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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: DELLA on Tuesday 17 November 09 14:30 GMT (UK)
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I have been in touch with two of the siblings of John Angels irwin, of St. Georges London. He was born in 1848. His parents where Angelo John Irwin, born 1818. and Mary Ann Morris. Can anyone tell me if there is anyone researching any more of the siblings, of this family. I am in contact with someone connected to Benjamin and someone connected to Sarah, their sister.
Also I wonder if anyone can find any documents for Benjamin born 1852, married to Sarah Ann Edwards, they were married in Auckland. Maybe census, or marriage cert, thank you
Thank you for your time.
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You can see what NZSG members are researching the name here
http://www.genealogy.org.nz/FF_Search_31.aspx
Do you have the names of the other siblings to make it easier to see if anyone has them noted for research?
Benjamin's marriage was 1884, you would need to buy the cert from BMD
In 1893 Electoral roll
there is a Sarah ann
in Electorate:Eden
Residential Address:Kingsland
Occupation:Domestic duties
There are 2 Benjamins in Auckland
One at Eden electorate
Residential Address First Ave
Occupation Seaman
the other
Electorate:Parnell
Residential Address Mt Roskill Rd
Occupation:Carter
You can find the children at BMD
http://bdmhistoricalrecords.identityservices.govt.nz/Search/Search.aspx?Path=%2FqueryEntry.m%3Ftype%3Dbirths
Bye
Althea
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Sorry I didn't think to say,before.
Benjamin married Sarah Ann Edwards, in 1884, they had Gertrude Isabel b1886
Florence Ellen b1886
Alice Murial b1892
Ada Irwin b1906
I hope that I have that right. I have the info, but am not sure if it were from my connection, or not. All I have is his birth ceert, where he was born in Ratcliff, East London.
He was born in 1852
I appreciate your help, thank you very much
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Hello Della
Was it perhaps the children (daughters) of Benjamin and Sarah Ann that you were wanting information for ?
I can find marriages for two of them. Gertrude Isabel Irwin appears to have remained a spinster.
> Florence Ellen IRWIN - m. - John James CHAPMAN - 1907
> Florence Ellen CHAPMAN (b. 1886) died 1938 aged 51 and is buried with her husband at Waikumete Cemetery in Auckland.
> Alice Muriel IRWIN (b. 1892) married (at about age 39) to Auber Bruno KEYES. She died in 1966. Both are buried at Totara Park Memorial Cemetery, Thames NZ.
> Gertrude Isabel (Isobel) IRWIN (b. 1888) died 1976 and is also buried at Totara Park Cemetery. (It seems that Sarah Ann IRWIN died 1931 is buried there too.)
Lu
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Benjamin married Sarah Ann Edwards, in 1884, they had Gertrude Isabel b1886
Florence Ellen b1886
Alice Murial b1892
Ada Irwin b1906
I hope that I have that right.
Hi again Della
Sorry, not able to find the daughter "Ada IRWIN - born 1906" ?
The following are children who have parents named "Sarah Ann and Benjamin" :
Sarah Ann Louisa * IRWIN - b. 1884
Florence Ellen IRWIN - 1886
Gertrude Isabel IRWIN - 1888
Alice Muriel IRWIN - 1892
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* There is a possible marriage of a "Sarah IRWIN to a Percival BATCHELER in 1910" ???
(And a "Sarah BATCHELER death 1963 - born circa 1888"
which doesn't quite fit the year of birth for Sarah Ann Louisa IRWIN ?)
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thank you both very much, indeed, for all your help, it is very much appreciated
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Hi all,
Hope this thread is still being read.
Percival Batcheler and Sarah Jane Batcheler (nee Irwin) were my great grandparents.
I was wondering if anyone had any information on them?
I have no information on Percivals parents other than he was born in England approx 1887. I believe he left England with his brother George. Again I believe George remained in Australia and Percival went to New Zealand. Married Sarah Irwin in 1910 and they had 5 children. If my research is right, Sarah is the daughter of Robert and Mary Jane Irwin. Sarah was born 1888 and died 1963.
