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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: turfy on Thursday 15 October 09 17:25 BST (UK)
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Can anyone please tell me what 'Seaman M S' would stand for in the early 1900's Navy? (dont know if it relates to Merchant or Royal)
Many Thanks.
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I'd have thought that MS probably stood for 'Merchant Service'.
Jennifer
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Thanks Jennifer - it was entered as Father's rank / profession on my Grandmothers Marriage certificate...
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Extremely difficult to research seamen from this era. In 1857 the Board of Trade abandoned the Seamen's register reasoning that the agreements and crew lists were sufficient to meet the needs of the department. So, from 1858 - 1913 no register of ordinary seamen's service was kept.
Read http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Enationalarchives%2Egov%2Euk%2Fcatalogue%2Fleaflets%2Fri2198%2Ehtm&lBack=-1#2
May be of help.
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Thanks Seaweed.
Elderly relatives are insistent that he was a sea Captain and thought he may have been from Norway.
His name was Charles Anderson and he married Gwladys (welsh spelling) Ball. I dont know the date but Gwladys was born in 1888. We also know that he died at sea. They had a daughter Olive Everlyn Anderson b. 1910.
Regards
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Should also say that Charles Anderson had died sometime before 1931..
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I can find a Captain Charles Anderson born in Denmark in 1856 and I know he was around in 1911 but I have my doubts if this is your man because he obtained his Masters ticket in Sunderland and there would be a considerable age difference. Apart from the fact that family folklaw always prescribes that any seaman was a captain.
If your man died at sea whilst onboard a British vessel then it would be recorded in the series BT334 at the National archive.
After 1890 the new series of registers are in the class Registers and Indexes of Births, Marriages and Deaths of Passengers and Seamen at Sea. The information given in these registers is as follows:
deaths: name of ship, official number, port of registry, date of death, place of death, name of deceased, sex, age, rating [for seamen], rank or profession or occupation [for non-seamen], nationality and birthplace, last place of abode, cause of death, remarks.
The registers cover the period 1891-1964 with some ommisions and there are indexes arranged both by ships' names and individuals' names. Entries in the indexes in red ink refer to passengers; those in black ink to crew.
I don't know if you can view these records online.
It may be worthwhile looking at the census records. If he was onboard a ship when the census was taken the name of the vessel would be given.
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Hi Seaweed
Many Thanks for all that very useful info.
I will carry on hunting, I have to find him - he is my Great Grandfather...
Regards
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Have you any idea as to the year of his death?
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Hi Seaweed
I only know that he had died by 1931 as it states this on his daughters marriage certificate.
Yesterday I received his marriage certificate, I can't scan it until tomorrow.....
Unfortunately I can't read his profession off the form so will attach a scan as soon as I have it. It certainly does not say Captain (maybe he worked up to this after marriage, or as you say perhaps it was just folklaw) - it reads something like Ships Bxxxxxxxx M. S.
He was married 2nd march 1908 in Newport, South Wales age 32 - his name here appears as Karl but as Charles on his daughters marriage certificate, so I assume his name was Charles Karl Andersen (or Karl Charles).
Thanks for all your help and interest - I hope you will be able to read the certificate better than I can as I cant make out his fathers name or profession either!!
Hope to be able to post the scan here tomorrow or by Tuesday...
Regards
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Hi Turfy
If the form says Ships Bxxxxxxxx - it is probably Bosun (Boatswain)
James
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I assume his name was Charles Karl Andersen
Charles would be the English verson of Karl so it would make sense as to him being or European origins somewhere along the line.
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Macintosh and Casalguidi.
Yes, I think the word may well be 'Boatswain' and interesting that Charles is the english version of Karl...
Many Thanks both.
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Hi Seaweed
I only know that he had died by 1931 as it states this on his daughters marriage certificate.
Yesterday I received his marriage certificate, I can't scan it until tomorrow.....
Unfortunately I can't read his profession off the form so will attach a scan as soon as I have it. It certainly does not say Captain (maybe he worked up to this after marriage, or as you say perhaps it was just folklaw) - it reads something like Ships Bxxxxxxxx M. S.
He was married 2nd march 1908 in Newport, South Wales age 32 - his name here appears as Karl but as Charles on his daughters marriage certificate, so I assume his name was Charles Karl Andersen (or Karl Charles).
Thanks for all your help and interest - I hope you will be able to read the certificate better than I can as I cant make out his fathers name or profession either!!
