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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Myrrh on Sunday 08 November 09 12:43 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I just wondered if there was anyone out there who knew why my gt. Grandfather was named Charles SURRENDER Smith??
He was a brass dresser, born in Aston in 1861 and died there aged 39 in September 1900. I've wondered about battles, and possible Quaker names,(don't know if he was a Quaker) but I'm just hoping that, maybe, there's someone out there who has it in their "family memory banks".
This is the name on his death certificate, and I also remember as a child seeing a black rimmed Mourning Card with these details on it. Just a thought :-[
Thanks
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Just to say I am aware of a listing on LDS of a Charles Serendar Smith, but the parents' names don't match, and the date is a couple of years out as well. My g. grandad definitely died in Villa St, Aston. I'm trying to trace this Charles Serendar, but with no luck so far.
Myrrh
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Hello myrrh,
Afraid I am unable to help with your Charles Surrender Smith, but I have in my family tree a Maria Smith who married Edward Linney 20/11/1843, Aston, War. Maria's father was Charles Smith. Any chance these folk could be related to you? Mel
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there is no birth reg for Charles Surrender Smith, or Charles Sarender Smith or similar, so he must have gained this middle name later in life by the look of it.
What were his parents names? Was he married?
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Hi Satchwell,
No relation I'm afraid. My Smiths were still in Leicestershire in 1851.
Myrrh.
Liz, thanks for taking a look at this. His parents were Charles Smith and Emily (or Emma) Patrick, both from Leicestershire. Charles Jnr was born in B'ham in I think 1861, was a brass worker, and married a Minnie Evans. His death cert states he was 39 when he died in Sept 1900. I haven't been able to find his birth, but I thought I had found one on LDS for Charles Serendar Smith with parents George and Martha, but nothing on BMD so far...I must have another look at this...Not much point in getting the marriage cert of his parents, because I know who they were, by the children's names looking from one census to the other. A real puzzle.
Myrrh
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Hi
When did he marry Minnie and was that her real christian name or a nickname
His parents were Charles Smith and Emily (or Emma) Patrick, both from Leicestershire
How do you know his parents names - do you have some other documentation apart from his birth cert
There is an 1871 entry with those parents and birthyear is shown as 1862 although 1891 shows 1861
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Hi
When did he marry Minnie and was that her real christian name or a nickname
I wondered whether it was a marriage in Mar qtr 1891 - Charles SMITH and Winnie EVANS appear in the GRO index (Aston 6d 427) but perhaps there was an error in the compilation of the index ???
Anna
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Hi
I think it may have been earlier than 1891 as there is a Charles & Minnie Smith with 3 children on the 1891
RG12 Piece 2428 Folio 65 Page 34
Charles Smith 30 brass dresser railway & ship lamps b Birmingham
Minnie 22 b Staffs Handsworth
Charles 2 b Birmingham
Clara 1 b Aston Manor
George 1 month b Aston Manor
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Hi
I think it may have been earlier than 1891 as there is a Charles & Minnie Smith with 3 children on the 1891
RG12 Piece 2428 Folio 65 Page 34
Charles Smith 30 brass lamp and ship?? b Birmingham
Minnie 22 b Staffs Handsworth
Charles 2 b Birmingham
Clara 1 b Aston Manor
George 1 month b Aston Manor
I saw them, but couldn't find a better marriage for that couple than the 1891 one (the only other in Warwickshire was, I think, 1884, which seemed early given Minnie's age in 1891).
Possibly Minnie was a second wife & not the mother of all the children - or she was their mother, but had a belated trip down the aisle?
Perhaps Myrrh will clarify.
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:)That's interesting. Minnie was her proper name, as she remarries using it after being widowed. I knew Charles was with his parents in 1881 and with Minnie on the 1891 census as "married". I haven't been able to find a marriage, but if Minnie was transcribed as Winnie, that would be understandable - I suppose it might mean they couldn't afford to get married, or maybe they were waiting to be sure they liked each other enough! ;D
Myrrh
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Possible for Minnie in 1881 - with Uncle George and Aunty Emma
RG11 2687 7 7
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Yes, I had assumed that was her.
:)Myrrh
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How do you know his parents names - do you have some other documentation apart from his birth cert
You don't have his birth cert and you don't have his marriage cert so where did that info come from
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I must say, with a Charles Serendar SMITH on an extracted baptism record I'd be prioritising him until he could be definitively excluded!
1861 census of Birmingham Lady Wood shows George & Martha SMITH, both 28, with sons John (7), George H (4) and Charles (1) - the elder two consistent with baptisms in the same batch as Charles Serendar SMITH. The whole family is born Birmingham.
1861 ref is RG9/2130/44/28.
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Looks as if Martha has died and George remarried to a young Susannah by 1871
RG10 3112 82 33
Playing up and wont let me see the image, but transcript suggests it is them
George 38
Susannah 25
John 17
George 13
Charles 12
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I know, I know. Can this Charles Serendar Smith be found in 1881??
