RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: corisande on Sunday 25 October 09 12:49 GMT (UK)
-
Can anyone help me here. I am researching the Irish Brigade that Sir Roger Casement set out to recruit in POW camps in Germany from irish prisoners
One was this colourful character Henry Timothy Quinlsik who ended up executed in February 1920 in Cork by Thomas McCurtain as an alleged British spy.
Timothy (Henry Timothy) Quinlisk was in the Royal Irish Rifle Regt, was taken prisoner in France, and whilst in Limburg Camp joined Casement's Irish Brigade. He was a Sergeant. Came back to Ireland and was suspected of being an English spy, and was executed in Cork
I have his Medal Index Card, but little else seems to exist on his life
-
Hi,
The IGI gives a Timothy Quinlisk, born 26 Apr 1871 in Ireland to Timothy Quinlisk and Fanny McGrath. This was an extracted record.
Regards
-
Thanks
There is a birth record though that is more likely to be him, born Wexford 1895 (Oct - Dec 1895, ref vol 4 page 654)
He appears to have been under 20 when Casement came across him in Limburg POW camp
He also appears to have gone to a Christian Brothers school and to be of “of a R.I.C. stock" which almost looks like a contradiction in terms.
-
found this, thought it might be of interest.
.....ex-British Army Quartermaster Sergeant Harry Timothy Quinlisk, from Waterford , Ireland, made it his business to mix in Irish Republican circles ; Michael Collins refused his request to join the IRA as a training officer , and Quinlisk then contacted the British Under-Secretary , claimimg to have information on Collins and the IRA ; there was a £10,000 reward on offer from the British for information leading to the capture of Collins , and Quinlisk was determined to claim it ......
A meeting was duly arranged at Dublin Castle between the representatives of the British administration in Ireland and Quinlisk - however , the IRA had people working for them in the Castle and were notified immediately that Quinlisk had been in contact with the British Under-Secretary. An IRA investigation into the contacts uncovered a telegram and a copy of a despatch which confirmed that Quinlisk was an informer ; arrangements were made to deal with him .
In February , 1920, Quinlisk was 'inadvertently' made aware that Michael Collins was staying in Cork , and went there himself to confirm it ; on 18th February , 1920, IRA Volunteers from Ballyphehane in County Cork shot him dead .
regards mary.
-
Mary
Thanks for that - it is interesting to see the spin that the two sides put on him.
He was in fact a British Corporal, and a Quartermaster Sargent in Casements Irish Brigade. The Ira certainly had a man on the inside, who got to know about Quinlisk's approach.
Depending on what you read Collins either liked the man or hated him!
As with most of these events at this time to separate spin from truth is difficult, but it all helps to add a picture as to what was going on with him.
-
I am back into Casement's Irish Brigade, and have been going over my notes.
Following Paul suggesting in my thread on Kehoe/Keogh that there was information on the special branch files, I found Quinlisk there, and there are extensive newspaper cuttings on his death, which has been useful to me.
There seems very little brought together about Casements Irish Brigade, so every little bit helps
-
Look up 1911 Census for Waterford, 12 Cathedral Square, for family.
Timothy Quinlisk was shot dead by Mick Murphy and others of "B" Co. 1st Cork Brigade IRA 18 Feb 1920 in townland of Ballyphehane, just outside Cork City. His remains were taken to the County Union initially and interred in the Pauper's Cemetery, Carr's Hill. Some time later Timothy's father, Denis Joseph, claimed his remains and they were taken to either Waterford or Wexford.
-
Thanks for that help. Perhaps you can help me with three follow up questions
1. I have seen Thomas McCurtain as being responsible for his death. Was this the son of the murdered Lord Mayor of Cork, and was he part of B Coy. Or was it Mick Murphy the shot Quinlisk, and McCurtain had nothing to do with it?
2. I have also read that Quinlisk.s father and grandfather were "of RIC stock". Were they in the RIC? I guess I can get that from the RIC lists if you do not know.
3. The story about Quinlisk, extensively quoted in the Irish press, after the body was found, was given by an Dublin Fusilier Private soldier who had been in the Irish Brigade with Quinlisk. His name was never reported but it has to be 1 of 6 men. Do you know who it was?
-
on the 1911 census denis joseph quinlisk occ. r.i constabulary act.sergt.
regards mary.
-
Thanks Mary.
His grandfather appears to be dead by 1911, in as much as I cannot find a suitable Quinlsk in 1911 census
If anyone can help further with any information on Quinlisk and does not want to post here, then please PM me.
