RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: family_tree_owl on Monday 19 October 09 23:20 BST (UK)
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Ancestor (Robert Mansfield) was landlord of the 'Bull & Mouth' public house in 'Westgate' area of Leeds circa 1850s... I know the establishment is long, long gone...
Have found Trade Directory and the usual Census entries BUT..... anyone pointers as to other info on said Pub..... PICTURE OR SKETCH WOULD BE :o
Ta Muchly
DAVE
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Hi Dave,
Could this be it?
http://www.leodis.net/searchResults.aspx?LOCID=0&DECADE=0&YEAR=&KEYWORDS=bull%20and%20mouth&KEYWORDS2=&KEYWORDS3=&ANDOR2=&ANDOR3=&RECSPAGE=5&VIEW=1&CURRPAGE=1
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Hi Dave,
I've looked at the 1851 census and Robert Mansfield was landlord of the Bull and Mouth Newcsatle
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Thanks Libby.....
Know about Robert Snr... and not the same 'Bull & Mouth'.... my one was located in ''Westgate''..
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Sorry Dave, I used to live in Leeds but don't know of Westgate. Do you have a census ref for the pub? Lots of my ancestors lived in Leeds and they were baptised at St Peter's, but without an address it's difficult to say. Also depends whether they were nonconformists.
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HI Dave
Like Libby I too looked at the Rob't Mansfield on the 1851 census bn circa 1813 Sussex who is in Northumberland.
If this is not the same one your asking abt, Bull and Mouth that is, then what info do you have to show a different Rob't in the same name Public house but in the Leeds area?
Wendy
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Hi Dave,
Please look again at the leodis.org website, which has 3 photos of the Bull & Mouth, & a very brief history.
Technically, I agree that the pub was on Briggate, rather than Westgate, and I cannot understand why it would have been recorded as being in "Westgate", since the part of Leeds known as "Westgate" is a little bit further away. However, there was, from the checks I've done on Leodis & other sites, only the one pub of that name in Leeds, even though it had another name earlier and at some later point in the 19th century became the Victoria Hotel. It was finally bought by Woolworths in the 1930's and demolished to create an extension to their Briggate store, which itself closed as Woolworths in 1987.
So, if you are certain that the pub was in Leeds, this seems to be it.
Best of luck, Phil.
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Hi Libby, Phil and Winston...
What a Womble (probably Uncle Bulgaria at age 49!)....
Is/was 'Newgate Street, St Andrew's Parish... Briggate?
Robert is listed in 'Slaters 1855 Directory as Landlord of the 'Bull & Mouth' at '57 Newgate Street'
He died (certifcate GRO) at 'Oyster Shell Lane which I beleive IS in Westage - wherever it is...
Your thoughts appreciated ;D
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HI
Can I first ask.
Where do you get the word Briggate?
Bull and Mouth Newgate Street is/was in the civil parish of Newcastle upon tyne St Andrew which is in the County of Northumberland which matches what both Libby and I saw in the 1851 image where Robert snr was still alive.
Westgate is/was the sub-district in the civil Parish of St Johns in the county of Northumberland where Mary Mansfield and her children Robert bn 1849 Leeds and Harriet bn 1847 were in the 1861 census when she was a widow since the passing of Robert snr.
Oystershell lane is also to be found in the Subdistrict of Westgate in the Civil Parish of St Johns in the County of Northumberland.
Hope that helps a little for you.
Wendy
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Hiya,
In the light of ages, etc., it had to be Robert Mansfield senior who was the pub landlord in 1855.
On FreeBMD, I've found a death of a Robert Mansfield in Newcastle upon Tyne in 1858, which I assume you can tie to the certificate you mention. Does that give any clue as to where he was born to try and track him in 1841, find his parents, etc.?
Neither FreeBMD nor IGI throw up the Robert & Mary marriage, although they seem to agree that Harriet was born in Woolwich & christened there 21/2/1847, and FreeBMD has Robert junior in Leeds in quarter to March 1849.
From findmypast (for which I don't have a subscription, just prepaid credits which I must admit I'm just using for my own research):
* I can see Robert junior in Woolwich in 1871, 1881 (with mother at 41 King Street) and 1891 (by then in an institution - can't tell exactly which).
