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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Southern on Saturday 31 October 09 07:25 GMT (UK)
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Can some one help please! Looking for a Charles Brown, (b. 1830, Boston, USA) and a Barbara Speedie (b. 1831 Fife, Scotland). I have them married in 1855, but there is no listing on BDM NSW registration. The information I have is Sydney as there place of marriage, one of their kids is listed as the the Wesleyan church birth register. Any suggestions how to track down this missing piece of the puzzle?
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Hi there,
Just wondering where you have found the details for their 1855 marriage... Is it from the birth certs for their children? Do you have the arrival information for either of them to NSW ? Civil registration of marriages commenced in 1856 for NSW, although of course Early Church Records start from 1788 ish....
Some of Wesleyan Archives are located in Sydney, at the former Burnside Homes just off Pennant Hills Road, North Parramatta.... but I am not sure of their current holdings... its several years since I last spent some time trawling through their archives..
Images of the ECR records are on film at the NSW State Library, but that's also located in Sydney and I now reside "up the coast"... It is likely that I will be at the State Library sometime in the next few weeks, but I would need some more clues about the couple so I could figure out which film to trawl through....
Cheers, JM
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Hi,
Thanks for the reply. Yes, the info is obtained from his son's birth cert. Charles Alexander Brown born 1860, Lamplough Station, Victoria. The birth cert. states his father's age of 30 at time of birth and born Boston, USA. It lists the marriage to Barbaa Speedie as Sydney, 1855. Charles arrived in Sydney on the ship Wide Awake on Dec. 20 1854. He was listed as crew. Barbara Speedie was born in Fife, Scotland 1831.
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Ta,
I think your Barbara Speedie arrived NSW on the Anna arriving Feb 1855, when she was aged 23...
I'll do my best to help, but not exactly sure when I will be in Sydney next...
Do you want further info for Charles and/or Barbara or is your question specifically seeking their marriage?
Cheers
JM
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yes, you are correct. She did arrive on the Anna. I have some info on their 3 children, and life at Polia Station. Hoping the marriage cert. might just give me his father's name or more details of his birth place.
Thanks.
Glen
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Do you have his death certificate - obviously if you do it doesn't state his parents' name/s.
Sorry to be so ignorant but where is Polia? I guess what I'm trying to ask is where they spent most time - in Vic or NSW.
Cheers, Judith
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Umm,
I understand, agh BROWN search .... nearly as difficult as my own search for John and Mary Smith pre their arrival in NSW ! And I gather you are aware that the ECR records are Parish records rather than civil registrations, so it may be that his parents names may not be on the marriage registry.... Keep fingers and toes crossed !
I will put my thinking cap on!
JM
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Umm, Judith,
I think Polia Station was in NSW outback, perhaps near White Cliffs etc, not sure.... but I have seen it mentioned when reading about my early drovers and shearers .... My lot were at Buckanbee Station....
Cheers, JM
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Hi Glen, Hi Judith,
Yes, Polia Station was on the Darling, here's a link
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5848749?searchTerm=%22polia+station%22 from 1873 ....
Cheers, JM
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Thanks, JM. I suppose I'm trying to tease out whether Glen has his death cert and if not where to have a hunt for it.
Judith
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Hi Judith,
I understand.... and agree of course.... tis the popularity of the surname.... and if Charles Brown died in that remote area, I have several books from various FHS that may help him....
JM
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Hi all,
Sorry I have not yet acquired his death cert. From the info from the Wentworth Historical Society, I have checked the burials in and near greater Mildura and Wentworth. He is not listed here with his children, all buried in Wentworth. Extracts from the books from the society, give me most of info about the Anna Branch and surrounding areas. There is a charles Brown listed on the 1881 electoral roll at Euston. Not sure if this is anything to go by or not.
Although his son was born in Victoria.
thanks for all the help
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Hi there,
Do you have cemetery details for his wife, Barbara ?
I have some books for the Darling Back Blocks, alas these are not well indexed, but I will have a read through them over the next week or so to see if I can spot your Charles Brown....
Any clues as to possible year/decade for his death.... Also, do you have an occupation for him.... or other genie clues ....
Cheers, JM
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Umm,
You mentioned Euston Station....
from the 1878 NSW electoral roll for Balranald (tis the right area for those Darling Back Blocks) there's a John Bertram a leaseholder at Euston Station and further down the page there's
CHARLES BROWN of Yanga, qualified to enrol through his residence, at Paika Lake....
Cheers,
JM
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Hello Southern
I see three entries, in the Victoria BMDs surname BROWN, parents Charles and Barbara.
B 1860 Charles BROWN, LAMP Reg no 15706 mother's surname SPEEDIE
D 1860 Charlotte BROWN age 1 ALE Reg no 3036 - mother's surname listed as SPEEDY
D 1862 Unnamed female BROWN age 2W REDB Reg no 7253E, no surname given for mother and father listed as "Charles Seme BROWN"
Can't see any BROWN births in NSW registered with parents Charles and Barbara, but perhaps, given that there is an entry in the Wesleyan register they were not formally registered.