Hope to be able to post the scan here tomorrow or by Tuesday...
Regards
This is a very long shot but if it works it may be the key.
As I said in an earlier post researching seaman between 1857 and effectivly 1919 is made difficult by the fact that no central register of seamen were kept between those dates. However it maybe that he was at sea after 1919 (there is no record of him being lost in the first world war) if so he may have a record in the Fourth register of Merchant seamen.
The best way to obtain any records is to contact
Southampton City Archive
Southampton City Council
South Block Basement
Civic Centre
Southampton
SO14 7LY
There are details of how to apply for fourth register records on their website which seems to be down right now but try later.
read http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,385954.0.html
Just give them all the personal detail you can about him. They are not interested when he was married or who to or his kids so I suggest you ask for---
"The records for Charles Anderson, born around 1876 possibly in Scandinavia. Possibly living in Newport South Wales."
They will do three searches for £15. Like I say a long shot.
Just a pointer. If he did die at sea, then there will not be a Death Certificate unless there was a doctor onboard.
I have found a Charles ANDERSSON born 1876/1877 in Sweden serving as an Able bodied seaman on the Newport owned and registered vessel LILLIAN MORRIS official number 73131 between 8/Dec/1898 and 31/Aug/1899.
She carried a crew of 20. 5 of whom came from Sweden, all around the same age and all previously served on the vessel HOLDEN of West Hartlepool. West Hartlepool was a major trading port for the Baltic and Scandinavia.
The details are contained in Monmouthshire (now Gwent) record office Repository REF D.907.8.26
I ran a search in Welsh Mariners http://www.welshmariners.org.uk/
There is no record of him as Master, Mate or Engineer
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Hi Seaweed
Thank you very very much for finding him!!
I will do as you suggest and see if I can find out any more info as well..
I wonder if I can find any photo's of the vessel's on the internet - how brilliant if so!
I have enclosed a scan of his marriage certificate, as Macintosh suggested his rank at the time looks to be Boatswain?
Also I am having trouble reading his fathers name and profession off the form - what do you think - and I'm not sure of Gladys Father's profession either?
Thank you so much.
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Turfy,
His fathers' name was Kristian and he was a Master Tanner,
A curer, and producer of leather hides
James
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Turfy,
The father of Gladys was a Master Tailor
Jamas
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Hi James
Thanks for that - I thought that was what the document said but I always like to get a second opinion if I am in the least unsure..
I will have to upgrade my Ancestry subscription to include overseas to have any chance of following Kristian back.
Haven't been able to find any photo's of the Lillian Morris or Holden - but I guess that was hoping for too much!
Thanks for all your help.
Garry
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I think Karls father was Kristian Andersen and that he was a Master Tanner. Her Father Frederick was a Master Tailor. Its interesting that they were listed at the same address for date of marriage. Was he living with his future parents in law I wonder. I agree with your other posters who say he is a ships boatswain. Quite a responsible job that one.....
It might be worth googling the name of the ship he was listed as sailing with as my friend found a pic of the one his grandfather sailed in.
Dee
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Thanks Dee.
I have been trying to find a pic of either of the two ships 'Lillian Morris' or the 'Holden' but no luck so far.
Regards.
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Garry'
Some info that may be of use in your search for a pic of Lillian Morris.
Registered Number 1073131,
Barque 806 tons.
Launched July 1875 at the Pallion Yard, Sunderland.
Sail only.
In 1917 engined with 2 diesels and became 3 masted schooner.
1902 became Pasqualino
1917 became Paysandu
1919 became Ibaizabal
1923 became Maria Luiza
In March 1929 caught fire and sank and was later broken up.
I have been unable to find a pic of her anywhere and there is no mention of her on Lloyds,
The same applies to the Holden, are you sure of the name and the spelling of Holden? because there are some names similar but not exact.
The owners names of Lillian Morris suggest she was either Portugese registered or Brazilian after she was sold in 1902.
Therer are ships named Paysandu and Maria Luiza though they are more modern and not the ones you are looking for.
Regards
James
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Garry'
Some info that may be of use in your search for a pic of Lillian Morris.
Registered Number 1073131,
Barque 806 tons.
Launched July 1875 at the Pallion Yard, Sunderland.
Sail only.
In 1917 engined with 2 diesels and became 3 masted schooner.
