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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: Wiggy on Monday 12 October 09 05:09 BST (UK)

Title: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 12 October 09 05:09 BST (UK)

Old Thread    Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1820: MCNALLY Catharine; AMOS T: STIEGLITZ
« on: Tuesday 26 May 09 00:32 BST (UK) »    Reply with quote Modify message

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,383665.375.html

This thread links directly and follows on from RANSOM, Thomas: MCNALLY,Catharine Christian thread. here is a summary of what has gone before in our search for her.

So - looking for Catharine Christina McNally - common-law wife of Thomas Ransom - approx 1819-1829.

Suspected to be with John McNally in Sydney as mother of John born 1811
Assumed to arrive in VDL with John, as un-named wife, coming under contract with John Cummings 1816 - to PD.

1817-19?? Catharine is mother of Ann 'Ransom', fathered by Thomas Amos - no proof of this other than family history as per Leo Von Stieglitz - and we haven't found the time frame to back this up yet. (However you don't get this family story without some historic reason - you don't just 'make this up' specially when we have evidence of a Thomas Amos being in the colonies at the time.)

Catharine is presumed to have left John in about 1818. He seems to disappear from VDL, but John Jnr shows up in Sydney 1822 muster with another woman Ann Clemens. (Has John gone off sealing again - he is listed somewhere as seaman.)

1st definite appearance in 1819 as un-named 'wife' - no children in evidence at this muster.
2nd definite record - birth record for Thomas McNally 1820 - Catharine listed as unmarried.
3rd definite record - Mrs Ransom donating to the Wesleyan mission 1823.
1825 per papers - Thomas and Catharine move to Green Ponds due to 'not being married'!
4th recorded as being at Green Ponds - Royal Oak Inn during court case - 1829 - refers to her presence in 1828.
Recorded as beneficiary and executrix of Thomas's Will 1829
5th Marriage to Frederick Stieglitz Feb 1830 hereafter known as Christina.
6th in paper receiving probate for Thomas's property - Nov 1829
1837 Present in Martin Cash's book as being chatelaine of Killymoon
7th named as sending exhibits to London and Paris Exhibitions 1850s.
8th named in paper at her death - (Christina Stieglitz). On grave stone and in another paper as Catharine Stieglitz. Aug 1857

As previously commented:
Lack of paper trail suggests she was a free woman.
Lack of evidence of McNally marriage suggests she was common-law wife of John McNally - but, she and John both named as McNally in birth of John McNally junior - so does that make her a McNally by birth? - probably not on this evidence.
Odd though that she signs that she is McNally, unmarried, at Thomas's birth in 1820 - (or is that just to show that the child is not John McNally's.)

Catharine does not appear in 1822 muster and we can't see evidence of children at this time either - yet! In fact Catharine seems to be very good at 'flying under the radar' - so she is giving us some trouble.

Any help is valued

Cheers, Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: alison2763 on Monday 12 October 09 05:40 BST (UK)

Hi Wiggy Hobbs,
This is a long shot. I see you are researching the Ransom family.
My GG Grandmother was Mary Ann Angel RANSON/RANSOM/RANSOME b 22.5.1825 don't know where. She married Thomas CHANDLER { b 3.3.1816 Hastings Sussex d 10.4.1890 Sydney} on 28.2.1841 at St Lawrences Church Of England Sydney.
I can't find: birth or death or parents. Have you ever come across these people in your research?
I think Thomas may be buried at Waverley Cemetery in Sydney but have not been able to confirm this yet.
Regards
Alison

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 12 October 09 05:45 BST (UK)

Hello Alison,

Sorry but wrong Ransom, I think. Our interest is in Tasmania in 1814-1829. As far as we know Thomas had no other relatives in Australia - he arrived as a convict in 1791. There was only one son and he was born in Tasmania and died there.

Good luck with your search.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: alison2763 on Monday 12 October 09 05:49 BST (UK)

Thanks Wiggy.
Like I said it was a long shot. She is ONE of my brick walls !
Thanks again.
Alison

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 12 October 09 06:34 BST (UK)

Hi Alison,

On this link http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/ you will find digitised newspapers including ones for NSW from 1840-1845... I found newspaper cuttings for several of my NSW forebears 1840's marriages by finding the newspaper editions for the weeks around the dates on their various certificates, and you have the date of that 1841 marriage. I hope that's a good starting point for a search through the newspapers ;) ... I found all sorts of bits and pieces about the weather, the wages, the accomodation available etc... and of course the marriage announcement, which included the names of the parents of the bride..... ;)

Also, I think that in 1841 that "MF" church was perhaps a temporary building, on land donated by the Terry family... I think Christ Church St Lawrence was not completed until around 1845... my G G Gran married there in 1845...

There's lots of good NSW resources on this RChat thread too... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html

Hope this helps....

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 12 October 09 06:50 BST (UK)

Also Alison,

Been thinking - there was another Thomas Ransom around at the same time as ours - he was much younger and was in NSW - he appears in Index of Colonial Secretary's papers with one entry -leasing an Inn on the Hawkesbury I think - don't know if that helps but it may give you a link.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 12 October 09 06:51 BST (UK)

Hi Wiggy and the Catharine team,

If you ever need to find newspapers for Tasmania in 1840-1845, here's the link for the Launceston Courier
http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/bfull/14401436_bfull.html and
there's this for The Teetotal Advocate ;D http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/bfull/14403625_bfull.html

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 12 October 09 07:31 BST (UK)

Hi all

Some bits and pieces of the jigsaw puzzle...

Remember Adam AMOS, District Constable at Great Swan Port ... well apparently he had a Diary.... I have not found the Diary, but found the following mention of it "The Diary of District Constable Adam Amos shows the following information from a Muster Roll at October 19, 1823" at http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/con387.htm The Diary - perhaps entered up daily for the Police Notes... would perhaps have information including names and events and dates .... perhaps hotel licence disputes, court appearances...

Also on the index at http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=2 Thomas RansomE listed as a passenger, and a Crown Servant to Mr KENT, on a voyage to PJ from Hobart departing 5 June 1819, on the "Hibernia"..

And to add to the collective knowledge of Catharine, Mrs Ransom :
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2184372?searchTerm=%22ransom%22
Sydney Gazette, 25 Aug 1825, Mrs Ransom, in VDL showing compassion for her short-term employee, a Mrs Jane Spencer.. former wife of a Francis Spencer of Black Horse, Sydney....

EDIT TO ADD, 1825 Mr and Mrs Ransom moved to Green Pond because someone dobbed that they were not married... Perhaps the dobber was in the know (so to write) from a base in Sydney... Jane Spencer returned to Sydney from PD early Aug 1825... her former husband won't take her back, but has set up with their children and her forner servant... :o So umm, oh well, probably not advance the puzzle for Catharine..

Still searching ;D

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 12 October 09 07:34 BST (UK)

JM - you are an addict!

Gotta go to a meeting - but will follow up soon!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: rpoole on Monday 12 October 09 11:04 BST (UK)

Hi Wiggy,

I am a distant relation through marriage to the Von Stieglitz family. You may have already looked at this possible lead to Catherine. I refer to the LDS report to the IGI for the christening of Catherine McNALLY 6th Jan 1790 in Ireland, daughter of Henry and Alice McNALLY. See following familsearch link:

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=/eng/search/ancestorsearchresults.asp

Perhaps she was a McNALLY by birth? :-\

Aussie Bob

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 12 October 09 11:51 BST (UK)

Aussie Bob,

Thanks for your suggestion - yes I have looked at this possibility - now, do you have any way of getting her to Hobart? That would be FANTASTIC! Meanwhile, we can't make the connection so have put that date and person on the back burner. But the thought that Catharine is 'nee' McNally has occurred - specially as she gave herself as 'unmarried' on son Thomas's birth record.

Do you have any further knowledge of the Anne Ransom saga - we have a suggestion that Anne 'Ransom' was in fact a child of Thomas Amos and Catharine, and adopted by Thomas Ransom (and Catharine) - this knowledge came to us via Leo Von Stiegltiz from Tübingen, Germany, who put a post on the Killymoon Blog site. That is the closest we have come to finding Anne's origins and we were hoping to get to Catharine via Anne in that case. If you are married to a descendant it will be via Anne I believe - correct?

Anything you can do to further the cause would be gratefully received. How close have you got?

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: rpoole on Monday 12 October 09 12:15 BST (UK)

Sorry Wiggy,

I did research this some time ago, but only got to about where you are now, less the bit about Thomas Amos. (now that would have been a scandal back in those days if it was known).

As I said, I am only a distant relly, this by virtue of my great grandmother marrying Henry DUCKETT and her daughter Emma, my grandmother, married George POOLE, my grandfather, and Augustus STIEGLITZ, Ann's son, married Henry DUCKETT's sister Sarah, thus forming the distant link.

I will now keep an eye out for any clues of Catherine's journey but sorry I cant be of more help.

Regards, Aussie Bob

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 12 October 09 12:35 BST (UK)

Bad luck Aussie Bob!

Oh well, can't be helped - but nice try wasn't it? That surely is a convoluted link!! But there you go - you just never know what might turn up.

Thanks for making contact and here's hoping an extra pair of eyes will find something!

JM,
What feast of untried newpapers you've put me on to! Keep me going for weeks! Might even take longer as I can't see how to put in the search name to limit the reading!

Cheers,

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 12 October 09 12:38 BST (UK)

Bit More,

T S Amos died Nov 1819 in Sydney aged 42 'after short illness' ... his two orphaned sons returned to UK Feb 1820...

If there was a scandal or even just a dalliance with Catharine in VDL then it would be Jan-Apr 1819.... that would give possible birth for Catharine's child falling around the time of or just after any local Muster (mid spring) ... perhaps she was with her "Accoucher" delivering her baby ;) ::)

Don't you love THAT fashionable word in that era for the MIDWIFE :D

Edit to add baby girl named Ann, perhaps (this from Wiggy's list at the head of this thread)...
1817-19?? Catharine is mother of Ann 'Ransom', fathered by Thomas Amos - no proof of this other than family history as per Leo Von Stieglitz - and we haven't found the time frame to back this up yet. (However you don't get this family story without some historic reason - you don't just 'make this up' specially when we have evidence of a Thomas Amos being in the colonies at the time.)

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: rpoole on Monday 12 October 09 13:09 BST (UK)

Hi again Wiggy,

Do you have any details on Thomas AMOS connecting him to the AMOS brothers, Adam and John, who settled on the East Coast from Scotland and who's offspring married a STIEGLITZ?

Aussie Bob

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 12 October 09 13:14 BST (UK)

Not that I know of - he was a solicitor who arrived and took his place in the legal system in 1817 - seems to have arrived as a widower (needing entertainment apparently!) with two young children. He died in 1819 in Port Jackson of peritonitis, aged 42. He made a trip to VDL in Jan-April of 1819 on legal business, arriving on Derwent and leaving on Surrey

His children returned to England in March 1820 with Mrs Robinson.

Wow - I really know quite a lot about him! But that is about the sum total - I found quite a bit of this last night from the Sydney papers.

That is interesting about the Stieglitz connection to Amos of the East Coast!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: rpoole on Monday 12 October 09 13:30 BST (UK)

Henry Lewis Von STIEGLITZ wed Helen AMOS, daughter of Adam AMOS, at Campbelltown Tas 9/12/1834

Aussie Bob :D

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 12 October 09 13:41 BST (UK)

Small world isn't it! With few-ish names in it in those times!

But, Henry Lewis was a brother of Frederick and Francis - right - so another of the same generation. Not Anne's son I don't think. Her sons were Lewis Frederick, Edgar, Caspar, Oscar and Tasman.

I think I did read that there were more Stieglitz sons - in ADB.

Interesting! Not awfully helpful in getting closer to Catharine!! - but interesting none the less.

Wiggy :D

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 12 October 09 13:44 BST (UK)

Just realized - you said Augustus - I have him down as Augusta - please can you give me his birth and death dates - I don't seem to have them.

And if you have death dates for Lewis, Christina and Selina, that would be really good too!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 12 October 09 13:49 BST (UK)

Thomas Sterrop AMOS married in London 1806 to Elizabeth HAWKES
Adam AMOS 1774-1845 was son of James AMOS, and his wife Helen (nee Hoy).... they were Scots...

Hope that I have found the right genie clues on the geggle search thingy....

Umm, Thomas Sterrop AMOS may be a tad difficult to find, I think it has to be him on an index for marriage records - this name seems to be indexed as ::) Thomas Sterrop Amos ESQUIRE with the surname then coming as as - yep ESQUIRE ::)

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 12 October 09 14:04 BST (UK)

:D ;) I wonder if we are straying off the topic a tad? Just a thought! :D No We are looking for Thomas Amos evidence - right??

Wiggy :)

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: rpoole on Monday 12 October 09 14:11 BST (UK)

I only have details on Augustus Francis STIEGLITZ born 30th Dec 1844 Campbelltown, Tas. died 15th Dec 1928 Tas.

However, wait for it,---------------I think I can solve the Christina riddle for you. I went and checked my notes and with them being only distant rellys I had forgot a vital contact who had given me Christina's details. It is complicated, but in short, I had my previous laptop stolen and lost quite a lot of emails I had not backed up. It is too late tonight, but when I get the detail I need from my contact, I will let you know.

Aussie Bob

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Monday 12 October 09 23:45 BST (UK)

Wiggy and all

OH :-\ frustrating suspense :-\

can't wait to see what Aussie Bob has found

remember I said somehwere sometime someone might find something lost in paperwork etc fingers crosssed this is it :D

regrds an impatient

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: rpoole on Tuesday 13 October 09 01:24 BST (UK)

Hi all,

Sorry to keep you in suspense, but this is from anothers private notes, and I have, a now, invalid email address for him. Hopefully White Pages will help, I have left a message and hopefully will get a call tonight after BH. So
respect this info until I can clear it, which I am sure I will be able to. What I know is this:

Apparently Catherine MCNALLY aka MCNULTY, wife of Michael MCNALLY, arrived Sydney Cove 1807 after being sentenced for 7 years at the Old Bailey in 1806. She supposedly married the Captain of the "Lady Nelson" Benjamin OVERHAND in 1910 at St Phillips Sydney. (I think this should be Bryan OVERHAND who was Captain of both the "Lady Nelson" and "Estramina") see link below:

http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/o/F42c_o-13.htm#OVERHAND, Bryan

In 1814 they had one child. OVERHAND resigned and joined the Navy. Catherine met Thos RANSOM and they moved to Tasmania but as she married in the Colony they could not marry. Thomas supposedly lost his Liquor licence in Hobart as the couple were not married. It is thought Ann may have been born about 1814 and is OVERHAND's daughter but as he had abandoned his wife and child he was not recognised as the father. The rest of Tasmanian events you know.
Michael MCNALLY reportedly died circa 1828 in Liverpool. OVERHAND reportedly died about the same time leaving Catherine free to marry Frederick Von Stieglitz.

I hope to know more after tonight, in the meantime, none of this is substantiated and, as I said, should be treated with respect for now. Until then, Regards

Aussie Bob

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 13 October 09 02:18 BST (UK)

Hi Aussie Bob,

No, No, No :D- -don't go there please!! :D We've been there and proved it wrong!! Sorry, but no! Please go back to the first 6 pages of the linked thread we had going and there you will find all our arguments for and against.

But having said that, thanks so much for trying and for your interest! Do keep in touch!

Welcome back Robyn.

Cheers, and much laughter,

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 13 October 09 02:47 BST (UK)

David,

I wonder if you realized how far your research would reach over the years!! smiling hugely!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 13 October 09 03:21 BST (UK)

Wiggy,

Having reread our earlier efforts I can't see where we totally disproved this theory unlesss it is in the bits edited out for breach of copyright.

Interesting that this same theory has come from a totally uninvolved party to our original theorising etc.

I know we really don't want to revisit this theory but perhaps we should review what we had that disproved it with a more critical eye? Leave no stone unturned?

Would be nice to know what material they have to back up their theory too.

still looking for you

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 13 October 09 03:31 BST (UK)

Hi Robyn,
I detect David's research in this - I think Aussie Bob's info might have come via someone who knew of David's research! The stories are too similar and they peter out at the same point that he had got to before joining the fray with us.
Mrs Catherine Overand was still happily living in Sydney in 1822 and 1828 musters! David himself proved that - that's when he may his apology to all and sundry at about post 100 on the old, linked thread. I'm pretty sure we can put that one to rest!

Cheers,

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 13 October 09 03:42 BST (UK)

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: rpoole on Tuesday 13 October 09 04:05 BST (UK)

Well, well, well, :o

Amazing what confusion a stolen laptop, a changed email address, ignorance of the initial thread and only a passing interest in the original notes I received, can cause. :( Oh well, I guess the puzzle remains for you to ponder. :D

Its a small world, David himself is the contact I lost track of and got the original advice from. We will have a laugh over this when we do catch up. ;D I need to send him details of a book I am about to publish, so, as a 2nd barrel, it would be great if someone can get him to PM me and I can give him my email address.

Happy Hunting,

Aussie Bob

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 13 October 09 04:11 BST (UK)

Hmm - I thought so! ;)

I reckon he'll read your posting any time fairly soon and answer you himself!

Where is Mayfield House? - Richmond? Looks very nice!

Cheers, :D

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: rpoole on Tuesday 13 October 09 04:24 BST (UK)

Hi Wiggy,

Mayfield was built by my GGG Grandfather, Thomas Buxton, who arrived in 1821 as a free settler aboard the "Westmoreland" and is on the East Coast of Tassy just north of Little Swanport. It is a grand house steeped in history. 8) (see book details in for sale thread)

Regards, Aussie Bob

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 13 October 09 05:06 BST (UK)

Nice!
Thanks for info - will go and look at sale info right now.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Tuesday 13 October 09 06:40 BST (UK)

Bit More,

1820 McNally sighting in VDL

On an online INDEX at http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8
Could this be HER

390149 - presume this is a file number at the Tasmanian Archives Office, sorry, I am in NSW, so I have not got ready access to that primary record... only the online index...

MCNALLY CATHERINE 1820 marriage or relationship 1820 Hobart...
possibly its for birth of Thomas, - Umm I've read back through the old thread, not sure, but .... perhaps this contains info about Catharine's relationship with Thomas Ransom, and has details of how she got to VDL, her birth, her parents, her children- so many genie things to consider -any signatures, any witnesses, any addresses, any neighbours, any genie clues at all.

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 13 October 09 07:08 BST (UK)

Pretty sure that is Thomas Jnr's birth - Nov 1820 and baptised Dec 1820. Just been to that site - can't see what you are looking at but pretty sure

Edit - found it - yes that's Jnr's birth

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 13 October 09 07:16 BST (UK)

JM,

Pretty sure this is just what it says, but look at how many Catha(e)rines there are but no parents etc. Pity there is on more info available. 390193 is her marriage to Steiglitz still with no dob etc. NO death their for Ransom either.

These are not 100% accurate, my GGGgrandma shows up in the Tassie 1837 census but not in the TCFL although her parents and siblings are in it. Not all material is verified by teh archives office. So like the IGI you need to be wary of of it but it is a good starting point.

NB Ann Ransom birth 1817 verified by archives office as is her marriage to Von Steiglitz ans her death. BUT no parent names given!!!

regards
all

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Tuesday 13 October 09 07:42 BST (UK)

Ta Robyn,

Does that mean that TAO accepts submitted records ummm, .... Umm, wonder who submitted it and when ? I checked again, but no submittor names :'( Pity, Wiggy could have written to them...

As an aside, Robyn you could consider submitting your GGG Gran's entry to TAO ;D

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Tuesday 13 October 09 08:01 BST (UK)

Can't leave you lot alone for a minute!

Good old Bryan- I lost track of him at Table Cape in 1820! It wasn't me that disproved the theory- it was Robyn, I think, who found Mrs Overend (nee McNaltyof Sydney Cove 1806) alive in Sydney in 1822 Muster as I recall. But it wouldn't wash now, after all the concentrated researching of the past 3 months or so. There is no way that Catherine could have been in Hobart from 1814, and no way she could have known Thomas briefly in Sydney in 1814 and then popped up in Hobart in 1819to be declared as his wife- unless it wass John McNally (not Bryan Overhand) who knew Thomas Ransom in Norfolk Island days or at Sydney in 1814, and by coincidence went to VDL in 1816 with commonlaw wife Catharine in employ of Cummings of Cummings, and met Thomas again in Hobart when Anne Cummings and she absconded. That fits- and will give Wiggy fits!

Cathrina McNallywho married John Bowen in 1807 is still not out of contention, even though John Bowen/Bourne who died Sydney 1809 was not the John Bowen that Cathrina married. Neither is Catherine McNally the Methodist/Quaker born Sussex 1789 out of play- only trouble is getting either of them to Sydney!

Sorry to have lead you up the garden path, Bob, comes from sitting on Catharines'e grave from time to time- could have sworn the hawthorn hedge whispered "Nelson, remember Nelson"

McNally the seaman, the sealer, per Governor Macquarie ,goes back to before 1810 in Sydney. and don't forget John McNally aged 11 living in the house of Ann Clemensin Sydney per 1822 Muster).

Welcome to all the new players in Team Catharine!

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 13 October 09 08:02 BST (UK)

Yes it was archives office dates that I found for Anne's marriage - but she could have given them the wrong dates I suppose. VERY TRICKY! :D round and round we go!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 13 October 09 08:04 BST (UK)

JM,

Just read all th e info given on the homepage and the info given on codes on the results page to find out how the information has been arrived at. The Archives have a disclaimer there too re the accuracy of the information.

