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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey Lookup Requests => Surrey => England => Surrey Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: jemwinder on Friday 23 October 09 13:58 BST (UK)
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Hi I have a birth certificate of Frederick Winder in 1845 and it states the father as Robert Winder and Mother Elizabeth Nichols
In the 1851, 71, 81 census it shows her as being born Bermondsey
1819
Ive looked on theIGI family search and found
ELIZABETH HILL NICHOLS Pedigree Birth: 14 AUG 1819
Christening: 29 AUG 1819 Saint John Horseleydowns, Bermondsey, London,
Parents:
Father: WILLIAM NICHOLS Family
Mother: ANN
Source Information: P015521 1803 - 1853
I think this may be my connection but need to find her marriage to my Robert Winder and if it shows her father as William then i would be pretty happy to prove the link
I cant find any marriage of Elizabeth Nichols does any one have any ideas or abilty to look at other parish records in the area?
regards
Jeremy
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1851
HO107 1515 382 32
St Sepulchre
Robert WInder 37 something butcher bn Kent Chatham
Elizabeth 32 bn Bermonsey
Robert 13 bn Southwark
Edwin 9 bn St Sepulchre
Frederick 6 bn St Sep.
Elizabeth 4 bn St. Sep
this suggests they may have started married life in Southwark.
The christening you have found certainly looks like her.
But unless the marriage is after 1837 (and age of Robert jnr makes this less likely) there will not be a marriage cert - just Parish register which wont give fathers' names.
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Hi
Saint Saviour Southwark 10th June 1838 born 13th February
Robert Winder parents Robert and Elizabeth, 13 New Park Street, father's occupation butcher
St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey 4th September 1839
Mary Ann Winder parents Robert and Elizth Dorcas, Jamaica Level, father's occupation butcher
The addition of Dorcas may be just an error in the baptism register
St John Horselydown 29th August 1819 born 14th August
Elizabeth Hill Nichols parents William and Ann, Marine Crescent, father's occupation carpenter
Regards
Valda
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Dear Valda,
Blimey thank you so very much,
So the info you have on Robert Winder in my Tree only thats a perfect match
I dont however have a Mary ann Winder (so may be she dies before 1841 census?)
Elizabeth Hill Nichols :- I did not see the father occupation on IGI, how did you find this out about her father being a carpenter? and there address
On my tree software it asks for a source for the info, what info shall i enter?
So if Robert was bap in Saint Saviour do they have marriage records there of Robert and Elizabeth getting married?
Thanks very much for the help with this, Ive been stuck on this part for about 7 years
So at least now i can start moving back on the Nichols side!! ;-)
Best Regards
Jeremy
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Hi
I looked at the pages of the baptism registers for St John Horsleydown, St Saviour Southwark and St Mary Magdalen Bermondsey.
If I had found any information for a marriage of a Robert Winder to a Elizabeth Nichols I would have given it.
The baptism of Mary Ann which gives her mother's names as Elizabeth Dorcas, if correct, would call into question the baptism of Elizabeth Hills Nichols as the correct person.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
I have just had another look at the 1841 census and found Robert Winder (born about 1813) age 30 on the census but the did used to round the ages to the nearest 5.
Living in Red Lion alley but alone!!! no children or wife,
in 1851 he is listed in 9 red lion Alley but with Elizabeth Winder and there son Robert born 1838 Bermondsey.
So There may well have been a mary upto 1851 so i am looking to find Elizabeth and the children and wonder why they were not living with Robert in Red Lion alley, cant see why i missed that before!!
There is a death of a Mary Winder in 1845 Lambeth!!
jeremy
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Hi
Missing one night - census night, doesn't indicate people were not living together, they just were not together on that one night - irritating but not necessarily in anyway significant.
The Mary Winder who died in Lambeth in 1845 was 85. By 1851 Mary Ann if she survived childhood would be old enough to be working away from home.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Jem
I too am researching the Winder family in London. I have a John Winder Butcher who states he was born in Dulwich but no bptsm found. He married Alice Cook in Strand and stated his father was John Winder Chair Stuffer.
I was told that Winder is a corrupted German name and that a speciality of Germany was their wonderful pork sausages!