1902 became Pasqualino
1917 became Paysandu
1919 became Ibaizabal
1923 became Maria Luiza
In March 1929 caught fire and sank and was later broken up.
I have been unable to find a pic of her anywhere and there is no mention of her on Lloyds,
The same applies to the Holden, are you sure of the name and the spelling of Holden? because there are some names similar but not exact.
The owners names of Lillian Morris suggest she was either Portugese registered or Brazilian after she was sold in 1902.
Therer are ships named Paysandu and Maria Luiza though they are more modern and not the ones you are looking for.
Regards
James
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I've got an oil painting of the Lillian Morris under sail! My Great Great Grandfather, David Jones, was a captain sailing out of Aberaeron, Mid Wales. Family lore has it that he was her master. I would realy like MacIntosh to let me know how he found out so much about her.
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Gagsy,
I have been racking my brain to remember how I obtained the info re the barque Lillian Morris and I am almost certain it was via the website www.miramarshipindex.org.nz This used to be a free site back in October but now you have to register and pay to view. I have done a lot of research for my own family mercantile and Royal Naval history, however there are some other sites I have used namely www.plimsollshipdata.org (site down for maintenance at the moment ) and photoship.co.uk.
Hope this helps
James
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Hi Gagsy
I don't suppose you could take a photo of the painting and post here by any chance or email? I would love to see it! I have been searching for ages to find any kind of photo of her..
Hope you don't mind me asking.
Many Thanks
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Hi Turfy
I attach 2 picies of the Lillian Morris. One full one and one detail of the name, I had to use a low number of pixels to keep the file size down. Hope you can see the flags. I am no expert but I have looked up the signal she is flying and it appears to read "metal ship - going backwards - under mechanical power - read above flags in the opposite" The artists little joke at a time when metal mechanically powered ships were taking over.
Regards
Gagsy
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Can anyone confirm or otherwise my reading of these flags?
Gagsy
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I've just found this photo in wiki. Not quite as grand as the painting. The text says it was taken in Bristol. Have you seen the other info about her coming to the rescue of an abandonned ship and the info about her losing her masts and a member of her crew in a water spout!
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Hi Gagsy
Thank you very much its brilliant to see this. I have no info re. "Have you seen the other info about her coming to the rescue of an abandonned ship and the info about her losing her masts and a member of her crew in a water spout!" - I would love to know the details? Also do you know about what date the photo in Bristol was taken or who was the artist and date of the painting?
Most of the little info I have about the ship has come from help on this site - Charles ANDERSSON born 1876/1877 in Sweden serving as an Able bodied seaman on the Newport owned and registered vessel LILLIAN MORRIS official number 73131 between 8/Dec/1898 and 31/Aug/1899. We know he at least attained the rank of Bosun by 1908 but it may have been aboard a different ship...
She carried a crew of 20 at that time, 5 of whom came from Sweden - Charles Anderson was my Great Grandfather. Would your Great Great Grandather David Jones have been aboard / master at the same time?
Once again , thanks very much for the images..
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Fathers' professions look like
Tanner
(Master)
Tailor
(Master)
Linda
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Hi Turfy
Put 'Lillian Morris barque' in google and you will find the entries about the waterspout and the abandonned ship.
You could also search under Lilian Morris,
You could get a copy of the photo at:-
http://digital.slv.vic.gov.au/view/action/nmets.do?DOCCHOICE=66819.xml&dvs=1301417161280~993&locale=en_GB&search_terms=&adjacency=&usePid1=true&usePid2=true
Regards
Gagsy
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Hi Gagsy
Thanks again although nothing in google using those searches for me and I just get an error for the photo link - must be my ageing computer I think..
Best Regards
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Hi Turfy
Sorry about the delay. I will email you the posts about the water spouts and the wreck report if you send me your email address. (I am **).
Regards
Gagsy
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Perhaps I'm going to throw a spanner in the works here but the 1911 census index (using the advanced free search) shows Carl ANDERSEN (other person in the household Olive or Gladys ANDERSEN) in the Newport district as born Norway and slightly older. I tried born Sweden and nothing came up so tried Norway and up he came :-\
Of course you will need to pay to see the full details http://www.1911census.co.uk/
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Casalguidi
Thanks - Olive was my Grandmother and Gladys my Great Grandmother (Karl / Carl / Charles wife). We were unsure if he was born Sweden or Norway..
Cheers.