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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: janet lesley on Monday 16 November 09 04:37 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I am the Australian end of Mordecai`s family. My connection is Rev Edward Andrews independant minister of the Beresford Chapel Romford .His parents were Mordecai Andrews 1749-1799 and Elizabeth Rutt m. 1780 . Edward m. Elizabeth Honor Symons,1811. Mordecais children were, Mordecai ,George (died young),John,Eliza (emigrated to America) Edward (my ancester) Charles ,Alfred (died baby) Harriet m. G.Wray stonemason, Charlotte m. T.Wood Solicitor in Walworth, Emily m. Rev William Temple,and Frederick (emigrated to America). Edward was the father of 12 children, Edward William (emigrated to Australia),Frederick George (emigrated to Australia)my ancester , Eliza m. Charles Orme distiller, Charlotte died unmarried, Louisa, Marianne, Adolphus ,Emily Augusta m Coventry Patmore (poet) Georgiana M. George Patmore, Augustus, Lionel (died baby)and Clarence (died baby. I would love to hear from anyone who can add to the list ,especially from Mordecai back
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Hi and welcome to RC.
You don't say where in England the family come from, but this marriage is (extracted = from records) on IGI:
Mordecai Andrews = Elizabeth Rutt 8/2/1780 st Andrew by the Wardrobe, london
there is also some other submitted info (needs checking) with Mordecais parents:
www.familysearch.org
Diddy
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Hi Janet and welcome to rootschat
Are you trying to link into a previous post? Click on the link below which will take you to one about this family and then click reply at the bottom to add to it.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,299644.0.html
Regards
Andrea
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Hi, I have just found in "The History of Coggeshall in Essex" a Thomas Andrews who owned a half share of tithes in Coggleshall in the 1600`s ,could this be the father of Mordecai 1st? There is a baptism of Mordecai 29.4.1731 in Kent with Thomas Andrews and Margaret as parents , I dont think this one fits. Any thuoghts? There is also mention of a John Andrews and a Richard Andrews , all in Coggeshall ,Essex .
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I found a website that says that the Elizabeth Rutt that Married Rev. Mordecai Andrews II was the granddaughter of John mason II, son of John Mason (A non-conformist minister and Poet).
"Revd Mordecai Andrews I (c1715-49) probably succeeded Thomas Shepherd as independent minister in Bocking (Braintree, Essex) on the latter's death in 1739. In 1743 he was brought in as a 'young man' to take over a moribund congregation in Petticoat St, London, and expanded the congregation so much that they took over bigger premises in Artillery Row.
Revd Mordecai Andrews II (1740-c1819) was christened at Bocking Independent Church (where Thomas Shepherd was minister from 1700 to 1739) on 22 August 1740, the son of Mordecai Andrews I. He became minister of the independent church in nearby Great Coggeshall, probably being the immediate successor of Henry Peyto. His wife was John Mason II's granddaughter, who was probably called Elizabeth Rutt."
http://www.parishes.oxford.anglican.org/water-stratford/stg_mason.html
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Thanks for that info , I am looking for Mordecai 1st parents, or his wife Sarah Fann`s family. Janet
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Sorry I dont have anything on his Parents. Who do you have as the mother of Mordecai Andrews II? Was she Sarah Maydman or Sarah Fann. It seems likely that it was Sarah Maydman to me but I have seen some conflicting info. Here is what I have.
Mordecai Andrews I
Born abt. 1716
Married 1st Sarah Maydman date ???
Mordecai Andrews II was born in 1738
Married 2nd SARAH FANN 23 MAR 1746 Saint Benet Pauls Wharf, London, London, England
Death Feb. 16, 1749-50
Sources:
http://books.google.com/books?id=mtZbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA120&dq=%22Mordecai+andrews%22&num=8&client=internal-uds&source=uds#v=onepage&q=%22Mordecai%20andrews%22&f=false
LDS - Computer printout of London, St. Benet Pauls Wharf, London, England
http://books.google.com/books?id=pFsUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA424&dq=%22Mordecai+Andrews%22&lr=&ei=1ZIOS_SvF57uMtfNwcAL#v=onepage&q=%22Mordecai%20Andrews%22&f=false
MORDECAI ANDREWS II
Birth: 22 DEC 1738
Christening: 22 AUG 1740 Independent, Bocking, Essex, England
Title Births and baptisms
Authors Independent Church (Bocking, Essex) (Main Author)
Note Location
Film
Births and baptisms FHL BRITISH Film
593806 Items 1-3
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hi, I am a bit worried about which Sarah is correct. On the family tree I have compiled by an unknown author,it is Sarah Fann with no date, on a tree done by Mordecai 2nd `s daughter`s family it is Sarah Maydman b.1718 .This would fit better with the birth of the children, and if it is Sarah Fann ,Mordecai died 4 years after they were married .Did they have children? I don`t see any evidence for 2 marriages. There other Mordecai Andrews so I need to be sure I have the right one.At this moment I am going with Sarah Maydman. So are the children Mordecai 2nd, Mary and Hannah???