Quote

Links made by the National Heritage Foundation have been built up from a diverse range of sources which have not themselves been checked Dates of birth which do not give a place are based upon age at death or marriage and therefore may not be accurate..

and

Quote

@ indicates that the date give for a marriage is derived from the date of the first identified birth of a child to the two people and therefore may not be accurate. In such cases the place is derived in the same way and may not be accurate.
[AO] indicates data added, and verified from other records, by the Archives Office
[c] indicates that data is derived from christening/baptism records
[t] indicates that the data is derived from TAMIOT (Tombstone and Memorial Inscriptions of Tasmania)

and I guess I could try after reading this particularly as they have provided me with copies of teh census info and the parents marriages and immigration details. MMM worth a try.

Quote

The Archives Office will consider up-dating the information available from the database by adding new links or amending existing links based on information supplied by members of the public.

regards

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 13 October 09 08:05 BST (UK)

Welcome back David! You nearly got left behind the action has been so fast!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Tuesday 13 October 09 08:11 BST (UK)

Bob, there were 14 Popes with my name as a surname which means "mild and humane in the exercise of'power or authority, Goliath is the name of a building material you find in bags and is manufactured by the owner of Cornwall Coal at Fingal, mild weather may be so described, I am singular,and I'm the only one in St Marys telephone directory with the initial D, and would like to know your views on amalgamation , see todays Examiner page 8 column 5.
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 13 October 09 09:31 BST (UK)

Well, that stopped us all in our tracks didn't it?! :D

I am inspired to quote G&S - it's nothing whatever to do with the case, its nothing to do with the case! i do love G&S - they have a quote for all occasions! :D

Back to the search!! Oh Cath-arine - Where are you!! Can you hear us calling?

Cheers

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Tuesday 13 October 09 11:51 BST (UK)

Bit More,

there's C McNally aboard the Brig, Lynx of Calcutta, departing PJ in Oct 1817 and on the NSW 1817 muster,

BUT

that McNally was crew, and the voyage was to : CHINA.

that C McNally was noted on that muster as "Free by birth in N S Wales 1793"

Still searching

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Tuesday 13 October 09 11:54 BST (UK)

Bit More,

the John McNally, crew on board "Endeavour" in April 1817, bound for Bass Strait ( :D) he was free by birth in N S Wales and had served as crew on other vessels previously...

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: rpoole on Tuesday 13 October 09 15:11 BST (UK)

Hi David and all,

I have read some of War and Peace (original thread) and, HELLO, wrong David. Mine has nothing whatsoever to do with Popes, Cement or any kind of weather, however, 6 years ago,he did supply me with identical details as those in Davclem's original posting. ??? I live in Melbourne on that large Island off the north coast of Tassy, so do not get the Examiner delivered. Nevertheless I am happy to comment on the amalgamation if you provide me with the article. ::)

I have had no luck re-establishing contact with my source, however I will keep my eye out for any clue to help solve the Catherine issue. Happy hunting,

Aussie Bob

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 13 October 09 23:36 BST (UK)

Hi all,

I like this

Quote

Catherine McNally the Methodist/Quaker born Sussex 1789 out of play- only trouble is getting either of them to Sydney!

how well it sits with the description of our Catharine JM's replies263 & 271 old thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,383665.270.html

Quote

and conducted herself in all the various relations of humble life, with credit to herself and injury to no one,

and

Quote

That letter to the editor clearly explains that the impediment to Catharine's marriage WAS WITH CATHARINE. "because it was discovered that the faithful and valuable female, ..... was unhappily unable to enter into the legal estate of matrimony, in consequences of circumstances of long previous existence not within her own control, which she could neither alter nor recur to....

This puzzle is yet to be resolved, WHAT WAS THE IMPEDIMENT?
Was a prior husband still alive?
Was he in an asylum/prison?
Had she a legal contract of some kind ie a provision in a will that prevented her from marrying for a set period? something we have not yet considered.

There is still lots to find.

good sleuthing

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 14 October 09 02:15 BST (UK)

Hi all,

Just to note re two McNally crewmen, (recent posts on this thread) although "free by birth in N S Wales" - I have not found their births/christenings recorded on the NSW BDM online index... of course, it was not compulsory to register in those times... - that very lack of registration being the central "missing link" on this search of Catharine! Also "free by birth" may suggest that one or both of their parents had a convict background...

Robyn has been considering Catharine's "impediment" - the legal contract concept is interesting and should not be overlooked ;) well thought out Robyn ,
....and Catharine became aware of the loss of that impediment after Thomas Ransom died and before she married Von Stieglitz.... - so Catharine became aware in 1829 that she was free to marry.... so if she were the Catherine McNally, Methodist/Quaker born Sussex 1789 she was about 40, but perhaps looked much younger ....

Still looking

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 14 October 09 05:02 BST (UK)

Wiggy, JM,and all,

I am beginning to feel that Catharine was older than we believe, she had so few children or rather we are only aware of 1 possibly 2 children born in Tasmania.

If she is the quaker Catherine, it would go quite a way to explaining her seeming celebate lifestyle (even living with Ransom), her charity, her upstanding character and the lack of scandal around her at the time, for as we have discovered fingers were quick to be pointed.

Can't find anything in the UK archives, only 3 McNally wills in the time frame, to be found!! unusual.

NLA has
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2541642 on qakers in early australia and
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/1615058 a list of quakers inAustralia pre 1862 in their holdings.

TAs Libray has from slightly alter photos fo prominent Quakers:
http://images.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/Search/Search.asp?Letter=R&Subject=Religious+Society+of+Friends+(Quakers)+in+Australia

good hunting

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 14 October 09 05:55 BST (UK)

Interesting isn't it? ;)

If she were the wife of John McNally of the Cummings entourage, then she had about four/five children in all - IF - - three with John, possibly one with Thomas Amos and one with Thomas Ransom. BUT it is all one big IF so far. There is another McNally in the state - James - and there seem to be two more McNally children - Margaret and Patrick - we don't know if they are John's or James'. I haven't seen the records yet - all the more to look up when we go to Tassie to investigate. The two later children are not Catharine's I believe - she would have been with Thomas by then I think. But there's nothing positive yet. It sure is an interesting jigsaw this one!

I've noted your comments Robyn and JM - not ignoring them- just don't have anything to add one way or the other - so for once in my life I am staying silent on the matter, until I can prove or disprove something!

Cheers,

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 14 October 09 05:55 BST (UK)

. CATHARINE BROWN - International Genealogical Index JOHN X CHRISTIANA
Gender: Female Christening: 25 JAN 1789 Quay Meeting House-Independent, Woodbridge, Suffolk, England

Sorry ,Team, am in too much of a rush these days, so have lead you astray by not providing the correct detail in my throw away remark re Catharine the Methodist/Quaker

I searched for an IGI hit involving 1789 as a birth/christening date, Catharine wiv an "a"as the forename and a mother called Christina or Christiana, and up popped the only hit as the above. I have googled and Jeeved through Methodist Missionaries etc and history and records of the Quay Meeting House, to no avail. We would be looking for a Catharine nee Brown in Sydney in partnership with a McNally giving birth to a John McNally in 1811, to fit the rest of our construct from 1816 on- not exactly a pillar of Methodist rectitude.

She would have come either on her own( why?) say between 1805 (age16) 1810, or with her parents. Unless her mother's maiden name was McNally ( I think I checked and it wasn't), she could only have become Catharine McNally by association or identity swapping for some reason.

A bit thin all round, but all is grist to the mill while we flail, although Brown is only marginally less challenging than Smith.

Catharine McNally mother of Thomas 1820 ,assumed to be the "wife" of Thomas Ransom in 1819 Muster, was either a free unencumbered spirit called McNally, or belonged to someone called McNally whose name she was prepared to carry despite no continuing association, or had stolen the name because it hid her true identity. We know nothing certain about her under this name before 1820, other than the claim she was born c1789. All other Catharines in VDL 1811-1819 per the usual available records seem(!) to have been accounted for ( why does Catharine Belbin tinkle bells with me). She was McNally at birth of Thomas in 1820, She is McNally in Thomas' will 1829, she was McNally at marriage to FLS in 1830. What was the impediment to marriage in 1825 that didn't exist in 1830?. Is there evidence in the Archives of the snitch's advice to Governor Arthur or did he just whisper in his ear or was it such common knowlege but overlooked in such a small community because whe was generally liked and respected. Seems to me that it is the 1825 records that need to be sought and searched , if they exist- back to the newspaper reports,get dates, and then to Archives to search for the scuttlebutt.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 14 October 09 05:59 BST (UK)

Sorry Bob! thought you lived down the road at Mayfield.. Yes, well that was a load of cobblers then,wasn't it. Two Davids both with the same (WRONG) story- this saga becomes more bizarre every twist and turn- welcome to Wiggy's world !

David 2

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 14 October 09 06:23 BST (UK)

Hi all,
I still don't believe too much in co-incidences as you say 2 DAVES, with the same story oh how much of it from the same source or are the stories from totally different sources?

We need to know the source!!.

found a submission for : Catherine L Brown b 1789 in the IGI who married a Patrick Doyle in Sydney 1809 and two children. http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Search/frameset_search.asp not in NSW Index.

regards
Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 14 October 09 06:59 BST (UK)

I'm a bit with Wiggy on this , Robyn, it doesn't seem right that Catharine is having and leaving a trail of offspring behind from about 1808ish. One in 1811 I can cope with, who is taken by his fatherR in 1819 when the schism occurs, but not litters !.
Wiggy, I think(!) Margaret and Patrick were James Macanally offspring- don't ask me about the others- but a second John for John already with an 1811 John seems unlikey.
Waggons Roll!
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 14 October 09 07:16 BST (UK)

Hi Robyn,

I received the same info re 'the old story' from rellies in Sydney too - so the story has travelled far and wide. Just look at all the Catha(e)rines turning up along the way - why should two Davids worry you?! :D All part of the fun and difficulties!

Cheers

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 14 October 09 08:17 BST (UK)

David,

I wonder if Belbin is getting confused with Giblin (?sp) - school master of Thomas Jnr? possible do you think? Is there a Catharine Belbin??

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 14 October 09 08:35 BST (UK)

Wiggy and David,

Catharine was not leaving a trail of offspring behind her which is my point. ???

Thomas 1820 we are fairly sure is her child but questions still remain no parents names given on the Tassie site.Has anyone sighted the baptismal records? Can't find any of them on the early censuses only Thomas as Ransom 1848 in Fingal and MRS Stieglitz in 1843. AS Wiggy has said she certainly knew how to hide herself from officialdom.

Catharine is also said to have "adopted" another child presumed by us to be Ann?

And if she was John McNally's wife there was the child in 1811 (indexed as macannaly/macanulty)Has anyone checked the original church record ? Then we still have only a maximum 3 children to a young healthy woman. Yes Ransom was "old" but if he fathered Thomas why not more children in their years together?

All supports the evidence of her being an upright pillar of the colonial society such as it was then. So we are still no further forward.

keep on sleuthing

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 14 October 09 08:46 BST (UK)

Wiggy

Belbin is certaily contemporary to our time frame but most likely irrelevant see:http://boards.ancestry.ca/surnames.belbin/3.2.1.1/mb.ashx one of the threads is

Quote

Iam also a direct desendant of James Belbin and would like to contact anyone who may be able to help with some Detail relating to Jame's daughter Catherine (Kate ) afterher first husband Richard Becroft/bearcroft drowned in 1820.

Quote

and another i don,t have any thing on catherine belbin though she is my direct decendant i have only been working on the direct

3 wives and 18 children and a convict to NI, back to England and returned to Tassie and founded a dynasty!!! You mentioned Barbara Cartland in the old thread!!

also on a tree http://wilsonsoftasmania.familytreeguide.com/getperson.php?personID=I6856&tree=T1&PHPSESSID=3ebe4b549851e871889a1f30c8cdf334

and this

Quote

4 Catherine Belbin (twin); b. 12 Sep 1798 at Norfolk Island.
m. (1) 9 Sep 1816 at St David's Hobart to Richard Bexcroft alias Brown. d. 7 Feb 1820.
m. (2) 27 May 1823, St David's Hobart to Samuel Collings, n.i. Children (4):

from http://www.devel20.freezone.co.uk/fz156/australian.html

rules her out ;D

good reading all

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 14 October 09 09:35 BST (UK)

Yes Robyn, I've seen the baptismal record for Thomas in 1820 to Catharine 'unmarried' and no father's name. Not a huge help really - that's what I went for first when in Hobart last!

Thanks for other info re Belbin.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 14 October 09 12:16 BST (UK)

Evening All (Dixon of Dock Green),

Just a reminder that Catherine was not only well regarded by the Land Commissioner and by the Hermit of VDL, but she had a very good rapport with bushrangers and convicts- Matthew Brady was assigned to her and Thomas on his arrival in Hobart 1820 , and Matthew subsequently used the door of their inn (the Royal Oak) to post his Notice of reward for the capture of Governor Arthur in 1826, and in 1837 Martin Cash thought that she was the bees Knees when he worked at Killymoon for a year. Incidentally it was Cash who identifies Ann as the adopted daughter of Catharine (and FLS).

Back to Friday 3rd June 1825, the open letter to His Honour Lieutenant Governor Arthur etc, on pages 3-4 of the Hobart Town Gazette and VDL Adveriser part of which refers to Mr Ransom and " the faithful and valuable female who has for years borne his name" about which some persecuting hypocrite ferreted out" that wed they were not, as part of a severe scrutiny of the honourable body of the publicans of Hobart Town, the thrust of the article being that Arthur was surrounded by a mob of despicable spin doctors. The Private secretary at the time was Captain John Montagu. The relevant records , if any, would seem tobe included in The Arthur Files (CSO1), the Register of General Correspondence (CSO2) and Index to same (CSO3) and the Colonial Secretarys Letters (CSO 35) But it would be worth checking the website of the AOT ( ARchives Office Tasmania) for the Guide to Public Records Of Tasmania -Colonial Secretarys Office and another Guide- The Governors Ofice.

The AOT also refers to an inquest 23 July 1838 into the death of a James McNally ( Inquest 204 (ref SC 195/1/4)

Happy hunting
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 14 October 09 12:26 BST (UK)

Wiggy, my friend,"I am but mad north-north-west: when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw." --Hamlet, Act II, scene ii ...I may have erred over Bryan, but I know my Belbin from my Giblin David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 14 October 09 13:18 BST (UK)

Glad I'm still called friend then, in spite of thinking you might be confused!

Robyn has saved chasing up on that one!! Thanks Robyn.

Cheers

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 15 October 09 01:38 BST (UK)

For those in the team still interested in Captain John Cummings, I refer you to page 170 of the 1988 edition of "THe women of Botany Bay"( Portia Robinson) which outlines the 1809 action by Catherine Cotton against Capt John Cummings for wrongfully selecting her land at Cotton's Point on the North Shore of Sydney for a grant. David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 02:32 BST (UK)

Hi all,

Re Catherine's IMPEDIMENT to a marriage

I don't have access to that book at the minute about the Women of BB, but .... from memory I think that Catherine Cotton may have been associated with a chap in the NSW military, something about the Rum Corps .... I will try to figure out what.... I thought Cottons Pt was on Parramatta River near The Kissing Point on the northern shore of that river ...

I am still trying to follow up on several clues about AMOS, either TS, the legal eagle or Adam, the police constable - also
I am still trying to follow up on Francis Spencer (ie the former husband of Jane, the lass who worked in 1825 for Mrs Ransom in VDL).

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 15 October 09 02:53 BST (UK)

JM, don't bother with Catharine Cotton, she's Sydney based and well accounted for. And the Amos of the East Coast are not relevant to the search, but Jane Spencer is an interesting find, and shows that there are still Catharine traces we wot not of, which you are all steadily uncovering- we'll get there yet

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 02:56 BST (UK)

Bit More,

MRS Catherine Cotton had left HER dwelling house at THE ROCKS, Sydney by May 1812
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/628469?searchTerm=%22catherine+cotton%22
and she was selling it in 1809
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/627842?searchTerm=%22catherine+cotton%22
and
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/627849?searchTerm=%22catherine+cotton%22

Also, (this from NSW Col Sec index)
COTTON, Catherine

1809 Oct 6 Memorial (a letter or petition to the Col Sec)
1810 Jan land on North Shore purchased by Edward Redmond

I will try to figure out where Mrs Catherine Cotton went to ;)

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 03:05 BST (UK)

Umm,
Catherine Cotton Sydney based . ???... Thanks David, but umm, on quick NSW BDM I cannot find her in NSW at all....

of course, still searching !

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 03:12 BST (UK)

Bit more,

Jane Spencer (the lady working for Mrs Ransom ie Catharine McNally, in VDL in 1825), seems to have several children with her husband (Francis) from around 1810 to 1819 and then another in 1825 - a girl, named Jane.... perhaps twas not just the loss of Mr & Mrs Ransom's licence in VDL that may have been behind Catharine's urging Jane to return to Sydney...

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 03:23 BST (UK)

Bit More,

Jane & Francis Spencer noted as parents for a baby named Jane, dying in NSW in 1825.... :'(

Francis Spencer in abt 1820 in VDL... as a letter was waiting for him there.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/658935?searchTerm=%22francis+spencer%22

Could that be where the apparent blemish on Catharine McNally's character was "aired"

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 04:02 BST (UK)

Jane was in her 59th year when she died in Clarence St Sydney NSW in 1854, relic of the LATE Mr Francis Spencer of LAUNCESTON VDL (although it seems that he died in Victoria abt 1851)

Those various people certainly moved around !

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8775631?searchTerm=%22francis+spencer%22

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 04:18 BST (UK)

Hi all,

especially Robyn, re your thoughts on Catharine's possible year of birth....

I have noticed a submitted tree (ummm ::) yes I know) .... I have spotted a Catherine Mcnally born Ireland 1781.... the tree is a private tree, so I have sent a message to the tree owner asking politely for some further information.... I discreetly mentioned Tasmania, a possible second marriage there in about 1830... Tree owner active so keep fingers crossed !!!

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 06:47 BST (UK)

Bit More,

From a submitted tree, (yes I know ::) ) Ireland, Monaghan ? birth 1781 of Owen McNally.... married to a Catherine MECADUM around 1800, three children, last one in 1812.... no further trace of the couple after 1812.... although at least one child stayed in Ireland and married there; another went to Canada and married there...

However, on off-chance anyOwen McNally may be part of Catherine's "impediment" here's one

Owen MCNALLY as a crewman in January 1823 on Elizabeth & Mary to or from MACQUARIE ISLAND and he was not born in the colony . There's a ;D "Free by Certificate no" Umm.... 16/2 (and other digits, hard to read, could be
16/268 or even 4 digits...

EDIT to note, I think the "16" in the Certificate number refers to the year 1816, being the year the servitude/sentence of transportation was complete...

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Thursday 15 October 09 07:24 BST (UK)

Well, that's interesting - you've been a one man band this afternoon JM!

I've just re-found my 'find' of Catharine McNally baptised 1790 - on Family Search - also Ireland and also submitted by LDS with no further info available. ( Fly/sail me to the ~~moon~~ south and let me . . . . )

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 15 October 09 07:24 BST (UK)

The Mitchell Library advise its MCNANALTY for the 1811 birth/baptism entry for John/Catharine

"Searched the microfilm for baptisms at St Philips, Sydney. The Mitchell Library and the Society of Australian Genealogists (SAG) have microfilmed many original church registers. These are different to the New South Wales Registry's copy of the parish registers: the New South Wales Registry's copy of the parish registers are not of the original entires but clergy returns sent in to the New South Wales Registry. Therefore, checking the original church registers can be worthwhile in case of omissions or additions made by the clergy when they transcribed parish registers to send to the authorities. I checked reel 0090 Volume 2, Baptisms October 1809 – December 1811,page numbers 151-167, frames 180-197 and the entry at 23! 3. It was identical to the V1811233 5/1811 entry and gave no further information about Catherine other than she was the wife of John MACANALTY and their son John was born on 18/7/1811 and christened on 8/9/1811. It was much easier to read the surname on this reel and it is clear that it is Macanalty. I rechecked the Mutch Index using that surname and found a cross-reference."

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 15 October 09 07:27 BST (UK)

Oops! fat finger syndrome generating too many Ns David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 07:49 BST (UK)

Hi All,

Well done David.... that's one more Catherine accounted for and off the list... and the State Library records often are more reliable for those pre 1830's events... I have found several of my forebears christenings on NSWSL records but not on NSW BDM ... and have found the films to be much easier to read.... I no longer live near enough to get to the SL, but its got very very good records.

Just a thought re Catharine's birthdate.... Have just re-read the Jane Spencer advertisement http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2184372?searchTerm=%22jane+spencer%22 to see if there's any clues about Catharine's age... and I again note that Jane Spencer addresses her as Mrs Ransom, but also.... Mrs Ransom would seem to be older than Jane.... giving her "motherly" advice...

Jane Spencer was in her 59th year when she died in 1854.... My maths indicates this would suggest Jane was born in 1794 ish... So I think this also supports the suggestion (twas it Robyn who mentioned it ;) ) that Catharine may be older than first considred.. and perhaps her age of 68 was a slip by the typesetter or her husband giving her some privacy from any prying eyes...
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2460475?searchTerm=%22stieglitz%22

Still searching ;)

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Thursday 15 October 09 08:20 BST (UK)

Wow,
Stong ad. Makes you wonder about the prying eyes etc, seems to be worse than today.

