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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: skingers2 on Monday 16 November 09 16:36 GMT (UK)
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Back to my scarlet pimpernel again..... found out that he died on a ship called Cordelia which left the port of Shields on 21st September 1878 and was not heard of again. I got the ships details and they were headed for Carthagena and/or Escombrera so Spain. Do we know of any bad storms around that date?
Would there be an inquiry as to what happened? How can I find out if anyone was rescued?
Hope someone can help
Thanks
Ros
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I emailed the met office a while ago with a similar historic request re the loss of my 2x gt grandfather's ship. I got a lovely email back from a lady in their archive department giving me full details. I hope she won't mind me passing on her details.
Kate Strachan Assistant Archivist
Met Office National Meteorological Archive
Great Moor House Bittern Road Sowton Exeter EX2 7NL United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0)1392 360988 Fax: +44 (0)1392 885681
E-mail: kate.strachan (at) metoffice.gov.uk Website: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk
I've taken the @ out so the poor woman doesn't get inundated with spam!
Hope that helps,
regards,Ann
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Thanks Ann,
I will try an e mail tho' someone has sent me a message via another site saying they'd found a newspaper report that said the ship was on fire!! :o
Will post if I find anything further.
Thanks again
Ros
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The contact no longer works for the met office but I have now e mailed their archives :) metarc@metoffice.gov.uk so I am looking forward to a reply from them.
Thanks again
Ros
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First of all there were more than one Cordelia registered for trade in/out of River Tyne.
The 727 ton Cordelia owned 64/64ths by Robert Stoker of South Shields
( before he sold 21/64ths to Thomas Young, and then another 21/64ths to John Gilbertson, master mariner of South Shields, ) as Ros says, left the Tyne on 22 Sep 1878 with cargo of Coke and Coal for Cartagena. Was seen by pilot boats off Dover and then never seen or heard of again. Carried a 15 man crew.
Source of above info from " Dictionary of Tyne Sailing Ships" by Richard Keys.
Ros , if you are interested in a particular storm ?? it could have hit the ship anywhere from English Channel (off Dover) , across the Bay of Biscay, round the north west and south of Iberian Peninsular, through the Straits of Gibraltar
and towards Cathagena ( near Murcia)
I frequently dabble in this Dictionary of Tyne sailing ships, listing thousands of ships. Maybe this is exaggeration on my part, but it looked as though every ship suffered from stormsat one time , with many damaged or lost. My casual view of the Mariners is that they were heroic "cowboys"-- becoming rich men or dead men !
Michael -Landlubber first-class, (got my stripes on Blyth-North Blyth chain ferry)
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hi i have newspaper cutting for the barque cordelia beloninging to mr r. stoker south sheilds ,captain was wilson had cargo of coal and coke bound for corthagena it was observed off dover it was then seen in bay of biscay 6 weeks ago on fire the davits were hanging over the quarter as if the boats had recently been launched and a vessel was also seen leaving the master of the southern cross is of the opinion therefore that the crew were taken off the burning vessel the crew of the cordelia numbered 15 hands this is from the newcastle courant dated friday dec 6th 1878 it left the tyne 10 weeks ago. if you wish copy of the article please personal message me and i will send to you hope this is of help
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Thanks Michael,
I always enjoy reading your input. Perhaps you could look up the James Montgomery of Shields for me? This is another of my errant captains ships but I know nothing about it. I agree that they were either mad or deranged ( though having said this my dad was at sea for 25 years so madness must run in the family!
Thanks also to you Harry- I have sent you a pm.
Ros
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Your "Cordelia" gets a mention in thr "Times" of London, Wed 4th Dec 1878.
In the Lloyds "Overdue" notices.
"Belongs to South Shields, owned by Mr R Stoker of Liverpool, 14 hands, headed for Escombrera, 728t of coke, 170t of coal., from the Tyne towards end of Sept."
MD
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Couple of Salty Snips on your ship....
Newcastle Courant Fri 8 Dec 1865
"Captain Pie of the James Montgomery of Shields from the Tyne to Adra when recently on the ground off Scoby, had to pay £150 to be assisted into Yarmouth Harbour.
Newcastle Courant 12 Dec 1873
" Dreadful Tradegy on Board a Shield's Barque"
Letter received by "James Montgomery" owner, H E Adamson, from the captain, Cpn Housagoe, from Leghorn, Italy.
Letter outlines drama of an Italian crewman going berserk and stabbing many other crew members.
