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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: er indoors on Wednesday 14 October 09 17:03 BST (UK)
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Hi I am trying to solve a mystery and hope somebody out there can help me solve it.
I had an uncle Thomas Ross born Liverpool c1889 son of John Henry ans Annie Ross
1911 census he was at Orford barracks corporal age 22. I know it was him as his sister was also there as a visitor. (he was in infantry)
Family info say's he became a Major but as yet unable to find if this is true what family info there is no body knows where it came from all has some truth but not 100%
I found the WW1 medal Rolls index cards there is a Thomas Ross no 8198 Sgt 2nd bn South Lancashire Reg M.C after his name so assume military cross France 14.8.14 mentions of clasp/2/330 em/2/171then t/wocl1 was that transport warrant officer class 1?
Found on London gazette may 1917 8198 Thomas Ross Company Sargent Major and 31st may 1918 8198 T/RSM.
I need to know how I can confirm if theses two Thomas Ross's are the same man if they are he may not have left the Army after the war if he were to get to a higher Rank.
Any idea's????
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As the Regimental number is the same for the London Gazette entries and the Medal Index card, then I think you can be pretty confident that it was the same man. If he did go on to be a Major in the army then it would seem that he served beyond the end of hostilities in 1918. If that is the case then there is a good chance that his records still survive and are held by the Ministry of Defence - see this for further details:
http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Military_Records
If he was an officer before the end of the war, which doesn't seem likely given the dates of the Gazette entries, then his army record will be at the National Archives at Kew.
A good site for general background and a start for research is:
http://www.1914-1918.net/
good hunting,
jds1949
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Welcome to the forum
As the same number 8198 appears with all three references to Thomas Ross, it must be at least 99.9% certain that they are for the same man.
The Military Cross was instituted in December 1914 as a gallantry award for junior commissioned officers and warrant officers, but would not be available to sergeants. Sergeant-major is a warrant officer, CSM is WO class 2, Regimental Sergeant major a WO class 1 - a very important figure in an infantry battalion.
I suspect that the 'T/RSM' would have nothing to do with transport, but be a 'temporary' rank. If he was commissioned, this would be published in the London Gazette, so more searches there would be worthwhile.
However... CSMs and RSMs were sometimes referred to, informally, as 'major'.
Peninsula Barracks in Orford, Warrington was the South Lancashire Regiment's depot for many years, but all has been transferred under mergers and amalgamations to Fulwood Barracks, Preston, Lancs, where you might get more details.
This site will give you lots of information about the regiment and WW1 in general: <http://www.1914-1918.net/>. There is a linked Great War Forum.
A
[beaten to it by jds!]
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Sorry I may not have explained this very well but I have no reg no for corporal Thomas Ross 1911. The numbers refer to the medal card 1914-1920 the references in the Lonson Gazette match his name and number.
Thank's
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If you check back to the 1911 census return it should tell you which Regiment was being enumerated - if it is the South Lancs then it probably is your man - a corporal in 1911 would probably have been a sergeant by the War. Ainslie's point about Sergeant Majors being called "Major" is a good one and would make perfect sense with your family's memory of the man.
jds1949
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Many thanks for your replies and advice nice to know it wan't all a load of rubbish.
now I have the bug I want to know more about this uncle of mine, sounds quite a chap
to do so well he was there from 1914 by 1920 he was still only 31years old. I have to find what happened to him.
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The award of the MC to a warrant officer might well be mentioned in a regimental history or in a battalion's war diary.
The museum at Fulwood Barracks may be able to help with this. I hope you find your man in the 1911 census, which should clinch the facts.
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Thank's Ainslie yes it is him in 1911 no doubt so it is now down to war diary info or somewhere I can confirm his age or career with the regiment.
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The National Archives has copies of the War Diaries of the 2nd Battalion South Lancashire Regiment. They are in two parts and the references are:
WO 95/1414 [1914-1915]
WO 95/2250 [1915-1918]
Go to:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search/search_results.aspx?st=q&queryText=wo%2095%20south%20lancashire%20regiment&aqgQueryText=wo%2095%20south%20lancashire%20regiment&queryType=ALL
and if you click on the relevant links you will get a choice of how to obtain them. If you live anywhere near London then a trip to Kew is probably the best option.
jds1949
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His MC is listed in the regimental history, also showing the Gazette date of 03/06/1918, but there are no specific mentions of him in the text
I'll check the diaries......
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Sorry, I thought I had the diary for that period but it's for the 5th, not the 2nd.
The 2nd battalion were in the thick of the fighting when trying to repel the German offensive (Operation Michael) of March 1918, and were in constant action from 21st to 26th. The history reports that 20 officers, NCO's and men of the battalion were decorated for conspicuous bravery.
Given that the usual delay between an award and a mention in the Gazette was around three months, it seems likely that RSM Ross was one of those decorated for this action.
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JDS and Stephen Thank you so much I am amazed at your knowledge it is quite astounding
I spend ages looking at sites and find very little.
I take my hat off to you.
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You're more than welcome - enjoy
jds1949
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I found a reference in the London Gazette 1st May 1917 8198 Company Sgt-Major Thomas Ross Croix de Guerre not heard of this one so would he have 1914 medal this and the M.C
his record mentions clasp/2/330 and em2/1721v3667/em28.5.20
on the correspondence page it says 6 or c ic 2nd bn s.lancs r.fwds from roll of individuals entitled to the emblem at 1a 27.1.20
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The 1914 Star was awarded for those who served in France or Belgium, on the strength of a unit, between 5 August and midnight 22/23 November 1914. A Bar was sanctioned later, sewn onto the actual medal ribbon showing '5 Aug.- 22 Nov. 1914'. The bar was represented by a silver rosette on the ribbon when the medal itself was not worn.
Ross was probably also entitled to the British War Medal and Victory Medal. The 'trio' was affectionately known as Pip, Squeak and Wilfred. If these are not shown on the medal index card you have seen, there may be another for him.
He must stand out as a Liverpool Hero!
A
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Thank you Ainslie for that I like to think of him as a hero, although my son in law is serving in the army already done a tour of Iraq and Afghan but hate just hate the thought
of him having to return to a war zone.
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I don't know if this thread is still "live", but Thomas "Tommy"Ross MC MBE was my grandfather. He continued to serve with 2nd Battn until after WWII.
He died Sept 22nd 1955. I have the MC and those records which survive.
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Hello Alan very pleased to hear from you. This is fantastic your grandfather and my grandmother were brother and sister.
I have sent a private message to you please get in touch....very soon
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I was so excited to see this I only read halfway before I sent the message.
I do have details of his date and place of death and some info including a couple of photos of him one as a young man and one older, in both he looks very much like my Uncle his nephew.Who was also very much a man of action and served his country.
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That was a quick response, once on the trail I have tried a follow up via your Genes Reunited post. Look out for notification.
Off to the airport but will get in touch later.
best regards, cousin!
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Oh no off to the airport....can I wait that long?