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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: RWWH on Sunday 25 October 09 00:38 BST (UK)
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I am seeking assistance for information on the parents of -
Phoebe SMITH. Born 04 Aug 1871, Karaka, New Zealand.
Died 12 Jun 1946, Heidelberg, Victoria, Australia.
I believe her fathers name was George, other than that, l have no further information.
Regards
Ronald
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Hi There and a warm welcome to Rootschat
I have had a look at our BDM on line index and no parents are listed for Phoebe SMITH.
1871 # 9481 SMITH Phoebe
This is the link to our BDM index
http://bdmhistoricalrecords.identityservices.govt.nz/search/
You would be best to order a printout rather than a certificate for family history purposes and this should have her parents nemes on it.
Was just wondering if she married in New Zealand or Australia?
Newbe
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Hi,Phoebe came to Australia at approximatly 2-3 yeares of age with her parents'
She was married I believe in Sydney, at the age of 16 yrs to Horace Warner Hastings.
So far I (their grandson ) have not been able to get positive proof of this.Maybe they
did not bother? Sydney has no record of a marriage.
Ronald
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A possibility is that the parents are George and Mary Ann
this is going from another donated certificate (NZSG index) for a Frederick George Smith born 20 Oct 1870 Karaka, Thames.
?where you got the Karaka ref from and have you found their passage to aus to check for siblings?
YOu can see at Kae's goldminer site that there are George Smiths at the Karaka
http://www.kaelewis.com/database/gold/searchpage.htm
and 1869 Electoral roll has a George at the Karaka
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~althea/1869%20Franklin%20electoral%20roll%20Thames%20area%20full.htm
Bye
Althea
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Re:New Zealand birth Phoebe SMITH
Phoebe's Death Certificate, in my possession shows her parents as James and Phoebe.
This info. would have come through her daughter Myrtle (my aunt) who she lived with at the time of her passing. James is listed as a painter and I have found a seaman under that name and trade, who regularly sailed from NZ to Sydney Australia from the age of 19 to 22 yrs.
I will follow this further. By the way I am 89 yrs.old so I have clear memories of my Grand Parents. I only wish I had asked more questions of them.
.
Regards Ronald
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Hi Ronald, well done, pity you are not a NZer we could learn alot from your own knowledge of history. Yes sadly most of us have never taken the time to ask our seniors about their histopry and for many too late.
Sorry I got on to the George, from your first post. So you have her parents Names.
There is a James Smith living up the Karaka 1869
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~althea/1869%20Franklin%20electoral%20roll%20Thames%20area%20full.htm
I wonder if they could have married in NZ and just come to Thames for the gold.
Have you tracked the deaths of James and Phoebe in Australia?
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Hi Althea Since our last contact I have come to the conclusion that in fact Phoebe,s
parents were in fact George Smith Sarah Smith nee Lawrence. On checking thier offspring I find a Daughter born at the correct date of Phoebe,s birth.Dont ask me how the death certificate showed otherwise, but as a lot of the info.only comes at a very stressful time
maybe my aunts details were a bit astray. Having gone through this myself last January
after the loss of my wife after 64 years together, I can understand the problem.
Best wishes and thanks for your help Ronald
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George H. Smith b 1835 Wapping, Middlesex, England
died Mar 31, 1875 Port Chalmers, Otago, New Zealand
Sarah Ann Smith nee Lawrence b Oct 23, 1834, Southward, London, England
parents of Sarah
George Lawrence b c1804, Hertfordshire & Caroline Adkinson Sep 17, 1807, Knightsbridge, London, England
further ancestry of these available by request
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I'd like to update this posting.
Phoebe SMITH, according to her death certificate, was born in New Zealand in 1874. Her parents were James SMITH and Phoebe (maiden name unknown). Her father James occupation was recorded as a painter. The certificate also confirmed that she married my great grandfather, Horace Warner Hastings in Sydney, allegedly at age 16 which would have made it 1890. There is no record of marriage, no record of birth and no record regarding immigration to Australia. I don't know where to turn. Help.
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Hi Tensixty6,
I'll move your topic back to the New Zealand Board so more people will see it and hopefully offer advice.
Spades
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I'd like to update this posting.
Phoebe SMITH, according to her death certificate, was born in New Zealand in 1874. Her parents were James SMITH and Phoebe (maiden name unknown). Her father James occupation was recorded as a painter. The certificate also confirmed that she married my great grandfather, Horace Warner Hastings in Sydney, allegedly at age 16 which would have made it 1890. There is no record of marriage, no record of birth and no record regarding immigration to Australia. I don't know where to turn. Help.
Has the death cert. for Horace Warner Hastings been obtained? If not it might be worth a try and see what marriage details were noted on his.
Also has the birth cert. for the first born child of Phoebe's been obtained? Would be interesting to see what information is noted on that concerning Phoebe.
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HASTINGS HORACE ERNEST : Service Number - V80355 : Date of birth - 12 Jan 1890 : Place of birth - BALLARAT VIC : Place of enlistment - MELBOURNE VIC : Next of Kin - HASTINGS PHOEBE
Appears from the above they were in Ballarat before 1890 so if they did marry in NSW it was before 1890.
