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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: MKG on Monday 26 October 09 21:41 GMT (UK)
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I've got an interesting one - yes, this is going to be related to family research. I seem to be drawing a blank in my efforts, so does anyone happen to know where I could get my hands on a list of poisons (deadly ones, that is) which would have been openly available in England in about 1925-28?
Any guidance welcome ;D
Mike
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I have a vague stirring in my mind that there was a "Poisons Act" which meant that certain substances were not allowed to be sold" over the counter" in Chemist`s etc, Google it and you may find some info. Usually RootsChatters are very informative on these matters. Best of luck. Viktoria.
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Thanks Viktoria - your prompt has led me to the Pharmacy and Poisons Act 1933, which in turn refers out to the Poisons List. Now for the search to find a 1928 version of that!
Mike
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What are you up to, Mike? Sounds intriguing ;)
Meanwhile, I suspect it would've been that '33 act that restricted some of the 'better' stuff. Only, I'm reasonably sure that ~ around the period ye have ear marked ~ people were still able and willing to buy anything from strychnine downwards as, or as part of commercially prepared, rat baits and similar things.
Remember also that the restriction of such stuff doesn't make it go away over night. I have an old tin here in which phosphorus based rat bait was sold. Still got a tiny square of bread in it. I'm not eating that bread! :o
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I'm sure we used to have poisons at home in the 1940s and 1950s. They were in green ridged bottles, so that blind people would know the ridged bottle contained poison. Not sure why they were green, maybe something to do with keeping the poison in the dark.
Lizzie
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Great, aren't they, Lizzie? Cobalt blue was the other colour most often used.
I've seen them also with a skull and cross bones, even a dead rat embossed on them.
The tins I have are of a stuff sold under the trade name of " Rodine ". I have their Red Squill and their Phosphorus tins here. I know they also did an Arsenic based one and most probably Strychnine too.
Brings it all a bit into focus, when ye consider one of these tins (or the cardboard box they came in) is labelled, " Boots " ! :o
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If people wanted poison they could always boil fly papers---those sticky long strips of impregnated paper that unrolled from a carton tube. I think it was strychnine but not sure. Oxalic acid was used to get those brown iron mould stains out of laundry--not sold now much too dangerous!You can get it from rhubarb leaves though.They are poisonous.
Cyanide is in kernels of many fruit stones like peaches, almonds, plums and even apple pips.
Arsenic was used to colour wallpaper especially green colours and gilt decoration. It deteriorated after a time and airborne particles were floating about all over the place. There`s a theory that that`s what killed Napoleon. The damp air on the island affected the colours on the wallpaper and the rest is history!
Laburnum seeds, holly berries ,foxglovesand even very fresh conkers too.
Do let us know why you wanted the info, I`m all agog with noseyness!Viktoria.
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They must have been easily obtainable or Agatha Christie would have been a bit short on ideas ;D
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OK - I'll come clean(ish). I've discovered the very early death of a young woman, and am told that she killed herself by drinking poison. Her husband (by whom she fell pregnant when she was barely 16 and not yet married) apparently had an eye for the ladies because at exactly the same time as the birth of their middle child, his girlfriend also gave birth to a child. The lady died at 22, husband promptly married girlfriend, and they carried on to have several more children (one of them my stepfather). Everyone concerned is now dead.
Now, as I'm sure you can imagine, that has my nose twitching all over the place. Drinking poison usually results in a spectacularly awful death unless the poison is very carefully chosen - but this girl was certainly no chemist. There were many other suicide methods open to her, most of them much less painful. However, assuming this was a genuine suicide, it would mean that she would have had to recognise whatever she took as a fatal poison and it would have had to be openly available. Hence my initial question.
I don't have to tell you what the alternative to suicide is, do I? This has all the makings of a case fit for Poirot. But before I go charging off looking for the report on the inquest, I just wanted to get a few basics inside my head.
Oh, the joys of genealogy!
EDIT: Just in case anyone develops a natural curiosity, I would rather deal with any personal details via PM - there are other children of the second marriage who are still alive and, on the off chance that they're reading this, I wouldn't wish to upset any of them.
Mike
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My money's on Laudanum ;)
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My money's on Laudanum ;)
Yep - that was my first thought, Steve. But I cannot for the life of me find out when it became a controlled substance. Any ideas?
