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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: corisande on Saturday 31 October 09 20:47 GMT (UK)
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Can one of the cognoscenti identify this uniform for me, it is said to be "pre 1916" and is from a "propaganda postcard"
The man wearing it is one Captain Robert Monteith, his title Captain comes from Irish Volunteers, and it is he who landed at Banna Strand with Casement. I am trying to find out something about Monteith's life, so anything else would be useful
I have read Monteith's own "Casement's Last Adventure" but have not been able to read "The mystery man of Banna Strand" (I live in Spain, so cannot get it from a library, and none are availble for purchase on the web)
(http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/Pows/casement/recruits/monteith/monteith.jpg)
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Online copy here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07du/
Doerries’ book “Prelude to the Easter Rising” gives quite a bit of info on Monteith. Limited preview here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07dv/
Have fun.
Dara.
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Dara that link to online copy of "Mystery Man on Banna Strand" was really useful
(for anyone want the book, it has moved to this location now) (http://www.worldcat.org/wcpa/oclc/454407890?page=frame&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhdl.handle.net%2F2027%2Fmdp.39015008405501%26checksum%3D0b5f3526a15c9f51cd3dfa09d445b0b9&title=&linktype=digitalObject&detail=)
I have got the Prelude to the Easter Rising, and it has been useful and eye-opening. So anyone wanting anything on Casement and the Irish Brigade wants to take a look at that book
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Sorry about the bad link. I think there's a conflict between RootsChat's shrink link and WorldCat's temporary links.
Hope you find what you're looking for.
Dara.
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The picture below shows Capt Monteith in a similar pose!
The picture below is a postcard/photograph that was sent to my father by his father on 31st October 1914 and was posted in Phibsborough. My grandfather is 2nd from the right - not 3rd from the right as detailed below.
We also have a copy of the photograph where the names of the officers shown are noted as follows ...................
Capt. R Monteith, Chief Instr. CJ Bodkin, Capt R Daly, Capt M Judge, Capt. TW Kerrigan, Capt T McDonagh, Capt JF Magee,
Capt. J Lenehan, Capt. V McGarry
The photograph seems to have been around the block a few times, it can be seen in the following books ....................
1916: The Easter Rising by Tim Pat Coogan (Page 47) and
The Howth Gun-Running 1914 by FX Martin OSA (Opposite page 134)
The caption beneath the photograph says "Volunteer officers receive orders before the march. Capt Monteith at extreme left; Capt Judge fifth from left."
If the caption to the photograph is correct (I wonder?) it would date the photo to the day of the landing at Howth on 26 July 1914.
H
EDIT 31Dec09
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Hugo
That must be the very earliest example of PhotoShop that I have seen!
The photo I put up of Monteith alone is from a "propoganda" postcard, I guess they wanted all those captains in the one photo, and "dropped" him in
If you go to the link given in this thread and plough your way through the Mystery Man on Banna Strand, you can, I think find out what Monteith was doing the day of the gun running at Howth. From memory he was not there, but went back the next day and rescued rifles.
Given that I am not convinced that he was originally photographed with the group, it may or may not give you corroboration for the date of the group.
Is your grandfather the chap that went on to join the RDF, or is that another member of your family?
I'll say this for the lads, they enjoyed the uniforms - in Monteith's diary he notes he paid £25 for his uniform in Germany, and that in 1915, having alreay paid for his Irish one above.
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You have now set me wondering!
Given that the title of the postcard refers to the National Volunteers, it seems that FX Martin's caption in his book 'The Howth Gun-Running 1914' - " "Volunteer officers receive orders before the march.................." may not be correct - since the 'split' in the 'Irish Volunteers had not yet taken place. I understand the split occurred shortly after John Redmond's 'Woodenbridge speech' on 20 September 1914 and therefore the name National Volunteers (INV) had not come into existence.
Alternatively, is FX Martin's caption correct and the INV 'hijacked' the photograph and had it made into postcards after their formation? The only thing I know for certain is that the postcard is postmarked 31 October 1914 or could that have been manipulated as well?
I do like your idea about photoshop - looking at the photo you have posted looks to me more as if Monteith was 'lifted' from the Volunteers photo and 'planted' in yours rather than the other way around. Monteith's legs and feet look to be in focus with the surrounding ground in the 'group' photo whereas the ground on which he is standing in your photo is not. What do you think?