-
Tomas MacCurtain, Lord Mayor of Cork was killed by the RIC in his own home on 20 March 1920, on his 36th birthday. His son also Tomas was only 3 or 4 at the time. The Lord Mayor did not shoot Quinlisk. Mick Murphy said he did it in his statement to Bureau of Military History.
There are a few Quinlisk names in the list of members of the RIC.
Re your 3rd point I dont know what "story about Quinlisk" you refer to.
-
mefein again.
Patrick Walsh of Kilmacow, Co. Kilkenny, went to Wales to work in the mines in 1913. On outbreak of WW1 he joined Northumberland Fusiliers, was captured and sent to POW camp, escaped and recaptured twice and badly beaten twice. During 1916 in Pow camp was offered freedom if he returned to Dublin to fight in Rising. Did not take up the offer. When he returned home after WW1 he saw a photo of Roger Casement and realised this was the man who approached him in POW camp. He died on Armistice Day 1967.
-
Hi
Thanks for those bits, it all helps wth the picture
This is a copy of the newspaper report on the RDF POW who was in Casement's Irish Brigade, and who gave this report to the papers after the body was recovered.
(http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/quinlisk-paper.jpg)
Afraid its a bad copy, as its not my copy, its just what I have been sent. But you can probably get enough to get the sense of it.
-
Thanks for the clarification on Mick Murphy
My reference to McCurtain comes from
http://www.drb.ie/more_details/08-09-28/He_Could_Tell_You_Things.aspx
which is a review of Casement's biography
Roger Casement: Imperialist, Rebel, Revolutionary, by Séamas Ó Síocháin, Lilliput Press, 656 pp, €40, ISBN: 978-1843510215
I cannot claim to have read the biography, just the review
I realise now the Quinlisk died 18 Feb 1920, and Tom McCurtain, the Lord Mayor, was shot a month later. So could he have been involved?
-
In Tomas MacCurtain's role as one of the leaders of the Volunteers he may have been aware of Quinlisk and may have OKd his removal, but where is the evidence? In my opinion he was otherwise engaged in the day job.
Let me paraphrase Mick Murphy's statement made in 1956.
The Council of No1. Cork Brigade, leader Sean O'Hegarty, decide Quinlisk was to be shot. MM says it occurred on 25 Feb 1920 but the correct date is 18 Feb 1920. MM met Q by agreement the latter was asked to assemble a Hotchkiss gun and there would be £10 in it for Q. Later that night a man named Keyes brought Q to Curragh Road. Frank Mahony 2nd Battalion Intelligence Officer and Jimmy Walsh, local Captain turned up with MM.Keyes was sent home. The others walked through fields in the dark supposedly heading for the cottage wher the Hotchkiss was.MM stuck his .45 Colt in Q's back and ordered hands up. They searched him taking letters, cigarette case and newspaper cutting. "We shot him standing there". As it was approaching curfew the decided to leave but MM thought he would check, went back and hit Q with the butt of his Colt, the body moved, MM turned him over and put a bullet through his forehead. That night following a raid on the mails they found a letter from Q addressed to the County Inspector, RIC, stating Q had been in touch with a prominent IRA officer "meaning me, I suppose" who had told him Michael Collins was in Clonakilty Co Corkand this IRA officer was to introduce Collins to Q. when Collins arrived in Cork City.
Among the documents found on Q was a letter to the RIC saying Q had information on Collins and would be in touch again. In his cigarette case was a cutting from a Wexford paper"Daring rescue from the Nore". - a boy had been rescued from the River Nore by a John Quinlisk.
All this data was notified to GHQ in Dublin. Word came back that one of Collins's sources in Dublin Castlehad found Q's application for service as an agent of Dublin Castle and also his acceptance as such by the Castle.
The local newspaper in Cork City carried accounts of the shooting and the inquest held on 20 Feb 1920. By which time Q's identity was still not known
Throughout all this time MM thought his name was Quinn, the name he used in two Cork hotels.
-
Hi
Thanks for all that information, it gives me a much clearer idea as to what happened to Quinlsik
Amazing really that Mick Murphy put it all on the record.
-
I found more on Quinlisk in my local evening paper Evening Echo 22 Feb 2010. Article by military historians Gerry White and Brendan O'Shea entitled "The Execution of Quinlisk".Included is a photo of NCOs of Casement's Irish Brigade in Zossen, Germany in 1915 Cpl. Peter Golden, Sgt. Major Keogh, Cpl. O'Mahony, Sgt. Daniel Julien Bailey (alias Beverley) interpreter Zerhussen, Cpl. Kavanagh, Cpl. O'Callaghan and QMS Timothy Quinlisk. Also the Irish Brigade's Declaration.I dont have the knowhow to scan and attach these to you.