I wonder if there is any connection between us. If you want a copy of family tree let me know
Pam
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Hi
A Dictionary of British Surnames by P H Reaney (one of the classics for the origins of names) says of Winder - 'A derivative of Old English windan 'to wind' probably a winder of wool', so a surname derived from an occupation.
Regards
Valda
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Is this your Robert's baptism
http://www.rootschat.com/links/07md/
Ian C
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THank you very much for the attached link, I think it is very likely to be my Robert WInder, as ive not found any other record of Robert Winder in Chatham, If only I could find the marraige of Robert Winder to Elizabeth Nichols in bermondsey and it stating his father was JOhn Winder Shipwrite then I would be even more confident of a match
Again thank you very much in taking the time to share the information with me,
Regards
Jeremy Winder
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Hi
Since their eldest known child Robert was born 13th February 1838 and civil registration began 1st July 1837 unless they married after his conception (in which case you would expect to find the marriage indexed on the GRO index) then the marriage is likely to have taken place before civil registration, in which case no father's names will be given.
If this is the death registration of Robert Winder (his son Frederick's marriage of 1866 states he was deceased)
Deaths Jun 1864
Winder Robert Islington 1b 186
and he was living in the Islington area in 1861 that might account for the difficulty in finding him and his family on that census as part of Islington is missing from that census - RG9/145 part of Islington East. He was in St Sepulchre without his family on the 1841 census - not born Middlesex, which just leaves the evidence of the 1851 census that he was born in Chatham circa 1814.
John in Woolwich on the censuses and later Plumstead was a shipwright
Deaths Sep 1875 WINDER John 78 Woolwich 1d 611
WINDER, John
Christening Date:27 May 1798 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah
WINDER, Robert Bowies
Christening Date:27 May 1798 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah
WINDER, Caroline
Birth Date:8 Aug 1800
Christening Date:9 Aug 1816 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah
WINDER, Thomas
Birth Date:26 Feb 1802
Christening Date:9 Aug 1816 Chatham, Kent BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah
WINDER, Charles
Birth Date:31 Mar 1806
Christening Date:9 Aug 1816 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah
WINDER, William
Birth Date:30 Nov 1808
Christening Date:9 Aug 1816 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah
WINDER, Robert
Christening Date:2 Oct 1814 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah
Eliza could be the daughter of son John - two further baptisms for a John and Sarah Winder in 1825 and 1830 (there are often gaps in Bishop Transcripts)
WINDER, Eliza
Christening Date:14 Jun 1818 Chatham BTs
Father:John WINDER
Mother:Sarah
Have you checked to see whether John Winder shipwright of Chatham left a will (proved in Kent)?
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
I will look at a2a to see if there is a will,
also you stated Robert "his son Frederick's marriage of 1866 states he was deceased" I dont have a record of Frederick Marrying in 1866 only 1881 to Rosina Hobbs
Many thanks for the additional children of John and Sarah.
I cant find John and Sarah on any of the Census so assume they may have died before 1841, Have found the fist son in 1841 Woolwich as you stated a Shipwright) but thats the only other one apart from my Robert.
regards
Jeremy
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Hi
As far as I know Kent Record Office has not placed an index of the wills it holds online (either on A2A or any other website).
There is a private index to West Kent wills
http://www.davideastkent.canterhill.co.uk/wkpi1.htm
12th June 1881
Holy Trinity, Tottenham
Frederick Winder Full Age Bachelor Butcher Tottenham Robert Winder Butcher
Rosina Regatha Hobbs Full Age Spinster Tottenham Joseph Hobbs Cabinet maker
Marriage by banns, both signed
Witnesses Harry Dingley (his mark) and Patience Dingley
9th January 1866
Christ Church Southwark
Frederick Winder 21 Bachelor Butcher 25 Brunswick Street Robert Winder Dead
Ann Williams 19 Spinster 56 Brunswick Street James Williams Draper
marriage by banns, both signed (there is very little in common with the two Frederick signatures on the marriages)
Witnesses John Atcheler and Rosetta Sarah Britton her mark
Some adjustment of age by Frederick on his marriage to Rosina perhaps to accomodate the difference in age
1881 census 31 birth year circa 1850
1891 census 32 birth year circa 1859
1901 census 49 birth year circa 1852
1871 census RG10 420 folio 93
11 Westmorland Buildings St Botolph Aldersgate without City of London
James Williams 73 Head Married Cordwainer Colchester Essex
Mary Williams 66 Wife Married Pulborough Sussex
Ann Winder 22 Daughter Married Machinist St Batholomew City of London
Ann Winder 4 Granddaughter Clerkenwell Middlesex
Frederick Winder 3 Grandson Holloway Middlesex
Martha Williams 45 Daughter Unmarried Milliner St Andrews? City of London
Frances Williams 41 Daughter Unmarried Milliner St Andrews? City of London
as you already know Frederick senior was in prison in 1871.