If anyone could help fill in the blanks for both Percival and Sarah, that would be fantastic.
Thanks
John
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Hello John
If your Percival BATCHELER is the man who died aged 50 in 1936 (born circa 1887), then he is buried with his parents (and wife Sarah - d. 1963), at the Saint John's Cemetery in Invercargill.
You can find details, and photos of the plot, at the following link.
http://www.icc.govt.nz/
>> Click on "Cemetery Search" on r/h side bar
~ Lu
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Percival Batcheler and Sarah Jane Batcheler (nee Irwin) were my great grandparents.
I have no information on Percivals parents other than he was born in England approx 1887. I believe he left England with his brother George. Again I believe George remained in Australia and Percival went to New Zealand.
Hi
As per the Invercargill cemetery information, Percival's parents were Hannah and George William BATCHELER.
This appears to be the parent's marriage in New Zealand.
1879
Hannah PADDON -- George William BATCHELER
[Note: The 1879 marriage record, has limited information -- i.e. it does not record birthplaces, nor the names of parents of bride and groom. ]
Hannah and George William had a number of children, but their births have been registered under different spellings of the surname. See next post >>
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NZ Births
BATCHELER
1880 - Louisa Fanny
1882 - George Cottell
1894 - Alice
1899 - Samuel Paddon
Parents: Hannah and George William BATCHELER
BATCHELOR
1884 - Charlotte Jane
1886 - Percy (parents: Hannah and George) *
1888 - Eleanor
1892 - Annie Clarice
1897 - Grace Irene
Parents: Hannah and George William BATCHELOR
[* Percy - rather than "Percival" -- father's name indexed just as "George". ]
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Hi John
There was another researcher of this family (the line of George Cottell BATCHELER), who placed a message at the following, back in 2003.
http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.oceania.newzealand/mb.ashx
>> Select "NZ board" >> enter "BATCHELER" in search box.
Some of the information given is slightly different, though the lister would not have had the benefit in 2003, of viewing the NZ BDM indexes, online, which for births after 1875, gives the names of parents. She does mention that several of the children moved to Australia - though not George BATCHELER (the brother).
A "William" (another brother) is also mentioned ?? (I couldn't see him on the birth index ?)
And "Charlotte Jane BATCHELER" (b. 1884) has been omitted ?
[She died aged 19 years on 17 December 1903, and is buried at the Riverton Cemetery (New) , Southland. ]
~ Lu
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Assuming the following is the brother of your Percival .....
George Cottell BATCHELER (s/o Hannah and George William), died 1967 aged 84 and is buried at Ruru Lawn Cemetery, Christchurch.
The cemetery database notes, state that he was born at Athol, Southland.
http://librarydata.christchurch.org.nz/Cemeteries/
Note: Search under "BATCHELOR" (it has been incorrectly indexed.)
:)
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Hi Lucy,
Thankyou for the info on Sarah Irwin and Percival Batcheler.
I was aware of George and Hannah Batcheler(or) and Percy born in 1886, but because of the family storey that Percival came from England I could not tie it together. But with the cemetary record that does prove that Percival was born in New Zealand and definitely fills a big blank in the family tree.
I appreciate your help greatly.
George, Percivals older brother, did indeed move to Australia. I have no information on him, but will slowly start to trace what happened with him.
I will check the other thread as well.
Thank you and a happy new year
John
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Hi John
Happy New Year. :)
Mmm ... I really did think that the George Cottell BATCHELER
(indexed as "Batchelor") buried at Christchurch, was the older brother of Percival. ?
He was aged 84 in 1967 - so born circa 1883 ... and appears to be the same George Cottell, born to Hannah and George William BATCHELER ?
Maybe he did spend time in Australia, but then returned to NZ ?
At the Eastern Cemetery in Invercargill, is the following burial.