Michael
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Thanks Michael,
I do love your little snippets. Have now discovered my man was also on a ship called Hero in 1877/78 but not the one owned by the Wilsons of Hull.Have you got anything on that?
Another contact I have found is a website that deals with wrecks...
www.wrecksite.eu
they have lots of information to share!
Ros
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Ros,
In the "Dictionary of Tyne Sailing Ships" there are 5 ships called Hero, one called " Heroine" and one called " Hero of the Nile"
Five Heros were in tonnage 189, 231, 28, 192 and 598
Heoine was 375 and H of the N was 207...... but I could not identify " yours"
Another snippet on "The James Montgomery"...
not dated but before Oct 1879....
" On passage to Barcelona bosun was washed overboard.. 32 yr old Christopher Dixon of 176 Stephenson St, North Shields. "
" 23 Oct 1879 - no details- register was closed " converted to hulk" "
James Montgomery was built in Sunderland in 1854- by George Worthy.
Michael
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Thanks for those Michael, my dad is so pleased when I pass on these snippets.... perhaps I can send more info on the Hero when I find out something from Tyne and Wear archives as they have copies of the crew list!
I think that the age of sail was so romantic but in reality I'm sure it was a very hard life for those at sea and those left behind.
Ros
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It is really sad to look at any burial register of a parish that had a coast line. Nearly every page has an unknown body to bury found drown and washed up on shore, many noted possibly from some ship or another.
Janis
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My 2G Grandfather, Robert Wilson, was Master of the Cordelia. According to family records, they were bound for Valparaiso, Chile, which doesn't agree with other messages here which are probably more accurate. They were 'spoken'by a passing ship while rounding Cape Horn, but were never heard of again. There is a gravestone in Preston Cemetery apparently. This was a double tragedy for the Wilson family. William Wilson was killed in the Hartley mine disaster in 1862, aged 12. I realise this is probably old hat by now, but have not been on this site for a long time. If anyone is looking for this Wilson family, would be pleased to help if I can.
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Thanks Jilfran
Have sent you a pm.
This is my family too! ;D
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Hi I read your posts as I am searching for my family also mariners and wondered if anybody could help.
I am searching for my GGGrandfather John Farrell born liverpool 1839 and was a mariner
in 1871 he is living in Sunderland and is married to Elizabeth from Sligo in Ireland
their children are Peter born Durham city also a mariner but if his date of birth is correct on the census and he is 16 it would have put his parents as being 14 and 15 when he was born.
The younger son John born in Sunderland as are his 2 sisters. John Junior married in 1889 and his marriage certificate records his father John as deceased and a Master Mariner. So he must have died sometime between the 1871 census and 1889 when his son married.
They lived at Bishopwearmoth in 1871.
My father remembers a story passed down that he had worked on a coal ship and was a master sailing from whitley bay to Ireland and he married the inn keepers daughter. He though that her surname was Marshall. He actually married elizabeth from Sligo, but I dont know her surname.
There may be some truth in the coal ship. I have searched all sorts of sites and cannot find either John Farrell Master mariner or Peter Farrell. If anybody could help I would be really grateful
Bernadette
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Hi Bernadette,
I don't wish to discourage you but I searched for my master mariner for a long time. It took ages to find his master certificate but if you can access the records office(National Archives) at Kew they are really helpful. There are lists of masters Lloyds Captains register and you may be lucky enough to find your captain in there .....I think you might be able to access some details on line . You could also check on the Mariners site I'll check on their web address and let you know as it's on my old computer at home.
But dont get disheartened as you'll probably find him in the end. Many of the ships logs and records are in the Maritime Museum in Newfoundland. They are helpful but research costs.
Hope that's herlpful
Ros
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From the Register of Deaths at Sea :
Ship - Cordelia, Official No. - 26981, Missing since 21-9-1878, Robt Wilson, Sex Male, Age - 54, Rank - Master, Born - Seaton Sluice, Last Abode - 8 Russel St., N. Shields, Cause of death - supposed drowned.
Another 14 crew listed, four from Finland, three Germans, two Swedes, youngest a boy aged 13.
Can't see a suitable John Farrell in the Register, so probably didn't die at sea.
Alan.
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Hi Wolfie
thank you for replying. Do you mean that he wasnt on the Cordelia or you cannot find him in the register for any deaths at sea?
I did find a John Farrell on the Pliny which was owned by Lambert and Holt of Liverpool and it sank of New Jersey who drowned. I dont know if that would be him. Because he was from Liverpool originally before he settled and had his family in Sunderland I thought there could be a possibility but the record said for the *Pliny* he was from Ireland. Is there any way that I could find out whether the Pliny sailed from Tyneside? Also do you know if there is a register for coal colliers and their crew from the mid 1800s onwards?