The photograph that I posted was taken from a slightly different angle from the one in FX Martin's book, Monteith is partially obscured by Ch Instructor Bodkin, but the composition and subjects are identical even Monteith's 'pose'!
I also notice that Monteith's cap badge is different from that of the other officers in both group photos, his looks like an Irish Harp. A member of a military history list suggests that the cap badge is that of Dublin Regiment of the National Volunteers - you can see an expample on 'Memorabilia from The 1916 Easter Rising, its Prelude and Aftermath' at .......
http://www.theeasterrising.eu/120Volunteers/NV.htm
there is also a copy of the photo I posted as well.
(My grandfather is still looking at the camera in the FX Martin's photo & yes, he did join the RDF in 1915.)
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I have no real idea as to which he was lifted from in order to go into the other.
Logically one would think they added him to the group in order to make it complete for all Captains.
Monteith in the group appears to have a slightly different uniform - viz no white shirt under the tunic, and a different collar to his tunic.
Either way it is only one photo of Monteith in my opinion.
I am no expert on the Volunteers ( ;-) )
I got that photo of Monteith here (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~bwickham/postcard.htm) where the whole group are called "propaganda postcards", and once you get into propaganda there is no telling where the truth lies
I would assume the postmark of your photo is correct if it is readable and was sent within the family - no particular reason for them to change the dates - though you can see there are other vested interests!
That's cleared up your grandfather - I assume he was never taken prisoner, so the question of joining the Irish Brigade in Germany under Monteith never came up. Which is where I came in to the Monteith saga
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Hi Corisande. I am a relation of Robert Monteith. Have been researching him on and off for a long time. Yours, bannastrand
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Post 2. I have just joined because I stumbled on your post Corisande about Robert Monteith.
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Post 3. I am interested in sharing info about Robert Monteith as he is a relation of mine.
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Bannastrand,
Never heard back from you :(
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I noticed your entry about Captain Monteith . I have just inherited my grandfather's papers and his account of his days in the Irish Volunteers and IRA. His name was Peter Reynolds , he owned a Motor Cycle repair shop and was used as a message courier and he records that "I had a message to deliver from the Countess Markievice to Captain Monteith ....... I left my house (164 North King Street)on a motor cycle at 2.30 (Infuriatingly he does not say what day, but it was in his entries for 1914) to meet the captain at Nelson's Pillar ( by the GPO in O'Connell St, or Sackville St as it was.)On the way my grandfather write that he had an accident and was taken to hospital but refused to stay as he had to meet Monteith, which he did, and delivered the message..
Hewrites of further meetings and of being present when police came to Monteith's house (after he had returned from USA) with an order for him to leave Dublin. Apparently Monteith was sent to Athboy some 42 miles from Dublin.
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Thanks for that info on your grandfather's dealings with Capt Monteith. It all helps to put together the picture on what was going on.
You should consider publishing the papers you have, or giving a copy to whatever Dublin library is dealing with such papers at the moment. No doubt one of the forum readers in Dublin could advise.
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Re: Robert Monteith - Irish Volunteers
I would be interested in learning more about your grandfathers papers. Does he reference other message couriers in Meath? Is there any reference to a MacMahon or O'Grady?
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You should publish your grandfather's papers. Is there a reference to MacMahons or O'grady's who would also have been dispatchers in the Meath (Navan/Athboy) areas in 1916.
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I too would be nterested to learn more about Robert Monteith - my great Grandfather and great Grandmother hid him in their house and looked after him shortly after he landed. Would love to know more.
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Carrumba
If you click this link to the page I have on Robert Monteith (http://www.irishbrigade.eu/recruits/monteith.html), it will give you a lot of background
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Thanks for the link- interesting stuff. I will try and get a hold of the book my great grandparents are mentioned in and post an extract if I can.
It's fascinating stuff building a picture of family I only ever met when I was a baby from a time my father carefully shielded me from.
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"Mystery Man on Banna Strand" see post 3 and 4 on this thread, is available online
One of the two books has his diary entries
Montieth got so worn down by it all that he only wrote the diary for a couple of months, and gave up in Jan 1916!
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I finally found his British Army service record - it turns out that he never got higher than Corporal in his extensive service in the British Army (8 years in the Colours and 8 years in the Reserves)
It probably is not therefore surprising that he had problems running the Irish Brigade and dealing with the German General Staff.
I was able to use the army record to get dates and places correct in his life during that time.
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I too have found out more about my Great Grandfather - I didn't realise he was the first man to meet and shelter him when he arrived ashore.