Ann Winder junior was with her grandparents on the 1881 census at 34 Frome Street Islington
There is this confusing 1881 census entry - if its the same Frederick junior, John could be his uncle but not his brother
RG11 238 folio 111
7 Albert Terrace York Road Islington
John Winder 28 Head Unmarried Butcher Islington Middlesex
Frederick Winder 14 Brother Unmarried Islington Middlesex
10th July 1893 St Luke West Holloway Islington
Fredrick Winder 25 Porter 2 Fakenham Villas Frederick Winder Butcher
Emily Davies 22 Spinster 2 Fakenham Villas Edward James Davies Decorator
both signed, marriage by banns
Witnesses Edward James Davies and Kate Branson?
Of Robert's siblings
There was a Charles Winder a coachproprietor ages 34 in Chatham on the 1841 census.
Marriages Jun 1842
WINDER Charles Medway 5 419
Deaths Dec 1860 Winder Charles Medway 2a 208
There was also a William Winder and wife Agnes who had a son baptised in Chatham in 1837 and moved to Totnes - 1841 and 1851 censuses where Agnes was born. Wife Agnes on the 1851 census gave her age as 38 but William on the 1851 and 1861 censuses in Dorchester gives his age as 32 and 40 which is a trifle young for a son born in at least in 1808. William was a seller of patent medicines.
Regards
Valda
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HI Valda,
thanks again very much for your help, you stated
10th July 1893 St Luke West Holloway Islington
Fredrick Winder 25 Porter 2 Fakenham Villas Frederick Winder Butcher
Emily Davies 22 Spinster 2 Fakenham Villas Edward James Davies Decorator
both signed, marriage by banns
Witnesses Edward James Davies and Kate Branson
I have looked at my Frederick and Rosina in 1891 and they also live at 2 Fakenham Villas, so this Frederick aged 25 (born about 1868) must be family if not his son.
So i guess i need to find if records exist for Divorce in the 1870s, as he Married Rosina in 1881, or if Ann Winder (nee Williams Died)
Regards
Jeremy
P.S Ive ordered the CD for Kentish Wills from that site, you gave me.
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Hi
If he had divorced his second marriage certificate should state that. Divorce before the end of the First World War was a costly business since there was no legal aid until then. It was therefore beyond the means of most ordinary working class people. There is no Frederick Winder in The National Archives online divorce index.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
Funny enough i was just reading the same at the familyhistory uk website, that was an eye opener, Never realised that divorce was such as hard thing to do until fairly recently it appears.
So if he did not get divorced i would have expected a death of Ann winder, but i cant see one on FREEBMD or Ancestry
Also With regards to there possible son, it does seem strange to me that Frederick and Ann had a son called Frederick, he then remarries and has another Frederick Christopher in 1882, even while his other son is still around! So this does make me think that it may not be his son, but i cant think for the life of my what other connection he could be!
As i have no other fredericks in my famliy
The hunt contunies!
Thanks
Jeremy
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Hi
Birth registration
Births Mar 1868
Winder Frederick Islington 1b 224
and you already have the marriage specifying his father was Frederick and a butcher and he married from his father's home. You also have him on the 1871 census with his mother's family.
Sometimes a second wife equally wants her son named for his father.
Likely death registration for Ann
Deaths Dec 1880
Winders Ann 31 Shoreditch 1c 108
Regards
Valda