Dave: So we now rule out Catherine Macanulty wife of John, So how many Catherines are we left with? Perhaps she is up to 10 years older than our first estimate.

Wiggy I know you feel it unlikely but eveidence is very suggestive of this.

Owen and Catharine need to be researched as this is a lead not encountered before.Do we have a death date yet for Owen?

Surely this is not him: http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2197096?searchTerm=owen+mcnally

fixed

good sleuthing people

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 08:33 BST (UK)

Bit More,

This is for Thomas Ransom's death.... notice the paper indicates his beneficiaries were his immediate family.... http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8644117?searchTerm=%22thomas%22

Just read Robyn's post,
Not yet found Owen McNally's death but I'm hoping that the reference number for his Certificate of Freedom will lead somewhere...

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Thursday 15 October 09 08:48 BST (UK)

JM,

Have fixed but you can always copy and paste the address into your searchengine too.
(Owen McNally was aged 70 and sentenced to 6 months in an iron gang!!!)

found 2 deaths in the NSW Index one for 1835 the same year as the above article, and another aged 59 in 1857 and he would be too young to have been married and having children in the early 1800's.
Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 09:07 BST (UK)

Ta Robyn,

I'm still struggling to figure out the Certificate of Freedom ! for Owen McNally... obviously he had done his time by 1823, I think in fact he had done his time by 1816, but I have not yet confirmed what the "16" represented...

That 70 year old sentenced to iron gang work in 1835.. very sad...

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Thursday 15 October 09 09:28 BST (UK)

Well

have been look at Ireland re Owen Mc Nally

VVV interesting

http://www.nationalarchives.ie/search/index.php?category=18

while I find him mentioned and also found a muchlater Catherine Mc Nally/ Catherine Shaw transported in 1847 to Tasmaina. Owen in his own right does not turn up. It seems that he and Patrick Maguire attmpted to abduct a female surname Mc Nally. This is in a petiton from Patrick's mother.

Oh to see the trial papers!!!

also a possible mention in this book: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=aQQeiv7Zza8C&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=%22owen+mcnally%22+covict&source=bl&ots=VInsQuWfM-&sig=utEyv8I1H0GBs7O-4TNdYVjtW00&hl=en&ei=nd3WStqGFoPxkAXmnN3GCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false but whether it is the ame person ???
and in here http://colsec.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/colsec/w/F62c_win-wy-16.htm

perhaps here http://search.ancestry.ca/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=aussavingsbank&so=2&pcat=CLP_BANK&_80004000=mcnulty&sbo=1&gss=angs-c

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 15 October 09 09:34 BST (UK)

No, No, No! the Mitchell library advice does NOT mean that Catharine wife of John Mcanalty and mother of 1811 John is eliminated- it is just another example of variations in spelling of the name of the same person. The linch pin of the Mcnally/Cummings/Amos/Ransom scenario is the 1816 employment notice, but the 1811 birth gives us the name Catharine, and John Mcanalty/McNally was active as a sealer in Sydney pre 1811,and don't forget the switch in the 1819 muster from James Macanlly being per Boddingtons to John McNally being per Boddingtons. This is not a reference to be dumped! But it does mean that we are looking for a Catharine X who existed as X before 1811 but dissappeared and became McNally after1811.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 09:37 BST (UK)

Hi David,

Umm, what 1816 employment notice (no, first name is not Pauline, but PLEASE EXPLAIN ;D)

OK, I have put that 1811 sighting back on MOI list ;)

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 15 October 09 09:43 BST (UK)

Re Catharines possible age, rather than the aad in 1857- when I introduced Catharine McNally marrying John Bowen in 1806/07 , it required Catherine to be born 1781- I can accept a 7-8 year fudge of dates- after all The Hermit in VDL describing FLS courtship of Catherine at the Royal Oak in 1829 put her on the wrong side of 40-she could have been up to 48. But in that case she was 39 when young Thomas was born in 1820, so I think that 1781 is the limit
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 15 October 09 09:49 BST (UK)

The notice in the Sydney Gazette 6th January 1816

MR. CUMMINGS, of Port Dalrymple, gives Notice of his intention to return to that Set-
tlement by the Brothers, Colonial Vessel ; and of his intention also to take down with him (under a yearly engagement) John McNally and Wife.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 09:56 BST (UK)

Thanks David,

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2176495?searchTerm=%22cummings%22 of course !

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 10:00 BST (UK)

I think this cutting would be of interest, its about Mrs Cummings and her children, at PD in Sept 1820, her daughter aged 11 and her son aged 3, saved, but not Mrs Cummings..

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/658366?searchTerm=%22cummings%22

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 15 October 09 11:19 BST (UK)

Henry Savery (4 August 1791 - 6 February 1842) wrote a series of sketches of activities and personages in the colony.[8] These were published in the Colonial Times and, collected in the book The Hermit of Van Diemen's Land (1829). under the pseudonym 'Simon Stukeley' , No 28 December 11 1829 describes the courtship of Catharine in the RoyalOak by Stieglitz , “a certain very gentlemany man, a native of the Emerald Isle” and another suitor, “a darkish complextioned middle aged man of spare habit and long visage”. Catharine is described as “the good, notable,clever and obliging mistress of the house, although she is not all she has been , she has still not yet so far o’erstepped the meridian of her days as to have lost the possession of much, for which doubtless, she has heretofore been greatly admired”
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Thursday 15 October 09 11:24 BST (UK)

Hi all, What a busy evening you've all been having!
Some of you, JM, have forgotten that my forté is looking up papers! It is my one strength!! While you all do important things, I look up papers!! :D I find Thomas Amos's death and his poor orphaned sons grieving, Thomas's death, Thomas's Will, Catharine's probate notice, Catharine's/Christina's marriage, Ann Cumming's death by drowning, etc,etc - and I did think I shared it with you all - 'cos it was the one contribution I was making!! :D Didn't I?? ;) It's OK - you can look them up again - I don't mind!

Is anyone the slightest bit interested in: Catharine McNally baptised 6 Jan 1790 - Ireland. Daughter of Henry and Mrs Alice McNally - (an unsubstantiated LDS entry?) :-\ Me - I like her already - and if I could spirit her to VDL I would!

Good to see you all working so hard - if I could, by way of a thank you, I'd send you all a bunch of aromatic herbs which are growing in profusion in my garden!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 11:25 BST (UK)

Ah, thanks David,

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8644742?searchTerm=%22emerald%22

I think this would be the cutting for that courtship.

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 15 October 09 11:34 BST (UK)

Re Ann Ransom, adopted daughter of Catharine-

I have re-read" The Personal narrative of Martin Cash ". For some reason Wiggy wants Ann to be born 1817, while the Amos/Ann Cummings theory I have advanced ( which is simply a variation of Leo Stieglitz claim that Ann was the daughter of Amos/ Catharine) requires her to be born about November/December 1819.

However, Martin Cash, who spent a year at Killymoon in 1837 is quite clear "Her son, a young man of about 18 years of age , and an adopted daughter some years younger, constituted the family". Thomas born in 1820 would be about 18 in 1837, so Ann was born at least 1821 and by the sound of it possibly about 1824-25- so she couldn't be the daughter of Amos (who died in 1819) .

However we know (John Cummings Notice) that Ann Cummings absconded before 1819 and that McNally's wife ( presumed as Catherine of 1811 birth notice) was employed by the Cummings 1816-1817 at least, so the servant/companion fleeing with her mistress theory still holds as possible- just we take Ann Ransom out of the equation.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 11:34 BST (UK)

Sorry Wiggy,

Would you be so kind as to look up the paper for Friday 27 November 1829 page 4, of the Colonial Times (Hobart, Tas. : 1828-1857) cause I want to know more about Catharine.... perhaps there's a description of the Royal Oak even...

Umm, your LDS lass baptised 6 Jan 1790 in Ireland, a daughter of Henry and Alce McNally.... Ummm..... love herbs...

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Thursday 15 October 09 11:36 BST (UK)

Pride comes before . . . OK so I didn't find that one - thanks JM! ( Too late now!!)

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Thursday 15 October 09 11:47 BST (UK)

David,
I only want her to be born then because that's when the archives say she was born (and they are only on given info I know) - I don't think she was born after 1821 - so maybe there was another person living in the house as a daughter at the time of Martin Cash - (either that or Anne had been using that wonderful cream JM and I were talking about earlier which keeps you looking very young!)
I am actually coming round to the 1819 scenario - I don't know who the adopted daughter of Martin Cash's diary was - just a youthful Anne? She can't have been too much younger - she was married in 1840 - 3 years after Marin Cash was there, and he says Thomas was about 18 so . . . Anne was supposed to be about 22 at marriage.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 11:54 BST (UK)

Umm,

Child born Nov-Dec 1819 and another born in 1820 to same mother .... umm, not usually possible, particularly as both survive... umm, unless there was a wet-nurse employed...

But child born 1820, and then some time later, a younger child was adopted into the family.... yes that's much more likely........

And as Wiggy points out, there's that submitted LDS lass in Ireland in ~~1890~~ 1790 oops, fixed now....

What age was given when Ann Ransom/McNally wed please ? (Sorry, I see 22)

Umm, and the Royal Oak and the licencee and the Hermit's tales all very interesting to read in the papers.... The Widow, Catharine, could well be that Irish lass !!! two suitors and a hint that The Hermit knows she was not necessarily a "legal" widow..., so perhaps Frederick also knew all about the tale as told by Prying Eyes... Well we all know that those from the Emerald Isle are good upright and truthful people...

As Robyn quoted from Alice earlier on this thread, I add "now opening out like the largest telescope that ever was"

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 15 October 09 11:54 BST (UK)

Wiggy,
Oh keen and analytical brain- put finger on the flaw in the argument immediately- how could I have forgotten that Ann was married in 1840 stating age as 22, therefore born c 1818- otherwise being born in (say) 1825 she would have been 15 at marriage.

So Martin Cash could not judge the age of young wommen? He lived there for a year for Heavens sake! and he had Bessy with him to put him right! Just another conundrum

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Thursday 15 October 09 12:01 BST (UK)

JM, (that was 1790 - not that anyone's counting)
See that was my argument last time this came round on the merry-go-round - two children in successive years - both at the back end of the year - so very short time between pregnancies - still, read the offspring lists in the family, and it did happen!

Don't know David - but Anne just doesn't gel does she?

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Thursday 15 October 09 12:06 BST (UK)

She could just about have managed to be 22 in 1840 if born 1819 - just about - maybe give herself one year! But married in May and if the Thomas Amos theory holds, would have been born end of 1819! You are right - it is a conundrum.
doesn't anyone like my 1790 Irish girl??? :'( See what happens David - regression! to do with no-one liking my small offering.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 12:11 BST (UK)

OK,

So look at the birth for Thomas Junior, perhaps it was 1821 rather than 1820.... Martin Cash has Thomas at 18 in 1837 !!! and if Ann was his sister, and took after her mother in looks, I am sure Ann would look quite young, regardless of whether she was 15 or 25 or inbetween ;)

That would put both children as being fathered by Thomas Ransom... but they never married ... that impediment stopped them... and both Catharine and Thomas knew what it was even before the babies were born.... So what was it...

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 15 October 09 12:14 BST (UK)

JM.
The Royal Oak is still there, a private house now, but unchanged. Note that Green Ponds then is Kempton now. Thomas is probably buried under the Midland Highway.
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 15 October 09 12:17 BST (UK)

If Ann was truly "adopted" then she wasn't a child of Catharines, so the issue of two births in say 15 months is not an issue
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 12:18 BST (UK)

Hi Wiggy and all,

Your 1790 lass, she's in the equation BUT we just cannot find her arrival in either colony....

Umm, I think that's most likely Ann Cummings drowning at PD in Sept 1820 .... so I presume she had been found after absconding from John !

Umm, I cannot find any trace of Henry or Alice McNally or their daughter Catharine in IRELAND after that 1790 birth....

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Thursday 15 October 09 12:24 BST (UK)

I have record of Thomas's baptism - born 14th November - baptism 18th December 1820.

Maybe Henry and Alice came, with Catharine, on the first emigrant ship direct to VDL in 1816!! much laughter in camp! but they weren't listed. JOKE

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Thursday 15 October 09 12:27 BST (UK)

David,
Brings us right beck to your theory about Ann Cummings doesn't it. I wish Cathy would resurface with her Cummings history. And Leo - drop in for a chat will you please?

Think I will send her a PM and see what she can tell us!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 12:38 BST (UK)

Quote from: WiggyHobbes08 on Thursday 15 October 09 12:24 BST (UK)

I have record of Thomas's baptism - born 14th November - baptism 18th December 1820.
Maybe Henry and Alice came, with Catharine, on the first emigrant ship direct to VDL in 1816!! much laughter in camp! but they weren't listed.

Seriously, do we have any Henry or Alice in VDL records ..... I cannot find any, but I'm eye sore at present ;) I cannot find them to NSW either...

ALSO, if I'm not posting on here for next several days, you all have MOI permission to find Catharine.... I may need to attend to some 2009 activities for Moi family....

Cheers. JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Thursday 15 October 09 12:40 BST (UK)

Just been back to the old thread, - at post 311 Cathy says that her family records show that John Cummings had a wife and three children with him at PD in 1819 muster - that throws the cat among the pigeons - or there's been a mistake somewhere.

And there's the small matter of Phillip Cummings born 1818. I was going to write her a PM but decided she had told us what she knew on the subject.

No JM seriously - I don't think Henry and Alice came to VDl - nice if they had though!

I've gotta go folks - Have an early start and a long baby sit tomorrow. Don't leave me tooooo far behind will you?

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 15 October 09 12:54 BST (UK)

Umm, yep, we could still need to look at the Cummings children, definitely TWO families.

A Snip from a posting of David's on the old thread - for Cathy

CERTIFICATE OF DEATH OF ANN CUMMINGS Nee BOYNTON
Page No 3
Ann Cummins , Wife of Mr John Cummins of Paterson’s Plains was Drowned July the 27th, Aged 38 Years, was Buried at Launceston, July 29th 1825
By Me, John Youl, Chaplain

and

Quote from: Just Moi on Thursday 15 October 09 10:00 BST (UK)

I think this cutting would be of interest, its about Mrs Cummings and her children, at PD in Sept 1820, her daughter aged 11 and her son aged 3, saved, but not Mrs Cummings..

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/658366?searchTerm=%22cummings%22

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Friday 16 October 09 01:11 BST (UK)

Hi all,

been rereading the old thread: thinking of Ann RANSOM birth c1818/1819

Quote

1817-19?? Catharine is mother of Ann 'Ransom', fathered by Thomas Amos - no proof of this other than family history as per Leo Von Stieglitz

The Archives have supplied material on her at http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/
that lists her as

Quote

born BY 1817 [AO] indicates data added, and verified from other records, by the Archives Office

She is recorded as RANSOM not MCNALLY!!
No place of birth is given so was she even born in Tassie?
So has anyone looked for a baptismal record for Ann?
Where is she in the early censuses /musters?

a submitted IGI entry has her as born 1815 :o
another has her father as Thomas Ransom and her born in 1817 (submitters details on this one :))
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Search/frameset_search.asp

thinking thinking thinking

RObyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Friday 16 October 09 03:53 BST (UK)

Have we spotted this cutting previously,

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8644855?searchTerm=%22royal+oak%22

MARRIED-At New Norfolk, on Tuesday last, by Special License, by the Rev. H. R. Robinson, A.M., Frederick Steiglitz, Esq. to Mrs. Catherine McNally, of the Royal Oak Inn, Green Ponds.

C T of 22 Jan 1830.... Umm, notice the curtesy title for the bride ;) but I cannot find any online indexes for the granting of the Special License :'( Applications for S L to Marry in that era, but in NSW, needed the Governor's approval... could be some record somewhere in VDL archives.... In NSW, in 1820's I know that S L needed if either party had been convict, but also, S L needed if either party was widowed (even if came free or born in colony etc).... the application for S L would have lots of genie info, and perhaps the VDL governor or his Col Sec may have recorded the application in their daily log books ???

Umm, Special Licence ;) sometimes these were to make a hasty marriage to give a baby bundle legitimacy ... however, Catharine's marriage to Frederick does not seem to have been hastened in that way....

So, I am suggesting that Wiggy adds to the TO DO list, "need to know what was on the Special Licence Application for Catharine Christina McNally's marriage to Frederick ... application probably lodged Dec 1829, ceremony abt 19 Jan 1830, by Rev H R Robinson - is the genie detail on that Special Licence recorded in his records somewhere or where is it recorded"

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Friday 16 October 09 05:51 BST (UK)

JM,
re your Post 109 concerning drowning of Ann Cummings- sorry, typo in my original advice, she was of course drowned and buried July 27 and 29 in 1820, NOT 1825. It was the letter of Youl advising this date that was in 1825. Sorry, it was a long day at the Library and a 250km drive that day

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Friday 16 October 09 05:56 BST (UK)

Bit More, re reply #108 of this thread,

On the IGI extracted records, there's the marriage for Fredk. Lewis STEIGLITZ to Christina Mc NALLY on 19 Jan 1830 .... this extract would have been sourced from the Parish Records of the church at New Norfolk at which the couple were married

it would interesting to see a copy of the image of that registration....

;D ;D ;D as I am quite sure this is the same event and same couple in the same church on the same day as noted in the newspaper ....
Frederick Steiglitz Esq v Fredk. Lewis Steiglitz
Mrs Catherine McNally v Christina Mc Nally
same date, 19 Jan 1830.... same location, New Norfolk....

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Friday 16 October 09 06:01 BST (UK)

Hi David,

Re 1820 v 1825, Ann Cummings death..... and different months too, there's the one drowning in SEPT 1820, mother of two...

I still think there's two Mrs Ann Cummings in this picture ....

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Friday 16 October 09 06:34 BST (UK)

Anne Ransom

Married Francis Walter Stieglitz ( Brother of F L Stieglitz) Avoca District , Tasmania, 7 May 1840, declared age 22- so born between 7 May 1818- 6 May 1819, . (Tasmanian Pioneer Index)

Died 1 October 1892 at Launceston , as Ann Vonstieglitz,,age stated as 75, so born before 1 October 1818 (TPI)

On this basis, she was born between 7May 1818- 1October 1818 which would eliminate Thomas Amos as the father, either by Ann Cummings or Catharine McNally. As the Land Muster for October 1819 shows a wife in Thomas’ household but no child , and the wife is assumed to be Catherine McNally, then the child can be presumed not to be Catherines. Knopwoods Diary refers to Amos several times during his 1819 visit, but nothing earlier in 1817-1819, and as Amos was a solicitor,and Knopwood was a Magistrate on the bench almost daily, and daily hob nobbing with the Judge Amos would have been mentioned had he been to VDL previously- Bobby logged everybody!!

It could however still be a daughter of Ann Cummings who was asserted by husband John by Notice in HTG 25/9/1819 “ to have absented herself from me for some years past “. On July 27 1820 she was drowned at Port Dalrymple with her 11 year old daughter and 3 year old son ,Phillip, who must have been born before 27 July 1817 in Launceston. So if she scooted off to Hobart with post partum blues in latter part of 1817 with her companion Catherine NcNally, they were on the loose together during 1818 and the best part of 1819., at least 22 months.

Cummings Notice was in September 1819, and she drowned back in Launceston in July 1820, so she returned to Launceston. John Cummings travelled per Martha back to Port Dalrymple in early October 1819, some 2-3 weeeks before the land Muster showing a wife with Thomas Ransom. It must be assumed that both Ann and Catharine had been staying with Thomas Ransom- possibly in the neat little house he had added to the Joiners Arms in Murray Street which he later advertised for sale- Maybe he took them both on as barmaids! Ann was located ( Hobart was not very big) and returned to John Cummings and Catherine stayed with Thomas, leaving John NcNally with 8 year old John in Launceston. Cummings would have told John Mcnally where Catherine was, hence the record of John NcNally travelling Hobart to Launceston about this time.

. If Ann was a daughter of Ann Cummings conceived (but not by Amos)and born during the 22 month plus period in Hobart, her birth name was neither McNally nor Ransom. As she was married as Ransom and not as Stieglitz( her adopted stepfather after 1830)she was either called Ransom from the start rather than Cummings or Boynton ,or she followed her adopted brother’s lead (Thomas 1820) and took on the name of Ransom because he was the de facto father in whose house she had grown up
.
OK,-its just a construct, but it incorporates all the known fact to date- pick holes in it and lets see if it hangs together
DAVID

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Friday 16 October 09 06:44 BST (UK)

Wiggy,
I assume you know about this tree:

http://www.bellsite.id.au/gdbtree/index_M.html

has Catharine Christiana Mc Nally 1790-1857. No sources and nothing that we don't already haveand have ransom born 1780???

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Friday 16 October 09 07:11 BST (UK)

Hi David,

I hope you understand that I am picking .... in a constructive way.... I hope so, cause I think ;) .... on the 1819 Muster, showing a wife in Thomas' household, but no child.... etc.... just because child NOT declared to be there, ummm, really does not prove child was NOT there.... Umm, there's much ranting and raving in PJ about the accuracy of those Musters .. - the governor and admin staff; the magistrates .... the convicts .... the free settlers who had no one working on their tasks while they were being mustered.... and those who were free by pardon/servitude etc .... every year they had to find their papers again and present them.... those precious pieces of paper cost money to replace. As Catharine had an impediment affecting her eligibility to marry, then she certainly would not have been owning up to a baby daughter no more than several days after that birth....

