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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: kathb on Monday 02 November 09 10:43 GMT (UK)
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Please can anyone give me any advice on trying to sort out this conundrum?
Joseph Lewis born Helsby 1777 married Mary Okell at Great Budworth in 1807
The IGI and verified in the Parish Register shows the following offspring
Samuel born 1808
Robert born 1810 (my ggg grandfather)
Mary born 1812
On the 1841 Samuel and Robert are residing in Rushton and Spurstow respectively
I know that Samuel went on to be the Inn Keeper of the Alvanley Arms (and this shows on the current website of this hostelry, later census and his Will). It also shows that Joseph Lewis was the publican in 1822 – I have verified this with the licence from Cheshire Archives and Record Office.
On the 1841 census as a publican, Coat Brook, Rushton, (ages rounded down) there is:
Mary 25, Ann 25, Margaret 20, Sarah 15, Frances 15, John 15, Richard 14
Initially I wondered if this was more of the same family, given the name Mary and the connection with Coat Brook (Cotebrook) later on.
However the Parish Register for Tarporley St.Helens shows the following:
Joseph son of Joseph and Mary Oct 28th 1813 father Inn Keeper, Coat Brook
Ann daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth 1st March 1815 father Inn Keeper, Coat Brook
Margaret daughter of Joseph and Elizabeth 13th September 1816, father Inn Keeper Coat Brook
Elizabeth daughter of Joseph and Mary 15th March 1817 father Inn Keeper Coat Brook
Fanny and Sarah daughters of Joseph and Elizabeth 14th March 1826, father Inn Keeper Coat Brook
John son of Joseph and Elizabeth 14th March 1826, father Inn Keeper Coat Brook
The pub website states that Samuel was a cousin of Joseph. However my Samuel was a son of a Joseph.
There was only one pub in the hamlet. Joseph senior did not remarry. Mary his wife died 9th June 1831 aged 40, Joseph died 23rd October 1840 aged 63.
There is with out doubt a strong family connection here for the following reasons:
Margaret had a son Samuel Lewis Edwards, who was brought up at the pub and spent the whole of his life there with Samuel Lewis the Inn Keeper and later his widow and then his son.
Census data shows Frances Franks (nee Lewis) also resided at the pub in 1851 and also a John Lewis. These are siblings of Margaret.
So, would there be two Joseph’s related but both described as running the pub as one Joseph is married to a Mary and the other to an Elizabeth? I did initially wonder if Joseph had married twice, but as you can see from the dates Mary was alive until 1831. The timing of the childrens births makes it very difficult to believe that the curate/vicar got the name of the mother wrong and certainly not on several occasions. I then wondered if my Joseph was the father of the second Joseph, but he names a son Joseph in 1813.
Ideas welcome.
Thanks
Kathb
P.S. I did wonder if Joseph senior (1777) might have been married before Mary as he would have been 30 when he married her. Can anyone see any possible first marriage possibly Frodsham but could also be Cheshire?
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Hi kathb,
Phew, I see your problem. Just spent a while checking various options. :-\
Do you think you have 2 families mixed together?
In my family tree I have a publican listed in 1841 census. I found out she didn't have a pub as such, she was listed as a beerseller in the Chester trade directory. A lot of people opened up their own homes as inns at that time in Chester.
Just a thought, maybe your 1841 with Mary, Ann, Margaret, Sarah Frances and John(triplets?) Richard, are a different family to the one you are tracing.
I found a Joseph Lewis married Elizabeth Chesters 1823 Malpas.
Another Joseph married Elizabeth Sidlow 1800 Bebington?
Also your Joseph and Mary Okell with children Mary, Robert, Sam all bFrodsham.
I hope I haven't confused you further.
Good luck with it.
Jean
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Jean, thanks for spending time on this.
on the 1841 they are all in the same household, although not the same family as the baptisms show different mothers there is obviously some strong family connection here. The three baptisms were on the same day, but some families did have the children baptised as a 'job lot'. I also have found the marriages that you did. I have ruled out the Eliz Chesters as a mother as the majority of these births are pre- 1823. I haven't followed up on the Eliz Sidlow marriage but will look next time I am in the Record office. Its one of those puzzles that will take some time. Frances also shows on her marriage certificate of 1841 that her father is Joseph Lewis, Inn Keeper. It does look as if there are two Joseph's who are related for Samuel to 'take in' the son of Margaret and give a job to John. He later on gives a job to my GG Uncle William so this again proves the families are interlinked in some way. I am going to try to see if I can find if Joseph seniors father Richard had a siblings or nephews with the name Joseph. I am fast running out of options.