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Hi, from the web site
surman.english.qmul.ac.uk
looking for Rev Samuel Douglas, it states that he married the widow of Mordecai Andrews who died in 1801 ................
Argentina x
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Hi, just to add to the confusion I have Mordecai 1st wife as being Sarah Maydman ,3 children Sarah 1744-1818, Mary 1745-1789, Mordecai 2nd 1738-1879. ( this info comes from Eliza Julia Andrews . Mordecai 2nd daughter ) .The 2nd wife is named as Sarah FAIR not Fann no children named .
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Hi, The details I have for Elizabeth Gamiel Rutt, Father- George Rutt (wealthy druggist from Blackfriar) Mother - Elizabeth Towill ,Brother - John Towill Rutt m . Rachel Pattisson ,one of her sisters married Rev George Kemble Whatley ,rector of Wokingham,Bucks. and the other married John May a wealthy wine merchant at Maldon in Essex. The family were told stories about Elizabeths "Grand Uncle Towill" and his large house and "Madam Towill of Taunton " The connection to Rev John Mason is unclear. Janet
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Hi Janet :)
Welcome to Rootschat! I found your post by chance when I was doing a search of the net.
I'm not a direct descendant of the Andrews but they're in my tree. I tried to look at all the Andrews siblings at ane stage, but had nothing like as many as you.
I'm interested in them because of Emily Augusta and Geogiana who married Coventry and George Morgan Patmore. I'm descended from the brother Eugene Gurney, (Gurney as an adult), who went to Australia, where his children were born and returned to England and died in Salford, Lancashire.
I have loads on Gurney and Coventry and their descendants as well as a little bit of early stuff.
Best wishes
Emms ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Again :)
The person I'm really looking for is George Morgan. There is very little on him. I have his marriage, and birth but no baptism. I think he must be one of the George Patmores in boarding school in 1841.
I know he went to sea in some capacity andfamily lore and literature always saidd he died in Mozambique, possibly, Johanna. Gentleman's magazine confirms he died in the British Cosulate, Isle of Johanna
Imthink 1856, I'll check the date.
I can find no official record and virtually no info otherwise.
I have the marriage certificate.
I'm going to start a new thread, but I posted here because he has a mention. If anyone has more info I would love to know.
Thank you for all the fascinating info on the Andrews family.
I will enjoy perusing that. Eliza Orme was the other one, with her family who seemed to have an involvement with the Patmores. One of the Ormes was a suffragette.
I will look through what I have too and see if I have any more snippets on the Andrews family. Emily Augusta was Coventry Patmore's Angel in the House of his poem.
By the way loads of these London church registers are being added to Ancestry if you have it or can get to a library which has. It may also be worth a look at 19C British Newspapers from The Gale, via library ticket number if you're lucky.
Gurney was an editor at the Derby Mercury and worked on a couple of London papers and in Australia was an editor on the Melbourne Argus. The Mercury printed loads on the family including in laws, even after he left in 1859.
Best wishes
Emms :) ;D :) ;D :)
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Hello Emms, glad to hear from you, I would love to have George Morgan`s certificates do you have copies?. I have him born 1825 and nothing else. Do you know anything about the sister Eliza Blancheborn 1827? She married a Paris correspondent for a London newspaper ,much older than her ,by the name of Smith (I think) I have no marriage date or any other info. Would you contact me with a private email to swap details? Thanks Janet
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Hi Janet
Great to hear back!
Yes, I have a very little extra! I'll look them up. The Sm,ith she married was a solicitor - cetainly much older, could have been a correspondent before? There were links with Paris. I was hoping the marriage would come on Ancestry London - but not yet! I'll look out the exact year - it's about 1851. - St James?
I have the George cetificate - witnesses were P G Patmore - his father? and I will check. Possibly Charles Orme. He's on one.
