RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Smoo on Saturday 14 November 09 20:53 GMT (UK)
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Sorry if this has been asked loads before but I am overwhelmed by the amount of information here and already confused!
I am trying to find out where abouts in Ireland my family came from to settle in Glasgow. It was approx 1839 - 1841 (because 2nd youngest child born 1839 in Ireland but youngest child born 1841 in Glasgow), which seems to be before most Irish records are available. I assume they would not be rich enough to own land as they came to work in the cotton mills and lived in the Gorbals. I am fairly certain they would not be Catholic as their children were married in either the Scottish Episcopal Church or Church of Scotland in later years.
All the records I can find show them as born in Ireland but I cannot find any where a county is mentioned. I have even tried looking for older family they may have left behind but with such common names as Roberts and Baillie, I think I could have a long and possibly fruitless search on my hands!
I wondered if there would be immigration lists but cannot seem to find anything that early.
Can anyone point me in the right direction please, if such research is possible!?
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Hi Smoo,
I have the same problem. On the record for my family it just stated Ireland without a county to go on; and my understanding is that Irish records are difficult to find. I have asked for pointers and have joined an Irish Genealogy site.
So I hope that you do not mind if I tag along on this one. I think I found my family in 1841 in Renfrew but I am unable to confirm they are connected to my known family. So I wish you luck in your research and watch with bated breath on advice given.
My family also came to Lanark and surrounding areas.
Marjorie
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Sorry if this has been asked loads before but I am overwhelmed by the amount of information here and already confused!
I am trying to find out where abouts in Ireland my family came from to settle in Glasgow. It was approx 1939 - 1941 (because 2nd youngest child born 1939 in Ireland but youngest child born 1841 in Glasgow), which seems to be before most Irish records are available. I assume they would not be rich enough to own land as they came to work in the cotton mills and lived in the Gorbals. I am fairly certain they would not be Catholic as their children were married in either the Scottish Episcopal Church or Church of Scotland in later years.
All the records I can find show them as born in Ireland but I cannot find any where a county is mentioned. I have even tried looking for older family they may have left behind but with such common names as Roberts and Baillie, I think I could have a long and possibly fruitless search on my hands!
I wondered if there would be immigration lists but cannot seem to find anything that early.
Can anyone point me in the right direction please, if such research is possible!?
unfortunatly you need to know where your family originated, and their religion to even start parish record searches. You may find possible locations for any family members that remained in Ireland behind on Griffiths valuation which was taken in the 1850s/60s - see : http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml
there will be no Immigration listes - we were all part of the UK at that stage.
p.s. you might want to have a look at the dates in your post - you seem to have a bit of a mix-up of centuries...
Shane
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Oops - of course you are right Shane! Now corrected - thanks :O)
Marcie - fingers, toes, eyes, knees and teeth crossed that there is some information out there somewhere to help us!! ???
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I had the same problem with my family
but thankfully a couple of the family had children in 1855
that years birth certs gives the place of birth for the parents
so I was able to find out that they came from Dunboe
so keep looking you never know what will turn up
Good Luck
Elaine
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As Elaine mentioned the best bet is to get whatever details you can from Scottish certs. I know for example that some Scottish birth certs (not sure when this commenced though..) contains marriage date and place for parents. Are there other details that could relate to Ireland on marriage or death certs ?
other details, like occupations of Irish fathers can sometimes give a clue to possible locations..
Shane
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Smoo,
I have exactly the same problem and the same frustrations: formal complete records starting in 1855 and tracing the Irish into Glasgow route of the 1840s seems well night impossible when you know your family were pretty poor.
The only success I had was to try and search Irish marriages - if you know one child was born in 1839 in Ireland then the marriage presumably took place before that, and the marriage listings give their father's name. I had no luck at all with finding birth records.
The one marriage I found was on a site call emeraldancestors.com
Good luck, Maggie 1895
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As far as I know the Emerald Ancestors web-site Maggie 1895 mentioned holds mostly Northern Ireland records. There is also the Irish Family History Foundation pay-webiste (www.irish-roots.ie) which has RC, CofI and other parish records for many Irish counties.
Shane
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Sorry, Shane's quite right.
The records I've found were from Antrim, I should have made that clear.