Once again thank you for your time I really appreciate any ideas Rootschatters may have.
Regards
Kathb
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After taking another look, it has certainly got me foxed. ???
The day to day running of the Alvanley would need a lot of staff, so I guess they would keep it in the family. I had a peek at the history to see if it helped, it is intriguing isn't it?
I would be interested to know the outcome, these family knots take some fathoming.
I'm sure someone on RC will be able to unravel it for you.
Jean
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thanks Jean, there has to be an answer here somewhere. I am hoping someone has more lateral thinking than me and can give me some new clues or hints of were to look.
Thanks for your time and interest
Regards
Kathb
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On the 1851 census Samuel is still at Coat Brook, Rushton aged 43, a farmer of 3 acres, born Helsby with his wife Alice 42, born Rushton also present is a John Lewis 30, servant(farm labourer), born Rushton.
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Thanks Genehunter, I have all of the census and bmd records, I just can't find the link with the two Joseph's
Regards
Kathb
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It is like one of those horrid maths problems that they used to give us for "fun" in the last week of term!!
I just have a load of questions I am afraid:
1. Do you know who was named on Joseph's death (1840) certificate?
2. Is it certain that Mary who took over the pub 1840-43 was the daughter of Joseph who had it previously? Is that recorded on the licence, a will, or what?
3. How reliable is the information that Samuel was a cousin? Cousin of whom?
Just wondering, if the pub was run by Joseph-married-to-Elizabeth and when he died his sons were too young to take it on so it passed to the care of Samuel (a cousin) who had enough doing with his farm so had his sister Mary step in as landlady, then when she married Samuel took it on.
Is there no will from Joseph anywhere?
Are there any estate records which list all the tenants and give two Josephs? that is the tricky bit isn't it? Two of them both innkeepers in the same tiny place!
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Hi, Gardener, yes it is like one of those maths problems and I was never any good at maths.
You have however made me think at bit more outside the box. I will send for the death cert of Joseph died 1840. The parish records show he was aged 63 so born 1777 which fits as father of Samuel.
I think your idea of the pub passing to Samuel is quite pertinent. I can't find a Will for a Joseph death that fits. I really need to find a marriage for a Joseph and Elizabeth which fits with the younger children at the Inn. This might then lead me back to the parents of Joseph number 2 and how this connects with Joseph number 1.
I am at the Record Office in Chester tomorrow and will continue my search through the parish records to see what I can find. Thanks for your time on this and giving me some more questions to pursue. I will let everyone know if I find any more information.
Regards
Kathb
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There are two marriages that may be of interest
Joseph Lewis = Elizabeth Sibley 31/03/1800, Bebbington, St. Andrew both otp by licence Wit. John Sibley, Margaret Davies
Joseph Lewis = Elizabeth Chesters 23/10/1823, Malpas, St. Oswald
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There is also
Joseph Lewis = Martha Brookes 15/7/1798, Bunbury
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Hi, Genehunter, just back from the Registrars Office having ordered Joseph Lewis died 1840 death certificate. I will look up the marriages that you have found at the Chester Records and Archives tomorrow.
What is really throwing me with this conundrum is the two Joseph Lewis Inn Keepers in the same vicinity with all of their offspring living in the same pub in 1841.
On several of the census data Samuel obviously gives jobs to the offspring of Joseph and Elizabeth although he is the son of Joseph and Mary.
Another thought I had was that maybe (and its a very big longshot here) is that Mary had another name being Elizabeth. Something that I did not note when I transcribed the parish registers was whether it was the same minister who recorded all of the births. I am going to recheck this tomorrow. If they were say- the curate recorded the births of Joseph and Elizabeth's children and the vicar recorded the births of Joseph and Mary's children (or vice versa) this could be a 'clerical error' - sorry for the pun.