BATCHELOR - Mary
Headstone M/I reads: "Mary (Molly) d/l wife of George C. BATCHELER - died 13 March 1932".
[Indexed as "Batchelor", though the headstone photo clearly shows "Batcheler" : NZ BDM (online) records the death 1932 of "BATCHELER - Mary Ann Elizabeth - aged 52 years.
NZ Marriage :
George Cottell BATCHELER - Mary Ann Elizabeth STRANG - 1910 : ]
~ Lu
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Hi again
Incidentally, George Cottell BATCHELER (Batchelor) has buried with him (same plot) at Ruru Cemetery, Christchurch,
"Isabelle BATCHELOR - widow - born Invercargill - died 1979 aged 85 years" - (born c. 1894).
[Isabelle's death appears on NZ index as "BATCHELER". ]
Seems he has re-married after the death of Mary (Molly). ?
Sorry, can't help with details of this 2nd marriage.
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Also found these in Australian records
NSW DEATHS
1979 - BATCHELER - Annie Clarice
Parents: Names are not shown on index
Died at Marrickville
1979 - TYMMS - Alice May
Parents: George William and Hannah
Registration district not shown
NSW MARRIAGE
1919
TYMMS - Frank
BATCHELER - Alice M.
Reg'd. Sydney
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Hi Lucy,
Yes I tend to agree about George Cottell Batcheler. I think another family story has been dispelled. I know he lived in Australia for some time because my father met him in Sydney in the late 50s. As an aside, Cottell is Hannah's maiden name.
Thankyou for the additional information, I really appreciate it.
I have been slowly going through BDM online and peicing together the family tree on that side.
I intend to use the local white pages to start to trace the later generations as best I can. Who knows what will arise.
Do you have any advice on where I go to try and trace William and Hannah's parents??
Again thank you for your help.
John
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As an aside, Cottell is Hannah's maiden name.
Hi John
Mmm ... COTTELL is the (maiden) name which has been given by the lister in that other forum. [I personally don't believe that is correct.]
The following is the marriage I found earlier ...
This appears to be the parent's marriage in New Zealand.
1879
Hannah PADDON -- George William BATCHELER
[Note: The 1879 marriage record, has limited information -- i.e. it does not record birthplaces, nor the names of parents of bride and groom. ]
[Hannah and George William also had a son named "Samuel Paddon BATCHELER born 1899". ]
;)
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Do you have any advice on where I go to try and trace William and Hannah's parents??
Hi John
Firstly, I think you should obtain copies of the NZ death records for both George William and Hannah BATCHELER.
This is because their 1879 marriage record doesn't include details of where they were born, or who their parents were.
[Be sure to order "printouts" of these death records - as this will give you the maximum information available, and is also the least expensive option.]
A note of caution though, death records are not always 100% reliable (because the information is supplied by a third party) ... but ideally they'll give you sufficient info from which to progress to the next stage of tracing parents, siblings, etc.
I did spot this birth at the FREE BMD (UK) website :
No guarantee that it is the correct George William - but year of birth is about right.
(UK) BIRTHS -- JUN -- 1854
BATCHELER - George William
Registered at : Stepney (London)
~ Lu
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Hi Lucy,
I believe it was a tradition to give 1 of the children the mothers maiden name. The other poster said Hannah's maiden name was Cottell and because George had a middle name of Cottell I assumed that it was correct. However as you point out and what I also found on the marriage registration on BDM online that it said Hannahs surname was Paddon. I also notice that Samuel's middle name is Paddon. So I agree with you that her maiden name was more than likely Paddon.
In terms of the printout that you mention, can I order this through BDM Online?
Thankyou for your help so far I really appreciate it.
John
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Hi John
Yes, you can order the printouts from NZ BDM, online. :)
http://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Home
Once you have received them, if you'd like to add the details here, then we can offer suggestions as where to go / what to do, next.
~ Lu
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Hi Lucy,
I will order a printout for both Hannah and George William and see what information it contains.
Thankyou so much for the help so far.
