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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: Olive H on Friday 30 October 09 08:24 GMT (UK)
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Hello
Is there anyone who can tell me anything about Hodge Hall [Hole?] in Mottram in Longendale. I believe an ancestor of mine was living there in the 1700's. I found that mentioned in a google book link but have not been able to find anything else running a search on my ancestor and very little on Hodge Hall. I have only been able to find the ... ► Broadbottom Community Association ◄ (http://www.broadbottomvillage.com/history%201795.htm) "History Project 1795" link, which says very little too. Can anyone please advise how I go about finding information on the residence and also how I can confirm that my ancestor was indeed living there.
Also, does anyone know if John Rylands library at the University of Manchester would have any old maps for the area...i.e. for the 1700's time period.
Thanks in advance
Olive
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I know this is rather later than your family were in the area, but it may help locate the place:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07dg/
(In the middle of the page at the bottom you can select the township).
Hope it helps - and if not it's a great site anyway. :)
PS. Welcome to rootschat! ;D
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Have you tried to locate it using the description in the link you provided? Have you tried finding it on http://www.old-maps.co.uk/? You can try comparing it to a modern map to see if the hall is still around today. :)
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Thanks for replying Ruskie. Have been through that Broadbottom Community Association link thoroughly and there is a brief mention and them having said it might have been alternatively called Hodge Hole but beyond that no details. Thanks for the old maps link but it doesn't cover the 1700's unfortunately.
edit:
Hadn't seen your first post - just spotted it. Will check out that link - thanks for that.
Cheers
Olive
edit: Have been on that first link. It seems to provide few names but I found one name of interest regarding a more recent ancestor who was living in the region in the 1841 census.....an area called Mud. I think it covers areas rather than residence names. But Cheshire East Council might be able to help with part of my enquiry so thank you for the link :)
Olive
edit:
Found an area on the modern day map called Hodge Fold and the area is clearly marked out on the 1836-51 map but no names, just the boundaries. Not sure if the Hall would have been within those boundaries.
Olive
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Well it looks like you've made some progress then. :)
From your link it says:
A cluster of houses, some dating from the end of the seventeenth century stood at the bottom of what is now Moss Lane, now called Hodge Fold. The oldest part was then a single dwelling called Hodge Hall or possibly Hodge Hole. There were also cottages on the other side of the lane where a modern bungalow stands.
This sounds to me (but I may be wrong) like Hodge Hall was once a single dwelling now split into a number of cottages and renamed Hodge Fold.
So if you've found Hodge Fold, you've found Hodge Hall ... :-\
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Hello Ruskie
Could be so - thanks for the suggestion. I wonder when Hodge Hall would have been knocked down. I have found mention of a couple of names other than the one I am interested in, in connection with the dwelling. For instance, on this ►"The Diary of George Booth" ◄ (http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:oZYyLc9E9P0J:freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~dusk/george_booths_diary.html+%22hodge+hall%22+mottram&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a) link (Hodge Hall highlighted), below an entry for Oct 4th 1833 and above an entry for Oct 7th 1833: Mr James MATLEY of Hodge Hall died a few days since.... Does that suggest Hodge Hall was still in existence in 1833 or was it that he had been born there or brought up there, or had spent a long period of time previously there... ??
edit:
Presumably the Hall was still there in the very early 1800's as I just found baptisms for children [not my rellies though as far as I know] born 1810-1814 where the father was mentioned as farmer of Hodge Hall, under ................ ► All Saints Glossop Baptisms ◄ (http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:BX_dWGGlAAAJ:freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~dusk/glossop_baptisms.html+%22hodge+hall%22+mottram&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a)..
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Hodge Hall may have been knocked down anytime between 1814 and 1841, I am guessing?!! On the 1841 census for Ashton under Lyne, only these names are mentioned: ► Hodge Fold, Hodge House, Hodge Lodge and Hodge Mill. ◄ (http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:Ashton_Under_Lyne_Registration_District%2C_1841_Census_Street_Index_G-K) . I think you might be right with your surmise Ruskie. Thanks for all your help and the links :)
Olive
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title=Place:Ashton_Under_Lyne_Registration_District%2C_1841_Census_Street_Index_G-K] ► Hodge Fold, Hodge House, Hodge Lodge and Hodge Mill. ◄ [/url] .