It is quite possible that Thomas and Catharine 's baby (Ann/or Thomas/or others) had been born before that 1819 muster, but NOT YET "churched", .... and for some then until a child had a name it was not yet formally a person.... thus was not declared at the Muster....

Remember the Musters REQUIRED (but not all obeyed) every person (not just convicts) to attend and provide information about themselves and their circumstances.... If Catharine was unable to attend (with her accoucher) then Thomas Ransom would have no reason to say "Wife and Child", rather he would have said ""My wife is indisposed and "confined" with her "accoucher" OR words to that effect...

I have not got to the next sentence in that paragraph yet..... :o I'm trying not to be too picking.... I can think of lots of places a twelve month old child could be when a Muster was called.... Including, in her mother's arms and the collector of the info asked the question perhaps "Any children" and Catharine saying "no" thinking he meant "Any OTHER children...."

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Friday 16 October 09 07:31 BST (UK)

JM,

So a real effort to locate al original baptismal records for that year or so either side may need to be undertaken to perhaps find Ann's birth.

Strange that she is listed as Ransom on the TFl and Thomas as McNally.

Read a good rationale here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,326531.45.html page 4 posts 51 and 52. re accuracy of the records.

regards

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Friday 16 October 09 07:47 BST (UK)

Umm, also I seem to be finding that the 1818 VDL muster occurred within day or two of 1 October 1818, which at least provides reason (Catharine's poss confinement) for neither Catharine nor Ann Ransom's details to be on the 1818 muster... And I rather like my explanation re the 1819 muster not showing Ann.... but where was Ann on the 1820 muster.... ummm, Catharine may have been say 8 1/2 months ... perhaps Ann was with Catharine minding Catharine while all the others were being mustered ....

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/658622?searchTerm=%22general+muster%22 (gives a summary of where and when the VDL Governor supervised in Oct ~~1824~~ (edit to fix me own typo ! 1820, sorry !!!)

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Friday 16 October 09 08:20 BST (UK)

Hi Robyn,

Oh, ;) ;) I tend to rely on the originals of records ;D and so I thank you for that link and the rationale on that RChat thread... ... I wish I were based in Tas to be able to get to the original baptismal records.... to help WIGGY more, alas, I'm not....

Looking carefully at Original records ... umm.... often tis the best way to confirm or eliminate or mark as "possible, likely, probable" - but of course even those records can be factually incorrect.... (even when quite legible) for example, a lass may fib about her age when marrying or a grieving spouse may not hear a question properly and give his own mother's nee name instead of his mother-in-law's nee name when providing information for a death registration.... and of course so few people ever respond to a govt official with the answer "I don't know".....

But I think there's several days of quiet time needed to go through each and every record for baptisms in VDL 1816 - 1825, reading each one in full, carefully, before going onto the next entry.... rather than just consulting an online index - yes I know I use the online indexes regularly.... but for example, once I spot a likely RANSOM in a newspaper cutting.... I get to that "Primary Record" digitised on line.

So I use original records, and also primary records and also secondary records..firstly to try to match some of my own oral history tales with known facts... but I also realise that researching my own forebears using those techniques absorbs time, energy and funds... And I am sure you agree.... :D :D :D ::) ::) ::)

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Friday 16 October 09 09:35 BST (UK)

Hi Guys - can hardly think straight - have lost my keys and I'm blaming you lot - I came in last night using them and they haven't been seen since - so whichever of you has them - please hand them back NOW! I'm getting frantic.

I would just like to point out one little matter which I don't think (I don't think) anyone has taken into consideration with the Cummings scenario re Anne - there was a child registered to John and Ann Cummings - Phillip born 1818. I found him and Cathy commented on him - said they were surprised to find him but there he was. Now someone may have mentioned him today - frankly I haven't had time to fully take in ALL today's traffic - but just in case you haven't - think on these things.

I have searched as much as I possibly can with limited resources to find Anne - -I looked for her in Hobart under McNally and Ransom and for years either side of her alleged birth date - no luck - since finding out about Thomas Amos, I have written to ask about an Amos registration - no luck - I have looked in Sydney/PJ - no luck - under any name - and Trish looked too in Sydney. When we return to Tassie I will have another look using old church records if we can access them - I used library's church transcript records last time - will find out about actual church records this time - didn't know about them last time - thought what I was looking at was the real McCoy.

Will now go back slowly and see what else I can pick at!!! :D

Can I say again, thanks for all the help - I can't keep saying it - would get boring - but you know I am very grateful!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Friday 16 October 09 09:45 BST (UK)

Robyn,

re post 113 on this thread - yes I've seen that one before - Thomas is just plain wrong! Interesting that Catharine is looking right for what we've always believed and been told.

Yes I am keeping an open mind! :D You all amaze me with the things you find.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Friday 16 October 09 09:55 BST (UK)

Sorry folks - just reading and catching up -

David, re your last post, the children weren't drowned - only Ann drowned - you probably know this but the way it reads, sounds as if all of them died. Just making that clear. ;)

JM - re 108 - have we seen this - yes we have indeed! Glad you have now!! ;D Maybe I didn't share all my finds with the thread after all - just with my own records!! sorry folks! Have added you SL look up suggestion to the TO dO list!

I have a copy of the marriage registration - all written in one hand, and very little information given. How do you make that message run across the screen? - very clever! Will try for an original . . .

I think William Cummings, John's brother also married an Ann - they were mostly in NSW though I think.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Friday 16 October 09 10:43 BST (UK)

Wiggy,

Hope you ound your keys! I live my 83yo mother who is always losing things which then turn up in most unexpected places!!! :-*

Try in the door, the bathroom, under the bed, in the fridge etc under a pile of papers, usually no where near where one would normally look. :P

I think this puzzle is not just compulsive but has become an addiction.
Spent hours on google searches of variety of spellings and combinations and got no further forward. ???

Love to know about John and Catherine McNally in 1811 and where they came from!!! Where there any clues on the were the original baptismal paperwork could be found? (particularly after rereading the post on originals/trascriptions/copies etc) :-\

I tend to lean towards this line as the answer to her origins. So how do we chase it up?

Like JM wish I could be of more direct help. I live on the NSW Victorian border so away freom all sate libraries!!!

rest assured I will keep thinking and seeking .

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Friday 16 October 09 23:49 BST (UK)

TOTALLY OFF TOPIC but important!!
OK folks - you are all off the hook - I found them!! In the back pocket of my bag not the front - now why would I have put them there I wonder? doesn't matter - they are found - so I don't have to spend $400+ buying a new spare key!!

Wiggy :D :D :D

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 03:13 BST (UK)

Bit More,

NSW Musters ..... 1817

Catharine NEALE, sent from PJ to VDL after arriving on Capt Gregg's CANADA, to NSW Aug 1817, ex Dublin - trial Aug 1816, sentence 7 years....

I will try to find other images for the Musters using a commercial subscription site... .... noticing that on that site that MC and MAC surnames are sometimes filed slightly differently from today's alpha patterns... I will try under NALLY and not just MAC... also will try to find CUMMINGS and RANSOM etc, hope the subscription site has VDL musters imaged, and not just NSW...

So glad Wiggy found her keys.... but I wish there were keys available to unravel this mystery !!!

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 03:36 BST (UK)

Bit More

VDL 1830 Muster (yes, this is the year that Catharine McNally married Frederick)

NALLY, John Mc ex the MANILUS (2nd) was Assigned to a Mr Petchey ... umm, so this chap was not the IMPEDIMENT ;D
NALLY, Wm Mc ex the LADY EAST in 1825, assigned to T Anstey Esq .... umm impediment raised in the papers in 1825, but he's still alive in 1830 too, so NOT HIM either....
NALLEY, James ex MARY, assigned to Mr H Gray... so not James either

Not spotted any other likely "Nally" entries.

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 04:21 BST (UK)

Bit More,

a Catherine GAREN was meant to be in VDL ex the Kangaroo in 1816, (tried at Limerick 1813) but the MUSTER lists her as "Missing" ... I cannot determine the date of that muster, ~~seems to be 1817~~, but MISSING .... umm,

I will modify this post when I have figured out a) the date of that muster and/or b) who was Catherine GAREN...

MODIFY 1 to answer the "a)" question - its a list of FEMALES in VDL with some entries made as late as 1830's and it has a UK National Archives reference number.... HO/10/41, thus it is Crown Copyright.

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 17 October 09 04:26 BST (UK)

JM, definitely one which caused a twitch because two of her shipmates on Canada were Bridget and Winifred McNally from Mayo, and identity swap immediately came to mind, but Bridge and Winny are accounted for.

She was aka Hickey, convicted City of Dublin August 1816, one month after Mary Neale (sen) and Mary neale (jun), and all three transported per Canada 1817- I didn't follow the Marys, but Catherine was embarked on Elizabeth Henrietta 11th August 1817 to Hobart (Col Sec Index) The Convict Permission to Marry at the Archives shows her as marrying Edward Jones- but that was 1842 and she was per Westmoreland, so not her. She received 7 years, so would normally be f/s in 1823, and no convict permission to marry is shown marry between 1817-1824.

I can't find my notes on her, but I know I've considered her, but can't remember why I discarded her., so thanks for bring her to notice again- need to ferret and poke!

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 04:45 BST (UK)

Hi David,
1820 VDL Muster, at New Norfolk - have you considered this lass ;D

Cathe Wood ex the Marian (or Marion) tried at Lancester in 1817, got 7 years .... at New Norfolk in 1820, not assigned to anyone ;)

And so far, NO further sightings of Catherine GAREN .....

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 05:07 BST (UK)

Bit More,

I am hoping this will bring some joy you all.... its Just Moi Opinion that it shows the importance of getting to the proper records, as I doubt that the information this person has been given has much factual basis....

I have just read online on a submitted tree ::) ::) ..... where someone's forebears were transported FROM (I leave the spelling here too) Fort Dyrumple, Van Dymends Land in the South Seas TO The Derwent in Tasmania Australia.... in 1816 and the journey took .... only six to twelve months on a military ship under the command of "General Musters" ;D

Umm, I have sent them a gentle email indicating that it was my opinion that Van Dymends Land was probably the same Island as Tasmania, .... ;) and suggesting that they join RChat ... (I did not suggest that "General Musters" was not commanding any ship in the South Seas, but I did suggest they could check online for Van Diemens Land)

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 17 October 09 05:38 BST (UK)

JM, Think we can discount Catharine Wood at New Norfolk in 1820, as we have a wife to Thomas Ransom in 1819 and Catherine giving birth to Thomas as McNally in 1820. Will check out Catherine Garen after getting rid of the snake

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 05:50 BST (UK)

Hi David,

But should we discount Catharine Wood at New Norfolk in 1820 I thought Thomas Ransom had land in that vicinity by then .... we don't have "Wiggy's Catharine" (Ransom/McNally) on any 1820 General Muster as yet :D

Snakes .... yes well .... I'm sure Catherine Garen MISSING in VDL since 1817 won't mind waiting ... afterall she was Irish so no snakes for her please ....

I'm currently trawling through 2,006 index references online for sightings in VDL for Cath .... I've gone through 1,350 of them and only just now getting to Catherine with surnames starting with "M" .... ::) and I'm only posting the "possible" lasses....

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 06:16 BST (UK)

Love the info in Post 128 JM! No wonder we have trouble.

Just been out to lunch - it is dangerous to eat out - every time I do you all go bananas on the thread!

how are you going Patrick!

Wiggy With nothing helpful to add! Interesting that the lists are done under - Surname, Christian/forename Mc .

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 06:36 BST (UK)

Trawled all 2006 index references, only posted ones on RChat that seem to have some VDL link within the time frame, and

NO sighting of that MISSING Catherine Garen....

Sorry.... but eye-sore at present...

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 17 October 09 06:45 BST (UK)

I'm with Jm on this

No Catherine MCNally around in 1820 and Ransom was in the vicinity where Catharine Wood was recorded.

When is the first reference eto them being a couple???

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 17 October 09 07:08 BST (UK)

I think Catherine Garen may have been Catherine Goran /Geran who was born in 1787, and arrived VDL in 1814 per Kangaroo, on the notorious round trip under Lieutenant Jeffreys, the same voyage that brought Thomas Ransom to Hobart, which would be a nice coincidence, but she married William Newman on the 12th June 1815, and in the 1819 Muister William Newman is supporting himself, a wife, 2 children and a Government servant off stores, as well as 30 sheep.
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 17 October 09 07:14 BST (UK)

Hi all

Dave: you are most probably correct which leaves us with Ctharine Wood to chase up.

round and round and round

we go again

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 17 October 09 07:16 BST (UK)

Robyn,
apart from the assumption that the wife of Thomas Ransom in the October 1819 muster was Catherine, or else he was a serial septugenarian bigamist, and the reference by Karl Von Stieglitz to Matthew Brady being assigned to Mr and Mrs Ransom in mid-late 1820, there nis no record of Thomas and Catherine as a couple, but in 1820 Thomas only had land in Hobart ( Murray Street) and didn't get his land at Green Ponds until well after 1820 and at Killymoon even later. Nevertheless, I suppose we don't write off catherine Woods without evidence

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 17 October 09 07:24 BST (UK)

I wouldn't say "probably", I think on the evidence it may rate as "most likely", as otherwise we have to assume Willam Newman dropped dead after the muster, Thomas Ransom kicked out the woman he claimed as his wife in the same muster, and moved in the widow Newman with her two children, and got her to change her name ,which was previously Geren, Garen or Goran, to McNally . A possibility I suppose, one of the children could be Ann, and the other one could have died, before being replaced with Thomas born in 1820 . Definitely a scenario to be considered.
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 07:26 BST (UK)

Umm,

Sighting of Catharine McNally but known as Mrs Ransom ... brief mention of her on this website
Its about The Bushranger-Matthew Brady, hanged May 4, 1826, and ladies wept and flowers were thrown
.....Matthew Brady was 21 when transported from England for forgery. Brady was assigned as a servant to Mrs. Ransom of the Crossmarsh Inn, who spoke of him being sober and industrious. Other ladies of the district also had high opinions of young Matthew, in which the word 'industrious' has other connotations. The truth is that Matty was in fact a gentleman of sorts, who stuck to his code of honour and decency. A contemporary described him as 'a leader of men, and a conqueror of women'.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/australian_history_and_culture/116456

cheers,

NOTING he was assigned to Mrs Ransom..... now WHERE to find the assignment records, cause hopefully that will help find Mrs Ransom !!!

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 07:28 BST (UK)

Well I don't know about that - but Thomas and Catharine were running a couple of Inns in Hobart at the time - They didn't move out to Cross Marshes until 1825 - and she was busy having Thomas Jnr. Thomas Snr did have land - but not at New Norfolk - at Green Ponds/Kempton/Cross Marshes.

For what it's worth (not much I admit) I think we ditch Catharine Wood at New Norfolk. Call in the umpire!

Wiggy :D the vibes are not vibrating on that one at all, at all.

Edit - you've all moved on while I was looking things up. I'm referring to Catharine Wood - too slow by half that's me!

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 07:38 BST (UK)

Umm,

but the ladies wept and flowers were thrown ...

Seriously, VDL 1820 Muster for Brady, Matthew - he was assigned to a Mr Riley at that time.

Umm, also Re Thomas Ransom's land
:) On list of persons who have had lands measured in Van Diemen's Land but have not received their grants (Reel 6048; 4/1742 p.296)
and this one 1823 On list of persons owing quit rents in Van Diemen's Land; for land in the District of Green Ponds (Fiche 3270; X19 p.21)

Umm, haven't got my hardcopy print outs with me at the moment, but ...

Cheers, Umm, Call in the Umpire ... No, throw the flowers instead...

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 07:42 BST (UK)

Well, actually, Thomas had some land at Green ponds by 1820 - he was advertising a grass farm for lease in 1821. I think he actually got it earlier - just been reading about it in one of my snippets. I still don't think that had anything to do with the woman living out there though.

(There is also a reference in the Sol Sec's Index to Thomas having stock being received by gov't from Port Dalrymple- in 15 Feb 1813 - before he was even on the island - just to confuse things!)

I'm not really helping am I?? :D - will sit out and watch all you clues falling onto the thread.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 17 October 09 07:42 BST (UK)

Dave:

Interesting theory re Geran/Ransom in 1820.

http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?detail=1&type=P&id=231958 credits Wiliam Newman and Catharine Geran
with Margaret b 1815, Jane 1817 and Mary Ann 1820. Mary Ann married William Wiggins in 1844.

This does rule the theory out. :( >:( :'(

So Wiggy who do we still have in the frame?

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 07:44 BST (UK)

VDL muster 1826,

Matthew Brady (as Bready) listed as ABSCONDED 7 June 1824... so he was assigned to Mrs Ransom at Cross Marshes sometime after 1820 Muster and before 7 June 1824 ;)

Umm, at the rate we are getting on with this, we could umm, FIND HER soon ;)

and so the ladies can weep as the gents throw flowers...
JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 07:47 BST (UK)

Umm Wiggy,

you are NOT permitted to just sit and watch.... ;D there's newspapers to check .... even if you don't think Catherine Wood would be her.... ::) ::) ::)

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 17 October 09 07:50 BST (UK)

Mrs Ransom of the Cross Marsh's Inn, Cross Marsh being the district and Green Ponds being the locality, now Kempton, the Inn being the Royal Oak. The Brady bit was written after his execution in 1826 , by which time Thomas and Catharine had moved from Hobart to Green Ponds, so in 1826 she was referred to in that context- a common problem when writing local history is to reference an event to a modern locality which didn't exist at the time of the event.

Brady arrived, from memory about August or so 1820- because some 20 years ago I was bitterly disappointed about that- had he arrived 6 months earlier, I could have fitted him up as Thomas's father! I don't thnk this particular hare will run in our dirction- I was almost aworld expert on Brady at the time trying to do just that, get a reference to Catherine through him-couldn't, but others may be able to. The connection was maintained when matthew nailed his 20gallons of rum reward for Arthur on the door of the Royal oak!

David

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 07:50 BST (UK)

Robyn - quite frankly ;D I have absolutely no idea!!

I'm sitting here laughing so hard, because I'm still in the starting blocks and I can hardly see you all in the distance!!
I know what I believe - but it doesn't help anyone!!

Wiggy :D :'( :D

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 17 October 09 07:55 BST (UK)

Stop! Mathew Brady was never assigned to Mr and Mrs Ransom at Cross Marsh or Green Ponds! David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 08:00 BST (UK)

No 'cos they didn't go there until 1825 - I know that bit!

Wiggy

and a concerted rendition of Happy birthday to me would be in order from you lot!!

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 08:04 BST (UK)

Umm,

There's Mrs Ransom donating funds to the Methodists in 1823.... Wiggy has that on the first post of this thread ;D ...

We've been lapped and doesn't realise it.... that's why Wiggy's currently of the view that she's behind us ;D ;D ::) ::)

EDIT Here's that
3rd definite record - Mrs Ransom donating to the Wesleyan mission 1823.
JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 08:10 BST (UK)

What NEVER, well hardly ever (G & S umm did they write the Happy Birthday song)

Sorry, David, you were saying that Matthew Brady was never assigned to Mrs Ransom.... umm, I'm listening..

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 08:12 BST (UK)

I tried to go and look up papers! - but by the time I returned you'd all gone round the next corner - so I'm not doing that again until you all stop!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 08:16 BST (UK)

David was saying (I think) and I back him to the hilt on this (I think) - Brady wasn't assigned to the Ransom's at Green Ponds - because they weren't living there until 1825. that's right isn't it David???

I think!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 08:20 BST (UK)

I've stopped.... and I'm listening...

Umm, and I can find Thomas in 1819 Muster, but no mention of any wife on the image I am looking at...

Cheers,

JM

MODIFY TO NOTE IT WAS 1820 MUSTER

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Cathy48 on Saturday 17 October 09 08:22 BST (UK)

Hi,

have still been following all the posts here, it has become a bit addictive, especially when the odd reference to the Cummings family gets thrown in, but have become interested in your Catherine as well!

I can confirm that Captain John's brother William also married an Ann who died in 1811. Also the 1819 muster of Land Holders at Port Dalrymple shows that John Cummings had 200 acres and had a wife and three children. It lists the children as George aged 14, James aged 12 and Ellen aged 10.
No mention of Phillip who was born in 1818- but I have Phillip's marriage certificate in which he names John Cummings and Ann Boyton as his parents.

I am still waiting on my distant cousin who has a lot of information about the Cummings family in Australia from 1800 onwards, as soon as I hear I will post anything that may help.

Found a newspaper article in the Sydney Gazette 1817 stating that John Cummings, by an early opportunity, was returning to VDL with Henry Rio his servant.

Something I did find confusing was another newspaper item in 1820 about Ann Cummings just after her death:

George Town 10th August, 1820 public notice –
Whereas Lieutenant SKELTON of His majesty’s 46th Regiment, did by his Power of Attorney, and duly executed, bearing Date the 29th Day of April, 1818, nominate and appoint Mrs. Ann Cummings his true and lawful Attorney, for him and in his Name and in his Behalf, and at the same time put into her charge 800 Head of Sheep, and a Number of Horned Cattle, the Property of the said Lieutenant Skelton.

