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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: clarah on Sunday 01 November 09 20:29 GMT (UK)

Title: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: clarah on Sunday 01 November 09 20:29 GMT (UK)
I am still trying to piece together my ggrandfathers record. I have just found a photo of him in uniform and confirmed that he was seargent in the RMF (I previously posted under RMF on this).

If he was in the Curragh in October 1916 and away for next two years, what batallion may he have been in?

Also is the only way to get service record to go to Kew to access archives? With his DOB etc. is it not possible to find out info any other way?
I got some info re medals on national archives about a Thomas Murphy who may or may not be him.
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: nobeard on Tuesday 15 December 09 04:52 GMT (UK)
This page may be helpful to you, it's very concise & easy to follow. Check out the 5th battalion, the text tallies with your info.

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Royal-Munster-Fusiliers

The National Archives have digitised a lot of the WW1 war diaries & they can be downloaded (costs £3.50 i believe), but of course you need to know exactly which Battalion you're looking for & which date.
Good luck.
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: corisande on Tuesday 15 December 09 13:28 GMT (UK)
There were 8 "Thomas Murphy" in the RMF

Of the 8  Medal Card Index (and it is to all intents and purposes a complete record) men with this name on the MIC , only one is listed as a sergeant (there is a corporal as well, and possibly him as many men had temp or acting ranks in WW1)

Of the 8 Thomas Murphy in the RMF, 4 are listed as killed in CMGC (they are all listed as Privates)

The sergeant on the MIC is 3974 Sgt Thomas Murphy. He went to France in Dec 1915 (from memory that would have to be with 2nd battalion, as 1st was in Gallipoli, and I do not think any other RMF were in action at that time in France), but it is entirely consistent that a man might return to Dublin, perhaps wounded, and spend a while training new men there, before being sent back to an active role.

That man did not get the SWB, so the implication is that he survived the war without being invalided out.

If he was sent abroad in 1916 it would have been either to the Middle East with the New Army Munster battalions, or to France with the 1st or 2nd battalion.

The service record for the above Thomas does not survive (you can check Ancestry records)

My feeling is that you need more family info to get any further. Basically each battalion acted as its own little regiment, so to know the battalion is essential in order to know where he served.

Does nobody in the family possess for example the actual medals. Did he get any gallantry awards - in which case the citation would/could tell you where he was at that time.

One needs a fair amount of persistence to track these things down!
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: jds1949 on Tuesday 15 December 09 15:03 GMT (UK)
Also worth checking if he got married or registered the birth of a child during the time he served, quite often the certificate will list full service details,

jds1949
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: clarah on Thursday 17 December 09 18:45 GMT (UK)
Unfortunately due to the death of my great grandmother at a very yoiung age, my greandmother was reared by other family and had very little to do with her father.
I have a copy of his wedding photo and it has very clear seargent stripes, that was Oct 1916. Wedding Cert says Sergeant and residence was Curragh camp. Birth cert for 1917 clearly states sergeant in the Royal Munsters.   No other detail. Do you think I can assume he is the sergeant noted then? He definitely served in France and there are a few stories about American soldiers that he served under.
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: clarah on Thursday 17 December 09 18:55 GMT (UK)
One other story was that he joined in Limerick aged 14. That would have been 1898. Is that possible, would there be any other way of looking up local records at that time to see if that checks out? Thanks for the assistance on this.
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: spof on Thursday 17 December 09 22:08 GMT (UK)
One other story was that he joined in Limerick aged 14. That would have been 1898. Is that possible, would there be any other way of looking up local records at that time to see if that checks out? Thanks for the assistance on this.

It was possible to join the Army back then at age 14. Think of it as an apprenticeship. They'd probably be drummers, general hands etc  while learning how to be a soldier. Any surviving records will be at Kew.

As corisande said, more family background is needed. try the 1911 Irish census based on the info from the wedding cert

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

It may help to narrow down which Thomas we are looking for.

Glen
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: jds1949 on Thursday 17 December 09 22:33 GMT (UK)
If he was in the British Army at the time of the 1911 census then he should show up on that as all of the Army establishments were recorded. There is at least one Thomas Murphy born 1884 listed as "Overseas Military"

see: http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/results4.aspx?x=721169657

jds1949
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: Listry on Wednesday 11 August 10 00:22 BST (UK)
I am still trying to piece together my ggrandfathers record. I have just found a photo of him in uniform and confirmed that he was seargent in the RMF (I previously posted under RMF on this).

Clarah,

Are you still searching for Thomas Murphy?. I have a photo of 2nd Battalion Munster Fusiliers, the photo would be circa 1920's when the 2nd Battalion was posted to Egypt and located at the Citadel, Cairo. The caption to this photo reads as follows- "Regimental Staff."
Caption lists the staff, the soldier standing at back 1st left is a "Sergeant Murphy (School)".

Unfortunately no initial was given. Do you have a photo that you can compare to this.

Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: clarah on Wednesday 11 August 10 15:18 BST (UK)
Thanks for the picture. My ggreatfather had left the army c 1919. Also I have a few photos of him so I know for definite it wasnt him. I am currently waiting excitedly on the findings of 1914-1918 researchers who have found some info on him. Hope your own research going well. Thanks
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: Listry on Wednesday 11 August 10 20:29 BST (UK)
Thanks for the picture. My grandfather had left the army c 1919. Also I have a few photos of him so I know for definite it wasn't him. I am currently waiting excitedly on the findings of 1914-1918 researchers who have found some info on him. Hope your own research going well. Thanks


Clara,

Thanks for reply.

If you manage to identify his Battalion, let me know as I have photos of 1st & 2nd Battalions. I should mention I am the son of former Munster Fusiliers soldier Timothy Sullivan 9600 1st Battalion, served with the Colours 1911-1919. (I was born in Cork).
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: Jack TT on Friday 22 March 13 12:18 GMT (UK)
To Listry:
Hi I noticed your name and replies whilst going thru some old posts, my grandfather was in the 2nd Batt. RMF  ( and militia) from  1896 thru to 1922, I cannot get his service record as the MOD in Glasgow cannot find it, I have some papers from his service, most notably a medical record that gives a lot of information on wounds and illnesses, however very little detail on locations, I wonder if any of your photos of the 2nd Battalion would add to his history, we have one photo that shows him, this is where the survivors of the Great war are off to Egypt, taken around 1920, it is published on line and we have definitely identified him. I have posted before , his name was Eugene Daly.
any comments would be appreciated
regards Jack TT
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: Listry on Friday 22 March 13 21:52 GMT (UK)
Hello Jack,

I checked the National Archives online Medal Index Cards, the following record came up for Eugene, is this the correct service number I have listed under.

It's possible his service record was at the National Archives until ancestry.com took over the records. You would need to subscribe to Ancestry to search their database.

In the meantime I will research the history of the 2nd battalion and send any  details I find.

I must apologise for delay in replying, health problems have from kept me from being very active lately.

Cheers,

James O'Sullivan
Brisbane, Australia.

Reference:WO 372/5/159063
Description:
Medal card of Daly, Eugene
Corps    Regiment No    Rank
Royal Munster Fusiliers    4364    Private
Royal Munster Fusiliers    35341    Private
Date: 1914-1920
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: Jack TT on Saturday 23 March 13 11:13 GMT (UK)
Hi James, thanks for taking the time to reply,the record you have found is correct, just to add to the information,  he enlisted in the RMF militia in may 1886, in 1902 he joined the Army service corps as a regular, in 1912 he enlisted in reg. army Munsters fusiliers, 2nd Batt. This is mainly from an army medical document that we found in his effects, looks like it was put together to apply for a pension, there is a lot of information spread in the 15 or so pages.
On 25th Sept 1915, ( no location given)he was shot thru right forearm and thighs, the document then lists the hospitals he attended, he was hospitalised for 148 days.
In 1917 he was diagnosed with malaria( did he serve in India/Africa????).
On 18/19 Oct 1918, he was wounded by shell burst to thighs and buttocks at La Cateau or Catelet. This incident has a statement from Eugene just over a page long, it gives good detail of how it happened, some details of the battle  and how he was rescued/carried by German POWs to La Boisselle 53rd Casualty station, it then lists the other hospitals where he was treated for the next 100 days or so. During this time he absconded from hospital for 7 days( looks like it was for the 1919 New year).
He then re enlisted in 2nd batt. RMF. on 24 April 1919 and went to Egypt on 24th Nov 1919. he was discharged from the army on 12 July 1922, the rest  of the medical document then records his battle to get a pension( dates go to 1926). he appears to have had recurring attacks of malaria between 4-6 times a year and the wounds received are starting to affect his civilian life, this looks like a lot of information, however it does not give service details or awards, postings etc. I have applied as next of kin to MOD records in Glasgow, but they have replied and stated that after extensive searches they cannot locate his service record. I have copies of some education and pension correspondence from the army from the 1920s, by the way the army number on his education certificates is 7212301( this gives 3 army numbers in total)
So anything that you could add from your knowledge of the RMF would be greatly appreciated.
regards
Jack
Title: Re: Royal Munster Fusiliers. Which batalion?
Post by: Jack TT on Saturday 23 March 13 11:24 GMT (UK)
Hi James
just one other thing,not sure of it adds to anything, on the Royal Munster fusiliers website there is a photo entitled "2nd Battalion  Munster Fusiliers survivors WW1"

The photo caption does not mention location, simply states these are soldiers who survived World War 1, serving with the 2nd battalion circa 1920.
In all probability these are the soldiers that were posted to Egypt 1921-1922.

Credits:

Photo from History of the Royal Munster Fusiliers,
by Captain Stouppe McCance, first published by Gale & Polden, Aldershot, 1927.


Eugene Daly is in the middle (3rd) row 4th from left, I can make out medal ribbons, but cannot identify.
may be of use if anybody else has identified a relative
regards
Jack