There may be no connection to coal but My Dad 83 has always said the story went down the family about him going between ireland and whitley bay on a coal ship. I have studied Whitley bay too to see if in the 1850 to 1870 they were shipping coal but cannot find anything to support it. I know its a needle in a haystack but thats the wonder of the internet there is always someone who is more experienced.
I have paid for 3 hours research in August but they are short staffed at Tyneside Library Research Services so there will be a delay. and I live in Wales so going over at the moment isnt an option.
I welcome any hints or tips thank you.
Bernadette
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Hi Ros
thank you, I did find a John Farrell in on the net and it mentioned Newfoundland but I just ruled him out as I thought it would be somebody who lived there, I didnt realise that there is a data base for non canadian sailors. I will look into it.
Thank you
Bernadette
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Bernadette,
Sailing from Whitley Bay (from your oral history)
Originally just Whitley, the " Bay" was added in more recent times.
WB has a beach of sand and no deep water for a ship. Maybe things were different in 1800s.
About two miles north of WB was/is the harbour of Seaton Sluice, that did export coal ( and glass).
About two miles south of WB is the mouth of the River Tyne, which was a regular exit for coal carrying ships.
Michael
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Thanks Michael
they settled on Sans Street in Sunderland on the 1871 census which wasnt too far from the Sea front looking at the map. Would you know was this a popular area for Mariners to live?
Kind Regards
Bernadette
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Bernadette,
Not an expert on Sunderland shipping, but I think it was, as well as other streets, e,g. High St East, Low Street.
But for shipping, the river front was more relevant than the sea front.
Have a browse through the 1871 census, looking at the occupations !
Michael
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Hello Bernadette,
I couldn't see a death for a John Farrell on the Register of Deaths at Sea that matched your description.
The record for John Farrell on the Pliny, just in case he's your John :
Ship - Pliny, Official No. 78776, Date of Arrival (in UK port) - 24/12/1878, Date of death - 8/10/1878, Age - 30, Rank - AB Seaman, Place of Birth - Ireland, Last abode - Blank, Cause of death - drowning.
Only one other drowning (same date) on the Pliny, presumably in a storm, and it did arrive in a UK port.
Another death of a John Farrell whose age matches better, but the rest doesn't match :
Ship - Lualaba, Official No. 78613, Date of Arrival (in UK port) 29/12/1880, Date of death - 23/10/1880, Age - 40, Rank - AB Seaman, Place of Birth - Toronto, Last abode - Blank, Cause of death - Bronchitis.
Alan.
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Hi Alan
Thank you for the information, I agree they dont look like a match. Ancestry.co.uk keeps throwing up a possible hint and it shows in 1881 a John Farrell in the Borough hospital in Birkenhead and he is born in the same year as my GGGrandfather the mariner but it shows his occupation as a ships rigger. It is possible he returned to Merseyside from Sunderland at some.
I am wondering if he was a mariner could he be a ships rigger? If so why would it show him as a master mariner on his sons marriage certificate?
I am not that good on marine history yet:(
Kind Regards
Bernadette
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Back to my scarlet pimpernel again..... found out that he died on a ship called Cordelia which left the port of Shields on 21st September 1878 and was not heard of again. I got the ships details and they were headed for Carthagena and/or Escombrera so Spain. Do we know of any bad storms around that date?
Would there be an inquiry as to what happened? How can I find out if anyone was rescued?
Hope someone can help
Thanks
Ros
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Back to my scarlet pimpernel again..... found out that he died on a ship called Cordelia which left the port of Shields on 21st September 1878 and was not heard of again. I got the ships details and they were headed for Carthagena and/or Escombrera so Spain. Do we know of any bad storms around that date?
Would there be an inquiry as to what happened? How can I find out if anyone was rescued?
Hope someone can help
Thanks
Ros
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Goodevening to all, I have just been trying to find out about a ship called the Cordelia, from South Sheilds, and the commander was a man called John Fraser, I believe the ship sank on its maiden voyage,
I have spent a few years on the Orkney isles and in exchange for a little job i did for a local man i was given a painting of a ship being the Cordelia, with the artist name and date on it and the Commanders name, the old gent that gave me the painting was a relative of the captain , the story goes old alberts wifes nephews that was the artist being John W B Halcro, and it was his father, and alberts wifes brother that was the captain, I repaired a old sea chest for Albert and the painting was in the bottom of it in a old frame ,
I took the painting to be reframed and glazed to a local studio when they took the painting out of its frame there was 2 origional prints painted by JW Goggared, behind the backing boards , Belived to have been there for the duration of the Painting ,
I hope this might help some one out , the painting is know in the Durham area, and up for sale ,
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I'd be interested to know more...my 3xgreat grandfather was lost at sea on the Cordelia which sank in the Bay of Biscay in 1878. He was actually the captain then and called Robert Wilson. He sailed from Shields and was going to Escombrera. Do you have a picture or can you tell me where I could see it?