Unfortunately for me Mary Lewis nee Okell, died before civil registration and the parish records do not state the husband. I need to locate her birth. If she is the one I picked up on the IGI she may be the one born 1790. I need to see if her baptism record on the parish records shows any other names.
This really is a wonderful puzzle, which I am determined to crack.
I will also look again at the quarter session records to see if I can find more than one licence issued to a Joseph Lewis in the vicinity. I found the one Joseph in 1822 quite near the top of the records and if I had my thinking hat on would have continued to look through all of them for that year.
Do you know if civil registration marriage certificates always showed if the father of the bride was deceased? The ones I have for Margaret and Frances both state Joseph Inn Keeper and don't show him as deceased. Frances marriage was in 1841 and Margaret in 1849. This could help in my search. If their father Joseph was still alive on these dates it might help in the search and completely rule out Joseph who died in 1840 as their father.
Any help very much appreciated.
Regards
Kathb
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Hi,
The Joseph and Martha of Bunbury can be eiminated, they lived and died in Bunbury. The father of the bride or groom on marriage certificates if dead is not always registered as such.
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Hi, Genehunter, I am still on the search. I will let Rootschatters know any results I find after my search tommorrow at the Cheshire Archives/Record office
Regards
Kathb
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Hello to all the Rootschatters who are trying to help me on this.
Just to update you
Yesterday I searched all of the Tarporley St Helens registers for all the Lewis's and noted them all - a mere 5 hours! On the film I found a 'notebook' completed by the vicar. In this he states that the parents of Joseph born 1813 are noted as Joseph and Elizabeth but on the registers noted as Joseph and Mary. However all of the births are written in the register by the curate, so who is right?
I also rechecked who had recorded all of the births and it was the same curate.
I could not find a marriage for a Joseph and Elizabeth in Tarporley so need to widen the search - now going to try Little Budworth on my next visit to the archives in two weeks.
I know that there is a Joseph Lewis on the Tithe Maps of Cheshire who had quite large farm tenancies, which of the Joseph's he is I don't know. I am now going to send for the Wills of all of the Joseph Lewis's regardless of year of death in the hope that there may a clue in them somewhere.
I also could not find a marriage for any of the girls (other than the ones for Frances and Margaret - of which I have copies of their Marriage Certificates) again I need to widen the search.
I couldn't find Burial records for Mary and Sarah either.
I checked the Aston Parish Register for the birth of Mary Okell wife of Joseph number 1 and she does not have another name recorded so I don't thinks she was ever known as Elizabeth.
The marriage of Joseph with Elizabeth Chesters in Malpas in 1823 doesn't help much at the moment. It does show that this Joseph was of the parish of marbury.
I now await the copy of Joseph Lewis (number 1) Death Cert to see if that sheds any light on this conundrum.
P.S this is not a hobby it is an obssession!!!
Regards and thanks for all of the help.
Kathb
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Hi Kathb, thanks for keeping us informed,
I still find myself checking out the Lewis's, when my own ancestors are giving me a hard time. I notice you have Birkenhead links, did you check out the other marriage in Bebington, between a Joe and Eliza?
I know what you mean about it becoming obsessive, my ancestors are filling my thoughts ever more frequently.
Jean
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Hi, Jean, I didn't have the time yesterday to check out the Bebington link. It is on my list for my next visit in two weeks.
I really am very grateful to all of the Rootschatters for their assistance with this ever increasing puzzle.
My Birkenhead links come further on in the late 1800's but there could still be a link there and I am not ruling this one out. I have just ordered three Wills of Joseph Lewis's from 1770 to 1850. I hope that one of the three might give me some clues.
I will keep everyone updated with how I am getting on in the hope that my deliberations may help others.
Regards
Kathb
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Death Certificate for Joseph Lewis (number 1) shows the following:
Where and when died, 20th October 1840 at Rushton, name and surname, Joseph Lewis Male 63 years Occupation: Farmer and Inn Keeper, Cause of Death: Decay of Nature Signature, Description and residence of Informant: Mary Lewis in attendance Rushton, When Registered: Third of November 1840.
This again fits with 'my Joseph' (number 1) as he was born in 1777. Mary I am sure is his daughter and the eldest family member shown on the 1841 census when she is described as publican.
