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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => Topic started by: jakky on Thursday 10 March 05 11:44 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
As I have searched for what seems years for the marriage certificate of Samuel Thomas & Ann Hallam. I wonder if they lied on their son Benjamin's birth certificate.
He was Christened at Holy Trinity Hull in 1859. 20th October.
it states they were married, in fact I can find no record of them anywhere.
I am just about ready to give up on these two, but it will end my search for my maternal granddad, Benjamin.
I am at a complete loss
any ideas?
thanks Jakky ???
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Hi Jakky
Don't suppose it's one of those where Ann had been married before but not noted on Benjamin's birth certificate? What was her maiden name? Have you found them on all the available census returns? Did they have other children?
Casalguidi
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Thanks for the reply Cas.
I have not found them on any census and it says on the certificate her maiden name was Hallam/Hallan.
It seems I can never find them, there are Hallams in Hull, but I can't make a connection with Ann.
I have this sinking feeling Sam was from Wales
I truly am fed up with these two.
Sam. was dead on Benjamins wedding certificate in Fleetwood Lanc in 1894, but there is no record of his death in the Fylde or in Yorkshire,
never mind eh!
Thanks for the support ,,
Jakky
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Hi Jakky
I expect you already have these but the only Ben THOMASs that I can find 1871-1901 census born Hull were:
1901 age 41 in Lincolnshire (aboard ship?)
1881 age 20 (aboard ship)
1871 age 10 (aboard ship)
This would lead me to believe that there was possibly only the one Benjamin THOMAS born Hull c1859/1861 ???
The 1871 entry:
William THOMAS 30 widower master b.Dursbury Yorkshire
Benjamin son 10 boy - master's son b.Hull
They were aboard the Mary Dewsbury in Queen's Dock, Hull.
Do these occupations fit with the info you have? If so, is it possible that Samuel was also known as William or vice versa?
Looks like you really need an 1861 census entry. Do you have an actual address for Benjamin's birth/baptism 1859 that might help somebody locate them?
Casalguidi
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HI casalguidi,
I have come across this Ben (masters son) before,
but I assumed he was another Benjamin. He was born in Easton Yorks in1858.
On my Ben's birth certificate it states that Samuel was a fruiterer and they lived in Pig Alley off Humbers Street Hull.
Another kind soul looked for them for me but there was no mention of them.
I hoped the Ben in Gorleston on the Ebeneezer in 1881 is my Ben, or at least it is wishful thinking, I moved to live right on the harbour edge in this place and can sit in bed and look at the ships.
It would have been lovely to think he had been here in 1881. .
I could only find his wife Catherine and my mother in 1901 in Fleetwood, so assumed he was at sea, where did you find him? I couldn't find the ship section.
He, Ben, died in 1915 at Preston where he was a Tug Boat captain aged 45. The ages do not add up, but we know this happens.If born in 1859 he was 15years older than his wife, so maybe he lied.
There was a Pamelia Thomas born to parents of the same name two years before Ben at Holy Trinity, but I cannot find anything of her either,
In my mums Bible it says Ben was born in Hull Oct29th 1866. But I think he got that wrong as I can find no Ben in 1866 The birth cert. of 1859 says 27th Nov.
If I could only find a marriage certificate or death certificate for Sam I would be happy, but so would we all. As he was dead by 1894 Ben's marriage I assumed he had died at Fleetwood, but again there appears to be no record of his death.
Thank you for your help, most appreciated and I bet your bored by now :o
Jakky
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Hi Jakky
This certainly isn't adding up is it ???
The Ben THOMAS that I found in 1901 is listed as THOMAS in one index (can't access original) yet as Ben THORNES at http://www.census.pro.gov.uk - age 41 born Hull, keel captain at Keadby, Lincolnshire. A keel appears to be have been a freight barge, mostly for carrying coal on the Tyne according to the dictionary.
So the Catherine L THOMAS in Fleetwood 1901 is definitely Benjamin's wife ???
Can you list everything that is on Benjamin's marriage certificate ie. what was his age, occupation, address, father's name & Occupation, marriage witnesses?
The information about Bemjamin's death - was that known by the family or something that you have unearthed?
I assume the information in your mother's bible to have been provided by him or his wife ???
Look forward to your reply
Casalguidi
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Hi you little star ;D
right I can't find his marriage certificate as yet, but I know he was 20,26,28, they couldn't decide what it was could have looked like any of these.
He was a fisherman married Catherine linger barcock at St Peters Fleetwood on 29th Oct 1894.she was 20.
His father was a Furniture Broker?but dead.
Ben's address was 19 Blakiston Street, but I can't find no. 19 Blakiston st. any number but.
He died aged 46 on 15th Feb.1915 at Preston after falling in the dock and catching cold address was 23 Mersey Street Preston.
An old aunt aged 99. told me that he was from Wigan!!
and he was a Scots Freemason and had a brother who was a high up Freemason who got him the job on the Tug Boats in Preston.
On the marriage certificate I remember a Rhoda Robinson when I looked for her in Hull, she? was in the poorhouse and her daughter was a Thomas. or had been in it.
Another Benjamin Thomas with a Sam and Anne for Parents born in 1865 was a dock gate shipkeeper,
this family minus the mother end up in Birkenhead in 1881 with him at 15 still a shipkeeper.
