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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Wiltshire => Topic started by: janeeliza999 on Thursday 05 November 09 20:57 GMT (UK)
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Hi.
I'm having a lot of trouble sorting part of my family out.
Below is what I have read on here, but the problem is that Moses Dredge has a son called John Dredge but he is married to a Caroline Penn. m 14 Jan 1850.
My John Dredge is married to Elizabeth Stone but I cant seem to find a to find his family as Moses Dredge keeps coming up. Any help would be great.
Jane
From FindMyPast
Wincanton
7 January 1837 John Dredge = Elizabeth Stone
From IGI
JOHN DREDGE died 22 April 1877
Parents: Moses Dredge and Anne Micholas or Nicholas
Married 7 January 1837, Wincanton,
Spouse: Elizabeth Stone
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Jane,
Welcome to the best place there is but should you not be on the SOM forum rather than WIL forum?
Regards
Chas
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Hi. Why go to SOM?
John Dredge Born WILTS
Moses Dredge born WILTS
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Hi Jane,
I am not sure what the problem is here. Perhaps you can explain in more detail.
From the IGI there is a John Dredge baptised in Downton, Wiltshire on 1 June 1817 (possibly born in Britford from the 1851 Census). He is identified as being the son of Moses Dredge and Anne Nicholas (or Micholas). This John appears to have married Elizabeth Stone in Wincanton, Somerset on 7 January 1837 and died on 22 April 1877 (GRO: 5a 130 Alderbury Jun 1877, age 60). James, the eldest son of John and Elizabeth in the 1851 Census is identified as having been born in Wincanton.
There are a lot of John Dredges in the 1851 Census including one born in Downton or Redlynch about 1821 and who married a Caroline Penn in Downton in January 1850 (GRO: 8 371 Alderbury Mar 1850).
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
From IGI
JOHN DREDGE died 22 April 1877
Parents: Moses Dredge and Anne Micholas or Nicholas
Married 7 January 1837, Wincanton,
Spouse: Elizabeth Stone
Moses Dredge does have a son John Dredge b 8 Jun 1817 m Caroline Penn 14 Jan 1850
As you can see above it says Elizabeth Stone as his wife.
My relation is John Dredge b 1818 who married Elizabeth Stone b 1817
There is no second marriage as my John Dredge was alive and married to Elizabeth Stone in the 1851 census.
They have 6 children, the first 2 born 1839 and 1841 Wincanton, 3 born 1843,1845 and 1848 Britford and the last 1857 in East Harnham
John Dredge Pedigree
Born 1817 Redlynch, Wiltshire, England
Married 14 JAN 1850 Downton, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England
Caroline Penn Pedigree
Born 1825 Charlton, , Wiltshire, England
Married 14 JAN 1850 Downton, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England
These people are not my relations, but he is the son of Moses Dredge.
It seems that, somehow, the two families have been combined wrongly.
It is easy to get the wrong people but going back from my Grandmothers birth year 1900 - Harry Dredge 1866 - Thomas S Dredge 1843 - John Dredge -1818.
That is where I come to a stop. His marriage is to Elizabeth Stone.
Thanks for your reply
Jane
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Hi Jane,
How do you know from the information you have provided that it is the John Dredge who married a Caroline Penn rather than Elizabeth Stone who had the father Moses? Have you seen the original entries for either marriage?
The 1851 Census does not shown the John Dredge who married Caroline as born in 1817. He is identified as aged 30 (born Downton) in the 1851 Census, aged 42 (born Downton) in the 1861 Census and aged 60 (born Redlynch) in the 1881 Census. This John Dredge was, therefore, still alive in 1881 and born about 1819 - 21 from the Census entries.
The John Dredge who married Elizabeth Stone is listed as aged 33 (born Britford) in the 1851 Census, aged 44 (born Britford) in the 1861 Census and aged 54 (born Britford) in the 1871 Census. This indicates a birth about 1817. He does not appear in the 1881 Census. This information is, therefore, consistent with a birth and baptism in 1817 and the death in 1877.
The 1861 Census confirms Thomas S. Dredge as being the son of John and Elizabeth.
From the above information it does not appear to be the John Dredge b 8 Jun 1817 who married Caroline Penn on 14 Jan 1850.