John
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Hi all,
I have recieved the death certificates for George William Batcheler and Hannah Batcheler (nee Paddon)
The following is the information contained in the printouts.
George William Batcheler, Died 1932, age 78, lived in New Zealand 59 years (entered New Zealand approx 1873). He was a blacksmith and came from London England. Fathers name unknown on death cert, mothers maiden name was Cottell. No 1st name given. His father was a stockyard labourer.
Hannah Batcheler (nee Paddon), Father Samuel Paddon, Farmer. No mention of a her mother.
If anyone can help that would be great.
Thanks
John
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William Gibson BATCHELER married Dec qtr 1851, Bethnal Green. One of the brides was a Louisa Emile COTTELL.
1871 census - RG10/554/26/46
Mile End Old Town
William BATCHELOR, head mar 46, Coal dealer, born East??
Louisa E BATCHELOR, wife mar 42, born West ??
George W BATCHELOR, son unm 17, Porter, born Marylebone
Richard BATCHELOR, son 15, born Guildford, Surrey (Imbecile)
Fanny C BATCHELOR, dau 13, born Ash, Surrey
Eliza BATCHELOR, dau 11, born Wokingham, Berks
John BATCHELOR, son 7, born Stepney
William BATCHELOR, son 2, born ditto
St Jude Bethnal Green
1851 Nov 9
William Gibson BATCHLER, full age, widower, Clerk, 49 Jubilee Place Mile End Road, father John William Batchler, Customs officer
Louisa Emily COTTELL, full age, spinster, Dress maker, 49 Jubilee Place Mile End Road, father John Cottell, Plumber
Married after Banns
Both signed in presence of Thomas Wright, Ellen Waters
Ian C
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In 1881 William and Louisa and two youngest children were still in Mile End Old Town. His birthplace is much clearer to read now as East Cowes, Isle of Wight. Louisa was born West Cowes, Isle of Wight
1851 - HO107/1552/475/59
49 Jubilee Place, Stepney
Charlotte COTTELL, head wid 46, Needlewoman, born Middlesex, City
Louisa COTTELL, dau unm 21, Dressmaker, born Isle of Wight
William COTTELL, son unm 14, Shop boy, born ditto
Fanny COTTELL, dau 12, born ditto
1851 - HO107/1552/869/13
Wellington Passage, Stepney
Elizabeth BATCHELER, head wid 54, Needlewoman, born Kent, ??
William BATCHELER, son wid 26, Traveller to a distiller, born Cowes, Isle of Wight
Frederic BATCHELER, son unm 17, Errand boy, born ditto
Eliza Ann BATCHELER, dau 15, born ditto
Ian C
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William Gibson BATCHELER
born 28 Oct 1824
baptised 6 Jan 1825, Whippingham, Hampshire
parents John William Gibson BATCHELOR and Elizabeth
Ian C
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Hi Ian,
Thankyou so much for the information its fantastic.
St Jude Bethnal Green
1851 Nov 9
William Gibson BATCHLER, full age, widower, Clerk, 49 Jubilee Place Mile End Road, father John William Batchler, Customs officer
Louisa Emily COTTELL, full age, spinster, Dress maker, 49 Jubilee Place Mile End Road, father John Cottell, Plumber
Married after Banns
Both signed in presence of Thomas Wright, Ellen Waters
Do you know what the Married after Banns means?
There are a few things. William Gibson Batcheler in the 1851 census is 26 and born in Cowes, Isle of Wight yet he is baptised in Whippingham, Hampshire. Is this probable? I see John William Batchelor was a Customs Officer. Not sure if that has a bearing on it though.
I am so greatful for all your help so far.
John
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Whippingham is on the Isle of Wight, which comes under the County of Hampshire
http://www.whippingham.org.uk/
Marriages usually took place after the reading of Banns, which were read out by the Vicar on the three Sundays prior to the marriage, basically telling the parishioners that the couple were going to get married, and was there any reason why they shouldn't.