Maggie
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if you are lucky enough to find a child born 1855 to
an Irish parent this is what is on the cert
this one the mother was born in Coleraine
Elaine
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Hi Smoo,
I don't know where you are located, but I wanted to mention the poor relief records held in the Mitchell Library in Glasgow. That is the only way I found out where some of my Irish branches came from. Sometimes those records contain a considerable amount of information.
Karen
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The eldest child in the family was actually born 1831.
Thanks for the Emerald Ancestors link - excellent site but I'm afraid I can't find mine there, have tried the marriage and all the siblings' births too but found no records that are early enough to be any of them :(
No luck with Irish Roots either but, again, thank you.
All these great sites I never knew about.
Just no ggg-grandparents!
Karen - that is fab! Must try and get up for a look at those - a working class family arriving in Glasgow with 4 children may have needed some form of help one way or another. I'm just over an hour from Glasgow - can just never seem to get time off work for these things. I am such a novice at this too, I could waste days.... at least if I know what I am looking for before I go, my time could be spent more usefully :O)
Thanks again, everybody, for your help!
Smoo
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Smoo,
Karen is absolutely right about the Mitchell. I went there looking for Poor Relief records for Airdrie, but they haven't survived.
There are a lot of records that have survived though, so good luck.
You can also go upstairs and look through all the old parish records, and you never know, there might be a nugget there for you around the birth of the last child in Glasgow.
Maggie
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Smoo
if you have the childrens marriage cert why not post some of the names
and dates although their marriage cert wont say where they came from
it may help to find children born to them
that may give some clues
Elaine
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Hi Elaine,
That's a good idea.
I already have the children's names - John, Henry, Elizabeth and Mary ROBERTS born Ireland between 1831 and 1839, youngest Matilda born Glasgow 1841 from a census. Parents George Roberts and Jean, ms. Baillie - no marriage for them as it would have been in Ireland.
I don't have all the children's marriage records yet - only Mary who is my gg-grandmother, married in Glasgow 1865 and there is no clue on that one, although it's where I got the parents' names from.
I am reluctant to look for others as I fear I might just find the same thing. I have already spent a fortune on SP - and wasted most of it! :( But I shall certainly keep it in mind next time I am feeling flush, or visiting anywhere useful - thanks!
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OK, by logical deduction, I think I have narrowed down all the options and found children's marrriage years on SP - except for Matilda who I cannot trace at all, not even a death, either OPR or Stat. Most peculiar - unlness there is something I haven't thought of..... which is more than likely!!
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I hope I'm wrong, but is there a possibility that Matilda didn't make it to the formal records in 1855? If she died as a small child you might not find the record. You said you found Matilda's details from a census, was that the 1851 census? If so, is she still shown in 1861? If she is then at least a childhood death is ruled out.
Hopefully it's just that she wasn't too fond of her name, and all her later records were listed as something else
Maggie 1895
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Hi Maggie,
It was only as an infant in 1841 that I found her. No record in 1851 or later, so I looked for deaths but there isn't anything.
In 1841 there was an aunt (mother's sister, possibly twin, same birth year) also living with the family. I can't find any later record for her either so I wonder if she maybe moved away and took Matilda - possibly married and using a different name by 1851. I can't imagine why this would be the case though. I have tried FreeCen for any Elizabeth born in Ireland in the 1851 census but there's nothing there either!
Good thought about the name thing - but I can't think for the life of me what else you would call Matilda? I've already tried Mattie/y. Maddie, Mat*, Tillie/ey/y etc, all to no avail.
I think I need to give up on this one and concentrate on some more direct lines, unfortunately. :( I don't like leaving things incomplete but I'm totally stumped on this. I suppose I better get used to it, eh?? lol
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Marriages probably wont help either
they are all in the 1860's but you never know if we put them here maybe
someone else descending from the family who does know may be able to help
I think these may be your famillies marriages
from IGI
Henry Roberts married Elizabeth Cowan 17/1/1861
Henry Roberts .............Mary Flinn............5/5/1866
Elizabeth Roberts.........John Boyd ...........20/4/1860
John Roberts................Margaret McDade 2/6/1865
Elaine
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Thanks for that Elaine! They are indeed correct - I was just having a look at the IGI too :O)
For some reason I previously thought I had had Henry's marriage in 1861, can't remember why, but now I am finding those 2 for him as well! No clues as to which one is correct by the names unfortunately, but the Boyd that Elizabeth married is later used as a middle name (at least once, I think maybe twice) by his sister Mary for her children, a rather odd habit I think, like I said before :)
Just hope someone else recognises one of them and can maybe shed some light on this.