The article says that the overwhelming majority of Irish-born prisoners who were approached by Casement refused to have anything to do with him. 55 eventually agreed to join, not enough to form an active entity. Quinlisk continued to try to entice others to join up.
After Casements execution in 1916 the Irish Brigade were taken to Berlin where they were confined until the end of the war. They were returned to England where they were interrogated.
Quinlisk got to Dublin in Summer 1919, started using the name Quinn. Tried to join the Republican movement through a Republican Robert Brennan who knew the Quinlisk family. He ingratiated himself by suggesting schemes to procure arms and by repeatedly trying to get into Michael Collins inner circle. He was viewed with suspicion because of his cavalier attitude and his popularity with the ladies. As winter approached he had failed to get employment and he had failed to gain acceptance into the Republican movement so he decided to switch his allegiance. Then through the various sources at Collins disposal they realised where they stood re Quinlisk.
-
Hi
Thanks again for that article in the Evening Echo.
I do have the photo of Casements NCOs and their declaration. Not many photos exist, and as far as I know there is only the one.
I have a web page on Quinlisk here (http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/Pows/casement/recruits/quinlisk.html), which pulls together all that I have on the man. The photo of Quinlisk is extracted from that group photo.
Gerry White and Brendan O'Shea wrote the Burning of Cork (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Burning-Cork-Gerry-White/dp/1856355225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268254825&sr=1-1). So maybe they are aiming to write a book on Quinlisk one day
-
Thank you for that. I found your website most interesting. Carry on with the good work. Do you intend to research all 55? Not many people in Ireland knew Casement tried to form the Irish Brigade.
-
Do you intend to research all 55? Not many people in Ireland knew Casement tried to form the Irish Brigade.
I have started with the "easiest" members of the Irish Brigade to research, and will try to cover all of them.
Some of it is difficult as all I have is a name to go on, and the name will be a common Irish name, so is difficult to pin down. I am happy that the list that I have of all the members of the Irish brigade (http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/Pows/casement/recruits-irish-brigade.html) is (almost) correct
It is a subject that is quite difficult to get information, without people on either side getting upset for one reason or another
-
A United Press report that I have now been given, was published 6 days after Quinlisk's death.
I have added it to my page on Quinlisk (http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/Pows/casement/recruits-irish-brigade.html)
It is interesting that they had that report so quickly from whoever in the IRA was giving them information. As with all things in the press, it is difficult to know what spin has been put on the report.
(http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/Pows/casement/recruits/quinlisk/newpaper-article.jpg)
-
That is surely a spin. Mick Murphy said nothing about a courtmartial. I don't think a courtmartial was held in the field in Ballyphehane. If you find any members of the Irish Brigade from Cork let me know.
-
And if Quinlisk stood in the middle, I dont think he would have gone off with Mick Murphy etc. as he did.
-
Fascinating stuff.
55 eventually agreed to join, not enough to form an active entity.
Is that a quote from Casement or are you paraphrasing what was said?
I ask the question because we are talking about the phase in Irish history when the old ideas of military confrontation (on a grand scale) were dying and the birth of modern Guerilla Tactics was in its infancy.
If I interpret your comment correctly, it would seem that Casement was of the 'Old School'?
Do I read you correctly?
Dara.
-
it would seem that Casement was of the 'Old School'
I do not think that in any way did Casement try to form a "guerrilla" brigade. The intention was to uniform and arm them as "conventional" soldiers
I have never really understood the thing that Irishmen of all complexions at that time had with uniforms, but Casement spent a fortune on the uniforms of the Irish Brigade. And when you look at the Volunteer Uniforms of the time. You could almost say that Orangemen were dowdy in comparison!
-
Please can someone explain the details on Quinlisk's card
14/Star Retd.(1743 K.R. 1912) 8153/Adt.
and
Qualifying date 13.8.19
and
items in the Stamped - Medal etc.
-
The "qualifying date is 13 Aug 1914, that means that he landed in France on that date. To be eligible for the 1914 Star the soldier had to spend so many days in a "war zone" in that year. So they recorded when he arrived
The items in the stamped section are references to the actual entries for those medals, each one has its own book with more date - the card is just an index card pointing to where the "real" data is stored.
Any soldier who served overseas was entitled to the British Medal and Victory medal, The criteria were very loose, and literally millions qualified.
The 1914 Star appears to have been returned for adjustment - someone with more knowledge than I can tell you the exact bit of the Kings Regulations quoted. You may have to put your own post in the WW1 forum on Rootschat to find someone that can tell you.
-
Thank you very much for thatdata re medals card.