Mike
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I have a person who commited sucicide this way too.
it cant have been nice surely the person would be retching
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Outright banned in 1928, from what I can see, Mike.
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Of course, it would be 1928, wouldn't it? Why make life simple? ::)
On the other hand, a 1928 ban would mean that a lot of people had laudanum on their shelves until 1930. OK, I'll assume laudanum for the time being and cogitate a little more.
Mike
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Well Laudanum is an opiate, so the same family as morphine. I think Laudanum was its commercial name. The Victorians used it widely and even gave it to babies when teething. It calmed, relieved pain and promoted sleep. However it was accumulative and gradually built up in the body so a fatal dose could be taken without any intention to commit suicide. Lots of eminent Victorians were addicted to it, Wilkie Collins, Elizabeth Barrett-Browning ,to name but two .
It could be bought just as any other product from the Chemist. I don`t know if it had to be entered in a book as some substances were.
Isn`t this an interesting topic . Very considerate to think about surviving relatives.Cheerio. Viktoria.
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My Dad was a dispensing chemist and I'm hazy on the detail but I remember he had a poison book where all poisons sold had to be entered up and all poisons and drugs were kept under lock and key. He practised from 1933 until he retired in his 70s.
I have some old pharmacy recipe books dating from late 19th C - they keep cropping up on various threads. This thread has prompted me to look at them just now and have found a recipe for Infant's Whooping Cough Mixture containing Belladonna - that's deadly nightshade, there's a 'Pick-Me-Up' containing 'Tinct. Opii' that I assume is an opiate - Tinc. Opii is used a lot, Tinct. Digitalis (foxglove) for asthma and heart problems, morphine is used a lot in cough and chest remedies.
Also, on a seasonal note, I have just found a recipe for making fireworks ;D. Perhaps this doesn't help much with Mike's query but I thought it might be of interest.
Maggie
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my aunt was a pharmacist, and when she retired she brought some old poison bottles with her to her home, to remind her of her pharmacy days.
- on my mantelpiece, I have a beautiful blue bottle, labelled "Tinct. Nucis. Vom." ... it's my pride and joy - it's empty, I hasten to add!
eadaoin
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Eadaoin - my bottles live on my dresser and are green ridged ones. My brother got the only blue one. I have four, and on their red labels it says:-
Tinct: Opii
Tinct: Colchici Poison
Liq: Arsenic: Hyd
Liq: Ammon:
They came from my Dad's pharmacy along with several white glass bottles and some huge brass weighing scales and I wouldn't part with them for the world.
Maggie
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A little more information ... possession of laudanum (or any other opium derivative) without a prescription was outlawed by the Dangerous Drugs Act of 1920.
So, I now think it unlikely that the lady in question had that substance available in 1928 (and, if it had been prescribed for her, would the family have used the phrase "drank poison" to describe her action?). If it wasn't a medicinal substance, then that leaves only the nasties - rat poison etc. Not at all nice.
Her youngest child was born Q3 1927, and she died Q4 1928 - does anyone think post-natal depression could have been a factor, or is the gap too big?
Mike
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Hi Mike,
I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder whether post natal depression could be a factor. It would have happened just over a year after the birth of her youngest child - have I read that right? As I understand it post natal depression can take some time to kick in, also in 1928 it would not be recognised and dealt with as it is today, although even today it can go unrecognised.
The poor lady could well have been suffering in silence, without much help and support for months.
Maggie
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eadaoin
re #16 - Did you know that your blue bottle contained nux vomica i.e. strychnine? It is still used in homeopathic and mainstream medicine, but presumably the dosage is carefully controlled.
Gillg
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Lysol was used quite often for suicide, easy to get, dreadful way to die though
James
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There were various household cleaning agents available which were pretty vicious. Doing away with oneself by drinking something like ammonia was not unheard of - I have heard it described as "the woman's way out". Not a quick death, nor an easy one, though.
Rachel
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Her youngest child was born Q3 1927, and she died Q4 1928 - does anyone think post-natal depression could have been a factor, or is the gap too big?
Post-natal depression can afflict mothers up to two years after delivery, so the gap is certainly not too big.
Any chance you're tempted to get that death cert? I'm sure I'm not the only one curious to find out what the cause of death was...