With the 'scots freemason' in mind I just wondered.
The dock office men at Preston said in' The History of the Ribble' there was a list of tug boats and crew, but they couldn't find a Benjamin Thomas but the boats at that time were the Enterprise and the Energy.
Whatever,
Grandma ends up again in Fleetwood, maybe she never left, and just Ben lived in Preston
Fleetwood is my birthplace.
I went to school in Blakiston Street infants so I know it's there, but what has happend to no.19.
I assume Sam a furniture broker was living at the same address, he certainly was not in Hull.
You have made me realize how unorganized I am, so I am going to make a concerted effort to put all in order.
Maybe I just missed no.19, I have looked for so long it wouldn't suprise me.
Heartfelt thanks
Jakky
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I forgot the other Benjamin that ended up in Birkenhead was born in Hutchesontown Glasgow.
I just wonder why my Granddad would have been a 'scots freemason' I have a photo of him with a freemason tag on his watchchain, with very hardworking grubby fingernails.
Jakky
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Yes, there seems to be something here that isn't quite adding up.
I found 19 Blakiston Street in 1891 - it was the BARCOCK family that were living there.
There are a list of freemasonry lodgers in Fleetwood and other nearby areas here. If you think that your grandfather may have belonged to one of them then they should have some details or him or his brother.
http://www.westlancsfreemasons.org.uk/pages/groups/lodgelist.htm
Also, an email address and telephone number here:
http://www.masonichall.org.uk/Freemasonry%20on%20the%20Fylde.html
I'm not sure what you mean by Scot's freemasonry nor by a freemason tag?
You seem to have quite a lot of information on him and I'm sure that it'll all start coming together once you have got everything in order and established just what is correct.
Best wishes
Casalguidi
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Good morning Casalgudi
Many thanks for your most useful information and help,
I only hope I can help someone oneday in the same unselfish way
Thank you
Jakky
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Hi
I don't know if this will help or not.
On the 1861 census for Hull is the following
Ann Thomas head aged 32, fruiterer, widow, born Wigan
Benjamin Thomas aged 1, born Hull
Sarah Thomas, aged 11, born Wigan
Agnes Thomas, aged 7, born Wigan
Address, 2 Humber Street, Hull.
At least this narrows down the possible death dates for Benjamin's father, and confirms the Wigan conection.
Best wishes
Les
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Sorry, it's me again!
I've just checked FreeBMD and there is a marriage listed for Samuel Thomas March 1849 Bolton 21 55. There is a marriage also listed for an Ann Hallam with the same referance.
At YorkshireBMD there is a birth listed for Benjamin Thomas in 1859 reference HUM/13/227.
Apologies if you already have this information.
Lesley
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Hi Lesley,
not been on line for a while,
thanks for your interest, I have found them now and you are right.
It turns out Ben's father died the year he was born and his mum Ann(Hallam) went back to Wigan and remarrieWhat threw me was me foolishly thinking they were from Hull and I never even thought Samuel might have died.
I have learned a lesson from this, never discount anything ::)
Thanks again
regards
Jakky.
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Hi Jakky
Glad you got the answers you were looking for. ;D
Best wishes
Lesley
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Hi,
Just a snippet of information,
Humber Keels where sailing barges on the Humber, they traded with all kinds of cargo, including men, livestock, fruit and so on.
Humber Street was so named as it was at one time the street running alongside the river Humber, when the town docks where created they reclaimed some of the Humber making Humber Street more inland, however the warehouses still remained, and still do to this day, Humber Street for centuries has been Hull Traders Fruit market,
A century or so ago, there was a real mixture of people living in and around Humber Street, these people ranged from wealthy fruit merchants to paupers. Pig Alley was believed to be where the Pigs where driven through to the livestock Market, after being taken off the boats, as far as I am aware there was a mixture of classes of people living in this Alley, but according to the books I have read, some where in real squalar.
Aah the good old days!
I hope this is of some interest
Tony
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Hi Tony,
Thanks for that,
Anne was down as a fruitier, considering she came from a family of mill workers and clog makers as did Samuel, it is intriguing to try to work out why on earth they went there and changed their jobs, maybe at the time there was so little work in Wigan.
The mills were still working though, there are also Thomas's in Hull so could be a relative, this is as yet on my to do list,
Jakky
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Hello again,
Many Cotton mill workers came to Hull from Wigan, a newspaper at the time stated that the most ignorant vilest people on earth where Wiganers, (or words to that effect) before you take offence, my ancestors where Wiganers also!!
Blame the American civil war for the reason they came to Hull, there was a huge drop in trade with USA at that time, and the cotton mills suffered badly.
A few Cotton Mills opened up in Hull, obtaining cotton from India, many other things where happening in Hull, making it a boom town at that time, so Lancashire mill workers came in their hundreds to work the mills, I think they employed around 2000 people (mostly women) at their peak, but the mills quickly went into decline, however the imports and export of the docks kept growing, so I can see why they changed trades, and at that time it appears Hull was the place to be!
Tony
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Hi Tony,
That is very interesting and could explain a lot.
No offence taken I quite like it, War of the Roses I expect ;D
I assume you have been on the Wigan Worlds site an excellent one.
Also a good read on the free Gutenberg Library books is "Home Life of The Lancashire folk at The Time of the Cotton Famine." Taken from actual interviews.
regards Jakky