where the Oatways (Ostways) and Notts were living and working.
All the best,
Oatway