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Gillg
I knew it was Nux Vomica (worked in my aunt's shop Sundays and holidays), but didn't know that Nux Vom was strychnine.
eadaoin
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If it wasn't a medicinal substance, then that leaves only the nasties - rat poison etc. Not at all nice.
Oh, that's vile! Back in those days, we still used what's called 'Acute' Active Ingredients in Bait. The more modern Anti Coagulants weren't developed and Rat Catchers pretty much went with what they had and knew.
I haven't had time to indulge myself in reading up on such matters, lately. But, I suspect Strychnine was quite likely still readily available back then.
That she might have died with a grin on her face just doesn't bear thinking about :(
Please; Get that Cert. and put us all out of our misery. This is a real cliff hanger! Morbid minds ..... ;)
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Yes, it's certainly looking like I need documentation. But I suspect the Death Cert. may not tell me anything I don't already know. However, as it's more than 75 years ago, the Coroner's Report should be available and I'm fairly certain that would be in Sheffield Archives.
Anyone any idea of the requirements for this? Is it just a name and date I need to get a look at the report?
Mike
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The date of the inquest should be on that death cert. ;D
First check that Coroner's reports have survived - many of them have not. If not then head for local newspapers - they used to do some pretty graphic reporting on Coroner's hearings back then.
Christine
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Mike; Surely the DC would state something along the lines of, eg. " Cause of death: Strychnine Poisoning ~ Self administered ". Or, ' All manner of vile, physical Armageddon ' (However Strychnine poisoning is explained, medically), 'Due to self administration of' ..... what ever the poor girl took.
Granted; I'm yet to handle quite such a Cert. But the ones I've seen tend to be pretty precise as to what killed them. Sometimes we may need to red Google, to find what it all means, in layman's terms. But, it generally comes out in the wash.
Sod it! Look; The suspense is killing me here! If ye like; PM me the GRO Ref's and I'll send for the thing myself! Tell everyone else in a mass PM ;D
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Yes, Mike, we really, really need to know ;D
But only the report of the inquest is going to tell whether they considered the 'did she fall or was she pushed' scenario or just wrote the poor girl off.
Christine
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x
just leaving my mark, very interesting
perth :) :)
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For newspaper reports try asking the Sheffield Local Studies Library -
www.sheffield.gov.uk/libraries/archives-and-local-studies.
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I knew someone in the 80s who had a bottle of Nicotine. He used it for killing ants and he'd had it for years. It is truly amazing what was available back then.
Also fascinated. :D
Paul
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Under the stairs at home mum had the "medicine chest",it contained things like, iodine, for painting your throat when it was sore( outside) and wound cleansing.Permagnate of potash( looked like iron filings but went a spectacular magenta colour in water) dad bathed his feet in it -had trench foot in WW1. Liniment which was for aching backs,Sloan`s Liniment ditto.Wintergreen ointment, Germoline,
Ipececuanha(think thats the spelling),coughs and sore throats .Sundry bandages and cotton wool and everything must have been years out of date . Mum`s best medicine was to tell us to" stop thinking about it and it will go away" . It worked and it was free with no unpleasant side effects.
The power of suggestion! Cheerio. Viktoria.
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Good Grief! I go away for one day, and look what happens ;D
Yes - stupid me. Of course I need the Death Cert., otherwise no inquest date (so I'll be sending off for it early next week, if you can all hold your breath until then.
In the meantime, I shall be looking into the life of one Harriet Ann Cranidge - that's her maiden name - (born Q3 1870 at Thorne) who is very likely to be the mother of the victim and who seems to disappear from the face of the earth after the death of her husband, George, in 1909 (marriage Q2 1898 at Doncaster).
Mike
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Interesting thread...I am also leaving my mark so as to receive updates.
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Yes - stupid me. Of course I need the Death Cert., otherwise no inquest date (so I'll be sending off for it early next week, if you can all hold your breath until then.
Lets just hope it doesn't get caught up with the postal strikes :(. I'm also enthralled by this thread.
Jean
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Me also - do keep us posted Mike :D
Maggie
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If I were free I'd offer to go to Sheffield archives for you! But sadly i've a busy spell coming up!