Another long shot - were they actually married? There is a marriage of a Barbara SPEEDIE to Richard HILL 1864 Victoria reg 3456 which was after the births and deaths of the chn mentioned above.
The immigration entry for Barbara SPEEDIE, age 23 from Newberry Fife, arriving on the Anna into Sydney Feb 21 1855, states that her parents are Matthew? (hard to read) and Isabella, mother dead, father living at Melbourne, Victoria. Barbara is a housemaid, can read and write, state of health good and paid 1 pound fare as an assisted immigrant.
Some possibilities:
Vic indexes has the death of a Mathew SPEEDIE b Fife age 58 in 1863 Reg no 6085;
and death for Ellen SPEEDIE b Fife age 71, parents George SKINNER and Juliet REEKIE, 1876 Reg 13277
Leave you to ponder on that!
Judith
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Bit More,
1929 NSW BDM death registration from online index- at Wentworth..... for a Charles A Brown, son of Charles and Barbara S.... (22810/1929).... do you know what the 'A' stands for at all.... perhaps there's a clue to the names of Charles' parents (ie Charles A Brown's paternal grandparents ;) )
Cheers, JM
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Bit More,
On a submitted tree out there in cyberspace, there's a Charles Brown, spouse of Barbara Speedie.... and the tree owner has noted that they had three children, yougest was Charles Alexander Brown born 1860 (no date) at Lamplough, dying 17 Oct 1929 - Lamplough, Victoria, Australia
JM
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Bit More,
Forgot to add ....
Submitted tree shows Charles Brown as resident Georgetown, Essex, Massachusetts, United States in 1880.... perhaps he died in USA .... if so, I'm not familiar with what info would be found on a US of A death certificate, but hopefully it would include info about that 1855 Sydney NSW marriage....
Also, do you think Charles "jumped ship" in 1854 ? perhaps like many others at that time .... gold fever !
Cheers, JM
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There is a headstone in the Wentworth Church of England Cemetery for the 1929 Charles A BROWN NSW death, photograph available from
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~deadsearch/cemetery_index.htm
Email address on home page. Please give photograph number when ordering. This is a very generous free service provided by Kym.
BROWN Charles A 1929 Age 69 Photograph No 1547
There is no 1929 death for a Charles Alexander BROWN in the Victorian death index. It would appear that the submitter of the unknown family tree has assumed his place of death was the same as his place of birth ie Lamplough which is near Avoca in Vic.
Cheers
Cando
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IGI has a birth for Barbara SPEEDIE, parents Mathew SPEEDIE and Isabel HARROWER, 9 Jun 1831, baptism 8 Jul 1832 at Newborough Fife. This is an extracted entry so reasonably reliable. (Batch No C114505)
The marriage of Mathew and Isabel is listed also at Newborough, Fife 2 December 1827, Extracted entry Batch M114505. There are a number of other children listed for Mathew and Isabel.
Judith
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1841 Scotland census
In the same household at East Port, Newburgh, Fife
Mathew SPEEDIE 33 innkeeper b Scotland,
Isabel 35 b Fife,
Margaret 11 b Fife,
Barbara 9 b Fife,
Mary 4 b Fife,
Alen 1 b Fife
with Robert BARCLAY 20 b Fife,
Iran HEDDLE (f) 20 b Fife,
N K BARNEL 45 (m) b Fife
At a quick look I couldn't find any of these people on later censuses - but I must admit I didn't hunt too hard!
Judith
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Hi there,
Do you have cemetery details for his wife, Barbara ?
I have some books for the Darling Back Blocks, alas these are not well indexed, but I will have a read through them over the next week or so to see if I can spot your Charles Brown....
Any clues as to possible year/decade for his death.... Also, do you have an occupation for him.... or other genie clues ....
Cheers, JM
I have had a quick look through one book, no mention of your chap, but....
Just a gentle reminder, re the details on his wife's death cert may help .... have you located that record at all?
JM
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Following from Judith's immigration info about Barbara [have also tried to read the record ::)] and her father living in Melbourne- his death -
SPEEDIE Matthew
Father Alexander Mother unknown
58 years Born Fife 1863 Reg#6085
Death of Mary who was aged 4 on the 1841 census
SPEEDIE Mary
Father Matthew Mother Isabella Lyon UNKNOWN
21 years Born Fife 1858 Reg#8563
... and perhaps this marriage in Victoria may be, as mentioned previously, relevant.
SPEEDIE Barbara
HILL Richard
1864 Reg#3456
Of course we may be looking at the records of a different Barbara SPEEDIE who was also born in Fife in 1831 :-\.
You mention one of Charles and Barbara's chn being listed on the Wesleyan Church register....what is the name of the child?
He [Charles] is not listed here with his children, all buried in Wentworth
Southern
What are the names of the other children buried in Wentworth please?