I'll pm you too and see if we can swop anything else. To tell the truth, apart from a date nd a certificate I know no more on George than when I was six! - A long time ago!
Best wishes
Emms :)
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Hi Janet. My 3xgreat grandfather was John Towill Rutt only brother of Elizabeth Rutt who married Mordecai Andrews. I have a lot of history on the Rutts, Towills, Horrocks etc. Re your posting of 9 Dec I query the middle name of Elizabeth as Gamiel - have never heard of that. Also Elizabeth's father's address was Friday Street and later moved to 239 Upper Thames Street (which runs into Blackfriars). George died following an accident in his premises at Upper Thames Street and the business was run under the name of his wife Elizabeth Towill until John Towill Rutt took command. The Rutts bought in the raw material usually bark that was kiln dried and then ground and sold on to apothecaries. George leased a windmill in Lambeth to grind the bark and JTR later bought an early Boulton and Watt steam engine and installed it in Upper Thames Street. This drove six drug mills and a mustard mill. Early mills of this type were fire hazards and not unexpectedly the whole lot was destroyed by fire in 1800. JTR then retired to Essex to lead a busy life of writing etc.
Regards, Brian
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Hi, My connection to Elizbeth Rutt is her son Edward, who was the Reverend of Beresford Chapel at Walworth, he was my 3G Grandfather. The( Gamiel) comes from the family tree of Elizabeths daughter Eliza Julia Andrews and her husband George Flower. They emigrated to America and pioneered the English County in Illinios. Do you have the names of Elizabeth`s other siblings? I have John Towill Rutt m Rachel Pattison, Anne Horricks Rutt m. John May , there is at least one more who married Rev John Kemble Whatley, Rector of Wokingham, Bucks. does this sound right to you? I have this info from family memiors written by Elizabeths grandson Edward William Andrews who emigrated to Australia. I would love to have any other info you may have, would you like to contact me privatlely to swap info ? Janet
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Hi Janet, Brian.
I'm still organising stuff to swap with you, Janet - from the Andrews/ Patmore side, but in the meantime, can you tell us the name of the memoirs? Is it a published book, or a private memoir?
Some of mine came from family stories and published Patmore memoirs or biography. I'm busy ratifying it from records and extending what we know.
Happy New Year!
Emms
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Hi :)
Brian, I've just noticed it's only your second post. Welcome to Rootschat! :)
You'll get loads of help here.
I have.
Best wishes
Emms ;D ;D ;D
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Hi again Janet
I've managed to view the original for Mordecal's marriage to Elizabeth Rutt.
He's described as a widower and Defecting Minister of Coggeshall.
Witnesses are Sarah Rutt, Ann Rutt and John Towill Rutt. It's by Licence so I don't know what that will say.
Best wishes
Emms :)
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Hi Emms, I have this certificate as well . Just today, so Mordecai 2nd had an earlier marrige, my tree (Eliza Julia Andrews m. George Flower) has her name as Hannah no dates or details I wonder if there were children?. This could explain the mix up with Hannah Litchfield. My " Mord" 3rd died at 40 unmarried so H. Litchfield doesn`t belong . The memorandum that was written by Edward William Andrews is a privately written paper to his family, he wanted to let them know where he came from and who his family were, He has given us quite a large amount of info and so far I have been able to back it up. I cuold send you a copy it is to large to email Cheers Janet
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I have just found a very interesting piece of info in the book written about Eliza Julia Andrews. She refers to herself as being Jewish, not in a religious sense but because of her Andrews blood line This may explain the family name Mordecai ,any thoughts anyone???
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Rev Samuel Douglas married Elizabeth, Mordecai's widow. His son-in-law was Charles Andrews.this is off memory I'm sure it was Charles. I have Samuels Will
Argentina x
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:)To Janet
Found your information very interesting as my gggg grandfather was Rev Mordecai Andrews. Have a little information (not much ) that you might like
Pat
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Hi Lesley, Pat, all
There's definitely some fascinating stuff there!
I've not forgotten about going through and sending you some bits, Janet. I'm not getting as much time on it just now as sometimes. I had to re read your posts to get upi to speed. I'm trying to see where El8za Julia fits in.
I found the comment about her being Jewish fascinating.
I've never been told anything about this, but I've for a long time, just had a gut reaction to wondr if the Patmores had Jewish links.