Do you think Monteith's rank was the main reason he could not deal with the German military or more to do with their superiority complex or both?
Glad to hear you have managed to progress your research! :)
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Do you think Monteith's rank was the main reason he could not deal with the German military or more to do with their superiority complex or both
It appears to have been a mix of both. The Germans believed that he has been a Sgt-Major rather than a Corporal, and the rank they gave him in Germany
1915 Oct 28 Casement writes to Wedel "If only I had an officer to take command most of my difficulties would disappear - but Mr Monteith will do in most respects to keep the camp in order. I am appointing him "pro tem" Commanding Officer of the Irish Corps"
And his recognition by the Germans seems to have been to Feldwebel-Leutnant a rank in the German army for vetern NCOs, that was commissioned, but below the rank of Lieutenant. He was therefore a commissioned officer, but only at this low rank. He was never a "Captain" in Germany. This made it "difficult" for him to deal with German General Staff
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Finally got a copy from the 1950's edition of "Casement's Last Adventure", written by Captain Robert Monteith, which names my great grandparents. My father owns a copy of the pre 1950's version with no names mentioned to avoid prosecution. My great grandparents are mentioned in the chapter "Tralee, page 165-166.
He (Monteith) is taken to the hall of the Ancient Order of Hibernians which was under the care of my Great Grandfather (John O'Sullivan) and he stayed in a flat above there. Monteith was playing cards late into the night with supporters.
"As we played a wire was brought in by John O'Sullivan from the stationmaster at Fenit. As far as my memory serves it ran: 'Germans landing arms at Banna Strand, reward offered for capture.'..." and later records, "I stayed the night in the flat occupied by John O'Sullivan who had charge of the hall. O'Sullivan worked on the railway, and was on night duty, but his wife and her sister-in-law, Miss Elizabeth O'Sullivan, took good care of me."
My father, who stayed with his grandfather when growing up, tells me John was indeed a member of the AOH and got quite bitter in later years referring to De Valera as "that bloody Spaniard". His mood probably wasn't improved by his fearsome wife, Ellen, who insisted they moved to Coventry- probably to ensure she had some say in the upbringing of her children and grandchildren there.
Does anybody know if the hall used by the AOH in Tralee still stands or if there would be any AOH records surviving?
Cheers all.
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I, too, have an interest in the photograph of group with Captain Monteith - and the other photographs in the series - Signal company, Cyclist Company, 'Ireland United is all that we ask' does anyone know where they were taken?
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If you are referring to the photo I posted on 2nd Nov 2009 I'm told that it was/may have been taken at quote "Croydon Green near the Marino in Dublin" unquote.
Do you know any of the other officers in the photo?
H
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Many thanks - Croydon Green! Are you familiar with the other photographs, as they appear to be part of series, ie - 'The National Volunteers - 1st and 2nd Battalions, Signalling Company' (in front of a Refreshment Pavilion), 'Ireland United is all that we ask' and 'The National Volunteers - A Cyclist Company' and 'Irish National Volunteers - Motor Scout'.
No real family connections (I think) but as they seem to have been in the family for years, I wonder.
Once again, thanks
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The picture below shows Capt Monteith in a similar pose!
The picture below is a postcard/photograph that was sent to my father by his father on 31st October 1914 and was posted in Phibsborough. My grandfather is 2nd from the right - not 3rd from the right as detailed below.
We also have a copy of the photograph where the names of the officers shown are noted as follows ...................
Capt. R Monteith, Chief Instr. CJ Bodkin, Capt R Daly, Capt M Judge, Capt. TW Kerrigan, Capt T McDonagh, Capt JF Magee,
Capt. J Lenehan, Capt. V McGarry
The photograph seems to have been around the block a few times, it can be seen in the following books ....................
1916: The Easter Rising by Tim Pat Coogan (Page 47) and
The Howth Gun-Running 1914 by FX Martin OSA (Opposite page 134)
The caption beneath the photograph says "Volunteer officers receive orders before the march. Capt Monteith at extreme left; Capt Judge fifth from left."
If the caption to the photograph is correct (I wonder?) it would date the photo to the day of the landing at Howth on 26 July 1914.
H
EDIT 31Dec09
Hugo - I wonder if I could ask for your email address as I have been trying to find out who owns that image that you have posted to get permission to use it in an Irish documentary series about 7 men who were executed in the aftermath of the 1916 Rising.
Many Thanks, Karen