I still do not have any absolute proof that there are two Joseph's here other than the parish records showing a wife named Elizabeth of those children younger than Mary on this census, (other than Elizabeth). The parish records show her as the daughter of Joseph and Mary b: 1817. As stated in my previous posts as the curate got one of the parental names wrong in transcribing from the Vicars notebook did he get most of them wrong?
I also found the baptism of John which is 19/8/1827.
Looking at the space between these baptism's shows the following:
Name birth baptism Parents recorded Joseph 28/10/1813 Both Joseph/Elizabeth and Joseph Mary
Ann 1/3/1815 23/6/1815 Joseph/Elizabeth
Margaret 1/9/1816 13/9/1816 Joseph/Elizabeth
Elizabeth 15/3/1817 10/12/1817 Joseph/Mary
Fanny, Sarah, Richard all baptised on 14/3/1826 Joseph/Elizabeth
John 19/8/1827 Joseph/Elizabeth
Given the gap between Margaret and Elizabeth of only 6 months it does look again as if there are two Joseph's.
I now feel as if I am going round in ever decreasing circles. One minute almost sure that there is only one Joseph and then there are two again.
There is no Will in Cheshire for a Joseph Lewis fitting around his death date but I have sent for all within 60 years just in case.
Has anyone any more ideas please?
Regards
Kathb
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It is highly possible that he got it wrong when transcribing it, I have a marriage certificate from Manchester Cathedral where the father's name has been put in place of the groom's name.
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Hi, Genehunter, I am really hoping that he did get it wrong and that they are all the same family. The connections are so strong with Samuel 'taking in or giving jobs' to so many of them that on looking it does seem to be the same family. I am however still not totally convinced that they are all the same family as I can't prove it conclusively. The six months between Margaret and Elizabeth's births seems to say that they are not sisters - although I can't rule out a birth at six months (which survived in those days - could be possible !) because she wasn't baptised until she would have been 9 months old. As I have only found two marriages for Margaret and Frances and not the other girls in the house I can't establish anything further at this stage. I also can't find deaths for the remaining girls, in the local church and need to widen my search for both of them. I really appreciate the help that Rootschatters are giving me on this one it is becoming like the search for the Holy Grail.
Regards and thanks
Kathb
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Have you checked the graves, that might give and indication of who is related to whom.
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Hi, Genehunter, I have had several windy and wet trips to the graveyard but could not find any stones with the Lewis last name. I will however put a post on this board and see if anyone has any knowledge of Memorial Inscriptions for Tarporley.
Thanks for your continuing interest on this, I am determined to crack this one. Thanks again
Kathb
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Given the gap between Margaret and Elizabeth of only 6 months it does look again as if there are two Joseph's.
I think it is virtually impossible that Margaret and Elizabeth could be sisters with only six months between the births. Not only would a 25/26 week baby be most unlikely to survive in those days, the mother would have had to conceive immediately after the first birth to even allow the pregnancy to last for 25 or 26 weeks. It is possible that one or both of the birth dates is recorded incorrectly of course.
The unmentioned possibility is that there was Joseph, Mary and Elizabeth living as a "menage a trois" at the pub :o :o :o
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The unmentioned possibility is that there was Joseph, Mary and Elizabeth living as a "menage a trois" at the pub :o :o :o
;D
You are being so thorough kathb!
I tried to find a Mary born Helsby in 1812 but could not see anything to fit. I expect you have tried too.
Don't suppose Samuel 's or Martha's wills say anything handy like "my best dress goes to my sister X's children"?
There is always the chance that a will of some other relative holds the key. Sometimes the spinsters leave things and name nephews and nieces but it calls for a lot of work to check them. Pity that Cheshire don't have will abstracts online :) but at least the have the will's year and deceased which is more helpful than some places.
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Hi, Gardener and alpinecottage, thanks for the ideas.
Good idea alpinecottage, menage a trois never thought of that one! Somehow I don't think they would have got within calling distance of the church for the baptism's let alone inside - but you never know!!!!
I have Samuel's Will and he leaves everything to his wife Martha and son - guess who? another Joseph.