Ros
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Hi Ros,
Yes you can see the painting thats no problem, i live in the Bishop Auckland area in Durham , where abouts are you ? i have made enquries at the south shields museum, then they have refered me to a place in Newcastle that has all the imformation about the ship, I dont know if anybody has looked into the ship owner, Robert Stoker? and the name Cordelia, A few yrs ago i did a house refurbishment in Whiby belived to belong to Bram stoker the author of Dracular, he came from Ireland origianly, the dates and some of his novels could have a connection to the Cordelia? having seen some of his old documents I belive this could be a interesting path to look into,
Dave ,
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only one small problem I live in the South East of England! Although I was born in Jarrow and my family hail from the North our paths have led us further south. Is it possible that you could attach a photo and send me a pm letting me know the price as my dad in his 80's (direct descendant of captain wilson) would be really interested.
Ros
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Goodmorning ros, Yes i will do that over the weekend , not sure what you mean about " pm " and how you do it ?, I am interested about what you say about your father being a direct decendant as the artist was the captains son ?, his name was John w b Harlcro,
Regards dave
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To send a personal message (pm) you go to top of page where your log in name is and click on messages. There is a link saying new message. Click on it to send a message and a posting screen comes up. then put the person you are sending to e.g. skingers2 in the To box and type message.I have sent one to you so you should have a message to open.
Ros
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I was researching a distant ancestor who died at sea in 1915, i always assumed he was a sailor died in the war, but after a bit of google searching i found all the info i was looking for on a Grimsby Trawler forum!
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http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Comus_class_corvette
sylvia
re cordelia
http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/comus_class.htm#HMS Cordelia
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Hi Sylvia,
Thanks for the info....my relative was on a sailing ship called Cordelia in 1878.
Ros
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Thanks Mark
Took me a long time to find my man but now I have copies of ships logs( from Maritime History Archives, Newfoundland) and Newcastle.
Ros
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"father being a direct decendant as the artist was the captains son ?, his name was John w b Harlcro,"
I am wondering if we are talking about the same ship... I got out the paperwork for Cordelia and she was registered in May 1867. My 3x ggrandad captained her in 1878, sailing for Escombrera and Carthagena and missing, presumed drowned on the voyage begun 19th September1878. The Owner Robert Stoker was registered in Liverpool, though there was a William Stoker of Shields on board aged 13...cabin boy.All perished according to documents and belongings went down with the ship!15 souls in all died and from many different shores.
I think there have been a number of Cordelias....Ours was a sailing ship of 726tons and not HMS Cordelia which was a battleship.
I'd still be interested to see a photo of your painting.
Ros
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Fao Dangeresdave and skinger2. Interested to find up if there was any follow up to the painting of ship Cordelia. Captain John Fraser was my GGF and Halcro is a family name too.
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Hi, not sure if it is in order to add to your post which I realise was a long time ago now. Tried to make contact earlier regarding this as the master of Cordelia was my GGF John Fraser and the artist would in deed have been a relative too. I am aware of another painting of the ship so this might have been by same artist. Thank you for attention, Rosemary
Goodevening to all, I have just been trying to find out about a ship called the Cordelia, from South Sheilds, and the commander was a man called John Fraser, I believe the ship sank on its maiden voyage,
I have spent a few years on the Orkney isles and in exchange for a little job i did for a local man i was given a painting of a ship being the Cordelia, with the artist name and date on it and the Commanders name, the old gent that gave me the painting was a relative of the captain , the story goes old alberts wifes nephews that was the artist being John W B Halcro, and it was his father, and alberts wifes brother that was the captain, I repaired a old sea chest for Albert and the painting was in the bottom of it in a old frame ,
I took the painting to be reframed and glazed to a local studio when they took the painting out of its frame there was 2 origional prints painted by JW Goggared, behind the backing boards , Belived to have been there for the duration of the Painting ,
I hope this might help some one out , the painting is know in the Durham area, and up for sale ,
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