Nigel
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Hello,
I looked for John last night but then just as I got it ready to post -lost contact.
At first I thought that John had left one 'wife' and then married another but then I found the two Johns in 1871 (from memory).
However, after reading this I now realise I was following a completely different John and Elizabeth (from Frome) ::)
Reading this today, are you just raising the question of the two Johns and Moses?
The IGI entries are submissions- so someone has presumably put two and two together and decided that John who married Elizabeth is the son of Moses.
Downton (Moses and John) is only 5 miles away from Britford (your John) on google map.
There are a few Dredges born Britford in 1851 and 1841 censuses. Family Search has some of these born to Charles and Mary with baptisms in Salisbury (Wesleyan).
There is also a Peter Dredge, carpenter with a daughter Hannah who is born around 1815. I notice your John is a carpenter.
Unfortunately, the baptism for Hannah, daughter of Peter is a submission on IGI so no help there.
Have you tried accessing the Britford Parish records at all?
best wishes
heywood
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There is a John DREDGE, son of Joseph & Sarah, baptised at Downton, South Street Chapel (Baptist) on 8 March 1818.
Nigel
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I am getting confused here Nigel ???
I was thinking John wasn't born Downton but Britford ... or am I on the wrong track altogether ::)
heywood
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Hi Heywood,
There is plenty of scope for confusion here! ::)
The John Dredge who married Elizabeth Stone is consistently indicated as born in Britford in all of the censuses up to 1871. However, this does not necessarily mean that he was baptised in Britford. Downton is a neighbouring parish and I have ancestors who were born in Britford and baptised in Downton.
As matters stand the birth / baptism issue for the John Dredge who married Elizabeth Stone is confusing. There is a baptism for a John Dredge on 1 June 1817 in Downton and who is the son of Moses and Anne. From the ages in the Census entries this may be the correct entry.
The Census entries suggest that the above baptism is not for the John Dredge born in Redlynch (Downton) and who married Caroline Penn because this John Dredge was born between 1819 and 1821.
There is also a John Dredge baptised at the Baptist Chapel in Downton on 8 March 1818 which doesn't appear to fit well with the Census entries although it cannot be eliminated at present for the marriage of the John Dredge to Elizabeth Stone.
Finally, the baptism records for Britford are not in the IGI and there could, therefore, be a relevant baptism (or baptisms) in Britford.
I may have an opportunity to visit the WRO tomorrow although this may not help because it won't have the marriage in 1837 in Wincanton.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel and Heywood
I know that birth dates are not set in stone and ages on census dates can vary.
I have not , unfortunately, seen any birth or marriage certificates at this time.
The only thing that keeps me thinking that Moses is not his father is that he has only one son by the name of John, who was born about 1817-1820,and married Caroline Penn.
My GGG Grandfathers name is Thomas Stone Dredge (sometimes written Thommas)
Births Sep 1842
Dredge Thomas Stone Alderbury 8 227
His father is John Dredge
In the 1841 census he is down as being born Wilts.
All of Moses Dredges family are born Downton.
Another troubling thing is that 2 of Moses Dredges sons are down as dying on the same date.
John Dredge and Thomas Dredge. Both 22 April 1877.There was a 3rd son on that day too but then I found a different date for him.
Thank you Heywood for saying that 2 + 2 = 5 on this one. My thoughts exactly.
How could I get hold of Britford Parish records?
I live in Cheshire
As you say this is a confusing one !
Many thanks again
Jane
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Hi Jane,
I have sent you a PM about Britford.
Moses does appear to have only one son John. However, based on the current evidence and without having seen the marriage certificate I am not sure why you believe Moses is the father of the John Dredge who married Caroline Penn.
Nigel
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Hi Nigel
John Dredge
Born 8 Jun 1817 - Downton, Wilts (Wiltshire)
Died 22 Apr 1877 - Wilts (Wiltshire)
Married 14 Jan 1850 - Downton, Wilts (Wiltshire)
Spouse Caroline Penn
Parents Moses Dredge and Anne Nicholas
This is on a public member tree on Ancestry
Jane
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Goodmorning,
I've just come to this early and haven't checked Ancestry but Trees on there are often totally fictitious in that people seem to spot a name and claim it. You could perhaps contact the person but also look to see what evidence they show to support the claim.