Many thanks again for this - I really appreciate your help!
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It was only as an infant in 1841 that I found her. No record in 1851 or later, so I looked for deaths but there isn't anything.
I'm really sorry to say this but though the Aunt heading off with Matilda is a possibility it's more likely that Matilda didn't survive till 1851. Living conditions in the Gorbals were not good.
My great-great Uncle Thomas died of consumption at the age of 7 - mining family, also Lanarkshire. I knew from the family story he existed, he shows in the 1851 census as a baby and because he died in 1857 there is was a death registered, which I found on SP. It even tells me where he is buried - Wellwynd Churchyard in Airdrie.
No parish records, and believe me I have looked, sat in the Mitchell winding through every page, and no record of the burial because almost certainly it would have been a pauper's grave. As they are now happily building a car park there, no further trace will ever be found. The only route left was the Parish Relief, because there was probably a request for help with the funeral costs - and those record have been lost. I think you have a good chance at the Mitchell for finding those from the Gorbals.
The only reason I know what happened to Thomas is because registration after 1855 compelled it. If he had died on or before 1854 he would have vanished without a trace.
Although you obviously want to go on looking, and good on you, I really do hope you find something, I think there is a possibility that Matilda may have died before 1851, and no record exists for you to find - apart possibly from an application for relief.
I really do hope you prove me wrong!
Maggie 1895
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I kinda thought that anyway Maggie - not to worry, it's just not knowing for sure that she died, or being able to find a record if it, that annoys me!
I know there was a high infant mortality rate in the 19th century as I used to be a museum tour guide and one of the visitor attractions was all about the housing & general living conditions for mining life between 1710 & 1840 :O)
Besides, I have plenty of other family members causing me enough of a headache as it is, lol
Smoo
PS thanks for the idea about financial help for a funeral - will get round to looking into that :)
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As Elaine mentioned the best bet is to get whatever details you can from Scottish certs. I know for example that some Scottish birth certs (not sure when this commenced though..) contains marriage date and place for parents. Are there other details that could relate to Ireland on marriage or death certs ?
other details, like occupations of Irish fathers can sometimes give a clue to possible locations..
Could you explain a little further. As I have never been to ireland and have no idea of trade to counties with a few exceptions such Waterford Crystal. Or what areas are known for.
marcie
Shane
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As Elaine mentioned the best bet is to get whatever details you can from Scottish certs. I know for example that some Scottish birth certs (not sure when this commenced though..) contains marriage date and place for parents. Are there other details that could relate to Ireland on marriage or death certs ?
other details, like occupations of Irish fathers can sometimes give a clue to possible locations..
Shane
Could you explain a little further. As I have never been to ireland and have no idea of trade to counties with a few exceptions such Waterford Crystal. Or what areas are known for.
marcie
I dont have a specific list done, it would require researching the individual occupations and timeframe, and obviously many (farmer, labourer etc) dont really provide any location clues
Also details on certain trades & occupation can be found in early directories...e.g. Slater's, Pigot's etc
Shane
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PS thanks for the idea about financial help for a funeral - will get round to looking into that
Hi Smoo, Maggie,
Is if possible to have a little more information on this. My uncle was placed into a paupers grave in Edinburgh, that would have been about 1932. Have not yet looked for his records, but will do soon.
marcie
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Thanks Shane,
Understand a little better, will check the census details and find his occupation and have a go at finding him that way. All his children were born in Ireland, so I do not have the benifit of a child born in Scotland stating the parents Irish county of origin. So this would be helpful to me, I hope ;D
marcie
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Anyone got any info on Irish Flour mills or millers in the Glasgow area. I am trying to find a birth record for Willian Byrne born Glasgow St. Marys some time around 1860-68.