I think for one thing, the grandfather of Gurney, George Morgan & Co was a siversmith, and it would seem, a pawnbroker. They also had strong ties to France and also German blood. A likely root of the Patmore name, is "de Patmore".
The thing that really niggles is what we call the "Patmore nose" I know you shouldn't generalise about these things, but it's always made me wonder! It may just be they knew the Andrews and others from being in business in London.
I'll have another look at the names you've given me and all the ones in papers I have, and also let you know the most useful ones.
Have a nice day!
Emms
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Hi Janet. In your reply of 9 Dec 09 #10 you mention:
The family were told stories about Elizabeth's "Grand Uncle Towill" and his large house and "Madam Towill of Taunton "
My information is that Elizabeth Rutt's parents were George Rutt and Elizabeth Towill and Elizabeth was born in Taunton. Somerset. I can find no record or mention of Elizabeth Towill's father or how she was connected to the Towills in Taunton. Mr Towill probably died fairly young because Elizabeth lived with brother John Cole a wealthy fuller in Taunton. In fact the Rutt and Cole families remained very close throughout the mid 1700s according to a few old letters that have survived.
I am very interested to hear if you have any details on Grand Uncle Towill and Madam Towill. In a few weeks time in early March I plan to spend a day in Taunton and have a good look around. I have already had the local records office trawled for Towill and Cole papers but am still missing the link in the Towill tree.
Brian
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Hi Brian, I am still putting together the Andrews info for you ,I haven`t forgotten you. It is interesting to hear you are going to Taunton. I have an article from the web I found when looking for the Rev Mordecai Andrews 1 & 2. It talks obout the various disenting ministers in Essex and says Elizabeth Rutt was the grandaughter of Rev John Mason 2nd. I know " Mord "2nd was very close to the dissenting families in Coggeshall ,they were the Pattissons and the Unwins. I think these families are related to the Masons. that may give you an angle to work from. How you get Rutt, Towill ,Unwin and Mason to match up I don`t know. There may be a second marriage perhaps ,goodluck .Janet
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Hi,Pat welcome abooard! I would love anything you can give me. I am stumped at the momement by Rev Mordecai Andrews 1st,and his wives Sarah Maydman and Sarah Fann.I have no family for them . I have 3 children for "Mord" and Sarah Maydman, Sarah, Mary and "Mord' 2nd, although I suspect there may be an older "Mord" who had sons and they have kept the family name alive. I have found 12 "Mords" so far but only three can be attached to my tree. Glad to hear from you Janet
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Hi emms, glad to hear from you. Eliza Julia was one of "Mord"2nd and Elizabeth Rutt`s 11 children. I have a book written about her,with her letters and the other is written by her husband George Flower, both are available on line. Very rich history!! You will get the details when I send my info ,Janet
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Hi All
Great to hear the replies, and all this info coming out! These are a fascinating group of people. The only vague link in a record that I've thought of so far, is a couple of wills, where Edward Orme was if I remember correctly a witness.
I've got much of the census information but it's not all consistent. I will go throuh andlook for your family in the neighbours.
Best woishes
Emms
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Thank you all for such a lot of information about the Andrews. My interest in them comes from the fact that my family the Taylors were their neighbours in Stanford Rivers and were also dissenters.
This is to let you all know that the wills of all three Mordecais are available to buy online at the UK national archives, details below. Even if you don't want to pay to download them , this gives us the probate dates, which usually means the death was a month or two earlier.
Will of Mordecai Andrews, Gentleman of Artillery Lane, City of London 22 February 1750 PROB 11/776
Will of Reverend Mordecai Andrews of City of London 10 February 1800 PROB 11/1336
Will of Mordecai Andrews 12 August 1820 PROB 11/1633
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so does anyone here know when
Rev. Samuel Douglas married Elizabeth Andrews ?
Argentina x
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Sorry I do not know the date of that marriage, but you may all be interested in the following:
MORDECAI ANDREWS - Christening: 23 JUN 1762 Independent, Great Coggeshall.
This is possibly the one who married Hannah Litchfield and/or the clothier whose 1803 will is in the Essex Record office.
One of their sons Joseph married Hannah King who lived in Stanford Rivers at the same time as Emily [Mrs Temple] and her mother and brother Frederick who was an inventor like JTR. The two Andrews families together there is probably more than a coincidence - it was a small village.