However, Jane I don't quite understand re the deaths. You will know when your John died - surely that certificate would show the date and hopefully something which would indicate which John (married to either Caroline or Elizabeth). I know it wouldn't necessarily give the spouse but it would give a clue re address and perhaps the informant ???
heywood
PS
just realised that you can get the Dredge/Caroline Penn marriage certificate and that would confirm that Moses is the father so he could then be eliminated from this particular scenario. Even if that family is not yours it may be worth getting the certificate just to prove/disprove this.
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Thought I'd have a quick check - can't see John and Caroline in 1871 but they are in 1881 census -John born Redlynch. So, if this is them, he is not the one who dies in 1877. In fact, John and caroline seem to be in 1901 census.
Have checked Ancestry Family Tree - there are no historical records to verify the claims.
However, after reading over this- am not sure whether Jane, you are undecided about Moses and John or whether you believe that Moses is your John's father :-\
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Hi Heywood :)
I believe that Moses is not my Johns Father.
I have looked at a family tree of my second cousin and hers stops at John Dredge.
I have emailed her to see if she has any information on this, but as she is in Canada, she may not have the mail yet.
Jane
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Hi Jane,
I was able to visit the WRO earlier this afternoon to look at relevant original records.
The marriage between John Dredge and Caroline Penn was by Banns on 14 January 1850 in Downton. John was a bachelor and labourer of Redlynch. Caroline was a spinster of Charlton. The fathers of the Groom and Bride are incorrectly reversed in the certificate but are Moses Dredge, labourer and John Penn, labourer. Both parties left their mark and the wedding was witnessed by Sarah Dredge (her mark) and Henry (looked like Eldridge but I cannot be certain).
Moses is, therefore, not the father of the John Dredge who married Elizabeth Stone. The LDS entry is, therefore, incorrect.
Moving on to Britford I found the following baptism:
4 Jan 1818 - John son of Peter & Ann Dredge, Britford, carpenter
Peter and Ann would, therefore, appear to be the parents of the John Dredge who married Elizabeth Stone bearing in mind the census entries give John's place of birth as Britford. This baptism, therefore, appears to be what you require for your tree. There were no other John Dredges baptised in Britford in the period 1795 - 1825.
I noted the following additional baptisms in Britford of children for Peter and Ann:
24 Feb 1805 - Mary Anne
19 Apr 1807 - Elizabeth
19 Jan 1812 - Peter
24 Sep 1815 - Hannah (privately baptised on 6 Oct 1814 - father's occupation given as carpenter)
The records for Britford prior to 1812 are not easy to read and follow. I may, therefore, have missed a child. However, there was no obvious baptism in the period 1807 - 1812.
I didn't have a lot of time but did, however, also note the following baptisms for Britford:
14 Aug 1842 - Thomas Stone son of John & Elizabeth Dredge, Britford, carpenter
30 Jun 1844 - Ann White dter of John & Elizabeth Dredge, Britford, carpenter
19 Sep 1847 - Eliza Pitt dter of John & Elizabeth Dredge, Britford, carpenter
Being short of time I was only able to quickly glance at the Burials but did note the following:
6 Apr 1839 - Anne Dredge, Britford, aged 63 (presumably the wife of Peter)
3 Dec 1809 - Elizabeth Dredge (identified as dter of Peter & Ann)
From the GRO records Peter Dredge may have died in 1854 (GRO: 5a 132 Alderbury Jun 1854).
I haven't been able so far to find the marriage for Peter Dredge and Ann(e).
I hope the above information is helpful.
Nigel
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Nigel- how kind of you and that looks good.
It does add to my theory that Peter was a possible- both carpenters.
He is in 1841 census -transcribed as 'Bredge' and in 1851 as Dredge- born Hampshire.
I also think that someone has a submission on Family Search for him which gives a surname for Ann but whether it is right or not :-\
heywood
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Hi Heywood,
Just corrected and added to my previous post. The baptisms for John and Hannah both specifically identified Peter as being a carpenter. There was no occupation given for Peter in the earlier entries.
Nigel
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Hiya Nigel :)
I cant thank you enough for your time and the information you have given to me.
The information I had didn't seem to be right, as regards to Moses, and now, thanks to you, it has given clarity to this.