Thats if the above record is the have the right family.
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HASTINGS HORACE ERNEST : Service Number - V80355 : Date of birth - 12 Jan 1890 : Place of birth - BALLARAT VIC : Place of enlistment - MELBOURNE VIC : Next of Kin - HASTINGS PHOEBE
Appears from the above they were in Ballarat before 1890 so if they did marry in NSW it was before 1890.
Thats if the above record is the have the right family.
That ties in...Horace Ernest was the first born. Another family member wrote a life story which stated that Horace and Phoebe were married in Sydney in 1888. As you suggest, I'll try tracking down the death certificate for Horace and see where that leads. Many thanks.
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The death certificate for Horace Warner HASTINGS indicates that he was married to Phoebe SMITH for 22 years (at the time of his death in 1934). At that time, 9 of his 11 children had already been born. The first born, Horace Ernest would have been 22 years of age. Seems a bit odd.
How much emphasis does one place on the accuracy of certificates, be they birth, marriage or death?
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death cert/printouts can be very inaccurate as they are only as good as the informant,marriages are usually more accurate as the information is given by the couple marrying
Cheers Janette
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Hello Ronald,
The on line index for the NZ BDM index shows the birth registration for Phoebe SMITH, 1871.
Her parents recorded as Sarah Hannah & George SMITH. [Actual date of birth: 4.8.1871.]
The birth of a sibling in 1874; Sarah Hannah. Parents:Sarah Hannah & George SMITH.
website:
www.dia.govt.nz/births-deaths-and-marriages
Minniehaha.
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Hi Minniehaha
It's not Ronald. Ronald is my father, but never mind. I appreciate what you're saying about George and Sarah but I can only reiterate that Phoebe's death certificate states that her father's name was James and mother, Phoebe.
Regards
Christopher
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Hi Christopher,
Who was the informant of death on Horace's death cert?
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The informant was George Woodham. Authorized Agent. Royal Park Hospital for the Aged and Infirm.
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The informant was George Woodham. Authorized Agent. Royal Park Hospital for the Aged and Infirm.
Ok, that could explain if any information on the cert. is wrong. Sometimes info can be wrong if the informant didnt know them real well.
Have you tried Trove for any articles on the family? Little bits of info from the newspapers can sometimes also shed light onto a family.
Link for the Australian newspapers [free] below
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y
Link for the New Zealand newspapers [free]
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast
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I've tried the Australian ones, but not NZ. Thanks, will give it a go.
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My apologies Christopher. I noted the original poster of this topic was "RWWH" [Ronald]............
Minniehaha.
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Hello Christopher
Do you happen to have (VIC) birth certificates for any of the children of Phoebe and Horace HASTINGS ?
These might contain information as to the exact place in New Zealand where Phoebe was born and thus enable you to confirm whether in fact she was the child born at Karaka. [Her age at the time of each birth would also be recorded.]
[It seems doubtful that there was actually a legal marriage between Phoebe and Horace.]
~ Lu
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Hi Althea Since our last contact I have come to the conclusion that in fact Phoebe,s
parents were in fact George Smith Sarah Smith nee Lawrence. On checking thier offspring I find a Daughter born at the correct date of Phoebe,s birth.
Hi,Phoebe came to Australia at approximatly 2-3 yeares of age with her parents'
Ronald
Hi Christopher
Browsing the family trees at ancestry.com for George SMITH / Sarah Ann LAWRENCE (parents of a Phoebe SMITH b. 1871), I note there are trees also for the HASTINGS family containing similar info on this couple ?
The George SMITH concerned, appears to be the man who died accidentally at Port Chalmers (Dunedin, NZ) on 31 March 1875, aged about 54 years, leaving a widow and 7 children.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
The "Otago Daily Times" - 2 April 1875 -- and "Otago Witness" - 10 April 1875 - page 4 have details of the Inquest into his death.
Likewise there is also an inquest into the 1893 death of a Sarah Ann SMITH, reputedly aged about 59 years.
"Otago Daily Times" - 21 July 1893 - Sudden Death at Port Chalmers (also pub. "Otago Witness" 27 July 1893).
[Strangely the inquest report in the newspapers gives the testimony of a Thomas SMITH "husband of Sarah Ann". I think this was in fact her son (Thomas William?) as later in the report it mentions a Margaret SMITH, wife of Thomas SMITH and daughter-in-law of the deceased (Sarah Ann SMITH).]
George SMITH and Sarah Ann SMITH are buried together at Port Chalmers Cemetery, Dunedin.
[The cemetery record states that Sarah Ann was the "widow of George". ]
Link to cemetery records >
http://www.dunedin.govt.nz/facilities/cemeteries/cemeteries_search
So the question I guess, is, are these people the parents of your Phoebe SMITH and did they at some time, take their daughter to Australia ??
~ Lu
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I'd like to update this posting.