Olive
Unless these are the smaller cottages that used to once be a larger dwelling called Hodge Hall ... :-\ Just wild guessing of course ... ;)
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I used to live near Mottram, but never was aware of Hodge hall/ hole, but leaving Mottram via the Stalybrdge Rd, the 2nd road on the left is Matley Lane, i wnder if there was a connection with the Matley family ?
bodger
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Could be so Ruskie ;)
Thanks for your input too.... Bodger :)
It does look like Hodge Hall /Hole was connected with the Matley family certainly at some stage from what I found under "The Diary of George Booth" [link above]. Not aware I have any ancestral connection to them but you never know ;) I think it is likely that Matley Lane was named after the Matley family. Not sure which Archives would be the best course of action for finding out more regarding Hodge Hall/Hole.
Thanks :)
Olive
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There is also a 'Higher Matley Hall' on the modern map.
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Hi Ruskie
Thanks for the info :)
Now I wonder who built the both of them ???
I earlier sent a query through the Tameside gov website regarding Hodge Hall. Will post details here when they respond....hopefully they will be able to tell us a little more ....fingers crossed ;) ..
I wonder if that was just called Matley Hall in the olden days as just ran a quick search and could only find mention of a Matley Hall in the censuses for the area.. It must be an old building anyway as I just found this also....mention of it having been for sale, fairly recently presumably....it is Grade II listed and has stables, and a tack room ? [whatever that is] ... ►Matley ...Higher Matley Hall ◄ (http://www.tamesidereporter.com/propertysearch.php?sel_Town=-1&sel_Agent=-1&sel_Min=425000&sel_Max=900000&txt_Keyword=higher+matley+hall&rad_Order=2&Submit=Search&hdn_Submitted=&offset=0) ...
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Yes, do keep us up to date with any new findings OliveH. I think a tack room is something to do with horsey things? ;)
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I think also there was a Stayley Hall in Mottram at least in the early 1800's..connected with farming :)
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Sorry I'm only just responding, but new to research into the Hodge Hall area.
Basically, I had a relative, Edward Moss, who was the occupier of Hodge Hall in 1799. I believe he built nearby Moss Mill in 1796.
I looked at the Land Tax Returns only last week and Edward Moss paid the Land Tax on Hodge Hall up to 1803 or there abouts after which time he was paying the tax on Hodge Farm. (these dates are very approximate). He also paid Land Tax on a mill variously known as Wharf Mill or Hodge Mill from 1799 until the 1820's. I suspect he was only a joint occupier of Hodge Mill so maybe other people paid tax on part of it as well.
If this is of any interest please get back to me.
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Welcome to rootschat Jeff. :)
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Thanks Ruskie.
A pity that Olive H doesn't appear to be active on rootschat these days as I now have even more information, including a map showing Hodge Hall!
Jeff
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Yes, Olvive H hasn't been on for over a year. It might be worth sending her a Personal Message. Just click on her name which will take you to a page where you can do this. Anyway, it's nice of you to try to help. :)
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Thanks, have now tried a personal message. Obviously help is a two way thing as Olive may have information which is useful to me, we might even have a common ancestor!
Jeff
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Like JeffB, I seem to have come into this rather late. I'd certainly be interested in swapping notes with Jeff if we are the only two with current interests here.
Hodge Hall was a farm at the southern limit of the township of Mottram (within what is now Broadbottom). As far as I am aware it is only referred to as 'Hodge Hole' in the Land Tax. The farmhouse still survives, divided into cottages called 'Hodgefold.' It is a late 17th century building with a 1676 datestone. It is on the statutory list and you will find a picture and a brief description on English Heritage's Images of England website
(http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/Details/default.aspx?pid=2&id=212514).
Most material associated with Hodge Hall - there is very little- is in the Tollemache (Wilbraham of Woodhey) collection (DTW) at the Cheshire county record office. For most of the eighteenth century it was held by the Bowers family
The identification of Hodge Hall with Hodgefold is quite clear. There is a sketch plan connected to a proposed lease to Binns and Shaw of parcels of land for the construction of a cotton mill amongst the expired and counterpart leases in the DTW series in Cheshire County Record office which shows the position of Hodge Hall obviously where Hodge Fold. (within DTW/2477/F/12) Mollie Sayer at Broadbottom CA took this information from me. There is also among the DTW collection at the Cheshire County Record Office a plan of 1830 of land leased by Admiral Tollemache to Edward Moss (to whom Jeff refers) which clearly marks what is now called Hodge Fold as Hodge Hall ( DTW/48)
There are, however, no maps at a suitable scale from before 1800 at John Rylands, or as far as I am aware anywhere else. There was an estate plan produced in 1771 which would have shown Hodge Hall and the associated parcels of land, but this does not survive. I have been attempting to reconstruct this plan. The extent of the land parcels associated with Hodge Hall is, however clear.