Cando
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Is the full date of the marriage on the 1860 birth cert for Charles? Wonder if the date of marriage is consistent on these regs. Sometimes if only the year is shown I am a tad suspicious ;)
3584/1856
BROWN Leonard L
Father Charles Mother Barbara
District Braidwood
5697/1858
BROWN Charlotte I
Father Charles Mother Barbara
District Braidwood
Wonder if the Charles Seme BROWN on the 1860 death cert for an unnamed child is Charles Lemeral BROWN as I notice a Charles Lemeral BROWN buried at Wentworth born 1899 -
Birth
22594/1899
BROWN Lemeral
Father Charles A Mother Annie
District Medindie
Marriage
7404/1885
BROWN Charles A
MCINNES Annie
Distrit Wentworth
I realise you have all this info but detailed to support my interpretation of Charles 2nd given name. Unusual name.
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Charles Brown had 3 children, Charles Alexander 1860-1929, Charlotte Isobella 1858-1860, and Lemeral Brown 1856-?. Charles Lemeral Brown burried in 1899 is the son of Charles Alexander Brown.
The Brown's in the Wentworth cemetery I have as follows:
Charles Alexander (Anglican) 17.10.1929
Charles Lemeral (Catholic) 303.1968
Ruth Marion - Wife of Charles L ( Catholic) 19.2.1987
Lemeral (Catholic) 1.2.1970
The birth cert I have has the marriage of Charles Brown and Barbara Speedie, Sydney 1855.
thanks fior all your info - greatly appreciated. Lots to ponder and work on now.
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and Lemeral Brown 1856-?.
938/1932
BROWN Lamerall [sic]
Father Charles A Mother Barbara
District Granville
Perhaps it may be worth getting a transcription of the other birth certs to compare the date of the marriages. Vic birth regs often appear to have the full date of the marriage ie if known. I guess it also depends on the local registrar.
Cando
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~deadsearch/cemetery_index.htm
Wentworth Catholic Cemetery
BROWN Francis Lemeral (1970 age 44 husband of Joan) 205-206
BROWN Lemeral (1970 age 70) 207-208
BROWN Charles Lemeral (1968 age 82), Ruth Marion (1987 age 91) 234-235
BROWN Myrtle (1945 age 34) 244-245
*BROWN Annie (1937 age 74) 293-294
and Charles A in the Anglican.
*Charles A's wife?
BROWN Annie
Parents unknown
At Mildura 74 years 1937 Reg#18531
Marriage
7404/1885
BROWN Charles A
MCINNES Annie
District Wentworth
You could download an image of the registration which would give her spouse, date of marriage and names of issue.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage
or alternatively ask Kym to email you a photo of the headstone noting the cemetery and photo number with your request.
khor[AT]iprimus.com.au
Hopefully the inscription should say wife of etc.
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks Cando,
Charles A Brown's wife is Annie McInnes born in clare SA. i have that cert. tucked away somewhere.
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Hi all
Trying to get this straight in my head
In my reply #14 I mention a death in Victoria which matches the birth of the child in Braidwood 1858 which Cando found. (Reply #23).
So there were 4 children born to Charles and Barbara –
Leonard L b Braidwood 1856 - can we assume this is the "Lemeral" that Southern mentions??
Charlotte b Braidwoood 1858, d 1860 Victoria ALE
Charles Alexander b 1860 Lamplough – lots of info about him
Un-named F died aged 2 weeks Victoria REDB
I would agree with you, Cando that the "Charles Seme" mentioned on the child's death should read "Charles Leme"
And the Barbara SPEEDIE/ Richard HILL marriage which MAY be relevant (I'm almost tempted to buy that one myself...... 8) )
Cheers, Judith
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Judith I have had thoughts along the same lines ::) :P If it was my family...I say no more :-X :-X ;D The Vic bdm is a little convenient at times but made researching my own family history a breeze ;D ;D
I am following up on some more SPEEDIE family info. I have found a reference for Matthew SPEEDIE and family. Won't have info for a couple of days.
Some further reading for an insolvency for a Matthew SPEEDIE
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/
Search using Matthew SPEEDIE
Cheers
Cando
Edit to amend info
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From Vic BMDs
Marriage 1881/5705
BROWN Lemeral b NSW
HEYWOOD Sarah b Collingwood
At a quick glance couldn't see any births to this couple in Victoria.
Judith
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Hi all,
Sorry - not being back for a while. An update on my ponderings re Brown. Australian Cemeteries at Ancestry.com has a Charles BROWN burried at Rheola, Victoria, 1894. Also a Brown nee Hunt burried there as well, 8 Feb 1914 age 93 which makes her born in 1831 if my maths is good.
Although there is no listing in the vic bdm for a marriage bwt. speedie/hunt or brown/hunt.
Many thanks again for all your assistance.
cheers Glen
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Death
BROWN Charles
Parents unknown
74 years at Inglewood 1894 Reg#6261
The BROWN nee HUNT cemetery record in 1914 is actually for a 83 year old and I can't find anything in the Vic death index.
Cando