Whereas said Power of Attorney contained a clause authorizing and empowering said Ann Cummings to nominate, constitute and appoint any Person she might think proper to act for him, the said Lieut. Skelton, in the Care and Management of said 800 Sheep and said Horned Cattle

Whereas in Pursuance and by Virtue of said Clause, the said Ann Cumming did, under her Hand and Seal, bearing Date the 5th of April, 1819, nominate constitute, and appoint me, JACOB MOUNTGARRETT, of Port Dalrymple aforesaid, Surgeon, a just and lawful Attorney, in the premises, for and on Behalf of the said Lieut. Skelton, concerning 800 Head of Sheep and said Horned Cattle.

And whereas the said Ann Cummings suddenly met her Death, without revoking said last mentioned Power of Attorney.

Now this is to caution the Public in general against bargaining dealing, or bartering for the Whole or any Part of said 800 Head of Sheep or Horned Cattle, with any Person or Persons whatever, as the same are the sole and bona-fide Property of the said Lieut. Skelton; and any Person or Persons found doing so, after this Notice, will be prosecuted as the Law directs JACOB MOUNTGARRETT.

Agent for the said

Lieutenant SKILTON

Not sure how this fits in with any separation from her husband?

Cathy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 17 October 09 08:27 BST (UK)

Cathy

WOW :-* Well now we think we might know who she ran away with!!

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 08:27 BST (UK)

Hi Cathy,

Umm, I'm still trying to figure out which of the TWO Mrs Cummings (both named Ann) who died in Tasmania in 1820 was the wife of the other Mr John Cummings in Tasmania. One had three children, one had two children.... One was estranged from her husband...

Remembering that a Mr John Cummings and family etc left Sydney NSW for Tasmania with contracted employees, with surname McNally....in (from memory only) 1817 ;D

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 08:28 BST (UK)

Yes we found that one too Cathy - It is a bit of a mystery isn't it? Can't shed any light on it - the others may be able to do so though.

I got all excited when you told us about Philip being a bit questionable - I.E. you had doubts - I had wonderful thoughts that Philip may in fact have been Ann (??!)- but then Philip gets a guernsey later - so that didn't hold water. Pity - could have solved many problems!

In 1816 JM

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 08:33 BST (UK)

Umm,

VDL 1820 General Muster

There's a Thomas Ransom (ALONE, mind you) sighted by MOI on an image of that muster on Ances*** ...... this Thomas was tried in London, 1781.... transported on Scarboro under Capt Marshall, and as FREE by PARDON, and a settler... (not a publican, a S E T T L E R ....)

;D

not sighted her....

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 08:44 BST (UK)

And,

the newspapers online is doing a major upgrade - perhaps loading up MORE newspapers for Wiggy and MOI to read...
Due to a major upgrade, all the Library's computer systems, including reading room computers will be unavailable from 5pm Sat 17 October to 6am Sun 18 October.

But back to Bridget and Winifred MCNALLY on the CANADA - the 1817 trip Bridget was 47 and Winfred was 40 .... umm bit too old to be swapping identities with Catharine MCNALLY....

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Cathy48 on Saturday 17 October 09 08:49 BST (UK)

There are 2 Ann Cummings both married to John Cummings and both died in 1820? I only know that the article I just posted was the Ann married to Captain Cummings as it gives her date of death.....

As to which couple employed the McNally's?

I haven't ever come across a second Ann Cummings with 2 children, though this Ann only had 2 of her children with her when she drowned, but had 4 in total.

Cathy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 08:51 BST (UK)

John Cummings Snr's wife was Elizabeth - so the Ann who died in 1820 is Joh cummings Jnr's wife - we think - that's right isn't it Cathy? J C Snr lived at Hobart end of the island and died in hospital in 1825. Haven't sighted his wife - Cathy may know about her. Right?? I shouldn't be telling your family Cathy - you will have it more accurately than I do. Just trying to un-confuse JM! I've only seen one Ann Cummings dying in 1820 - where is the second one JM?

I gave Winifred and Briget a very thorough going over when last in the Library - they are non starters!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Cathy48 on Saturday 17 October 09 08:55 BST (UK)

Yes Ann who died (By drowning) July 1820 is Capt John Jnr's wife. John Snr died in Hobart 1825.

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 08:57 BST (UK)

Umm,

One at PJ in Sept 1820, - in the newspapers (which are off line) but see my post number 86 or there abouts... and theres the one that David notes with a death certificate reference for July 1820.

You cannot be the subject of a death certificate issued in July 1820 for a burial on 19 July 1820, and yet get drowned in September 1820.... Can you ??? ::)

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 09:01 BST (UK)

Think it is the same one JM - some one got their dates confused I reckon. In this thread anything is possible - like we are going to run out of room again if this pace keeps up!! ;)

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 09:05 BST (UK)

OH - sorry Port Jackson - didn't see that one - beg your pardon JM - do tell more. William's wife died in 1810/11 so not her! But there was a letter written about another - but it was about Ann in PD. There was some confusion in camp and there was a letter sorting it out - it is here on the thread somewhere.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 09:08 BST (UK)

Nope, the article had her age, and the children's details too.... I'm sure it was September 1820, and the younger child was a boy aged 3.... older child a girl, perhaps named Mary Ellen, aged 11.

The papers will be back online tomorrow evening...

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 17 October 09 09:13 BST (UK)

Well all

Just to confuse you the Tassie site has Phillip William Cummings b 1818 as the son of John Cummings and Elizabeth, not stated! a baptismal record. Also has John and Elizabeth as not in a relationship until 1832 :o an archives record.

Very confusing surely phillip could not be the son of John Cummings senior and his wife? :-\ but brought upby his older brother and his wife?

Interesting is that they have they children of John and Ann Boynton all b orn 1810 ::)

regards
Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 09:14 BST (UK)

Here's my copy paste for that September 1820 drowning...

I think this cutting would be of interest, its about Mrs Cummings and her children, at PD in Sept 1820, her daughter aged 11 and her son aged 3, saved, but not Mrs Cummings..

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/658366?searchTerm=%22cummings%22

So that lady was at Port D, not at PJ, so a Mrs Cummings drowned in September 1820 at PD and thus has to be a different Mrs Cummings from the one on Cathy's line.

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Cathy48 on Saturday 17 October 09 09:16 BST (UK)

Hi,

I think they are the same person. Phillip would have been the 3 year old boy and Mary Ann Ellinor (Ellen) was 11. They were both with Ann in the cart when it toppled into the South Esk river.

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 09:17 BST (UK)

And the letter referring to it - post 109 was written several years later - hence the dates mix up! I think!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 09:20 BST (UK)

But

I still don't know that Mrs Ransom (ie Catharine McNally) was NOT the lady in the article about Matthew Brady... after all, as I recall, Thomas Ransom was advertising in Hobart papers that at his hotel in Murray Street he had good quality butter for sale and would have supplies for six months... umm, was that a dairy farm he had in 1820.... and I recall noticing he had "country licence" against at least one of those hotel licences in around 1822 ....

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Cathy48 on Saturday 17 October 09 09:22 BST (UK)

Ann Cummings (nee Boyton) drowned at Port Dalrymple.

I think I can also clear up the dates on the Tassie site... They refer to an event and tie it in with the family details at the time. The three older Cummings children were all Baptised in 1810 by the Rev Knopwood, so all have that date as the children of Cpt John And Ann Cummings (nee Boyton).

Phillip was christened in 1832, and by that time I think Captain John had remarried an Elizabeth.

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 09:23 BST (UK)

Robyn, that would really help things - but not John Snr - He died at 82 in 1825 - Having said that, he was almost exactly contemporary with Thomas who fathered a child in 1820! Cathy has Philip as son of Ann and John. There's a mistake somewhere!!

the archives record of the 1832 relationship might be John Jnr's son mightn't it Cathy?

Wiggy

Edit - thanks Cathy - I type too slowly - fall behind!

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 09:23 BST (UK)

Umm, that letter...

The Chaplain (Youll) certifies the date of burial as 17 19* July 1820.... he would have needed to consult his own parish register to confirm that date... Umm.... but the rest of the details match up for Cathy's line ;D

JM * fixed

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 09:32 BST (UK)

Early night is calling for me - chat on - it is hectic getting older!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 11:41 BST (UK)

Re Catherine WOOD
(on the VDL General Muster, at New Norfolk) and my question of IF SHE WERE CATHARINE MCNALLY....

The NSW Col Sec index shows that a Catherine Wood arrived PJ on the Maria and was trans-shipped onto the Eliza Henrietta for PD on 26 Sept 1818....

And the TAO seem to have her as Catherine WOODS arriving 11 Oct 1818....

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 17 October 09 11:47 BST (UK)

Re JM post 171- yes the Brady reference WAS to Catherine McNally , known as Mrs Ransom, but she was NOT the Mrs Ransom of the Royal Oak when Brady was assigned to them in mid 1820- the article was written AFTER his execution in 1826 by which time she WAS Mrs Ramsom of Green Ponds/Cross Marsh/Royal Oak- the same person but her identification in 1826 at Cross Marsh was attached to her activity in 1820 at Hobart. David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 11:57 BST (UK)

Bit More on Catherine Wood

VDL 1821 General Muster :
Catherine Wood, ex Maria 1818 was at Female Factory.... tried at Manchester July 1817, sentence 7 years

NSW 1818 General Muster
Cathne Wood, ex Maria Sept 1818, tried at Manchester July 1817, sentence 7 years , a servant still in NSW (of course, only arrived days before the muster!)

VDL 1823 General Muster
Catharine Wood (yes with an "A") ex Maria 1818 tried at Manchester July 1817, sentence 7 years, a servant to W Addy at George Town

More to come on this lass
JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 12:12 BST (UK)

Bit More,

From the ship's list for the Maria (Maria 1, being its first voyage to NSW with convicts)....

Catherine Woods tried on 22 July 1817, at Manchester, (also 3 others tried same day and place, and on that voyage of the Maria and all four sentenced to 7 years)

I have not found Catherine Woods TAO image, although I have found page 258 of CON40/1/9
but on the Female Factory list I notice she was aged 20 and her police number was 38/55
WOODS, Catherine Maria I / Elizabeth Henrietta (1) 38 / 55 20

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 12:14 BST (UK)

Hi David,

Hope the info I've just posted leads to another elimination of the possibles for Catharine McNally... and thanks for sorting the Mrs Ransom and the bushranger...

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 12:25 BST (UK)

Bit More,

One of the lasses transported with this Catherine Woods was an Elizabeth Almond... who was also tried at same place, same day etc as this Catherine.

On the NAA website, A2A, there's both these lasses listed together as part of one prosecution in 1817... and a note that those documents (the bill for the cost of the prosecutions) are held at the Lancashire Records Office...

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 17 October 09 12:34 BST (UK)

Bit More,

Catharine Woods and Elizabeth Almond both sentenced to 7 years for Larcency.... ( umm, on the Assizes records, its for Catharine with an A in the "right" spot !)

:D :D :D

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 17 October 09 13:17 BST (UK)

I'm puzzled, JM. If Catharine Woods is in George Town in 1823, how relevant is she to CatharineMcNally/Mrs Ransom in Hobart in 1820 and donating to the Wesleyans there in 1823? Haven't you proved she is not our girl? But congratulations on the research anyway.David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 17 October 09 20:52 BST (UK)

Hi y'all,

If you do not see me around for a few days it is because I have taken time out from the frantic pace of the last couple of days! - - Off to look up ALL the references you've mentioned!
"Let us grasp the situation,
Solve the complicated plot -
Quiet, calm deliberation
Disentangles every knot!" (Thanks G&S) It hasn't so far but - 'try try try again' (Robert the Bruce!)

You have thrown so much into the paddock - I'm going off to ruminate on these things. I can't ruminate while you are all throwing stuff at me - If you solve the case I will surely know!

Wiggy :D

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 17 October 09 22:46 BST (UK)

1 Perceptive point Robyn, suggesting Ann Cummings (Boynton) was in a relationship with Lieutenant JohnSkelton- now I have to open a Skelton file! Not much in it yes, apart from interesting historical item about the Three Bees explosion in Sydney harbour! and his sheep were duffed per newspaper article 11/7/1818. In this context , be aware that it seems to have been Ann (per HRA) who was the business brain and manager in the Cummings household, so ,Robyn, your comment excites the curiosity, particularly as Skelton does not sem to exist in Musters, etc, and seems tohave been a transient, despite owning sheep!, but it may simply have been a business arrangement to earn the Cummings household some income

2 Am following up on the 1816 trip by John Cummings and John McNally and wife to VDL on Brothers in 1816, to see whether any more info about the passengers on board that trip, in hope that there may be reference to christain name of McNally's wife, and to follow up on other passengers who may have been firends of Cummings at PD

3 Cathy 48- thank you for hanging in with us- I will post some futher references I have found on your family(?) which may be of interest if you don't already have them, and if they ARE your family

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 17 October 09 22:49 BST (UK)

Cathy 48

Historical Records of Australia Maquarie to G A Gordon pg 714
14December 1811 Land grant and Live stock for J Cummings
“You are to direct the Acting Deputy Surveyor to locate 200 acres of land in some eligible situation at Port Dalrymple to Mr John Cummings ( late capt in the 102nd regiment but now permitted by me, on his resignation,to become a settler on this island) in lieu of 200 acres of land some time located to him at the Derwent, but which he now relinquishes and reverts back to the Crown…..’
It goes on to detail arrangements for swopping two cows and any increase therefrom which “he received some time ago at the Derwent” by the same from the Government herd at Port Dalrymple, plus another 2 cows and 80 ‘Ew sheep” subject to a bond for repayment in 2 years.

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 17 October 09 23:13 BST (UK)

For Cathy 48- some Cummings grains

1 http://www.worcestershireregiment.com/wr.php?main=inc/h_29th_Foot_1807to1813

A RECORD OF THE 29th FOOT by Colonel Charles Leslie, K. H. (1807 to 1813)

2 Historic Records Australia 19 Oct 1814- Cummings family robbed

I can’t find the marriage of William Cummings and Ann Oates and baptism of James in Isle Of Man- can you help?

I presume that you have consulted the Historic records of Australia (HRA) and of NSW; if not then check the indexes in the early Series volumes and you will find numerous Cummings references, mostly William but several John.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 18 October 09 01:00 BST (UK)

Hi

Do we know what regement Lieutenant John Skelton/Skilton was in?

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 01:32 BST (UK)

Umm,

Two thoughts....

Re Catharine Woods - not sure why she could NOT be in Hobart during those times, as I understood that when General Musters were called that the inhabitants (especially those under convictions) were required to attend with their Masters, thus perhaps Catharine Woods went to the Muster where her Master was reporting at... ??? ... We have NO Muster with Catharine McNally named on it... :-\ and so I think Catharine Woods ought to be part of this picture still.... Surely Thomas Ransom would have visited his rural land grants, perchance ....
Also, if Catharine was 20 (could be a transcript error for 29) in 1817, then she would be in the picture for motherhood of Ann and Thomas....

Re John Skelton/Skilton .... That's a good question Robyn... I think the 48th arrived 1817 and 1821, and were in NSW and VDL, but I think this chap would have arrived perhaps earlier ???

Cheers All,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Sunday 18 October 09 01:34 BST (UK)

Robyn,Skelton was an Ensign in the 46th Regiment in 1814
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 01:48 BST (UK)

Bit More, on the Ensign Skelton...

abt 26 January 1815, he was taking an assigned servant to VDL.... Umm, no name or gender noted for that servant...

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 01:57 BST (UK)

Bit More,

Thomas Davey, Lieut Governor VDL 26 Jan 1815 notes permission given for Ensign Skelton 46th to take his assigned servant, Arthur Doogan to VDL...

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 02:14 BST (UK)

Bit More,

Please bear with me, tis about Catharine Woods... on the Maria, 1817....

Umm, the text The Women of Botany Bay, by Portia Robinson - umm, I cannot find her mentioned in that text ... although I can find Elizabeth Almond there (convicted with Catharine Woods in Manchester).... Elizabeth was in Newcastle NSW in 1821...

So, another "disappearing" Catharine ::)

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 02:29 BST (UK)

Bit More, - thinking about those prying eyes and the impediment for Catharine McNally's inability to marry Thomas Ransom ....

Re the master of the Maria 1817 .... a Henry WILLIAMS.. and noting that a Henry Williams was Acting Deputy Surveyor at Norfolk Island back in 1806, when Thomas Ransom was also at Norfolk Island and was the Master Carpenter there.... most likely Thomas would have known the Henry Williams A.D. Surveyor at Norfolk Island.... but I don't yet know if the Master of the Maria in 1817 (with Catharine Woods as a convict) was the same Henry Williams ??? ::)

Quote from: WiggyHobbes08 on Saturday 17 October 09 20:52 BST (UK)

"Let us grasp the situation, Solve the complicated plot - Quiet, calm deliberation Disentangles every knot!" (Thanks G&S) It hasn't so far but - 'try try try again' (Robert the Bruce!)

Cheers,

JM .

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 18 October 09 02:39 BST (UK)

well all,

thinking about the spelling of Catharaine: have we searched for Catharine/ Catherine as KATHARINE which is the way it is indexed in the Victorian Pioneer Index.

Can't find a Catharine in there yet, lots of Katharine and a few Katherine, and thousands of Catherine. also lots and lots of Kate but only 11 CATE.

regards

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 02:43 BST (UK)

Umm, I had even looked for "Kitty" ;D

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 18 October 09 03:09 BST (UK)

Jm,
I know we had lok at all forms of McNAlly.
Interesting that even the lega announcements in the papers on the NLA addressed wives thus:

Quote

deceased, should not be granted to William Brown, the Hus- band of Elizabeth Catharine Foss,...

Well ahead of thee times!!! So Catharine Christiana McNally who are you?? spinster, married woman, widow. ???

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 03:41 BST (UK)

She's there somewhere.... ;)

1820 VDL General Musters regulations included the following for Females :

At all these Musters the Free Women, as well those who come Free to this Colony, as those who are Free by Absolute or Conditional Pardon and by Expiration of Sentence are to give in the Names and Ages of their Children... All Female Prisoners are also to give in the Names and Ages of their Children

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/658297?searchTerm=%22general+muster%22

If I had been Catharine I would have attended... I would have obeyed the "positive orders" of the Governor !!!

JM ;D

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 03:48 BST (UK)

Bit More,

1820, Thomas Ransom's farm was operational at Green Ponds by July 1820, as per his and his neighbour's advertisements re tresspassers

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/658046?searchTerm=%22ransom%22

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 04:27 BST (UK)

Found something very interesting it links T R to C N and to Mrs Ransom...

Straying Cattle at Cross Marsh (A Bent) .... 18 & 25 December 1829

One large brown Steer, branded C.N. belonging to Mrs Ransom

One dark brown cow and calf branded T R belonging to Mrs Ransom

Catharine NALLY, Mc = C.N.

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8644760?searchTerm=%22mrs+ransom%22

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 18 October 09 04:30 BST (UK)

Hi all
rereading and thinking:

The only evidence we have placing Catharine McNally in VDL before 1820 is the supposed birth of Ann Ransom ther c 1815-1819. All agree?

The first hard evidence is the birth of Thomas MCNally in 1820 All agree?

There has been discussion on the lines that Ann is in fact an adopted daughter of Catharine. all agree?

So she should be on the 1820 muster as should Thomas. all agree?

There is the theory we had that she is one of the Catharines/ Catherines/Katharines on the muster which is if our research is correct this most unlikely. all agree

That is unless she arrived AFTER the muster in October or unless she was absent from VDL at the time on board a vessel at sea or back in PJ,

comments please

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 04:40 BST (UK)

I agree, and note that for the 1820 General Muster she may well have been around 8 1/2 months along with Thomas Junior ::)

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 04:54 BST (UK)

So,

Catharine N

umm 1820 Catherine NEAL ex Canada... tried at Dublin in 1816, 7 years
BUT 1823 Catharine NEALE ex Canada was noted as an alias, Heskey

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 18 October 09 05:11 BST (UK)

well,

Re Catharine wife of John MC Nally:

Quote

Catharine is presumed to have left John in about 1818. He seems to disappear from VDL, but John Jnr shows up in Sydney 1822 muster with another woman Ann Clemens. (Has John gone off sealing again - he is listed somewhere as seaman.)

Catharine may well have gone sealing/whaling tor visiitng Hobart leaving the child behind in 1818 ? Then John Junior in PJ with Ann Clemmens in 1822 could she (Ann) have been running away with John McNally and taken the child and vanished from Hobart. When Catharine returned they were both gone.>:(

Certainly if she had been around as John McNally's wife and he had run off with Ann Clemmens she could well be described as not being able to do anything about her impediment.

just thinking mind you.

RObyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 05:17 BST (UK)

Hi all,

Robyn's scenerio that shows a possible, perhaps a likely, impediment for Catharine Nally, Mc....

I have some family matters to attend to, so could be several days before I'm back helping with this search....

I give you ALL my permission ;D ;D ;D to find Catharine for Wiggy before I'm back... :P

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Sunday 18 October 09 05:58 BST (UK)

Robyn, love the cow find!

