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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: eltelf on Monday 19 October 09 16:21 BST (UK)
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Dear list,
I am interested in finding out more about the circumstances in which at least 4 sisters from the same family immigrated to Queensland between 1868 and 1887 (names and details listed below). Their brothers all seem to have remained in England!
I have some photographs and information about their lives once they arrived in Queensland, but would like to know more about the circumstances of their immigration, and am hoping that some infomation might be available on Australian immigration infor or passenger lists:
1. Was Elizabeth DRUMMOND, the first sister to travel to Queensland, going to visit someone already settled there?
2. Elizabeth DRUMMOND travelled with someone named Peggy WOODS. (about whom I know nothing). Are there any more details available about Peggy WOODS (date of birth, origins)?
3. Did any of the other DRUMMOND sisters travel with other family members (this was a large family, and there may have been cousins or other family friends travelling with them - some of the sisters were only teenagers).
4. Would young women like this have been 'sponsored' or funded in some way?
These are the sisters and the informtion I have about them:
Elizabeth DRUMMOND (b 1868, Newcastle On Tyne) travelled to Australia in 1887, married Joseph Wheatley in Mackay.
Peggy WOODS (travelled to Australia in 1887 with ‘cousin’ Elizabeth DRUMMOND) – I have no further information on her, and would like any further details that are available about her.
Katherine DRUMMOND (b 1870, Gateshead, Durham, England) sailed to Australia on SS ‘Duke of Norfolk’ arriving 1890; married Robert Wallace in 1892 Mackay area
Emily Baker DRUMMOND (b 1873, Gateshead, Durham, England) travelled to Australia 1888on SS ‘Jumna’ to Mackay to visit sister (Catherine?). Married Hans Borresen in 1893 Townsville.
Margaret Ann DRUMMOND (b 1887 Gateshead, Durham, England) travelled to Australia on ‘India’ to visit sister Elizabeth in Mackay, Queensland. Married Alfred Francis in Mackay 1894
Very grateful for any advice or information.
Lesley Telford
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Hi Lesley
DRUMMOND Elizabeth aged 19 years arrived aboard the Duke of Buccleuch which departed London 5th October 1887 and arrived in Maryborough 4th December 1887 and Brisbne 6th December 1887
I cannot find a Peggy Wood(s) on this journey are you sure she came out on the same ship ?
bye
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Lesley, can I ask where you obtained the immigration information about the girls? Have you viewed the appropriate films to see if further details are given?
(Peggy may be a diminutive of Margaret).
There was a big drive to get people to populate the colonies and it is possible that the girls were sponsored. I think I am correct in thinking that ads were placed in UK newspapers requesting people to go to the colonies. There may have been a need for more women in certain areas of the country (too many men and not enough eligible women :-\), hence so many sisters leaving the UK and the brothers staying in England.
Have you managed to find a link to the Woods family back in England to determine who "Peggy" is?
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Could you please let us have correct date of birth for Margaret Drummond? It may help us in looking.........
Cheers, Judith
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Hi,
In the 1880’s there were concentrated attempts to bring out men, women and families from the agricultural counties of England and N.E.Scotland. The Queensland Government also turned to Ireland as a source of agricultural labourers, the Irish making up about 25% of those settling in Queensland in the 1880’s. The Government pursued a vigorous policy of assisted packages to ensure that Queensland was the most popular destination for immigrants to Australia.
I have attached a couple of newspaper advertisements, apologies for the clarity.
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and another offering free passage for female servants & domestics
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Dear all,
Thanks very much for your replies.
The information I have about the girls is passed on to me second or third hand - it is a 'family history' booklet which appears to have been put together by a descendent in Australia some years ago. There are photographs included, and I think the person writing it must have had documents/good information from Australian families. The dates that I can check from UK census and BMD information seem to be correct.
The Australian family history says that:
'Elizabeth came to Australia in 1887. Peggy Woods, Elizabeth's cousin, came out to Australia with her'.
I am sure that is Elizabeth's record travelling out on Duke of Buccleuch; if Peggy is not on the ship, perhaps Elizabeth was actually travelling out to visit or join her? I have been looking for Woods in Gateshead, but Elizabeth's father was from London, and Elizabeth's ship sailed from there so I will check for Woods relatives in the London side of the Drummond family.
Is there anywhere I can look to see if more information is included in passenger list of Duke of Buccleuch e.g. about destination address?
The Drummond family were living in the centre of industrial Gateshead, all the sisters were born there or in Newcastle upon Tyne, father and sons working in chemical works in Gateshead, so not rural or agricultural. But all the sisters married soon after arriving in Queensland, so they do seem to have gone out to find a better life / husbands! But pretty intrepid to go out there like that alone and so young.