If you did not want to wait you could get a licence.
Ian C
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Thanks Ian
I appreciate your time and effort in getting this information and for explaining things to me.
What would be the next step if I want to try and trace the family back further?
John
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Have a look here
http://www.thehunthouse.com/ghtout/gp176.htm
Ian C
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Here also
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~genealogyaddict/johnbatcheler.htm
Ian C
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Wow, thankyou so much Ian.
Would it be too much to ask if you would have any idea how I would contact Louis Lehmann who put it all together? There is no email address or anything.
I so appreciate your help.
John
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Well done Ian (all those great finds.) :)
Hi John ... it looks as if Louis Lehmann has been in contact with "Bruce" who has "thehunthouse" tree (see Ian's previous link). Perhaps contact Bruce, who may be able to put you in touch with Louis ?
~ Lu
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Hi Lucy,
Thanks for the advice. I contacted Bruce at thehunthouse and he has put me in touch with Louis.
There are still many branches of the family tree still to piece together, but with the help of wonderful people like yourself and Ian and many others, it has been an amazing journey already.
Thankyou so much for your help so far.
Kind regards
John
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I am so excited to find this thread! KiwiJohn, we are related - my great-grandfather was George Cottell Batcheler!
He did indeed marry Mary Ann Strang (known in the family as Molly, as there were four generations of Mary Anns before her!). She died in 1932 and he remarried Isabelle (or Belle).
I don't know about time spent in Australia - my grandmother Myrtle Louise (married name Howarth) was born in Mataura in 1911 and never to my knowledge spent any time overseas.
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Incidentally, my mother June Mary WATSON (nee HOWARTH) knew Percival as "Uncle Perce", although she would have been too young to know him well. I believe he was close to his brother George and they went into business together. I came across them several years ago in the Stone and Wise directories but, as I was researching another matter at the time, i didn't get the details.
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Here's a picture of George Cottell Batcheler in his early 20s.
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Hello, I do hope you are still on this site. I'm a new user to roots web and found your posts in Nov 2009 regarding angels and angelo Irwin. These are my 2nd and 3rd times grandfathers. I have not looked for either of their siblings but so would like to follow the lines down. I will make notes of the info already in the messages but if you have any further info I would be so grateful. Many thanks in anticipation!
Kind regards
Carol
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My great grandmother was Sarah Ann Louise Irwin, daughter of Benjamin & Sarah Irwin.
Sarah Ann Louise Irwin was born in New Zealand in 1884 and married Thomas Ockold Wheeler.
I remember visiting her sister in Thames, who was Gertrude Irwin (never married as her sweetheart died in WWI) but I knew her as Auntie Tot. Gertrude Isobel Irwin died in 1976 when I was a teenager.
I was just looking up the St Georges East and Bethnal Green history of the Irwin family, and see that Angelo John Irwin's father John Irwin (my 4th gt grandfather) had a beer shop in Spencer St, St George's, in 1843 (or was the keeper of this place).
I would presume that this place no longer exists. It was called the Anchor & Hope beer shop, located in Spencer Street, but I can't find any record of such a place.
There seem to be a number of family connections who were in the workhouse (or one of them) in the area. Is there any documented history of local workhouses in St George's area?
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Hello, I do hope you are still on this site. I'm a new user to roots web and found your posts in Nov 2009 regarding angels and angelo Irwin. These are my 2nd and 3rd times grandfathers. I have not looked for either of their siblings but so would like to follow the lines down. I will make notes of the info already in the messages but if you have any further info I would be so grateful. Many thanks in anticipation!
Kind regards
Carol
Hi Carol,
Well we are related. I suppose you have fleshed out some of this information since you posted. I have some of the siblings information, and it has of course been helpful to connect the dots with some of the RootsChat information.
cheers
Lianne (NZ)
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My grandmother was Constance Mary Irwin of Walthamstow. My mother married an Irwin from Victoria (Australia) whose father was from London too.
I'll give further info if anyone's interested.