I'm not quite sure that Quinlisk's remains were taken back by his father to Wateford or Wexford. Local newspapers in Waterford say the father applied at Cork Union for an exhumation order and was told it would have to go to the Viceroy for a decision. The father was allowed visit the grave on condition that no expense was incurred by the Union. I'm hoping to search our local Archives for any record.
-
Odd thing too about the death is that I cannot find a death cert for Quinlisk.
You cannot help by any chance with the death of another of Casement's recruits, Jeremiah O'Callaghan, who was shot in odd circumstances in Mallow in Aug 1922
I have a thread here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,444868.0.html
And the info page on Jeremiah O'Callaghan is here (http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/Pows/casement/recruits/o%27callaghan-2.html)
I have done all my web pages on the Casement recruits as individual pages, to collate information more easily
-
Cork Poor Law Union - Board Of Guardians' Minute Book 152 page 508, March 1920 "I submit letter received on 2nd instant and signed by D.J.Quinlisk, 5 Rose Lane, Waterford, stating that he has applied for permission to exhume the body of his son (Timothy A. Quinlisk) found shot at Ballyphehane on the 18th ult. on order from the Relieving Officer Ryan. He will be grateful for any help that may be given in carrying out the disinterrment.
Order;- Permission granted, subject to the usual legal formalities being complied with".
Liam de Roiste was a prominent politician in Cork at this time. His diary entry for Feb 21 1920 includes "-- the shooting of an unknown man at a place called Ballyphehane on the southern side of the city. He was apparently shot by a number of men. At the inquest his name was given as Quinn and evidently he was a stranger in Cork. One rumour has it that he was a spy and that his shooting was an execution."
-
Odd thing too about the death is that I cannot find a death cert for Quinlisk.
So is your view that if a death cert was ever issued, it was for an "unknown male".
I cannot see anything under either Quinlisk or Quinn for that date as a registered death.
-
Yes, that is my view. Also in connection with the exhumation it is clear that permission was granted to the father so the remains probably went to Waterford.
I note that Mrs Alice Quinlisk had died in 1911 (after Census day). I saw on CWGC site re Michael Quinlisk killed 15.10.1914, that she was deceased. There is a death registered in 1921 for a Denis Joseph, could this be the father? This family went through very tough times.
-
Hello Dick(mefein),
This Patrick Walsh of Kilmacow, Kilkenny was my great-grandfather on my father, Derek Donnelly's side. I have enjoyed reading your post about him! I'll . info to my records.
I have also noticed your posts regarding the Donnelly family in Passage East, Waterford, Ireland. They are my family, too. My grandfather and beyond him were born there. I would like to make contact with you and be able to share family history information. I was in Ireland 2 years ago and met up with your brother Finnbarr in Cork. He talked over the family tree with me. it was exciting! I found out that your great grandad Jack Donnelly (my great,great grandad) was always called Daddy Jack by his grandchildren. Is this because he had a grandson named Jack Donnelly, also a River Pilot (older brother of my grandfather, Eddie Donnelly)?
I live in Idaho in the USA, but still make visits back to Ireland occasionally.
Looking forward to making contact with you.
Cathy
-
Hello Dick(mefein),
This Patrick Walsh of Kilmacow, Kilkenny was my great-grandfather on my father, Derek Donnelly's side. I have enjoyed reading your post about him! I'll add this info to my records. Thank you.
I have also noticed your posts regarding the Donnelly family in Passage East, Waterford, Ireland. They are my family, too. My grandfather and beyond him were born there. I would like to make contact with you and be able to share family history information. I was in Ireland 2 years ago and met up with your brother Finnbarr in Cork. He talked over the family tree with me. it was exciting! I found out that your great grandad Jack Donnelly (my great,great grandad) was always called Daddy Jack by his grandchildren. Is this because he had a grandson named Jack Donnelly, also a River Pilot (older brother of my grandfather, Eddie Donnelly)?
I live in Idaho in the USA, but still make visits back to Ireland occasionally.
Looking forward to making contact with you.
Cathy
mefein again.
Patrick Walsh of Kilmacow, Co. Kilkenny, went to Wales to work in the mines in 1913. On outbreak of WW1 he joined Northumberland Fusiliers, was captured and sent to POW camp, escaped and recaptured twice and badly beaten twice. During 1916 in Pow camp was offered freedom if he returned to Dublin to fight in Rising. Did not take up the offer. When he returned home after WW1 he saw a photo of Roger Casement and realised this was the man who approached him in POW camp. He died on Armistice Day 1967.
-
Hello mefein,
This Patrick Walsh of Kilmacow, Co. Kilkenny is my great, grandfather on my father, Derek Donnelly's side. Pleased to meet you on this site! Hope we can make contact.
I have information on the Donnelly side of the family that you may be missing.
Regards,
Cathy