Very grateful for all your help,
Best wishes,
Lesley
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Lesley,
Are you not based in Australia? You had such specific information that I assumed you had already done a lot of research hence my question.
I would be happy to go to the Qld State Archives to check the immigration records for your family. Usually there is very little information included in the records, and sometimes so little that it's hardly worth loading the film. :D So don't get your hopes up. If you have any other names of missing Drummonds let me know and I'll check for them too. Family members often tended to follow one another.
I think at various times the govt just wanted more bodies, so even inexperienced labourers and domestics would be welcome in the colony.
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On the same ship as Emily Drummond, 16, (Jumna, arrived 13 Oct 1888) is an Emma Drummond aged 25, can't tell from the index if she is related or just another of the same surname.
I could not see these girls on the UK censuses - were they in Gateshead before they emigrated?
Judith
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Hi Judith,
That is fantastic - Emma Drummond was Emily's cousin, born 1863 in Peckham, London.
The Drummond brothers (Richard and John) moved from London to Gateshead; they married two sisters, both had big families, and gave their children the same names, so it is difficult to work out which is which.
It is Richard's daughters I have been tracing - but I suspected that two of John's daughters who disappeared from the records might also have emigrated to Queensland - Emma Drummond, born 1863 and Catherine Drummond born 1871.
Re finding the girls on census: they are there, but the family's ages appear incorrectly on the 1881 census (the only one that Emily appears on). I am attaching the 1881 census record for Richard Drummond's family. You can see that the ages have been changed - and they are all wrong by ten years (e.g. in 1881 census Elizabeth's age is given as 23, she was 12; Emily's age is given as 17 - she was 7 or 8; Margaret's age is given as 9 - she was 4). I have no idea why the ages were changed like this, but I believe that Richard and his wife Charlotte could not read and write (they made their mark on marriage certificate) so the census may have been completed by someone else.
Many thanks again for this excellent information.
Best wishes,
Lesley
Image Removed: Only a small section of an image may be posted for assistance with handwriting etc.
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Hi Ruskie,
Thanks very much for your offer - I may take you up on it, but I seem to be picking up a lot of the info I need from the excellent people on this list.
Delighted that i appeared to be based in Aus! But as I said earlier, I am just using very detailed information passed on to me from a family researcher in Queensland (now sadly dead, I believe).
I am based in London, England, although frequent visitor to Newcastle and Gateshead where we have relatives - the Drummonds are my husband's family (my ancestors went to NZ!)
Best wishes,
Lesley
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OK fair enough Lesley, but give me a shout later if you need those lookups. :)
Here is a link to the Qld State Archives website which indicates the records they hold. Many are gradually being put online but I believe online immigration records are still incomplete:
http://www.archives.qld.gov.au/
This might help you locate bmd's for the family:
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/BirIndexQry.m
(searchable dates are limited)
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There are lots of Drummonds on the Qld archives shipping site so it would be well worth you having a look.
Not meaning to 'steal your thunder' Ruskie but I find the Qld archives site really hard to get around and have this extra bit in the address which leads straight to shipping.
http://www.archives.qld.gov.au/research/index/immigration.asp
Cheers, Judith
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There are lots of Drummonds on the Qld archives shipping site so it would be well worth you having a look.
Not meaning to 'steal your thunder' Ruskie but I find the Qld archives site really hard to get around and have this extra bit in the address which leads straight to shipping.
http://www.archives.qld.gov.au/research/index/immigration.asp
Cheers, Judith
Funny you should mention that Judith, but I was very tempted to add "if you can manage to find your way around the site" in case Lesley had problems.
I always get lost on the site and seem to keep getting things I don't want when searching.
And all the immigrations aren't on the site yet either so it's worth checking the cards as well as the books at the Archives.
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Thank you again Judith and Ruskie.
I had a look at Queensland Archives site - my first reaction was 'Oh help!' but when I tried again and followed your direct link I got to the alphabetical list of immigrants 1848-1912, which is excellent. As you say, several Drummonds there and I will check if any might match the families here who 'disappeared' from census records in England and I think might have emigrated.
But I would like to take you up on your offer Ruskie, and ask if you could see if there is any more information about Elizabeth Drummond's arrival in the card indexes. Elizabeth seems to have been the first of the Drummond girls to come out to Queensland (arrived on Duke of Buccleuch 6 December 1887). I feel she may well have been going to join some member of her family who had travelled out earlier - someone that I am not yet aware of - and there might just possibly be more information that you might be able to dig out that is not available online.