As I said in an earlier post, I saw as a child a mourning card for Charles Surrender Smith aged 30 something, which was typewritten, since disappeared. When I sent for his death certificate it says Charles Surrender Smith aged 39, it was handwritten, and said "widow present at death," which was just put down as "M Smith". He died in Villa Street, and his occupation was Brass Dresser Journeyman.
All I know for certain is that the Minnie Smith shown in 1901 living in Villa Street, Aston, Birmingham is my great grandmother. RG13?sorry, punched hole through it! My grandfather Ernest is there aged 8. He lived in Villa Street all his life (73 years).
So in 1891 I had a Charles and Minnie Smith in Villa Street and he was a Brassdresser. Of the children mentioned on this, I have found deaths for both Clara and George, both of whom died as toddlers. Which leaves a son Charles aged 2 in this 1891 census and in the 1901 census I have the widow with a son Charles, 10 years older at 12.
It's 1881 which is the crux I think. RG11/3027 in Railway Terrace, Aston, as a Brassdresser with his parents - or is it this other Charles Serendar Smith - where?
Myrrh
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His parents were Charles Smith and Emily (or Emma) Patrick, both from Leicestershire.
We are still wondering where this info came from!?
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It's 1881 which is the crux I think. RG11/3027 in Railway Terrace, Aston, as a Brassdresser with his parents - or is it this other Charles Serendar Smith - where?
Ican see a Charles Smith, age 20 a labourer unmarried boarding at 48 railway Terrace RG11 3034 98 10 but pres. that isnt the one you have seen
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OK got it
RG11 3027 128 25
35 Railway Terrace
but he is only 18 and born Aston?
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I am not sure what you mean by where I got the information from. Given my grandfather's birthdate and birthplace, I found him in the 1901 census in Villa Street, Aston, which is where he was born, lived and died. I knew his Mother was called Minnie and there she was. I knew his father had died young, and there he wasn't in 1901, but was in 1891.
I found a death certificate of Charles Surrender Smith in 1900. I looked in the 1891 census and found Minnie married to a Charles, with the correct occupation, as stated on the death certificate.
It is prior to that I'm not sure of. A Charles Smith was in Railway Terrace as a Brassroller. It's a question of is this the Charles Smith who married Minnie, or was it the son of George and Martha - was he also a Brassroller or dresser? Can he be found? I'm afraid I'm not signed up at the moment. This query was posted originally several months ago.
Myrrh
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I think what lizdb was asking was where you got the information that the relevant Charles' parents were Charles SMITH and Emma/Emily PATRICK from Leicestershire.
You said early on that you didn't like Charles Serendar SMITH because his parents didn't match - presumably meaning they were inconsistent with your belief that the correct parents for the Charles who married Minnie (and died as Charles Surrender SMITH) were Charles and Emma/Emily, not George and Martha. But you haven't said what is the basis for that belief.
You also said in the first post on the thread that the right Charles was born in Aston - but the only census on which you have him linked to Minnie is the 1891, and on that one he says he was born Birmingham.
We're just trying to understand and therefore be better able to help :)
Anna
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It's a question of is this the Charles Smith who married Minnie, or was it the son of George and Martha - was he also a Brassroller or dresser?
With a name as common as Charles SMITH (and no in-laws with Charles & Minnie in 1891) the only way you will be able to ascertain the details of his father with any confidence will be to purchase Charles & Minnie's marriage certificate.
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Hi Myrrh
I though I had made it clear in my pm to you as well as in the queries above that what we want to know is how you know that Charles Surrender Smith's parents were Charles Smith & Emily/Emma Patrick?
You don't have a birth cert for him and you don't have his marriage cert to Minnie/Winnie to check his fathers name yet you have said: -
Just to say I am aware of a listing on LDS of a Charles Serendar Smith, but the parents' names don't match
His parents were Charles Smith and Emily (or Emma) Patrick, both from Leicestershire. Charles Jnr was born in B'ham in I think 1861,
The Charles jnr you refer to is Charles Surrender Smith who we know from census entries was b Birmingham
So - where did you get the info from that his parents were Charles Smith and Emily/Emma Patrick
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Absolutely, and that is what I intend to do, now Anna has found the marriage of Charles and Minnie "Winnie", Evans, which I couldn't find previously.
Other than that, it was circumstantial evidence only which led me to believe Charles and Emily were the parents, such as occupation, dates, area of Birmingham (I would have thought on a census you might get Aston or Birmingham reported as place of birth - were the enumerators really that exact?? When he was at home, and when he was gone (married?). And I couldn't find a trace of the other Charles, son of George and Martha, going forward, although obviously I could never quite ignore this possibility, due to the similarity in the name. I suppose one instinctively goes with the revolving door, rather than the brick wall.
This Charles had an elder brother Arthur, and one of my Charles' sons was named Arthur. Once I get the marriage cert, I'll know which family for sure, but I guess I'll never know why the strange middle name, whether it was Surrender or Surendar, or whatever.
Thanks for your interest. I'll see what I get. Glad the marriage has been found. Off to bed now.
Myrrh