Mary is on an extracted record on the IGI and I checked this against St Lawrence (Frodsham) parish records and it checks out Mary daughter of Joseph and Mary. I also checked the record P009731 for siblings and Samuel b:1808 and Robert b: 1810 come up with the same parents. Frodsham was the parish church for Helsby and Samuel and Robert declare on census records that they were born in Helsby.
I can't find a Mary with birth in Helsby on any later census than the 1841 so she either died or married. She is not in the parish records for St Helens Tarporley and I need to look further afield to see if I can find her.
If only another one of this family on the 1841 had left a Will life might be easier.
I notice I have a message left for my request for MI's at Tarporley, I will have a look and see if someone might have come up with something.
Thanks for you help
Regards
Kathb
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Are there any local newspapers from the time that may have reported the births/baptisms?
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Having a brainstorm,
noticed your gt gt gt grandfather was a Robert. So wondered if maybe he was named after wife Mary's, father.
I found another Mary Okell on IGI, born in Gt Budworth, where you mentioned they married. One slight difference is her age being born in 1778, that makes her 29 (nearer to Joe's age) her father was a Robert, no mother mentioned unfortunately. Perhaps worth another look see, you never know.
This doesn't help with the 2 Joe problem, sadly.
Jean
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Hello Genehunter and liverbird
I will try and see what newspapers they have at the Archives next week, good idea.
Jean, I discounted the 1778 Mary as she died aged 40 in 1831, which makes her birth approx 1790. I found a birth for Mary in Aston by Sutton and this shows her father to be Samuel. On her and Joseph (number 1) parish record of marriage one of the witnesses is shown as Samuel Okell. This is also a name they give their eldest son.
Thanks you both for your interest, I really appreciate any ideas and other avenues to pursue and thank you for the time you are spending on this trying to help me sort out the two Joseph's.
One other thought I had yesterday was that Joseph signed the marriage certificate himself. If I can find another signature from Joseph related to the pub and they are the same, I might be on a 'winner' - although I am no expert in handwriting.
Thanks again - I will keep Rootschatters updated on this as I continue the search.
Kathb
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Having a brainstorm,
noticed your gt gt gt grandfather was a Robert. So wondered if maybe he was named after wife Mary's, father.
I found another Mary Okell on IGI, born in Gt Budworth, where you mentioned they married. One slight difference is her age being born in 1778, that makes her 29 (nearer to Joe's age) her father was a Robert, no mother mentioned unfortunately. Perhaps worth another look see, you never know.
This doesn't help with the 2 Joe problem, sadly.
Jean
also a birth for Mary Okell 18th April 1783 in Davenham (6 miles from G Budworth) parents Peter and Alles (presume Alice).....on CPRDb ..doesn`t fit in with your Mary who died aged 40 though...I know this doesn`t help with Lewis`s , but as you are very thorough I thought you might like to see this...allan
ADDED...also on CPRDb
There`s a marriage 31st march 1800 between Joseph Lewis and Elizabeth Sidley...both residences as BEBIP...in the parish of Bebington..don`t know where BEBIP is?? Bebington is transcribed as BEBI...anyway...i don`t know whether this confuses matters or is a possible Joseph / Elizabeth marriage you are looking for....allan
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BEBIP is Bebbington parish.
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Thanks Garstonite and Genhunter. I think this is search is going to take some time - I will look up the Bebington marriage next week at the archives and see if this turns up anything. I am still hunting for either the deaths or marriages of the following of the girls
Mary baptised:1812
Ann baptised: 1815
Elizabeth baptised: 1818 and Sarah b: 1826
The other curiosity I have is the baptisms of the three children all recorded on the same date in 1826 namely Fanny, Sarah and John. I realise that families often had them baptised in a 'job lot' so to speak, but this is quite a gap from 1818 so they may have been a few years old when baptised.
I know from Fanny's marriage certificate of 1841 that she was 19 so she would have been born circa 1822.
Is there an elder brother somewhere named Joseph who marries an Elizabeth - this would make the younger children (on the 1841) cousins of Mary, Samuel and Robert. This brings me back to the marriage that I have for Joseph and Mary Okell which I have as 1807. I am begining to wonder if I have the wrong marriage and that there is an earlier one for a Joseph and Mary which would have produced more offspring than those I have of Mary, Samuel and Robert and allowed for an elder brother named Joseph?????