I thought I had cracked the puzzle over Elizabeth's cousin, Peggy Woods who supposedly travelled out with her: I found a relative called Margaret Ward, born December quarter 1862 (Elizabeth's father's cousin) who could just possibly have become reported as 'cousin Peggy Woods' in information passed down through the family - but on the immigrants list I could only find these two, who don't really match (although the second might, at a push, if she was knocking a couple of years off her age - but she arrived after Elizabeth, not before):
Margaret Ward, 36 (b 1848), Southern Belle, 6 March 1874
Margaret Ward, 26 (b 1865), Merkara, 23 March 1891
There are also these two, who have the right name, but I can't find them in UK records yet or fit them into my family:
Margaret Woods, 24 (b 1857), Carnatic, 25 October 1881,
Margaret Woods, 36 (b 1850), Quetta, 6 April 1886
As always, thanks for your help. I do appreciate it!
Best wishes,
Lesley
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Lesley,
As you have now "mastered" ( ;)) using the immigration indexes on the Qld State Archives site, have you looked through the other Drummonds? You can group them into families by ship and date of arrival. If any of these look familiar I can check the films to see if further information is given about them.
Of course Elizabeth may not have known anyone in Australia, and perhaps she just came here for the work and the adventure. You may not find other family members who arrived before her. Many young women did the journey alone. Or she may have neighbours or family friends here who sent for her - any number of scenarios could apply.
I might try to get to the Archives tomorrow, and if I can't, I will go early next week. :)
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Hi Lesley,
I did some searching for your Drummonds today.
I think that your original source might be wrong about Katherine's immigration. You said she arrived in Australia in 1890 on the "Duke of Norfolk". I couldn't find a C/Katherine Drummond arriving that year. I checked the Ship's Arrival's Book and the Duke of Norfolk did not travel to Australia that year - it did 2 trips in 1899, 2 trips in 1900, 3 trips in 1901 and 2 in 1902. However I did find a couple of possible alternatives for your Catherine.
As you know, there are many Drummond immigrations on the online index, and that is before checking for more in the card indexes.
I couldn't find Peggy Woods on "the "Duke of Buccleuch".
"Duke of Buccleuch" sailed from London on 5th Oct 1887 and arrived Brisbane 6th Dec 1887, Capt Langlois.
Free passengers disembarking Townsville:
Drummond Elizabeth, female, occupation or calling: DS (domestic servant), religion: protestant, county or country: Northumberland, remarks section is blank.
[just as an interesting aside, 2 infants died on the voyage and there were 5 male stowaways :D]
So you see, very little information ....
"Jumna" sailed from London 25th Aug 1888 arrived Brisbane 13 Oct 1888. Capt Burkitt.
Free passengers Townsville:
Drummond Emma, 25, female, DS, RCath, from Midd (Middlesex I imagine). On the same voyage was Emily Drummond age 16 - all other details the same as Emma's.
"Taroba" sailed from London 20 Nov 1888 arrived Peel Island quarantine 7 Jan 1889 landed Brisbane 11 Jan and Immigrants on 15 Jan 1889.
Free Townsville:
Drummond Kate, 18, DS, RC, Northumberland
Drummond Catherine (exactly the same details as above - I wonder if she was counted twice or perhaps there are two and they're cousins?)
arrived Townsville quarantine 2 Jan 1889, released 14 Jan 1889. I thought this sounded as though there was illness on board but there were no more deaths than usual).
Does this sound as though it might be your Catherine?
Is this one of yours?:
"Jumna" sailed from London 25th July 1890 arrived Brisbane 13 Sept 1890. Capt Smith.
Free Townsville:
Drummond Ellen, 28, DS, protestant, Northumberland
"India" sailed from London 14th Dec 1891 arrived Brisbane 5th Feb 1892. Capt Johnston.
Mackay Free:
Drummond Margaret, age 16, DS, she could read and write, RC, from Durham
Let me know what you think so far Lesley. I hope this all makes sense and that they're the correct girls. Did you know some of them were Roman Catholic?
I did run out of time so if you want more lookups please ask. ;D
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I've read this thread with great interest, partly because I'm researching my g-grandmother who arrived in Qld in 1883 as a young single woman, & I've often wondered what prompted her to travel all this way. I'd love to know where you found those ads - my g-grandmother came on the "Northern Monarch" & the records I found online show many single women on the ship, as well as a woman who looked after their welfare so I had assumed she might have come as a result of some sort of ad push. She disembarked in Rockhampton, but ended up in Mackay nearly 20 years later with her young family. If I can help you with modern day pics of Mackay or historical info I could find at the library, let me know. You mentioned the name Wallace - one of the women who writes for our local family history society has that name. Wonder if there is a connection?