Phoebe SMITH, according to her death certificate, was born in New Zealand in 1874. Her parents were James SMITH and Phoebe (maiden name unknown). Her father James occupation was recorded as a painter. The certificate also confirmed that she married my great grandfather, Horace Warner Hastings in Sydney, allegedly at age 16 which would have made it 1890. There is no record of marriage, no record of birth and no record regarding immigration to Australia. I don't know where to turn. Help.
Christopher, who was the informant on Phoebe's death cert.? I was thinking since their death certificates appear not to have correct information on them i wonder if Pheobe was even born in NZ. With no marriage cert. available i agree with Lucy2 about maybe trying a birth cert. from one of their kids.
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I've obtained the birth certificate of my grandfather, Norman Hastings, who was born on 1891. He was the second of eleven children. His certificate indicates that Phoebe was born in Christchurch, New Zealand in 1874.
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Hi Christopher
Can you tell us please, the age listed for his mother Phoebe on that certificate ?
~ Lu
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Hi Christopher
Can you tell us please, the age listed for his mother Phoebe on that certificate ?
~ Lu
Greetings Lucy. Phoebe was 18.
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I am seeking assistance for information on the parents of -
Phoebe SMITH. Born 04 Aug 1871, Karaka, New Zealand.
Died 12 Jun 1946, Heidelberg, Victoria, Australia.
I believe her fathers name was George, other than that, l have no further information.
I can't see where in this thread that the death date of Phoebe HASTINGS, has been given ??
[Ancestry.com has it recorded as - Year: 1945 at Heidelberg, VIC. ]
The date of death < 12 June 1946 > given above earlier (by Ronald), does however relate to a death in Dunedin, New Zealand, of a Phoebe ERDMAN born c. 1872, who was formerly the "widow" of a Peter LAWSON. (No marriage found in NZ). {Burial at Port Chalmers Cemetery, Dunedin NZ}
This Phoebe ERDMAN has been "claimed" as the d/o George SMITH and Sarah Ann (or Hannah ) LAWRENCE in the Doherty-Dougherty Jan 2013 family tree showing on ancestry website. There is also a photo of her.
To spare duplication of information here, would suggest viewing the said tree on ancestry. ;)
[It seems that some info from Dougherty Tree has also been placed on the HASTINGS trees at same website ?? ]
My feeling is that this Phoebe (d/o George and Sarah Ann), is not the person you are seeking.
~ Lu
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Thanks Christopher ... and ooops sorry, I see you'd already given Phoebe's birth Year of 1874. :-[
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1945 is correct Lucy, the 17 July to be precise.
Lucy, if you were in my place, would you go with the George SMITH / Sarah Ann LAWRENCE option, it certainly would be the easiest choice? The other choice is to pursue the James SMITH / Phoebe (maiden name unknown) as per Phoebe SMITH'S (Hastings) death certificate?
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Currently waiting on a birth certificate for Phoebe SMITH, born to George SMITH and Sarah Hannah LAWRENCE in 1871. In some respects it's probably a waste of time because there's no way that l can conclude definitively that the Phoebe SMITH in question is the right one. Of the 3 Phoebe SMITH's born in New Zealand in the 1870's, it would seem the most likely, the other 2 being in 1879.
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Mmm ... I'm guessing that it's too late to cancel the purchase of that 1871 birth certificate ?
It might have been better to buy the NZ Death printout for the Phoebe ERDMAN who died 12 June 1946 at Dunedin - born circa 1872 (which should include the names of her parents).
As I pointed out earlier, this ERDMAN lady has already been "claimed" by a researcher of the Doherty-Dougherty family who connect to George SMITH and Sarah Ann (or Hannah) LAWRENCE.
It does appear very likely that she was the daughter of this couple.
~ Lu
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Never thought of doing it that way Lucy. Oh well, it's only money. I've just reached the point where l don't know where to turn. Might have to give up on Phoebe.
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1945 is correct Lucy, the 17 July to be precise.
Lucy, if you were in my place, would you go with the George SMITH / Sarah Ann LAWRENCE option, it certainly would be the easiest choice? The other choice is to pursue the James SMITH / Phoebe (maiden name unknown) as per Phoebe SMITH'S (Hastings) death certificate?
Sorry, I didn't get back to replying to above, earlier.
Yes ... I would have suggested not pursuing Phoebe (d/o George and Sarah Ann), further.
Or ... suggesting that if you have a subscription to the Ancestry website, then getting in contact with the owner of the Doherty-Dougherty Jan 2013, tree - who may have further information which might enable you to eliminate this 1871 Phoebe SMITH.
Maybe if you have another "spare" $20 or so ;D, purchasing the VIC birth record of the last-born child of Phoebe and Horace HASTINGS might be a worthwhile exercise ? That way you could obtain further verification of Phoebe SMITH's birthplace plus have confirmation of all of the children born to the couple. [ VIC BDM records contain a wealth of information - they truly are the "best". ]
It really is a pity that there is no "obvious" marriage record for these people.
I guess you already know that the images of historic BDM records for Victoria are available for purchase and immediate download from the VIC BDM website ?
I'll get back a little later with some further explanations regarding your search.
~ Lu