I think you are correct in saying that Henry Eldridge was a witness for the marriage of John Dredge and Caroline Penn, as during my research, he did marry a Sarah Dredge b 9 may 1824 on 14 April 1846, Downton.
It has been a muddle, I think, and 2 families have been joined, incorrectly.
But, Hey Ho, its a bit of a journey for us all.
I thank you for your kindness
But as the saying goes
I'll be back !
Many thanks Jane
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Hi Jane,
It is clear now that a Peter and Ann(e) Dredge are the parents of your John Dredge. However, a bit more searching is required for their marriage and baptisms / births. Their marriage does not appear to have been in Britford and with Peter having been born in Hampshire (at least according to the 1851 Census) the marriage may perhaps have been in that county. At present I have no clues as to Ann(e)'s maiden name or place of baptism / birth.
Peter's daughter Hannah Dredge married Mark Downer in 1848 (GRO: 8 449 Alderbury Dec 1848).
I was interested to see in the 1851 Census that Peter Dredge was living next door to my Musselwhite relatives in Britford!
Nigel
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My research confirms all the material supplied by Nigel re origins of John Dredge and family. John Dredge and Elizabeth Stone were married Wincanton January 1837. Two sons, James and Harry, were born in Wincanton, 1839 and 1840 respectively. Other children born Britford as described by Nigel.
Also William Roland Dredge born March 1857, East Harnham but baptised Britford, is their son.
Ann White Dredge appears to have been named for her paternal grandmother.
I have more information on James Dredge ,son of John and Elizabeth. He emigrated to New Zealand in 1874 with wife and 2 sons.
re Peter and Ann Dredge.
Peter Dredge born c. 1774 said to have married Ann White of Odstock, Wilts c. 1796. Place unknown.
James Dredge, son of Peter and Ann born c. 1796 possibly Britford. This James emigrated to Australia in 1838 and became a Protector of Aborigines (see on-line article by Rhonda Dredge, original held in State Library of Victoria).
Also-2 burials in Britford
Peter Dredge son of Peter and Ann buried june 1 1803
Joseph Dredge son of Peter and Ann buried Feb 13 1804
Ages and birthplace unknown for these 2. Could be born Britford as register very difficult to read.
Other children as described by Nigel.
I have a copy of the death certificate of Peter Dredge died Alderbury 1854. The informant is Mark Downer, son-in-law, Hannah's husband, confirming that this Peter is her father and therefore father of John.
Incidentally, Hannah Downer nee Dredge married Alexander Redman March 1878 after Mark Downer died in 1872.
The IGI has some incorrect information. Eliza Pitt Dredge, daughter of John and Elizabeth, is listed as Elizabeth, chr 19 Sept 1847., Britford. The Britford register clearly shows Pitt.
Also the IGI has Peter Dredge marrying Mary Ann Waeff. Her surname in Britford register is Wooff. I presume this is Peter born 1812, son of Peter and Ann.
Does anyone have a line for Harry Dredge born c. 1866, son of Thomas Stone Dredge and Betsey Parker? I have losr him.
Also looking for William Roland Dredge, son of John and Elizabeth b. East Harnham 1857. Last found by me in 1871 census at home aged 14.
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Hi
You have given me lots of information
Harry Dredge born c. 1866, son of Thomas Stone Dredge and Betsey Parker, is my G grandfather.
Jane
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Hi Jane
It's amazing that you are g grandaughter of Harry Dredge. I found a Harry Dredge in 1891 England census. He was a visitor at 29 Royal Avenue, Chelsea, London, and a curate at St Luke's Redcliffe Square, Kensington. I thought this might be him even though the age is wrong. Do you know if he is the right one?
Harry obviously has a line to follow but I have been unable to find a marriage as yet. Can you point me in the right direction?
Jeanteen
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Hi Jeanteen
As far as I know Harry Dredge was in the Navy (1901)
He married my G Grandmother in 1896
Is this Harry, the one you are looking for?
Jane
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Hi Jane
I found Harry Dredge born 1866 on HMS Hotspur in Bermuda in 1901 census but had discounted him originally as his birthplace is given as Devizes which is not correct. However, if he was in the Royal Navy this must be him.