Anymore ideas Rootchatters please?
Regards
Kathb
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Hi, Rootschatters, I think I have now traced Joseph born 1813. I will send for his marriage certificate to see if he also states his father was Joseph Inn Keeper. I have looked at my notes again and this is another birth which shows in the ministers notes as mother Mary and then when entered in the 1813 register shows as mother Elizabeth.
I also re-visited the census data for Samuel Lewis and the child 'he took in' and he is described as Samuel Lewis Edwards nephew throughout his life. He also in his Will leaves all of his assests to Samuel Lewis's children who he describes as cousins. I have copies of Samuel Lewis Edwards birth cert and the marriage of his mother Margaret. the age of Margaret on her marriage certificate matches with Margaret shown on the Parish register as born 1816 but is recorded with the parents Joseph and Elizabeth. Margaret shows her father as Joseph Inn Keeper.
SO ROOTSCHATTER - should I be brave enough to decide that this family on the 1841 census are all siblings. I know that the short gap in baptisms of Margaret and Elizabeth, appears to short, but the baptisms could be late.
Help what do you all think? I really do want to cross reference all of this and not leave my descendants with any doubt.
Ideas again welcome.
Regards
Kathb
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Hi Kathb,
Just had a quick look through this thread, the mention of the dreaded LEWIS surname put me off initially! ;D
Who, where and when do you think Joseph 1813 married? Or have I missed it....
Jean
PS. Also have some LEWIS's in the Frodsham area, had married a daughter off and chased the family through the census records only to find that she had died aged 9!
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The age of Margaret on her marriage certificate matches with Margaret shown on the Parish register as born 1816 but is recorded with the parents Joseph and Elizabeth. Margaret shows her father as Joseph Inn Keeper.
SO ROOTSCHATTER - should I be brave enough to decide that this family on the 1841 census are all siblings. I know that the short gap in baptisms of Margaret and Elizabeth, appears to short, but the baptisms could be late.
But you had the following:
Margaret 1/9/1816 13/9/1816 Joseph/Elizabeth
Elizabeth 15/3/1817 10/12/1817 Joseph/Mary
so you can't argue late baptism can you? The problem is that the births are only 6 1/2months apart which is really not on. You would have to argue that Elizabeth's birth month was wrong :-(
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Hello Gardener and Jean
I know this gap between Margaret and Elizabeth seems to continually link to their being two Joseph's I am clutching at straws here aren't I.
Gardener I think you are absolutely correct in that the only way there could be only one Joseph and the transcriptions are saying Elizabeth when I want them to be Mary is that the month of birth is incorrectly recorded.
Jean, the Joseph I have picked up is via census data.
In 1841 there is a Joseph in Goostrey aged 27 gamekeeper, with Charlotte aged 25 and a William aged 1 all born in county
I then followed up on the 51 and found them still in Goostrey and Joseph gives place of birth as Tarporley.
On Cheshire BMD and matched on Freebmd, there is a marriage for Joseph and Charlotte (Wood)in 1840 at St Mary's Sandbach.
On the 61, they are in Knutton, Staffordshire and Joseph (aged 47)describes his birth place as Tarporley again
On the 71 Joseph (aged 57)describes his birthplace as Cotebrook. This is what makes me think he is 'my Joseph' of 1813 birth.
I have sent for the marriage certificate - although once again I might get father Joseph Innkeeper.
I am going to the Cheshire Archives again on Thursday and will go back to the ministers notebook and see if I can find any explanation why these births have recorded in the notebook mother mary and then on the 1813 Rose type register Elizabeth. I need to look carefully at the notebook again as I am sure that the writing in this was different than that in the 1813 Rose type register. The entries in the Rose Type register are all by the Curate.
I really appreciate all of your help.
The search continues
Regards
Kathb
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Hi Kathb,
There is a will for Samuel LEWIS of Rushton, Cotebrook - Innkeeper proved in 1867. Sorry if this has already been posted.
Hmm, a quick glance back through the thread suggest that you already have this. Have you thought about looking at other earlier Lewis wills from the areas you know about? - for example, Robert LEWIS, Helsby, yeoman, 1806. You can look at them while you are at the Records Office.