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Shocking, isn't it? Some unfortunate young woman most likely inflicts a hideous death upon herself. And half the forum's rubber necking like ghouls! ;D
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Shocking, isn't it? Some unfortunate young woman most likely inflicts a hideous death upon herself. And half the forum's rubber necking like ghouls! ;D
Well it's nearly Halloween after all :)
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i am 62 and my sister gave her son ( 60 ) parogoric to help with teething problems bought from the chemist on his advice i was also given it to help me sleep. It wasn't until we were adults that it became known it was a poison ,so maybe there was a mistake in the verdict. But how many young people even now , know about poisons . I certainly did'nt . although i can remember my sister telling us about it in tears .
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I remember when on one of the very few occasions I asked my mother in law to baby sit for us, my baby was asleep in bed and would not have woken up until his ten o`clock feed was due and we were going to be back by then. However she woke baby up and took him a walk, couldn`t get him back to sleep so went to the off licence- which was open late and sold everything -,and bought some STEEDMAN`S powders. She gave him one --or two, we never established how many. Thank god he was violently sick and all his nightgown and bedding were stained bright magenta pink otherwise I would not have known( because she would not have told me,) maybe I could have given him something myself and that would have been an overdose .I could not get her to see how dangerouse it was, I did not want him woken up when he was settled and I did not want her to give medicine without my say so for obvious safety reasons. That was 52 years ago and it rankles yet. The next week in the newspapers there was a report about these powders because they contained either arsenic or strychnine and how dangerous they were and they had been withdrawn after many years of use .. Paregoric is camphorated tincture of opium- Phew! Viktoria.
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Slight delay for those on the edge of their seats - I discovered I had no postal application forms left :D
30 more are winging their way here.
Mike
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??? Postal Application Forms, Mike? Don't ye just log onto the GRO and order them from ye key board?
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Oh, I wish! Unfortunately, my OH has a pathological suspicion of doing such things on the net - something which I find difficult to argue against and, for the sake of domestic harmony, wouldn't dream of trying to do so ;D
So, snail mail it must be.
(for those of you who don't know, if you do it by post you must first request the official application forms from GRO - they'll send you up to ten of each type - B, M, or D - in one go: thirty in all).
Mike
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In the 'olden days' before you could order from GRO online you could print out application forms from their site. Can't you do that any more?
Christine
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Apparently not, Christine - certainly I've seen nothing about that (and they make a very strong point that the application form must be an original, not a copy of any kind). Possibly people began printing out their own versions??? and fouled up the system.
Never mind - slow it may be, but it will still get the required results ;)
Mike
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Forms received, application made.
Mike
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'waits with baited breath.....' I've been following this thread, it's really interesting ;D
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Mike; Surely the DC would state something along the lines of, eg. " Cause of death: Strychnine Poisoning ~ Self administered ". Or, ' All manner of vile, physical Armageddon ' (However Strychnine poisoning is explained, medically), 'Due to self administration of' ..... what ever the poor girl took.
Granted; I'm yet to handle quite such a Cert. But the ones I've seen tend to be pretty precise as to what killed them. Sometimes we may need to red Google, to find what it all means, in layman's terms. But, it generally comes out in the wash.
Sod it! Look; The suspense is killing me here! If ye like; PM me the GRO Ref's and I'll send for the thing myself! Tell everyone else in a mass PM ;D
Mike, I can confirm what Steve G said in his post. The latest death certificate I have received from the GRO online ordering spells out the cause of death as "Suicide by Lysol poisoning whilst temporarily insane. No P.M." This was for the death of a young woman [an ancestral relative] in 1933 just months after she married!!!.
So yes, fork out the seven quid and buy the DC. It also spells out the date of the inquest in Nottingham. I have not yet tried to get the inquest or coroners report [hard for me in Australia!!!]. As I understand it Lysol was a readily available disinfectant and was certainly used for suicide purposes.
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Mike:
Are you able to share the contents of the certificate with us now? And did you find anything out about the mysterious Harriet Cranidge?
Rachel
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Aaaarrggghhhhh!
I've just read through this whole thread and now am on the edge of my seat wanting to know the outcome!!
I fear we may never know, Mike hasn't been on RootsChat since November last year according to his profile.
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Oh woe - let's hope a "topic reply" message in his e-mail encourages him to reappear!
Rachel
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Can we all send him an email with sound to make sure he gets it i 'm dying of curiosity never mind poison