In 1911 census Harry Dredge born 1866 is living at Blandford in Dorset. On the same page there is an Olivia Caroline Dredge born 1871. Free BMD gives me a marriage for Harry Dredge Salisbury March 1896 with Olivia Caroline Brown on the same page so I presume this is his wife and your great grandmother.
I could not identify their children in 1911 as there seemed to be another Dredge family there too. I did not find Olivia in 1901. Perhaps she was in Bermuda also?
Jeanteen
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Hi Jeanteen
The 1901 census has Olivia as being Olive.....
Lol
Annie Dredge is my Gran
Olive Dredge
abt 1872 Charlton, Wiltshire, England Head Milford, Wiltshire
Horace Brown Dredge Olive abt 1891 Milford; Salisbury, Wiltshire, England Son Milford, Wiltshire
Dora Dredge Olive abt 1897 Salisbury, Wiltshire, England Daughter Milford, Wiltshire
Edith Dredge Olive abt 1899 Milford; Salisbury, Wiltshire, England Daughter Milford, Wiltshire
Annie Dredge Olive abt 1900 Milford; Salisbury, Wiltshire, England Daughter Milford, Wiltshire
In 1911 they are living at Blandford in Dorset
Horace Frank Brown Dredge is in the military in Wiltshire
Jane
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Hi Jane
Many thanks for family of Harry Dredge. I found them in 1901 using Olive.
My husband's grandmother was Edith Annie Dredge, daughter of James Dredge who was son of John Dredge and Elizabeth Stone. I guess that makes her cousin to your Harry.
Her family also had a Harry , a James and a Roland John .
Do you have any info on daughters of John Dredge and Elizabeth Stone? I have only
Eliza Pitt Dredge married Robert Hoskins, Weymouth, June 1869
Ann White Dredge married William Henry Broad, Alderbury, June 1869
jeanteen
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Hi jeanteen
Do I have the right person?
Edith Dredge About 1875 Ravensbourne, Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
Father JAMES DREDGE
Mother CAROLINE GERTRUDE TOWNSEND
Jane
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Hi Jane
Yes you do have the right person. Actual date of birth is 19 November 1879. Edith married Frank Sargent Huggins 28 June 1905 in Dunedin and died 10 august 1962 in Palmerston North, New Zealand.
Do you have any leads on other children of John Dredge and Elizabeth Stone?
jeanteen
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HI
I have John Dredge and Elizabeth Stone in my Family Tree. Elizabeth came from Portland in Dorset. John Dredge born in Britford, Wiltshire. They had six children, Thomas Stone Dredge, William, Anne, Harry, Eliza and James. Moses and Anne were John's parents and Robert and Anne (White) were Elizabeth's parents. Thomas Stone Dredge m. Elizabeth (Betsey) Parker, their daughter Edith Parker Dredge was my great grandmother. Hope this helps!
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Hi
Are you saying that Moses Dredge and Anne Micholas or Nicholas are the parents of John Dredge?
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Hi fairydust
If you read the previous postings you will see it has been pretty clearly established that JOHN DREDGE'S father was PETER DREDGE who was married to ANN. This Ann may be the daughter of George and Hannah White of Odstock, Wiltshire. Her baptism was 26 Dec 1775.
It is really neat to have another descendant join the discussion. Thomas and Betsey did well!
Do you have any clues about what happened to
1)Ann White Dredge who married William Henry Broad in 1869
2)Eliza Pitt Dredge who married Robert Hoskins in 1869
3) William Roland Dredge whom I did not find after 1871 when he was 14 but neither could I find a death for him
Jeanteen
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Hi
I've no idea what happened to any of them. I know Betsey must have left Thomas because she appears in Hampshire in 1901 and is a cook, she died in 1906 (I think). Thomas died in Salisbury in 1902 with one of his children living with him.
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Hello fairydust good to have you back,
as you can see there is a lot of work here re John Dredge's parents which differ to your post.
What evidence are you using for John's parents being Moses and Ann?
kind regards
heywood :)
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I've gone back through and I agree with you that it is Peter and Ann but can't find out much info about them.
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Thank you - that's a bit of good news anyway. The family are nothing to do with me but my heart sank when I saw your post- I do recall the hours of research we did. ;)
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many thanks for pointing me in the right direction! :)