I'll have a look through my LEWIS'S for clues!
Jean
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Jean, thank you for your time on this it is very much appreciated. I have sent for all of the Joseph Lewis Wills within a 60year period fortunately there are only three.
Other than Samuel none of Joseph's offspring have left a Will. Shucks!!
I think the best way forward is for me to transcribe all of the Lewis births, marriages and burials for St Helens, Tarporley and Little Budworth. Fortunately the Bunbury ones came on line a few weeks ago as you know. I could then start to try and piece some semblance of order to it all.
Of course this does not rule out BMD's elsewhere. I put a post on the Cheshire Board hoping that someone may have collected the memorial inscriptions for Tarporley, but no response as yet.
The continual block in this conundrum is the descrepancy with the old style notes of the minister and the obvious transcription of the curate into the 1813 Rose Index. The minister seems to record Joseph and Mary as parents and then the curate records Joseph and Elizabeth. I will revisit this next week.
I will follow your recommendation of looking at earlier Lewis Wills.
I also appreciate your offer of looking at the information you have on the Lewis line.
I really appreciate the interest being shown by Rootschatters in this conundrum. The more the merrier as far as I am concerned.
Regards and Thanks again
Kathb
Just a little post script here, we are extremely fortunate in Cheshire that we have the services of the Cheshire Archives. Not only are they forward thinking enough to put the Wills on line, but the Tithe Maps are a fantastic resource. Not counting the fantastic staff who are the most patient and helpful people I have met - their customer service is superb.
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Hi kathb,
Just another thought, don't rule out wills of unmarried females or widows - these can be the most productive of all.
I have one that finally cracked my line, where the testator (unmarried female) names 63 separate people, most described as "cousin". Needed a separate spreadsheet just to work it all out, but it broke down some very longstanding brick walls.
Jean
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Thanks Jean, I will trawl the Wills site again and see which other Lewis persons I can pick up.
I have just opened the envelope with the three Wills I sent for so its down to some interesting and hopefully productive reading tonight.
Thank you once again for your assistance and expert help.
Regards
Kathb
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Hi kathb,
I'd be interested in what is in the Lewis wills that you have - eventually we will connect all these Lewis's!!
Jean
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Hello Jean, I do hope we can connect these Lewis's they are giving me one heck of a brickwall. I didn't get the chance last night to read through the the Wills, but will certainly let you know what I find in them. I went to the Cheshire Archives today and have started transcribing the parish records for the Lewis's.
I am off there again tomorrow to do some more.
Regards and thanks for your continuing interest in this conundrum
Kathb
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Hi, Rootschatters, I have now checked the Bishops Transcripts and they also show the parents of Joseph and Elizabeth as Joseph and Mary. I am now claiming them as MINE! :D
Finding the connection with Ann, Margaret, Sarah Fanny, John and Richard will take some considerable time. I will update you if I break down the wall,
Regards
Kathb
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I hesitate to re-open this conundrum, but recognised some names and places in your posts which could link with mine.
My Lewises were from the villages round Delamere Forest .
I've only managed to get back as far as Samuel Lewis, born Little Budworth c1830. He went on to live in Norley for most of his life.
There were 2 of that name in Norley, about 2 years apart in age. One married Eliza Humphreys and the other(mine) married Elizabeth Hughes.
According to Sam's marriage certificate (1858), his father Robert was deceased. I have been unable to trace him.
On the 1841 census a Samuel Lewis aged 11 was living in Crowton with Joseph Lewis (agric lab) and wife Sarah. I wonder if he had been orphaned and perhaps Joseph was his uncle.By 1851 I think I've found him working as servant to Elizabeth Lewis, widow,73, farmer of 14 acres in Norley. Was she a great- aunt or grandmother, I wonder?
They were all small-time farmers or farm labourers, though I believe that one Samuel Lewis was the first licensee of the Tiger's Head Inn in Norley. My Sam and Elizabeth went on to have 2 sons, Robert and Henry. Any help locating Robert senior would be welcome.
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Hi, Jill, JDGen is also intersted in the Lewis's and it may be that she can make a connection with your branch. I am still stuck with this conundrum and need to do lots more research at the Cheshire Archives to see if I can find any more information to sort out the connections.
Regards
Kathb