Have tried scottishpeople database but no luck. He gave his occupation as Flour miller on application form for the DUP Irish police in 1884. His father was John Byrne also a flour miller. Even general info on flour mills Glasgow may be of help.
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......He gave his occupation as Flour miller on application form for the DUP Irish police in 1884.....
should that be DMP ? (Dublin Metropolitan Police )
Shane
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Yes Shane,
You are totally correct! DMP as in Dublin Metroplitan Police. Must be computer fatigue...there are so many interesting postings on this site.....
Thanks for all your help today...
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Smoo, the following entry appears in Ancestry's 1851 census transcription -
George Roberts, age 42, born Ireland, occupation hand loom weaver
Jane Roberts (Bailie), age 36, born Ireland, occupation pern winder
John Roberts, age 19, born Ireland, occupation Blue Dyer
Henry Roberts, age 15, born Ireland, apprenticed to Cotton Printer
Eliza Roberts, age 13, born Ireland, Worker in Printfield(dodgy transcription?)
Mary Roberts, age 8, born Glasgow
George Roberts, age 1, born Glasgow
Elizabeth Bailie, mother-in-law, age 72, Not Able to Work
Family living at No 2 Franklin Street, Calton.
I wonder whether it is possible that the family had two daughters called Mary? The one born late 1830s may not have made it.
I don't mean to sound callous, but if you are lucky enough to have the mother-in-law die in Scotland, then you will get her parents names too! :-[
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And in 1861 still in Calton, 3 London Road, Bridgeton:
George Roberto(! presumably Roberts), age 54, Mason's Labourer
Jane Roberto, age 50
Henry Roberto, age 25, Mason's Labourer
Mary Roberto, age 18, Bleachfield Worker
George Roberto, age 6 (another George?), born Glasgow
James Ferguson, age 2, Grandson, born Glasgow
Karen
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In 1871 Henry is head of the household at 15 Hozier St, Bridgeton, possibly indicating that the father, George, had died during the previous decade:
Henry Roberts, age 37, Labourer in Print Work
Jane Roberts, age 61, Mother
John Roberts, age 40, Labourer in Dye Work
George Roberts, age 5, born Glasgow, listed as Henry's son
None of this tells you where they came from in Ireland, but do not lose heart! You will find out one day. Perhaps Santa will bring you more SP credits for Christmas. ;D
Karen
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Oh dear - this gets even more confusing.
But one thing I know for sure is that the Mary born in 1839 DID survive - because she married my gg-grandfather in 1865. She is also noted as being born in Ireland. Perhaps at age 12 she was not at home? I know young girls could go into service from the age of 10 in those days.
The Elizabeth Baillie that I have was noted as age 25 in the 1841 census - I thought it may have been Jane's sister (possibly twin as Jane was the same age), but at 72 this is just too much of a difference to be the same one.
Hopefully she will have a death record in Scotland and, as you say, may have parents on it - fingers crossed!
Is it possible that the Matilda born in 1841 got called Mary? There is a discrepancy of a couple of years but that's no big deal.
I didn't know of a George, but I haven't looked into the children's children apart from Mary's. Do you think the one in 1851 could be a different George from the 1871 son of Henry's? Because in 1851 Henry would only have been 15-17 although I suppose it's still possible that George is his son (randy lot my family were, lol)
I will need to find out where Ferguson comes in - I think only the daughter Eliza could be the mother, she would be 22 when he was born. I know for sure he's not Mary's and can't think of any other option.
Thank you so much for this info Karen - while it may seem confusing to me right now, at least I have a few more avenues open to explore and hopefully can turn something up that pulls the jigsaw together a bit!
I actually ended up buying a few SP credits last night - will try to use them more sensibly this time :O)
Much appreciated!
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Darn - just realised Elizabeth Roberts cannot have been mother of James Ferguson as she married a John Boyd in 1860 - and I have that marriage cert.
Back to the drawing board for Ferguson..... :(
On a brighter note, there IS a death record for George Roberts in Bridgeton in 1870 so that would make sense why Henry is head in 1871. Haven't got the cert yet so still no parents' names for the Ireland connection. But by process of elimination, there is only one of them, thank goodness!
Why oh why do you only ever have 5 SP credits left when you need 6?! Why isn't there a way of skipping the list grid when there is only one result - I KNOW it is the one I want!