1 If we assume that Thomas and Catherine are the "item" that the 1825 newspaper hypocritical ferret article describes, and that Thomas at his age is hardly likely to be being a de facto bigamist, and given Karl Von Stiegltz identification of Mr and Mrs Ransom as the household to which Brady was assigned in mid 1820, I think it is safe to assume that Catherine is the "wife" of Thomas Ransom listed in the October 1819 Land and Stock Muster in Hobart. So she was there in October 1819, but does not appear as McNally in the 1818 Muster of Free women in Hobart. Hobart was a very small town and population in 1818- they all knew each other- she couldn't have been there for long under a different name and changed it toMcNally when she moved in with Thomas Ransom-she was new to Hobart under the name McNally and registered young Thomas as McNally in 1820, but then gradually morphed ntoand known as Mrs Ransom, until she reappears as McNally in Thomas Will in 1829, and subsequently marries Stieglitz as Mcnally in 1830. She was either born McNally or married or cohabited with a McNally

2 It is possible that Skelton and John Cummings knew each other before VDL times. Cummings served in 8th West India Regiment in Dominica concurrently with Skeltons Regiment the 46th Regiment of foot, the South Devonshires. Both regiments were involved in supressing the same rebellion and mutiny together- a small military world. Skelton seems an unimportant cog, and he enters left and dissappears right very quickly. I don't get the feel that he is a significant factor in Ann Cummings life- he is only referred to in Launceston terms,and Ann could not have absconded in Launceston. Also Ann need not have absconded for love interest, even if she might have found it in Hobart,but simply because she had gone off John Cummings.
I got thrown by the suggestion Ann Cummings absconded with John Mcnally! Now that demands a rethink- leaves Mrs McNally (catherine) back in Launceston with Capt Cummings, looking for their other halves together,Catherine looking after the kids,John Cummings goes toHobart,finds the runaways, gets Ann to return, John Mcnally returns too but Catherine walks out, goes to Hobart and meets up with Thomas Ransom-the last bit doesn't ring true.

Ever onwards- David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Cathy48 on Sunday 18 October 09 07:48 BST (UK)

To answer David's questions: I don't have a marriage date for William Cummings and Ann Oates. Just that she was born about 1760 in the Isle of Mann and that their son James John was christened there in 1788. William and Ann arrived in Sydney on the ship "Queen" in 1791, but there is no record of their child on board.

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 18 October 09 08:33 BST (UK)

Well,

Who ever suggested that McNally returned? Cummings wouldn't have wanted him back if he had absconded with Ann, so may be he just took off. Catharine would not want to stay with Ann if she was the woman who ran off with her husband either and prhaps took refuge with Ransom.

We know very little about McNally or when he died. perhaps 1829?

That would be to good to be true perhaps he had been gone for 7 years by then and Catharine felt that that removed the impediment to a marriage?

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Cathy48 on Sunday 18 October 09 09:08 BST (UK)

David,

Thanks also for the Cummings info, everything helps in trying to piece together the story. :)

Cathy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 09:13 BST (UK)

Umm,

Having just been driven several hundred kms, I had time to think .... so Guess who I was thinking about... (have several hundred kms more tomorrow, but I will be the driver, so won't be thinking of Catharine Nally, Mc...)

Umm, in NSW in Feb 1829 a Patrick M-Nally was dismissed (Police Constable) for improper conduct... http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2191874?searchTerm=%22nally%22

Obviously I haven't yet figured out IF this chap fits into the picture, but FEB 1829 .... perhaps ....

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 09:57 BST (UK)

Hi all,

On TAO I can find index reference for Ann Ransom (possible daughter of Thomas Ransom and Catharine McNally) circa 1817 - 1892 (marriage 1840 to Francis Walter Von Stieglitz (brother of Catharine McNally's husband marriage 1830)

BUT
I cannot find an index reference for Thomas Ransom Junior (probable son of Thomas Ransom and Catharine McNally)... I can find Thomas Ransom born 1852, but not the lad born 1820...

Probably the issues that arose after Catharine's death in the 1850's over the return to Thomas Ransom of his inherited property from the property of Frederick Von Stieglitz may explain this apparent lack of submitted records...

http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Sunday 18 October 09 10:29 BST (UK)

Quite right, Robyn, a totally insensitive and thoughtless scenario, conceived in haste and excitement at your new slant-

So, Ann returns to John Cummings, John McNally can't return to Launceston and does a bunk from Hobart, and Catherine McNally leaves when Ann Cummings returns and she ends up in Hobart with Thomas Ransom, initially working for him, but quickly developing a partnership relationship. In due course they adopt an orphan child born in 1818 as a companion for young Thomas. David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 18 October 09 10:43 BST (UK)

Dave:

Well it, like many other hypothises, can fit the known data. Doesn't make it right of course. ::)

JM: wiggy has actually seen the original baptism which has Catharine as singLe.

Quote

I have record of Thomas's baptism - born 14th November - baptism 18th December 1820.

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 18 October 09 11:09 BST (UK)

Hi all,

Quote from: regross on Sunday 18 October 09 10:43 BST (UK)

(quoting Wiggy )
Quote
I have record of Thomas's baptism - born 14th November - baptism 18th December 1820.

Umm, I thought it just did not name a father .... did not realise the record actually indicated that Catharine was single, sorry, my mistooken ::) must be the long drive ... From all the pages on these threads I had thought that Catharine's marital status for that birth was still not resolved... I thought the child was baptised Thomas McNally... sorry... didn't realise he was baptised as Thomas Ransom... I thought that was perhaps the crux of these threads :-[

Errrrrrrrr, So who was C N in that brand on Mrs Ransom's steer ??? ??? ??? - the stayed cattle in the newspaper advert of 25 Dec 1829, which was of course not just Christmas Day, but just at the time that Catharine Mc Nally would be preparing to marry Frederick Von Stieglitz ....

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 18 October 09 12:36 BST (UK)

JM.

child wa baptised as Thomas McNally and is on here: http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=8 born 1820 no 390218 no parents names given.

from wiggy this thread page 4 #58

Quote

Yes Robyn, I've seen the baptismal record for Thomas in 1820 to Catharine 'unmarried' and no father's name. Not a huge help really - that's what I went for first when in Hobart last!

Been a long day

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 19 October 09 01:59 BST (UK)

Hi All,

Yes, yesterday was a long day ! Some suggestions follow:

a) have we considered that perhaps Catharine Mc Nally was born free, at Norfolk Island in those several years before that first settlement was removed to VDL ? Thus perhaps at least one of her parents was transported from PJ to NI ....
This would account for NO immigration records getting her to the penal colonies from the UK.... and also for not finding her christening records (we've been looking in the WRONG place ;).... and for her surname remaining McNally from birth ;)....
I don't know if that explains the impediment, but perhaps she was born circa 1790 to a convict mum and a military chap stationed at NI....
Perhaps when Thomas Ransom was involved in organising the removal of the settlement from NI to VDL Catharine's papers were not in order and Thomas realised this but would not leave a (by then) 14 year old "humble" lass on the Island with the few remaining men to harvet the coffee crop etc ....
WITHOUT proper papers in VDL how could she attend a muster and prove she was NOT a convict ::)

I think there's a headstone on NI dating from that first settlement that has deteriorated to the extent that only the initials can be found... C H N .... perhaps a real clue there...

Perhaps the impediment was simply relating to Catharine's lack of a piece of paper relating to her birth, and by Thomas' will and his 1829 death, she then had a legal piece of paper which gave her name as Catharine McNally...
that piece of paper (or the proved probate with the court stamp on it) may well have been sufficient to permit the Rev to proceed and permit her to then marry ....

And it would thus be logical to presume that back in the previous decade and at Hobart, that Thomas Ransom was the father of both Ann and Thomas Ransom... and of course that Catharine McNally was their mother....

b) If born and raised on NI, then she would have attended the rudimentary school there, and learnt reading and writing .... hoping Wiggy's baptismal record has Catharine's writing on it...

c) Have we checked carefully all the possible muster records for the surnames starting with N for possible sightings of that C N after all that stray steer was found in 1829

Cheers, I have driven several hundred kms this morning, and will be making return journey to my OH shortly....

I was sort of hoping that Catharine would have been "found"... :P

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Monday 19 October 09 04:24 BST (UK)

JM - I did pay special attention to NorfolkIsland when this saga started, but could find nothing. Irene Schaffer has confirmed that she also could find nothing relating to Catherine on Norfolk.It is the evident place to look as Thomas was the last off in 1814,(and there are strong family connections with Thomas 1820 marrying Sarah Stanfield ) . Any woman or girl on Norfolk seems accounted for . Thomas and others from NI arrived in Hobart late 1814 on the Kangaroo, on the second try to get there by Lieut Jeffries! I have done my best to check every Catharine/Catherine/Cathrina/Katherine/Christiana etc in VDL since 1810, including those that arrived on Calcutta 1803, also McNalty/Macanaly/mcanley/nallly, Neale/etc, with (obviuosly ) no success.

What sticks out is that Catharine is steadfast in her use of the name, CCMc, in baptising Thomas,named in old Thomas will, and in marrying Fred,which suggests a legitimate entitlement to it- by birth or marriage- or a determined hiding of her original identity.

So far the only way we have got a Catherine McNally on the island is via the 1811 birth record and the 1816 employment notice , where the link is the name Catharine (once) and John Mcnally (twice), and a link of McNally to Cummings via the abscondment notice. If Catherine was only the common law wife of McNally there would have been no legal impediment to her marrying Thomas 1741, and she would presumably have been pleased to get rid of the name- so why did she marry Stieglitz as a spinster under the name McNally-

so, (1)I think the impediment was Thomas-it ceased when he died- so he held his vows to Elizabeth (Durrell?) to be binding? There was no female connection to Thomas on Norfolk.
(2)McNally was either a maiden or her mothers name,and we just have not yet found her arrival on the island about 1818-20, (or) she has hidden her real name by taking on the identity of a Catharine Christina NcNally- but that must have been in a very narrow window of opportunity when arriving in VDL, a name switch before she was known as anybody else. And that means we can't even be certain of the name Catharine- we could perhaps focus on all CMs? Charlotte, Claribel, whatever, but ....

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Monday 19 October 09 04:39 BST (UK)

we need to look for a woman who arrived in VDL between Jan 1 -October 19 1819 aged 33-45, either under the name McNally or variation, or another name which she changed to McNally during the year . And that brings us back to Wiggy's favourite Barbara Cartland scenario that she was the companion of Thomas Amos who left her behind! DAVID

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 19 October 09 06:23 BST (UK)

:) Just Moi Opinion, :)
:o ::) ???

As with the last thread, and now this thread... I try to get to the primary records or images of these... I try not to rely on reference books but on the sources cited in those books... I also try to get to the contempory records of the period, not just the ones cited in those books... I try to cite references myself....... I try to be positive in my thoughts and actions, and share the knowledge I have, particularly about the penal colonial era .... I simply try to help fellow RChatters...

I don't see that I can help further on this thread... Of course I shall make time to follow it, but ..... I am of the view that confining the search for her arrival in VDL to a period of less than twelve months (1 Jan - 19 Oct, 1819) is too restrictive and has been undertaken by several of us here at RChat several times ... and by others, including perhaps professional researchers at earlier times and with the same outcome....

Gentle reminder though that the baptismal record may have been submitted to TAO in recent times and the information on it may not be based on an inspection of the Parish records showing baptisms before and after, all recorded in date order... Also, a gentle reminder that of course, CCMc was NOT the initials on the steer belonging to Mrs Ransom, (noting that the owner of the adjoining property upon which her cattle had strayed, believed Mrs Ransom was "C N") errrrr.... those initials .... C N .... errrrrrr I believe I have previously offered the suggestion that NALLY, Catharine, Mc. may be how her name may have been recorded in VDL prior to her marriage to Frederick...

" C N "

Catharine was a real person, who lived and breathed VDL air... her descendants include Wiggy... .... to my way of thinking, the search for this VDL lass ought to cover a period from as early as say 1780 (her possible parents' possible marriage may date from about then) up to her own 1830 marriage to Frederick.... she deserves NOTHING LESS...

Errrrrrrrr, afterall, the subject line that Wiggy uses on this thread is
Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana :)

Sorry, but its Just Moi Opinion that I cannot help further, so Cheers, (and the ladies threw flowers for the bushranger ;D)
Good Searchings,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Monday 19 October 09 06:38 BST (UK)

Dave:
LiKe JM has said: Why restrict it to then. It is always possible that she arrived AFTER the October muster and before the November birth which is I think the earliest official use of Catharine Christiana McNally that has been found.

Yes we have a Catherine married to John MCNally and having children but so far this lady has no connection the name of Christiana.

Wehave made assumptions that the female with Thomas Ransome prior to this date is Catharine McNally BUT we have no PROOF.

Not possible for her to a granddaughter of Thomas's arrived from England heavily pregnant? NO No No too much imagination.

regards

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 19 October 09 07:57 BST (UK)

Hi all, :)

1) Please, don't blame David for my flights of fancy - I do have them and they are not verified - but 'many a true word is spoken in jest' (goodness knows who I will attribute that quote to!) I have these wild scenarios and throw them out to be disproved - not the correct way to do things, but this is not an easy find/search. and hopefully everyone recognises them for what they are - Wiggy's fantasies!

2) I know that David has done thorough searches for Catharine both in VDL, N.I. P.J and back in Britain, and that he goes for source material whenever possible - not an raw researcher - unlike me for example. (No I know you don't need defending David - just thought I'd mention the matter.)

3) I also know, from the help I've received from you folk, that you are experienced and correct researchers who go for the original sources when possible. For that I thank you most sincerely. If you have done all you can JM - then thanks for you time with the thread - it is greatly appreciated.

Maybe we all need to take time out to get a longer view of things - so much searching and so much food for thought been thrown into the ring - it all needs careful analysis - by me anyway - I can't take it all in so quickly.

I have taken note of what you have told me, and the original sources you think I may be able to chase up and have today been in contact with the Diocese of Tasmania re originals of the various certificates I am seeking - so will be chasing those when we get to Hobart next month.

Going back to ruminate quietly again. ;)

Wiggy :)

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Monday 19 October 09 08:18 BST (UK)

Robyn,

Actually Catherine as a daughter of Thomas WAS an early thought, which would have again made her a married or a defacto McNally, but the IGI showed only 5 Catharine Ransom marriages 1800-1820 , all in New York and none to a McNally, so that lapsed without further investigation. Had she not been married, then she would have been Catharine Ransom as mother on Thomas's birth. If she was married then Mr McNally would also have moved in with Thomas, and also appeared in the Muster. If she had dumped Mr McNally( so we are back to John Mcnally,or even James Macanally)then presumably she would have reverted to her maiden name of Ransom when baptising Thomas. From whichever way you look at it, it is not lack of imagination which seems to rule out that idea, which would have been so simple! and why would she call herself Mrs Ransom, and not Miss Ransom, nobody worried about single mothers in early VDL! David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Monday 19 October 09 15:58 BST (UK)

If you go to eHeritage.statelibrary.tas.gov.au and enter Christina Stieglitz you can see Catharine's tomb and headstone. The image actually doesn't show the headstone in full, it is in the foreground at an angle and bisected, but you get the feel of the place. David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Tuesday 20 October 09 04:02 BST (UK)

1 Catherine Wood was an "aged woman" on Wednesday 3rd February 1819 when her husband, Matthew Wood, a
settler much advanced in years, was "horribly murdered in his residence in New Norfolk.

2 Saturday 15 May 1819, Thomas on list of subscribers to the Auxiliary Branch Bible Society VDL, and he stumped up a bit more than most- there is a theme of church and religious leaning running through the story of Thomas and Catharine.He paid up for his pew in St Davids, Catharine donated to the Wesleyans, both were highly regarded etc. Makes me long for her to be Miss Brown, but that could only be if she became McNally through marriage, and we've done that . Have roamed and trawled for methodist missionaries in NSW and VDL but no link yet.
3 No advertisements found in 1819 for a comely wench to operate the bar of the Joiner's Arms

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Tuesday 20 October 09 05:58 BST (UK)

BIRTH .--On the 28th ultimo, at Mr. Fryett's farm near Herdsman's Cove, a woman named Catherine O'Neil was safely delivered of three fine boys. The mother is doing well ; but the infants all died before proper medical attendance arrived. It is Singular that this good woman has been delivered of four Sons within the Short Space of eight months
Hobart Town Gazette 2 Jan 1819
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Tuesday 20 October 09 06:50 BST (UK)

It was a pretty tight system within a very small town

Government Public Notice.
Secretary's Office, Hobart Town, 3rd January, 1818
ALL Female Prisoners not affigned to Service, and who are allowed to be at large on their own Hands, must have regular Tickets of Leave ; they are required to apply at the Secretary's Office on Wednefday next, .the 7th Inftanf, between the Hours of Ten and One O’Clock, and to bring with them in writing the Names of the Ships in which they left England, the Years in which they arrived from Europe, and.the Names of the Veffels by which they arrived at this Colony alfo, the Periods and Places of Trial, and the periods of Sentence.
Such Women as negleclt or disobey this Notice will be ordered into Government Employment.
Several Females haying appeared at the General Muster having stated themselves themelves to have become Free by Servitude, but were unable , to exhibit any Certificate of Freedom, all females, who have become Free by Expiration of Sentence, not poffering a Certificate ,of Freedom,, are to apply, at this Office, on the following Day ,(Thürsday 8th),betweèn the Hours ot Ten and One; and bring with them in writing particulars Of their Trials, Sentences and vessels in which they arrived from Europe and at this Colony, , . . , ,
By Command of His Honor the Lieutenant Governor,
W. A Ross, Secretary

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 20 October 09 07:08 BST (UK)

Dave,

just makes it harder to understand how Catharine went unrecorded ::)

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Tuesday 20 October 09 07:08 BST (UK)

Would Catherine have seen this sort of notice after arrival?

18 July 1818 WANTED immediately, for a small Family in Town, a middle aged Female Servant of All-Work,-Apply at the Gazette

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 20 October 09 07:16 BST (UK)

David - Yes I saw that ad too - but which small family? - I saw another like it - but without reference to a family!

Robyn - I think - still ;) - that she didn't get recorded because she wasn't a convict!! I will hold to that conviction (!) until someone proves otherwise!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 20 October 09 07:45 BST (UK)

Wiggy,

I agree but with all the checking and musters the necessity for church records of life events it is hard to understand that she id not noted as we know her until Thomas' baptism.

Hope you manage to track down Ann Ransom's baptism. :)

Dave, such scrutinybis perhaps the onlt way that she will be found. I am in awe of your research. :-*

regards

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 20 October 09 07:56 BST (UK)

Bye the Bye,

I have been looking at Thomas Ransom's earlier relationshhip via the IGI and restricted to London and Middlesex areas.

In 1778 a Thomas Ransom married Elisabeth Durell in Shoreditch.

Two possible daughters Ann 1780 and Magdalen Jane, 1784, both baptised in Bethnal Green.

Also found a possible marriage fro Ann to Sam Huetin Bethnal Green ib 1804, two daughters Ann 1805 and Elizabeth 1807. Both are too young to be contenders fro Catharine.

Magdalen Jane I can't trace yet.

regards

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 20 October 09 08:07 BST (UK)

We are inclined to think Elizabeth Durrell is the one! Been trying to chase those two daughters.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Tuesday 20 October 09 18:01 BST (UK)

Macnally, MacAnally and Nally all share the same original Irish origins, in the two Irish names Mac an fhailghigh, "son of the poor man", and Mac Con Uladh, "son of the hound of Ulster", the latter name is almost entirely confined to Ulster including most of what are now counties Armagh and Monaghan. Today, the anglicized versions of the name remain very common in these counties, with the "Mac-"forms in the majority, Outside Ulster, the principal origin of the name is in north-west Connacht, in counties Roscommon and Mayo,( Bridget and Winifred!) The most common form in these counties is the simple "Nally"( as suggested by JM) In 1890, McNally was concentrated in counties Antrim, Armagh and Monaghan, (MacNally was among the 20 most common names in Monaghan (1970) while Nally was almost exclusive to Roscommon and Mayo...David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 21 October 09 00:22 BST (UK)

Wiggy, Dave,

Is it worth posting a query in the Irish section with the information you have on the surname?

Coupled with the unusual combination of Catharine Christiana,and the time frame, there is the possiblity that some one may stumble across a record for her in Ireland.

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: TF13 on Wednesday 21 October 09 00:43 BST (UK)

Hi ya, this is a link to wiggy's thread on the ireland general board from july;
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,395697.0.html

you have to keep the faith and hope catherine will reveal herself soon 8)

tony

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 21 October 09 02:20 BST (UK)

Thanks for that Tony!

She's elusive that's for sure!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 21 October 09 02:30 BST (UK)

Yes, lets not forget Thomas! This is just an IGI construct, based on exhaustive trawling, cross referencing and eliminations, but it is still just that- a construct from one data base, with no substantiation.. however...

It would make Thomas 37 at marriage, 39 when his first child was born, 45 at trial, 48 when transported, 73 when evacuated from Norfolk, 79 when Thomas 1820 was born , and 88 at death

Thomas Ransom 1741-1729 ;

1 Thomas Ransom. m. Mary Hill - 29 Sept 1740 at St Benet Paul’s Wharf

2Thomas Ransom c. 20 Jun 1741 at St Martin in the Fields .