The discussion of Matley, I'm afraid is a red herring. Matley was another township within Mottram parish, but has nothing to do with Hodge Hall. The Matley family, however, are connected with Hodge (see below). Samuel Matley moved his printworks from Red Bank in Manchester to Hodge (Mottram) in 1804/5
My understanding is that the Edward Moss that JeffB refers to is Edward son of Arthur and Martha Moss of Mossley. He seems to have married in Cartmel in what is now Cumbria where I suspect he worked at the Cark Cotton Mill and was working at Hodge from 1789. From about 1789 to 1796 in was in partnership with John Swindells and Strettel Seddon at 'Hodge Mill' a converted fulling mill on the foundations of which Hodge Cottage now stands. His partnership with Swindells and Seddon broke up in 1796. Seddon started a new mill at Prestolee near Bolton, Swindells carried on running Hodge Mill, and Edward Moss built his new mill (also referred to as Hodge Mill- but also Wharf Mill and Moss Mill) close by. in 1796. This was built with the benefit of a 99 year building lease from Wilbraham Tollemache to himself Robert Moss and Anthony Hardy. John Swindells subsequently went into partnership with his son in law John Dale operating their Hodge Mill until 1804 when they went bankrupt. The site was then taken over by Samuel Matley and Company who ran it as the Hodge Printworks. Edward Moss continued running his Hodge Mill (Wharf Mill) as Jeff states. I think (until he let it to the Becketts as I'm sure Jeff will have discovered) he occupied the whole of that 'Hodge Mill' which he had built in 1796. The spatial relation between the two mills is evident from a sale plan from 1840. The best description of Moss's Hodge Mill that I have come across is in auction details from the Manchester Times and Gazette for 27th July 1833.
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For what it may be worth, when i lived in the area, the cross road on the "Back Moor ", Stalybridge rd was always referred to as the Tollemache
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prbibby - just to let you know that I have seen your message - many thanks for the response. I am currently away on holiday, due to return on 24th April at which time I will be delighted to swap notes etc.
Jeffb
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prbibby I sent a couple of p.m.s to you regarding Hodge Hall - did you get them?
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prbibby I sent a couple of p.m.s to you regarding Hodge Hall - did you get them?
Prbibby hasn't returned to rootschat since their original post. You are unable to send PM's to other members until they have made three posts, so prbibby can't have received your messages as they have only made one post. Lets hope they have enabled notification of replies and see that you wish to make contact.
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Thanks for the information/advice - I hadn't realised!
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Hi all following this thread,
Thanks for the interesting information Jeff.
It was actually a probate search on the Cheshire Wills database that had got me intrigued with Hodge Hall. There is an entry for a Ralph Bowers (minor), 1734. I have an ancestor with Ralph Bower as the first two parts of his name, born in Mottram in Longendale. I was speculating that there is a likely connection with this Ralph Bowers somewhere along the line,though have not been able to make the connection as of yet. This is what has got my interest in Hodge Hall. Jeff: you mentioned Hodge Hall being in the Bowers family for most of the 18th century in your post - was it likely the Bowers who built Hodge Hall? Who were the Bowers. Do any of you have any connection to them or information on them? Many Thanks..
Regards,
Olive
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Hi Olive,
I'm not sure that I mentioned the Bowers family - I think that was prbibby. My first family connection to Broadbottom was via Edward Moss, again mentioned by prbibby. Edward Moss was born in Mossley in 1756 and, as prbibby says, he was the son of Arthur Moss and Martha Hardy, both Mossley people.
In or around 1784/5 Edward Moss, a joiner at the time, accompanied his Uncle, Edward Hardy, up to Cark (near Cartmel in the South Lakes) where they worked in a mill (Edward Hardy was a partner in the mill along with Joseph Ryder and Joseph Thakerey of Manchester, Thomas Slatterthwaite and James Stockdale). In 1785 Edward married Margaret Harrison at Cartmel Priory.
By 1796 Edward had moved to Broadbottom (not sure of the exact date, where he worked in the mill, but in the meantime he went into partnership with 2 others to build his own mill at Broadbottom (Check my post of 7/3 2011). The first time I am aware of him living in Hodge Hall was in 1799 as he was paying land tax for the Hall. I am not aware of any history of the hall prior to that.
Edward's wife, Margaret, died in 1807 and he subsequently re-married to Betty Sidebottom who was much younger than Edward. Edward had 9 children with his first wife and a further 4 with his second wife.
Edward's mill business was not a great success and eventually lead him close to bankruptcy. He made many attempts to sell the mill, but to no avail. In 1834 he committed suicide in The Angel In in Mottram. Soon after Edward's death many of his family left Broadbottom with my ancestors moving back to Mossley, where my family history continues.
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Hi Jeff,
The nature of Edward's death - that is very very sad to here :(