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And I may have a death for the mother-in-law Elizabeth Baillie too - 1858 in Calton - again the only one for the range of years.
I wonder who the Elizabeth Baillie age 25 in 1841 is then? Is it possible the 2 is actually meant to be a 6 as she would be 62 or so then? I haven't seen the original, just got it on FreeCen.
8-/
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I also have Ferguson in my tree, but have not found what the connection is.
marcie.
I am sure that I have already sent this. Must be a problem do you think.... Should I alert Bob d'you think?
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Marcie - are any of your Fergusons linked to any of your other names at all - or just appeared out of nowhere like mine?
Not aware of any technical issue here today - might be worth flagging up.
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Smoo,
Yes and no,
My grgran Majory Charles Ferguson Mcdonald Brown. Had a difficult time finding the Charles part, but monicalesl helped get me on the right track. Then the Halls led me to Forbes which led me to Barron.
Have not quite proved the connection between Barron and Hall or Forbes yet, I have a link missing. It does not look as is George and Annie had any children. I have a feeling that servants had to ask the laird or whoever for permission to get married and I am almost positive that they were not expected to have any. Although in this case I think that they were of an age that it was more unlikely.
marcie
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So your Mary is listed on later censuses (ie after her marriage) as having been born in Ireland? I have also found a Mary Roberts in 1851, age 14, born Ireland, lodging with a McGuire family at 61 Drygate Glasgow St Mungo district, and working as a Mill Doffer. Interestingly, a Margaret Roberts, age 20, born Ireland, occupation Flax Reeler is lodging at the same address. Perhaps an older sister? I would have to say that I do not see an obvious entry in 1861 for this Mary.
As far as Mary/Matilda is concerned - I really have no idea. Seems odd to call a child Matilda then refer to her as Mary, particularly if you already have a Mary! But who knows without the birth records.
The George born in 1850 is certainly listed as George and Jane's son. And hopefully Henry's son George, will have a birth certificate if you chose to download it at some point. Without the facts, you imagine all sorts of things. ;D Again, the easiest way to find James Ferguson's parents would be to download his birth certificate, rather than speculate.
Just to say in passing - I certainly got a few births for Jane Bailie come up on Irish Roots, so hopefully once you have her death certificate on SP, you will have enough info to find the correct entry. Good luck!
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Smoo, I hope that comment about not speculating did not come across as rather short or downright rude. I did not mean it in that way, but I know that, in writing, some things can come across in a way you did not intend. No offence meant!
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No offence taken, Karen, I know what you mean. I am just going through all possibilities so that I can try various searches in the hope of finding the truth :O)
Interesting about Jane Baillie on Irish roots - I see there is a Jane Bailey (spelling I have varies on different certs anyway) in Co Antrim in 1816, the DOB I have for her. Can't find a George Roberts but I see that a lot of records from Antrim & Down are not yet online so will wait and see if they turn anything up when available.
Thanks for the info about Mary & Margaret Roberts in 1851- not sure if it's relevant at all but will keep it in mind.
Smoo
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Just want to say a HUGE thanks to K44ENF who has sent me loads of information about my Roberts branch, she's a true gem :-*
Marcie - the James Ferguson I have is the illegitimate child of Elizabeth Roberts (not Baillie as I put in by mistake!!) and Peter Ferguson - full name James Baillie Ferguson DOB 18 August 1858 Father's address given as New Dalmarnock Road, Glasgow.
Elizabeth later married John Boyd in 1860 but by 1886 she was using the name Malcolmson. James may have used any of these surnames (including Roberts under which he was originally recorded).
I just thought this may be of interest, in case you have any links to one of those in your tree.
Smoo
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Edited for name error ::)
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Darn - just realised Elizabeth Roberts cannot have been mother of James Ferguson as she married a John Boyd in 1860 - and I have that marriage cert.
Back to the drawing board for Ferguson..... :(
I meant to say that I have not found the connection to the name ferguson all the names I mentioned seemed to be through the female line to the men they married. So I either have to try the direct male line to find the female they married or try John Hutcheon and see if I can find his mother or his mothers parents.? To try and connect to the name ferguson
marcie