3Married 8 Jun 1778 at St Leonards, Shoreditch, to

Elizabeth Durrell c.6 Nov 1757 (John and Elizabeth Durrell) at St George in the
East, Stepney,
children 3.1 Ann Ransom c. 13 Dec 1780 St Matthew’s, Bethnal Green,
( m. Samuel Huet 9 Sep 1796 St Matthew’s, Bethnal Green,
3.2 Magdalen Jane c. 30 Jul 1784 St Matthew’s, Bethnal Green,

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 21 October 09 02:34 BST (UK)

Have we overlooked freemasonry as a source?
1817 - - 22 February - the Hobart Town Gazette reports: "after a performance by the Chaplain, the Rev. Robt. Knopwood,a neat and appropriate Masonic oration was delivered by a member of the society" on the occasion of the consecration of the land intended for St David's Church, after which "they partook of a very handsome cold collation, all anticipating prosperity and happiness of Van Diemen's Land".
1819 - June 12 - the Hobart Town Gazette records a list of subscribers to the Auxiliary Branch Bible Society of Van Diemen's Land at the Derwent which names twelve members of "the free and accepted Masons belonging to the Lodge of St. John, Hobart T."
1819 - 16 October - the Hobart Town Gazette reports that Michael Lee (formerly of the lodge at Norfolk Island) had been granted a licence for the tavern, the Freemason's Arms, in Hobart.
1820 - 1 January - the Hobart Town Gazette reports that 'On Monday last, the Freemasons resident in this Settlement assembled and went in procession to lay the foundation stone of a new lodge intended to be erected in Melville Street on the plot of ground which they have occupied in exchange for that originally held by the lodge at Norfolk Island.'

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 21 October 09 02:46 BST (UK)

and the last thought for the day (?)

Wiggy is convinced and so far the records bear her out , that our Catharine was not a convict-she was consistent in her use of Mcnally as her real name- so let us accept that she WAS born 1789. So she either came to NSW/VDL or was born colony- so have we individually and collectively in the frenzy of the chase, explored to the limits of our capacity and the available records, female births in NSW 1789?
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 21 October 09 02:50 BST (UK)

oh dear, did we miss this, is our Wiggy right after all, is Leo right

Classified Advertising
The Sydney Gazette and... Saturday 19 September 1818, page 3. Advertising 429 words
... T. S. Amos. WANTED, a FEMALE SERVANT ma especta- ble Family, who understands Cooking, and other HousholdWork. None need apply whose cha- racter will not bear the strictest Enquiry. For Refe- rence ... good Well of water, and every convcniency for a genteel Family.-Apply on the Premisses, or at Mr

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 21 October 09 02:57 BST (UK)

WDAve,

Masons were more open in the community back then than they are now.
I wonder how in depth their records are and certainly is a field we should not forget. Whre would we star NSW or Tasmania?

(my father was a mason for many years in Victoria but at that time they were quite secretive although I remeber attending family chrismas funtions in the masonic hall)

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 21 October 09 03:14 BST (UK)

David,

You're having me on aren't you ;D - the T S Amos doesn't refer to the prospective female employee as you well know - but it could!!!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 21 October 09 04:23 BST (UK)

Nice one Dave,

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2178215?searchTerm=amos

includes "TS Amos", "the premises" and the body of the advert but in 3 different adverts!!!

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 21 October 09 04:52 BST (UK)

Ahem.

Yes, well,the TS Amos actually refers to the farm at Cabramatta, doesn't it, the add above the one below it,and I got excited , and I'd been whipper snippering in the sun and feeling my age, and I just quickly copied the electronic version and did't look at the original text, but anyway, I bet you both got just a bit of a frisson, before you realised my credibility was totally in tatters- wish fulfilment, and a touch of the Barbara Cartlands-sorry

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 21 October 09 05:33 BST (UK)

forgiven 8)

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Thursday 22 October 09 07:07 BST (UK)

Hi all
a surprise find on another mailing list re Norfolk Island, it hace its own facebook site.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=112736350104

regards

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 03 November 09 23:54 GMT (UK)

HIi

all some intersting links for Jamaica:

http://www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com
http://www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com/Samples/Soldiers.htm

from
http://www.archhistory.co.uk/taca/history.html

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 11 November 09 10:08 GMT (UK)

Haven't lost sight of the search - busy ferreting out other members of the extended family and seeing if they can help!

Also chasing up various suggestions made during this thread. Been looking at your thoughts Robyn.

Also busy on other lines of family just to let Catharine simmer for a while.

Cheers

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Tuesday 17 November 09 22:52 GMT (UK)

Ummm,

See the linked thread for info about the likely father of Ann Ransom... Catharine's daughter...

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,418431.0.html ... this bit .... its in German, but look....

Anne Ransom * ... 1817 (14), + Launceston, Tasmania 1.10. 1892, T.d.Captains Benjamin Overhand und der Catherine Christiane McNally, AdoptivT. d. Gastwirts Thomas Ransom u. d. Catherine McNally

Umm, fingers crossed for Wiggy, cause I'm sure we addressed "Benjamin" on the first thread, but those long threads are very hard to follow

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 17 November 09 23:32 GMT (UK)

Hi all,

Nice, BUT There are several people doing STIEGLITZ research so not sure how their research on other lines may be. ::)

I have spent some time going through the index of all military personel who served in the colonies in the period 1810-1830. :P

Several McNally's (12 in all) but after cross checking all references only one possible as a husband for Catharine a Robert McNally who served with the 1/46 South Devonshire regiment which was here 1814-1818 so Catharine may well have been left behind when the regiment left.

Would be nice if someone was able to look at the AJCP microfilms for WO12 reels 5809,5810 part 3796 which must run across both to see waht records there are on him.

good luck all

RObyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 18 November 09 04:21 GMT (UK)

Not sure if any of this muddies the waters, or casts a light -
Thomas Ransom - From The Weekly Courier (on film) 23 Mar 26 1904, photo with his bicycle that he started riding at age 75, also article about his death page 26, column 1 same date. Thomas has a birth date of 10 Dec 1821, Hobart. Also photo four generations Thomas Ransom and daughter, grand daughter and great grand son, no names for any of them - 23 May 1903 page 23. Good pictures.

When F.W Von S. dies , Examiner article 15 Apr 1889, p23 c7, he married a daughter of Thomas Amos of Killymoon.

There is an application to marry file that features Catharine McNally marrying Von S. in 1830. Interestingly, the card index that leads to the file (Z1755 film
) has notation on the card- Class C, Arthur File - Arthur would be the govenor, and the class designation would identify a convict. But nothing on the application itself to indicate convict - just bachelor and widow.

If Thomas McNally marries as Thomas Ransom it would suggest that he was not born to McNally, whatever mother's marital status at the time. Children were often raised by widowed mothers new husband. Young daughters took the name of the man who raised them, but boys were assumed to carry name of birth father - to perpetuate the name. If he drops the McNally name I suspect that McNally was not his father.

A shipping list at Tas. Archives has Mr and Mrs F. L. Steiglitz and five children travelling to Sydney June 1852. Wonder who the children are - and what was happening in Sydney?. Not a voyage to take casually in those days.

Thomas's death cert. in Tasmania in 1904 would include provision for parents names - assuming they were known by...probably middle-aged son or daughter, so how accurate.

Wivenhoe.

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 18 November 09 05:27 GMT (UK)

Welcome Wivenhoe to part two of this saga.

See part one where we think we have left no stone unturned ??? :-\

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=383665.new;topicseen#new

This is 26 pages long and this one part 2 is already 17 pages long. We are still finding things!!!! :o

It is a very intriguing research so far and quite addictive as we all really want to discover how Catharine Christiana Mcnally found her way to Tassie c 1818.

These questions remain unresloved.

Was she nee McNally or Mrs McNally?

How and when did she arrive?

All help is invaluable in trying to find these answers.

hope you have a spare hour or so to read the saga

regards

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 18 November 09 05:33 GMT (UK)

Yes, Welcome Wivenhoe,

I agree with Robyn....

And I'm sure we did consider the chap Thomas AMOS at Killymoon.... ( that's Thomas Amos, the constable, as opposed to T S Amos Esq, solicitor)

Cheers, enjoy the reading, and get to / through the first 26 pages before re-read these now 18 pages...

Tis addictive... umm, well that's Just Moi Opinion....

Regards,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 18 November 09 06:59 GMT (UK)

Quote from: rpoole on Monday 12 October 09 13:30 BST (UK)

Henry Lewis Von STIEGLITZ wed Helen AMOS, daughter of Adam AMOS, at Campbelltown Tas 9/12/1834

Aussie Bob :D

Remember also that Adam AMOS was the Police constable.... with a Diary see

(I'll find that clue and modify this post shortly.
MODIFYING TO ADD YES, see reply No. 7 this thread, where MOI notes ............Adam AMOS, District Constable at Great Swan Port ... well apparently he had a Diary.... I have not found the Diary, but found the following mention of it "The Diary of District Constable Adam Amos shows the following information from a Muster Roll at October 19, 1823" at http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/con387.htm The Diary - perhaps entered up daily for the Police Notes... would perhaps have information including names and events and dates .... perhaps hotel licence disputes, court appearances...

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Thursday 19 November 09 11:01 GMT (UK)

I haven't checked, but I am certain that the East Coast Amos family has nothing to do with Thomas S Amos,solicitor, the assumed lover of Anne Cummings between Jan -April 1819, who died later in that year at Sydney.

The reference in the Examiner 1889 (Death of Francis Walter VS) to his wife (Ann) being the daughter of Thomas Amos of Killymoon can only be an 1889 Examiner misreporting and a typo of Amos for Ransom- Ann married Francis Walter in 1840 as Ann Ransom, the (adopted) daughter of Thomas Ransom (1741) and Catherine McNally(1789?) The builders and owners of Killymoon in 1840 were Fred L V Stieglitz and his wife was Catharine Christiana McNally, who married Fred L Vs in 1830 after her de facto partner Thomas Ransom (1741) died in 1829 at Green Ponds (Kempton) . Thomas (1741) never lived at Killymoon which wasn't built or thought of in 1829 The owner of Killymoon in 1889 was Thomas Ransom ( born 1820, son of Catharine McNally and registered as Thomas McNally and who was the beneficiary as Thomas McNally under the will ofThomas Ransom (1741)). He subsequently adopted the name Ransom.This Thomas Ransom (1820) was the step son of Fred L VS and by upbringing but not blood the brother of Ann Ransom

Yes, the facts ,and the scenario we have hypothesised to link those facts, have led us to the conclusion that Ann was the natural daughter of Thomas S Amos and Ann Cummings, but there is no connection between Thomas Amos and Killymoon- he was well dead (1819) before Killymoon was built and named during 1830s by Von Stieglitz and Catherine (McNally)

Welcome Wivenhoe to the saga and to Team Catharine- your lead re the Arthur Files is exciting- you seem to be really on the ball there- are you able to follow this up, or is this one to throw to the AOT and ask for a clarification?

JM- Ithink that the German post is my fault- my discredited Bryan Overend/Catherine McNalty scenario. You may remember that i suggested that Bryan had reinvented himself as Benjamin Ormond after the wreck of the Emu, but later we found this was not so. The only way anybody could refer to Benjamin ( not Bryan ) Overhand was as a result of this early theory. Similarly I have contacted Dave von Stieglitz recently, and he also had been mislead by this earlystory of mine- mea culpa- I think that he was the second David that was referred to earlier as having this theory independently, but , alas,' twas down to me again.

I am currentl trying to track any descendants of Christina Von Stieglitz, eldest dau (1842) of Ann Ransom and Francis Walter. She married Marmaduke Robert Langdale (of London)in 1867 at Avoca but is worse than Catherine at leaving no traces- just disappears from sight . I am checking with the successors of Paramatta Mental Hospital for the entrance file of a Marmaduke Robert langdale who died 83 ( right age) in 1922 . He had a sister Louisa , and her father was stated as 41st regiment of Foot. IGI shows a Marmaduke marrying a Louisa Jordan in London in 1812, but that doesnt fit with Louisa Langdale born 1845 at Hampstead- however that entry is the right girl because it specifies she married a Von Stieglitz , so there is an LSD submitter out there who is looking as well- hope she stumbles on this thread. I am just hoping that oral history or documents may pass down the female lines, so i picked the eldest daughter and the one called Christina!

Good hunting, all!

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 21 November 09 00:04 GMT (UK)

David

- from Leo's message I think the East Coast Amos family is connected to the von Stielgitz - but some generations later - so I agree, no connection at this critical time of Catharine Christina.

I Still hold that Thomas Ransom is Thomas McNally's father!!!! :D And possibly half brother of Anne!! But I will concede that point if you bring in the proof!

Quote

the scenario we have hypothesised to link those facts, have led us to the conclusion that Ann was the natural daughter of Thomas S Amos and Ann Cummings,

The operative word here is hypothesised isn't it??

Absolutely no connection between Thomas Amos and Killymoon!

Wivenhoe, welcome! I do agree with you that Thomas (of the bike) is most likely the son of Thomas Ransom - not McNally, though his mother is definitely Catharine McNally - I have the birth registration from the records. Born November 1820, baptised dec. 1820.

JM - I have now seen Catharine Christina's signature! She can write! not too well, but better than Thomas! Well that was one positive from our trip to Tasmania this week - (There were others also ;))

Cheers all!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 21 November 09 01:03 GMT (UK)

Whoa Wiggy!

Firstly though, welcome back from Tasmania, and your archival trawls

Never any suggestion that the East Coast Amos family did not have a connection with the Von Stieglitz family- there were marriages- the point Iwas making was that I see no connection , other than the coincidence of name, between that family and Thomas S Amos the solicitor who died in 1819, and that later marriages between families in the mid 19th C have nothing to do with the origins of Catharine McNally and with old Thomas Ransom- the Von Stieglitz marriage produced no children, and ,in the context of our search Catharine McNaly ceases to exist in 1830 and becomes Christina Von Stieglitz- her life 1830-1857 is of interest (in the search for her origins) only as far as it may give clues to those origins.

I have never suggested that Thomas 1820 was the son of a McNally as a father- he was registered and baptised as Thomas McNally mother Catharine McNally, father U, and was named as beneficary as such in the 1829 will of Thomas Ransom - why would he not have acknowldged him as his natural son- uinkless it was a legal issue regaring inheritance by illigitimate issue , which is why the inheritance was intrust to Catherine for her son- need legal advice on that one. And if you are asserting that Thomas 1820 was indeed the son of Thomas and Catharine because that is a more respectable image for catherine, but that he may be the half brother of Anne, who was the father of Anne and why would Catherine need toadopt her own child?

From Leo's advice , it seems that pursuing any descendants of Christina Langdale is a dead end.

The comment by Wivenhoe about the Arthur papers is a lead that must be followed- we could strike gold there

hypothesise"- a conjecture put forth to account for known facts- a provisional supposition which accounts for known facts and serves as a starting point for further investigation by which itmay be proved or disproved

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 21 November 09 02:18 GMT (UK)

Whoa David!!
I was agreeing with you re East Coast Amoses!!!

- and confirming hypothesis - am I so often disagreeing that you don't recognise agreement when you see it?? :)

The remark re Thomas Jnr's ancestry was addressed to Wivenhoe! I know you know the facts as far as I know them anyway!!!

Nope, Christina Langdale doesn't seem like a viable lead. oh well! Keep trawling!

Total agreement!

Thanks we had a great time in Tassie! :D

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 21 November 09 02:41 GMT (UK)

Hello David - a possible clue for the family of Christina Von St. and husband Marmaduke Robert Langdale - Marmaduke Phillip Langdale enlisted July 1917 for first AIF, age 19yrs 7 months. Next of Kin is mother Violet Langdale, Gibson St Bronte, and Marmaduke is a station hand, address Gibson St Bronte, same as NOK mother Violet and Marmaduke is born in....... Fiji.
Marmaduke Phillip Langdale dies 16 Mar 1996, age 99ys late of Coonabarabran. Sydney Morning Herald 22 Mar 1996. (so he would be the man enlisting in 1917 and born Fiji)
Marmaduke Vyvan Langdale, Late of Seaforth, dies 30 Aug 1989, Sydney Morning Herald 5 Sep 1989. From NSW BDM Violet Langdale, dies 1959 Waverley, Sydney, 88 yrs old. If Violet is b. about 1871 she could have married a son of Christina (Von St ) Langdale and they lived in Fiji. Do not know who VyVan is but death notices in the SMH might be useful.

Cheer Wivenhoe

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 21 November 09 03:03 GMT (UK)

Worth investigating then!

I'll go to the electoral rolls and see what I can find! Are there census papers for last century??

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 21 November 09 03:12 GMT (UK)

Wiggy- so , two 'whoas'make a 'wight"? we agree- but you slid out of answering the half-brother bit- i notice these things!

Wivenhoe- Fiji!!!! Wiggy had me in the West Indies at one stage- the sun never sets on this empire. Thank you- the Sydneycentric nature of the notices suggest that MRL may well have been in the Parammatta Home in 1922- the only other option appears to be a firm of corseteers in country Victoria. I will follow the leads

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 21 November 09 06:17 GMT (UK)

Hi

NSW had Marmaduke P Langdale marrying Lilian A Nairn in 1924 and Marmaduke Vyvyan Langdale marrying Mary Vista Love in 1940 both in Sydney

likely to be living relatives of these couples

No births in NSW to 1908 or Victoria to 1920 for either :'(

However there is a dec qtr 1909 birth for a Marmaduke Vyvyan Langdale on Free BDM"S

In 1914 in South Melbourne Louisa Von Steiglitz aged 73 (b c 1844) daughter of Marmaduke Langdale and Hetta Chapman died

Who is this lady?? Is this the sister of Marmaduke Robert Langdale? Would this death certificate hold any details of where she lived and where she was born and which Von S she was married to?

Wonder how we find bdm's in Fiji?
http://boards.ancestry.com/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=646&p=localities.oceania.fiji.general
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~fjiwgw/
http://www.janesoceania.com/oceania_genealogy/index.htm
http://www.unescap.org/esid/psis/population/database/poplaws/law_fiji/fiji_003.htm (great graphics!)

Nice place for a holiday :)

amedned to add info

regards

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 21 November 09 06:24 GMT (UK)

Hi Robyn

there is another thread going for Von Stieglitz/Ransom - and on that Leo Von Stielgitz may have given the answers to your Louisa question! Have a look see - started that thread to try and home in on Anne.

I know Louisa comes up on it! Got a feeling she is not from Anne's offspring - not sure though - will have to check again.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 21 November 09 06:30 GMT (UK)

Sorry Robyn - just flicked over to look it up!
- it was a child of Anne's and Francis - married Louisa Langdale - sister of Marmaduke who married Christina Von Stieglitz I do believe. This could get VERY COMPLICATED if we are not careful - we now have three Christina Von Stieglitz in play! Fred's sister, Fred's wife and Fred's niece!

ErrorSPAM

REPORT THIS POST AS SPAM (Use 'Report to Moderator'). DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS IN THIS POST. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS PERSON.

] Wife has died - one out! - not sure about sister.[/color][/color]

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 21 November 09 06:50 GMT (UK)

Complicated indeed 8)

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 21 November 09 07:33 GMT (UK)

Hi All,

Have just checked Victorian records and Christina Langdale daughter of Annie ransom and Fran Streiglitz died in FitzroyMelbourne in 1888 rego number 9372

well there we go another piece confirmed I wonder what her death certificate has on it in respect to children?

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 21 November 09 08:23 GMT (UK)

That's great Robyn. Will try to chase that one up. I've written it downand will chase up after next pay day - touring Tassie stretches the budget - but well worth the effort!

Found all sorts of graves and bits of paper for which we'd have had to pay lots otherwise - still trying to work out if the trip outweighs the fees!! The pleasure of it certainly does!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 21 November 09 08:57 GMT (UK)

Re post 261 - sure this has been said before but - - do you think Thomas would adopt Anne for her sake - could the 'Adopted daughter' refer to Thomas doing the adopting - (then Frederick after Thomas's death - though not changing her name - just having her as his daughter in his house until her marriage.) Cash may have misunderstood who the adopting parent was - well that's a thought anyway.

Robyn I'd love to know why I couldn't find Christina when I looked up the Vic. records the other night - makes me mad when that happens!

Re post 262 Robyn - does it sound as if Marmaduke married again to this Hetta Chapman - or is this another generation do you think?? - if Christina died 1880 - Hetta may have been second wife - waddya think? I'm writing all these people down and attempting to put them into family groups and generations - ti see what fits.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 21 November 09 09:33 GMT (UK)

Hi Wivenhoe -

I notice some of the Von Stieglitz end up in Wivenhoe - are you a family member by any chance? Or is this pure co-incidence?

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Raylen on Saturday 21 November 09 10:17 GMT (UK)

Hi to all :)

I'm following this thread but I can't contribute anything so far.
I post this for information only. Maybe relevant- maybe not

Quote from: WiggyHobbes08 on Saturday 21 November 09 08:57 GMT (UK)

Re post 262 Robyn - does it sound as if Marmaduke married again to this Hetta Chapman - or is this another generation do you think?? - if Christina died 1880 - Hetta may have been second wife - waddya think?
Wiggy

Marmaduke Langdale Esq. H.M. 41st regt. married 21/3/1838
Henrietta Chapman of St. Thome
At Madras
http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps_detail.php?id=120992

Raylen

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Saturday 21 November 09 10:40 GMT (UK)

Wow - that's an interesting one - that may have been the father/grandfather of the Langdales. Would just about fit father of Marmaduke who married Christina Von Stieglitz! Looks as if another Marmaduke may have married another Henrietta/Hetta about 70 years later.