This is interesting because of the name of this Mordecai’s brother, which looks like the Rutt middle name that people are puzzling over:
GAMALIEL ANDREWS - Christening: 23 JUN 1762 Independent, Great Coggeshall,
There is also an older brother
JOHN ANDREWS - Christening: 21 DEC 1757 Independent, Great Coggeshall,
They are all sons of John Andrews
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Hi Fiona,
It's just that I have info that Rev Samuel Douglas my GGGGGUncle married Mordecia's widow Elizabeth ( Rutt )
Samuel died 1820
Argentina x
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And that would make total sense - her a minister's widow with several young children and not much money at a guess.
Let's hope that someone can find the marriage record. With dissenters it is not always straightforward. As I understand it, their chapels were allowed to do baptisms (a religious ceremony) but not marriages (because it is a legal/civil ceremony as well as religious). So they either had to go to a Church of England church or else go to London where I think [not sure here] there were a few places where dissenters could be married.
F
PS
Have you contacted the Essex Record Office?
Their reference D/NC 22/43 is information about London Road Chapel in Chelmsford.
Memorials to: Revd. John Gibbons, pastor, d.1763 Revd. Sam. Douglas, pastor, d.1820 Revd. George Wilkinson, pastor, d.1903 Revd. Thomas McDougall Mundle, pastor, d.1920 William Johns, d.1822, Jos. Woodcock, d.1829, and Thomas Hodges, d.1840
Also photograph of grave of Revd. Samuel Douglas and Revd. John Gibbons
contact:
ero.enquiry AT essex.gov.uk
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yes Fiona I have a copy of the memorial but didn't receive photo of grave....have to re-apply me thinks.
Argentina x
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Hi,Fiona and Argentia, I can`t find a marriage for Elizabeth and Samuel, I agree with Fiona about the laws with dissenting marriages, it just makes things more difficult . Thanks Fiona for the probate tip I will follow that up. I have a new family tree just sent to me by a distant cousin, he paid a researcher to find the Mordecai family and the Andrews family crest which is the same as that on Bishop Lancelots tomb. The researcher said it could be connected to Sir Johnathan Andrews of Kempton Park, he married Judith Grantham, her father was Sir Thomas Grantham. Their son Grantham Andrews sold the estate about 1720. This is all new to me any thoughts? I don`t know what the family crest looks like.
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My great great grandfather Henry hyam hart b circa 1806 d 14/10/1880
maarried a Ann Mordecai in England circa 1825/1828. She was born circa 1809
and died 20/5/1894 at 309 drummond st carlton melbourne. Was Mordecai used
only as a first name or also as a family name? If there is someone who can
enlighten me on this,
Thanks
Pwh
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After i did put my first post out i did some net trawling. I found that the name originated
in modern Iraq about 4000bc . It seems that it is one of the oldest names in the
world. if anyone is researching Henry hyam Hart or Ann Mordecai, i am their great
great grand son and have a significant amount of information about them , their
descendents and other lines of the Hart family. i will be happy to share that
information.
peter
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Hi Janet and all.
A new post I just put up in George Morgan Patmore :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=563881.new;topicseen#new
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Janet and Brian
I hope you are still reading all this after a years silence.
I am related to the Rutts. Elizabeth Rutt and John May are my 4xG Grandparents. I would be interested in finding out more about them although my uncle has undertacken a fair amount himself.
Jo
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Hello everyone, it has been a while since I began this family search and I have been very lucky to have had so much help from so many people. I really do appreciate your help. At the moment I am trying to find the connection btween Rev John Mason and the wife of Rev Mordecai Andrews ( 1st) . I don't believe Elizabeth Rutt was Mason's granddaughter. Mordecai 1st ( I call him this because there is his son Rev Mordecai 2nd ) Mord 1st married Sarah Maydman and Sarah Fann , I haven't been able to find family for either of these ladies. Sarah Maydman had a great uncle Henry Maydman and his daughter Jane who left Sarah property in Gosport . I have no info on Sarah Fann's family. Hannah May was the 1st wife of Mordecai 2nd, her parents were John May and Rachel Pattisson, and grandparents were joseph pattisson and Elizabeth Wallman . Elizabeth Rutt was the 2nd wife of Mordecai 2nd, her parents were George Rutt and Elizabeth Towill ,her granparents were John Rutt and Ann Horricks, and Richard (I think) Towill and Elizabeth Cole. The Mason connection has to come from Sarah Maydman or Sarah Fann. Any ideas ??
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Does anyone know of a family connection between Mordecai Andrews and Mary Andrews christened 09 Jun 1772 at Rochford Independent?