* Can't see Mary after 1881, nor Harriet after 1861.
* 1851 isn't complete, so lack of any of them proves nothing much.
* Whilst there's a couple of Mary Mansfield's born 1811 showing in 1841, they don't seem to be the right one, but there are a few Robert possibilities.
I have to say I can't see any evidence of Robert junior marrying or having children.
FreeBMD has several Harriet Mansfield marriages, but I can't see how to push it any further unless you know her married surname.
Hope this helps a bit in your search.
Phil
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While I can't dispute the 1851 census entry, I've been looking at Directory entries via Historical Directories:
Newcastle:
1855 Slater's Commercial Directory of Durham, Northumberland and Yorkshire
Image 200 - Inns and Hotels - no mention of Bull and Mouth
Image 211 - Taverns and Inns - no mention of Bull and Mouth
1850 Ward's Northumberland and Durham Directory
Image 250 - Bull and Mouth, 57 Newgate Street, W Carson
Leeds:
1834 General and Commercial Directory of Leeds
Image 265 - Bull and Mouth Inn, 139 Briggate, Eliza Monkman
1847 Directory of Leeds and the Clothing District
Image 187 - Bull and Mouth Inn, 138 Briggate, Philip Clark
1855 Slater's Commercial Directory of Durham, Northumberland and Yorkshire
Image 558 (under Inns and Taverns) - Bull and Mouth 138 Briggate, Philip Clark (and posting house)
1870 White's Directory of Leeds and the West Riding
Image 283- Bull and Mouth Hotel, 137 Briggate, Mrs Elizabeth Clark
Image 283 - Bull and Mouth, Theaker Lane, Armley, Mrs H Milnes
BumbleB
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>:( :-[
Whilst I am 'always ready to admit I am wrong'..... am currently feeling 'Mauled' :-[ :-\
1. Robert Mansfield (born 1810! - died 1858) - Birth & death I ALREADY HAVE...
2. 1851 Census (and indeed all others prior to and since...) I KNOW ABOUT...
However, you have 'focussed my attention on where the Public House discrepancy IS...
1851 ('Bull & Mouth') and Slaters Directory 1855 - page 50 and 86 ('Gun').... 2 different pubs BUT same landlord?
Welcome comments BUT will now put on my protective 'rootshcat armour' ;D
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TAKE IT THIS 'IS' THE 1851 CENSUS WE ARE ALL AGREED ON?
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Ah! Did the pub change it's name between 1851 and 1855 and become the Gun. That would solve a lot 8) These things did, and do, happen.
BumbleB
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Geography has never been my 'strong point' ;D Are the 2 pubs mentioned more-or-less in the same area?
:-* :)
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I would say that the Bull and Mouth in Newgate Street, Newcastle and the Gun Inn in Newgate Street, Newcastle are one and the same, and that at some time between 1851 and 1855 the name was changed.
The Bull and Mouth in Briggate, Leeds has nothing to do with Robert Mansfield.
BumbleB
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HI
Well I for one am not sure ??? I know numbers of buildings have to change especially when new buildings are done but the Bull and Mouth Newgate was still there and noted in the 1861,1871 census.
Maybe your Robert did change the name temporarily but it didn't stick with the 'locals' and the name reverted back to what it was previously known as.
In one of the Census 1881 through to the 1901 census the property number of the Bull and Mouth was noted as 115 Newgate Street.
Wendy
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Me thinks Bumble and Winston might have it!
Robert Snr started his working life in the Royal Artillery and ended up as a Sargeant in the Royal Horse Artillery...
One thing that threw me in looking at the 1855 Slater's was that in some daft way 'Gun' meant Gunner Robert Mansfield (when he ended his miltary career as a Sargeant)!
This picture shows something linking all? Must admit I like the idea of 'Bull and Mouth' however much I love my ancestors!
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To those who have kept with this post, despite 'DRAMA QUEEN' protestations from Moi >:( (only look like this after the hair curlers come out)
BLESS YOU
DAVE
PS Would the 'seemingly possible' change in Pub name have to be registered anywhere?