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Hi Ruskie,
Thanks a million - you have filled in some vital gaps. Very interesting to see that all these young women travelled as 'Free passengers'.
First vital piece of info:
Yes, there were two Catherine Drummonds - they were cousins, but I had not realised they had both emigrated. They must have travelled out together (you can see what I mean about the problems these Drummond brothers caused me by marrying sisters, and calling all their children by the same name!). The information I had re Kate arrived on the 'Duke of Norfolk' is obviously wrong.
Second excellent bit of information:
Yes, you have confirmed that all these girls must have been Roman Catholic. I had just received a certificate to show (to my surprise) that Peter Drummond and Margaret Campbell (parents of Emma Drummond and one of the Catherines) were married in a Roman Catholic chapel; it was the first evidence I had that any of this branch of the family might have been catholic - now confirmed by your information. I am inclined to think that it must have been the Campbells (the sisters that my Drummond brothers married) who were Catholic, since we have birth and marriage parish records from Anglican churches in London for earlier Drummonds (although I could be wrong of course!)
I have gone through all the Drummonds on the list of immigrants to Queensland Registers of Immigrant Ships Arrivals 1848-1912 now, and there are no more matches with folk in my tree who have vanished off the British census records (but I bet there are some there that just haven't registered on my radar yet!)
Thanks very much again Ruski.
Best wishes,
Lesley
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Hi Bramcor,
I wonder if your local family history writer is connected with my Drummonds? Kate Drummond married Robert Henry Wallace in 1892, in the Mackay area.
They had five children: Lilian Esther (born 1893), George William (born 1894, married Florence known as Queenie), Ada Elizabeth (born 1896 married Victor Johnson), Richard Henry (born 1898) and Katie Mary (born 1900, married Edward Greenaway).
The information I have on them is from a 'family history' written I think by Emily Drummond's descendents, but I also have a couple of letters and photographs that Katie Mary sent to her cousin Margaret Telford in Gateshead.
Would be interested to hear if your Wallace was related!
Best wishes,
Lesley
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Dear Ruskie,
PS - sorry, I forgot to add, re your suggestion about Ellen Drummond, travelled "Jumna" London July 1890
No, sadly, she is not mine - I have no Ellen’s at all among my Drummonds. :(
Best wishes,
Lesley
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Hi Lesley,
I recently found your help enquiry on the Drummond sisters.
My husbands grandmother was Emily Baker Drummond. The family history pages that you have were probably written by my husband and I and were probably passed onto you by a lady named Marian.
If I can help you with any information please feel free to contact me.
Kind regards,
Barbara
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Eltelf,
I also started with information in a family booklet,some of which turned out to be wrong,incomplete (Emily married Mr White!) or omitted completely.
It may be worth your while to contact descendants of the authors to find out where and what information is held,may save you some money duplicating certificate purchases.
Eric.
wont even think of asking about Woods at this time!!
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Hi Barbara,
Very good to hear from you - yes, the Drummond Family History pages were passed to me by Marian, my husband's cousin (he is Peter Telford, Martha Drummond's grandson).
I was delighted when I saw your pages - not only because of the information, but also because of the wonderful family photographs (Peter's father was the youngest child in his family, and seems to have inherited no photos or documents, sadly). We were particularly pleased to see the 'family group' of Martha Drummond and her husband Jack Patterson Telford and their family. and I wondered if you had any more photographs of the family in Gateshead.
I have now written up the 'Drummond' history from this side of the world (Peckham in South London from 1870s, then Gateshead) as far as I can track it, using your information shamelessly to give details of the Drummonds who emigrated to Queensland; I would be very happy to send you a copy if you can let me have your address or email - you can let me know if any of my information conflicts with yours. My email address is
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Best wishes (and Happy New Year),
Lesley (Telford)
Hi Lesley,
I recently found your help enquiry on the Drummond sisters.
My husbands grandmother was Emily Baker Drummond. The family history pages that you have were probably written by my husband and I and were probably passed onto you by a lady named Marian.
If I can help you with any information please feel free to contact me.
Kind regards,
Barbara
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Hi Lesley,
I am related to the Mathers/Telfords who went to Lyttelton New Zealand from Gateshead - any connection?
Deb (Australia)
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Hi Deb,
I'm sorry, I don't think there are any Mathers in our Telford tree, and don't think we have any Telfords who went to NZ - they seem to have stuck to Queensland Aus (and Yonkers, New York).
Best wishes,
Lesley