Thanks Raylen!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 21 November 09 21:37 GMT (UK)

Raylen,

welcome and what a wonderful find.

As Louisia who we think is Marmadukes sister was born c 1844 this would be an obvious marriage for the parents.
And here are births and other Langland references. Some tragic stories i here.

pity they are unnamed except father is Marmaduke for some
http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/simplesearchsummarycat.php?mode=q
but here is the baptism Marmaduke Robert:
http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/simplesearchsummarycat.php?s_id=154&sn=langdale&fn=&f=&to=&t=&c=&searchtype=exact&tn=1 Robert

Wiggy makes you want to cry in parts.

regards

RObyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 21 November 09 22:23 GMT (UK)

Welcome Raylen, you've tied that up nicely- the newspaper announcement of the marriage of Louisa Langdale to Louis frederick Stieglitz in 1868 at Fingal (District) stated that she was the daughter of the late Marmaduke langdale of HM 41st regiment of Foot, and given the marriage in 1867 at Avoca of Marmaduke robert langdale (of London)to Christina Von Stieglitz dau of walter francis Stieglitz, brother of Frederick Lewis Stieglitz, I think it is safe to assume that they were brother and sister , children of Marmaduke Langdale and Henrietta Chapman. Do I hear dissent from the team.. silent hisses of "remember Bryan"! Are we all as one. good.. onward then

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 21 November 09 22:57 GMT (UK)

Dav
yes agree on this part but still brings us no nearer to finding where/how/why Catharine Christina McNally arrived in Tassie c 1818/1819.

Have tried my online resources to folow up on Robert McNally of the1/46 South Dorsetshire here1814/1818 before moving on to India.

(note to self have a look at Raylene site again for McNally) :-\

amended to add several McNally's there but no Robert.

nice going everyone

Robyn

Title: Re: How Catharine met Frederick?
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 22 November 09 10:27 GMT (UK)

Hello all,
Looks like everyone knows about NLA.gov.au and beta newspapers...so..do a search for Thomas Ransom for The Mercury 1 Apr 1904 and look for page 7. I had hoped that one of the many articles after the death of Thomas might have a bit more information, and this one has...attended a school in Hobart run by the man who was in charge of the orphanage....Millbrook, near Killymoon, first home of newly wed Thomas was land granted to his father...(I am sure this grant would be to Thomas who d. in 1829 but does that make him his father). So I think Catharine's inheritance included this land in the NE where the Von Sts lived, which might be how their paths have crossed. Buried near his wife and mother, no mention of a sister - but what does that mean anyway.
Yes, I did see the Wivenhoe, but my families are in the NW...Wivenhoe and Emu Bay etc. Mind you I have collided with the Hepburns in this Von St/Ransom saga and they are connected to my Mitchells, originally from the NE, then to the NW for my purposes. So much for six degrees of separation.

Cheers Wivenhoe.

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: lstieglitz on Sunday 22 November 09 11:11 GMT (UK)

Hello !
This thread goes very fast and its hard to follow right in time (i have wife, job and children !)
Dont know what all is still noticed
1. Chr.McN birth year is not only a family legend, see death with article in
The Courier, Hobart, 21.8.1857
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2460475?searchTerm=stieglitz

2. To the Langdales:
a.) M. Robert and Louisa are sure prooved sisters. They were named as children of M. and Henriette in a heritage document in ireland, which source i found and lost.
b) Fr.L. vS. and Louisa have a daughter: Hester, born 1868 (in doc. a)
c) This Hester married a Mr. Gordon Thom, died 13.3.1934, Melbourne, and a
mother of Dorothy Langdale
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/10919177?searchTerm=stieglitz

bw Leo

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: lstieglitz on Sunday 22 November 09 11:17 GMT (UK)

Found again,
here a notices to the marmadukes langdale:

http://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/GetRecord/SHCOL_8218

Leo :)

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: lstieglitz on Sunday 22 November 09 12:01 GMT (UK)

concret to the last reply:

Release by Marmaduke Robert Langdale of 31 Albert Street, Mornington Crescent, London, to John Robert Jourdan, Alfred Langdale, the Rev George Augustus Langdale and Francis Stephen Clayton, trustees of the will of his grandfather Marmaduke Robert Langdale, late of Garston, Bletchingley, and Gower Street, London, (died 26 Sep 1860, will proved 25 Oct 1860) relating to his one third share in the trust money held by the trustees. The trust money was also for the benefit of Henrietta Langdale, widow of the testator's son Marmaduke Robert Langdale, and Henrietta's other children Albert Augustus and Louisa, Marmaduke Robert, party to this release, being the third child. With attached copy of baptism entry for Albert Augustus Langdale, 22 Oct 1842, and burial entry for Henrietta Langdale, 5 Dec 1861

;)

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 24 November 09 09:51 GMT (UK)

Leo,

if only the origins of Catharine Christina McNally were a well documented as those of the Langdale family!!! Life would be so much easier - but think of the people we'd have missed meeting on rootschat - the silver lining to the cloud!!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 25 November 09 09:21 GMT (UK)

Ref post 251

Hi Wivenhoe

I have Thomas Jnr's death certificate, 1904, but unfortunately it doesn't give parents names! The certificate doesn't give much information at all - not parents, not wife, not children - in fact nothing helpful at all at all.
Bit late to be replying to you - but been reading back to see what I can pick up which I may have missed. We have found that getting the gov't record of death from the indexes is just a helpful as the actual certificate for early Tasmanian records - the certificates didn't start having much on them until after 1914 in Tassie - odd isn't it - you'd have thought they'd be right up there with the leaders.
(If you want to know things from marriage and death certificates, make sure your family is in Victoria!! ;D)

Also ref 275
- we've been visiting the cemetery where Thomas Jnr and wife and children and grandchildren, great grandchildren etc etc are buried - lots of Ransoms there. Our story is that Millbrook was hived off from Killymoon - but we could be wrong on that. Certainly Thomas lived there for a while. Thomas Snr had quite a number of land grants and inns so there was a bit of property around, and all left to Thomas via Catharine, who held it is trust during her life time. Ann is buried elsewhere with Francis V St we believe - she and Francis both died in Launceston - so likely to be nearer there maybe.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 17 December 09 06:50 GMT (UK)

Hi there,

This may be a red herring, if so, Sorry, BUT
Has any consideration been given to an Ann Thomas?

There's an index reference on the NSW Col Sec's papers (1788-1825) July 1820 Petition of Robert Cooper on behalf of son of Ann Thomas, to the Male Orphan Institution, referred to Magistrate or Chaplain (Reel 6040; 4/400 p.21)

Perhaps that petition relates perhaps to the Robert Cooper in VDL ... perhaps the same chap who received a CP in VDL in July 1815 and/or ....

Perhaps the chap who "won" a civil court case in 1825 as reported in HT Gazette of Friday 18 March 1825
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1090611?searchTerm=%22robert+cooper%22

Still wondering who was the "prying eyes" or the impediment to marriage :-\

Cheers, ;)

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Thursday 17 December 09 08:39 GMT (UK)

Happy Christmas all.

Hi JM - no, not until now have we considered Ann Thomas - that is a thought worth mulling over. Thank you.

Have read over the court case - don't know if it relates or not - I gather it took place in Sydney.

It seems a bit of a long shot - but one never knows what will pay dividends, so worth a look.

Cheers,

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 17 December 09 09:43 GMT (UK)

Hi there,

Yes, it was a trial in Sydney, a civil trial, with a civil jury! It would be among the first of the civil trials by jury that the Crown lost. Most likely it was the verdict of the jury that meant it was important for settlers in both VDL and NSW.

Re Ann Thomas,

I've just realised I should have posted this reference perhaps it explains itself...

COOPER, Robert. Of Parramatta
1820 Jul 12, Oct 11 its a Petition on behalf of son of Ann Thomas, to Male Orphan Institution, referred to Magistrate or Chaplain (Reel 6040; 4/400 pp.21-2)
1821 Jan 10
The child reported to have a father-in-law and mother alive and not object for Male Orphan Institution (Reel 6040; 4/400 p.24)

I'm fairly certain that the expression "father in law" was not as strictly meant in those times as say it would today. It could indicate a step relationship or, perhaps an informal adoption... The child was not eligible for the orphanage, (or so Robert Cooper seems to have claimed) so where did that child grow up, and with whom.... his mother and father in law perhaps.. I have YET to find Ann Thomas AFTER 1820 .... :D and err.... what year do we find CCMcN's name first appearing ... err AFTER 1820 , yes we have Thomas Ransom with a WIFE earlier, but NOT with a name...

Could the son be the one registered in 1817, or the one in 1815... not sure, but those ladschristenings are at NSW BDM online, and no father's name appears in that index...

Its just a thought, and could be a red herring, but ... there's also convict, Ann Thomas or Smallman who was in VDL last noted on the 1822 list, (Sorrell's list). She arrived VDL on that 1814 voyage of the Kangaroo....

So was CCmcN known to AT or perhaps previously known as AT or perhaps tis just a red herring. Not sure, but I thought I should let you know where I was at re looking for C N of the branded cattle fame !
Cheers, JM EDITING TO ADD, AND I SEEM TO REMEMBER THAT CATHARINE WAS NOT FOUND IN 1822 MUSTER ....

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Thursday 17 December 09 10:33 GMT (UK)

well researched JM. Certainly worth pursuing.

Does Ann Thomas show up on the 1822 muster ???

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 17 December 09 10:48 GMT (UK)

Hi all,

I think that Ann Thomas may be on the 1822 list... but perhaps under surname SMALLMAN ... not sure... see these index references off the Col Sec papers... I have not got to Sydney yet to check what's on the reels... and could be months before I can get there. notice the 1822 reference to SORRELL's list and also the 1814 request to marry (a possible impediment ;)) and the Kangaroo trip to the Derwent... what was ship that took Thomas Ransom to VDL ... ::) and no application made for Cert of Freedom ;)

SMALLMAN, Ann (Per "Canada", 1810) see THOMAS, Ann

SMALLMAN, Ann. Per "Lord Wellington", 1820
1820 Aug 22 On list of female convicts embarked on "Princess Charlotte" for the public service in Van Diemen's Land (Reel 6007; 4/3502 p.217)
and
THOMAS, Ann
1820 Jul Petition of Robert Cooper on behalf of son of Ann Thomas, to the Male Orphan Institution, referred to Magistrate or Chaplain (Reel 6040; 4/400 p.21)
and
THOMAS, Ann or SMALLMAN. Per "Canada", 1810
1812 Aug 26 Re permission to marry John Williams at Hawkesbury (Reel 6002; 4/3491 p.320)
1814 Aug 16To be conveyed to the Derwent per "Kangaroo" (Reel 6004; 4/3493 p.244)
1814 Aug 16On list of convicts embarked on board the "Kangaroo" for Hobart (Reel 6004; 4/3493 p.250)
1822 Aug 2
Allowed to come from Hobart per "Emerald" to join the family of Mrs Thornton as a servant. Re her failure to apply for a certificate of freedom (Reel 6009; 4/3506 p.118)
1822 Sep 18 On list of convicts in Van Diemen's Land, as called for by Lieutenant Governor Sorell (Reel 6009; 4/3506 p.297)

Cheers JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 17 December 09 11:12 GMT (UK)

Hi All,

I've been re-reading MOI notes, and the Ann Thomas on the Canada in 1810 was sentenced to Life... wait for it, the trial was in Glamorgan... in March 1809... so tried in WALES and sent to New South Wales... then onto VDL several years later...

From the INDEX of Col Secretary's papers, I suspect there's TWO lasses carrying convictions, and who were named Ann Thomas, but without access to the reels, its still a "cloudy" issue ...

Cheers,

JM

Adding, that's as far as I have progressed with that searchings on Ann Thomas and/or Smallman v CCMcN (or C N for short !)

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 18 January 10 10:19 GMT (UK)

Hi All, Happy New Year!

Been a long time . . .

Considering ALL that has gone before I hardly like to admit this - after ALL THIS TIME! I was reading and re-reading all the info that has been gathered for my 'thesis' on Thomas 2 when what should I re-read about Thomas 1, but a letter written by him, in October 1824, to Lieut. Gov. Arthur re the lack of licence renewal - " . . .I further beg leave to state to your Honour, that the obstacle which has been the occasion of the licences being suspended (lack of marriage) has existed nearly 11 years and in consequence of it being out of my power to remedy I have employed workmen and am preparing . . ."[/color]
Now folks - what we are concentrating on here is, not whose fault it was about being unable to remedy the fact, - we are concentrating on the 11 years!.

This has really put the cat among the pigeons because it takes the date back to early 1814 for Catharine Christina to pal up with Thomas. - Say early 1814 when Kangaroo arrived in Sydney from N.I.

I've been looking for the record of John McNally birth in Sydney in 1811 - you know the one born to Catharine and John McNally and it doesn't say whether his father, John, was a convict. So my new scenario is that Catharine slipped away from John and came south with Thomas on the Kangaroo in 1814 - (though she must have stowed away because that scene has been pretty closely investigated by one and all. :D) This same John Jnr ends up in the Sydney muster in 1822 you may remember with Ann Clemens -

How about if he was in Sydney all the time and Catharine (who was actually known as Christina from all I have gleaned - or Mrs Ransom ;)) left him there?? How about if the John McNally who came south with John Cummings was a different John McNally - the convict John per Boddingtons. There were several John McNallys we've discovered haven't we!

Just thought I throw a little mud into the already very cloudy waters.

Not expecting miracles doncha know but . . . Why didn't this bit of info register before ? - I don't know!!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 19 January 10 00:26 GMT (UK)

Wiggy,

WOW

A date to really focus on at last :o

This really narrows things down a lot and the team may get stuck in again.

Still lost for words :o

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 24 January 10 11:27 GMT (UK)

Yep, Robyn's not the only one LOST FOR WORDS ;D ;D ;D

Moi lost for words too.... Wiggy, seems to me this could be the bestest clue yet! Can you give a date for arival of Thomas to VDL? ... ie month, not just year please.... I know its been mentioned before (either on the old thread or this one, but there's over 40 RChat pages to read over again).... I will try to make spare time to help again ;)

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Sunday 24 January 10 20:15 GMT (UK)

Hi 'Girls',

Well, I think they left Norfolk Island in Feb/March, took a couple of months break in Sydney and arrived in VDL about May/June 1814. This is from memory but about right. Came all the way per 'Kangaroo' with Captain Jeffreys (Jeffries). I'll have to go back and look myself.

Don't burst your boilers on this - it has all been researched so many times - but I can't get over the fact that I didn't take in this vital bit of info earlier!! Funny how things slip through isn't it. Ho Hum!! Fascinating stuff but other life goes on! Wouldn't it be wonderful to get to the essence of the story!!

Wiggy
Edit - Set out in may but turned back - actually arrived in Hobart in August according to CSL

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 24 January 10 22:40 GMT (UK)

Just postulating,

perhaps the "obstacle" occured in that period between May and August 1814?

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 24 January 10 23:38 GMT (UK)

Umm,

I seem to recall finding a website with info on transcripts of NI headstones, and wondering if Catharine was perhaps a daughter of one of those who was buried at NI......

Also, wondering if Thomas' letter to Gov. Arthur indicates that Thomas had married someone (other than Catharine) in abt 1814....

Errrrrrrrrr, Wiggy, re Thomas' letter of October 1824, does Thomas write "lack of marriage" or is that something added later.... and errrrrr..... does the letter show 11 or eleven..... ie numbers or words..... if numbers, is it definitely "11" or could it be "4" or "7" or a mark coming through the ink "bleeding" through age etc....

Is the letter available online? ....

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 25 January 10 02:06 GMT (UK)

I haven't seen the original letter - I have only the transcript from a fellow relation's research and he has written 11 - so don't know the answer to that question JM.

What we have found is a Catharine born in Sydney to Archibald and Christiana Morrison in 1791 - or 3 - I'll have to check again. Same relative found the reference in a book called 'Born in the English Colony of New South Wales 1788-1800. Archie was a soldier. Not sure if that will wash yet - but it may fit. Archie went home in 1809 - could his daughter have stayed, married (defacto or otherwise) John McNally and had John in 1811 then left him and taken off with Thomas when he passed through Sydney? ??? - (all wonderful supposition at this stage. She doesn't appear in the musters - but then she was excellent at evading them - that is one thing we've found out as you well know.) See back to the 6th/7th last entry re young John.

I added the (lack of marriage) and tried to make it another colour so you'd know - but failed. I know I know - too much supposition not enough hard evidence - where Catharine is concerned hard evidence is hard to come by - get the pun!

Cheers

Wiggy.
Edit to read 1793 birth in Sydney.

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Monday 25 January 10 03:34 GMT (UK)

Nice theory,

I agree that if the relationship did originate in 1914, and given the good character and esteem both McNally and Ransom seem to have held within the very small confines of the Hobart town community I would like to suggest the following

(probably not proveable :-\)

Ransom travelled from NI to PJ in May 1814. all agree?

A son was born to Catharine and John Macanalty

Quote

V1811233 5/1811 and V18112491 1A/1811 NSW BDM

Perhaps Ransom was a lodger in their household (he had to have been staying somewhere). Most homes took paying guests to supplement their meagre incomes.

We all know how domestic violence is a tragic part of modern life and I am sure it was the same in 1814.

Ransom may have been a knight in shining armour and rescued McNally from a violent relationship, perhaps even assaulting John Macanulty/McNally. Their initial realtionship may mereley have been that of victim and protector.

There may well have been only a public verbal altercation, which would be enough to set prying eyes and ears and wagging tongues on full alert. Society would have been quick to condemn and flight by both to Hobart a real escape in more ways than one.

This theory offers reasons for

Even the newspaper reports in Hobart which were reasonably sypmathetic seem to refer to her a Mrs Ransom.

Nice little theory but no proof, unless a report can be found in court recors or newspapers of that period. :-\

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 25 January 10 03:59 GMT (UK)

Robyn, I like it!!

But, point 1, the reason for the delay is that the Kangaroo was kept in NSW for a while and Cap't Jeffreys failed to sail in May due to the weather - it was he who brought them from NI and he was taking them on (CSL indexes)- records of his journeys seem to be fraught with delays!! He seems to be a past 'master' at not getting there on time! - wherever 'there' is! ;)

For the rest . . .I'll buy it - until anything more substantial comes along! We can find the birth of John Jnr but not marriage of Catharine and John Snr - so it may not have been 'solemnized' leaving either her or Thomas to have the 'obstacle' - but for my money, that isn't really the point at this time.

You can have 9/10 for that reasoning (at the moment!!) - The date I gave you - does make Catharine a few years younger than she said she was - but what is a few years between friends! may not be correct but not bad! And when you think of how many 'Cartland' stories have been put forward on this thread, yours is no more 'way out' than others!! Less in fact!

Wiggy
- full of admiration!! I might have to change my mind if something better comes along! ;D

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Monday 25 January 10 04:14 GMT (UK)

Wiggy,

As I said nice theory.

It's hard to put together a good theory to cover what we have discovered re their characters etc. (I dare say with some creative thinking I could add the idea that Mcanalty ended up in the asylum after the altercation 8))

However the theory overlooks the fact that John McNally and advertised tin 1816 that he and his wife were heading south
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?searchTerm=mcnally&textSearchScope=full&facet=decade:1810-1820

However perhaps the Ransom McNally relationship began with him acting as a protector in 1814 as I theorised, but she stayed with her spouse, society being what it was, and only left him subsequently :-* when away from the prying eyes ears etc of Sydney.

Still fits but not quite as romantic.

Also found on NLA site
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/628863?searchTerm=ransom
an advert advising that there were lettewrs waitng collection for Thomas Ransom (February19. 1814) Love to know if he collected them and what was in them and if it was for your Thomas.

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 25 January 10 05:14 GMT (UK)

Robyn,

I've got the distinct impression that there was more than one John McNally - there was John brother of James, both of whom were a convicts - and that John is the one with Mr Cummings - (per Boddington) Then there is John the sealer, I think that's the one I've just been looking at - John Macanally who was leaving in 1811 (which would fit nicely with the John born that year) on the Perseverance (with Catherine Rook - remember her? :D) Isn't that how the birth notice in Sydney was spelt? - Can't remember this minute. He was on another ship earlier with William Rooke! Remember?!

I reckon the father of John in Sydney may well have been the other John - not the one going south with the Cummings, but one going sealing. That's just my feeling! Also in hunting round Tasmania, there seems to be more than one John McNally in Tassie! One in Launceston and one in the south, for starters.

So yes I accept your reservations - but . . . don't let that spoil a good theory!

Just been trailing round the Sydney papers and what I have found it that there was a letter for Thomas waiting for him in 1814 in Sydney and he was giving notice of his intention to leave for the south west in May 1814! Leaving at the same as Thomas was a woman named Hannah - no Catharines! Worth the look!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Monday 25 January 10 06:11 GMT (UK)

Wiggy,

did you note that Archibald Morrison's wife'same was given as CHristiana in one of the birth entries the one for Margaret

Quote

V1798516 4/1798

Wow :o

need to re read re Overend/McNalty to remind me why we ruled this lass out.

I know 1814 again :-\

Quote

Bryan Overhand was dismissed as Captain of Lady Nelson in 1814 for helping convicts to abscond and signed on the Emu which sank in 1815 in Cape Town.

from avclem july 2009 post number 45

and then this to rule her out again from davclem post 99 in July 2009.

Quote

The current thinking is that the Catherine McNally associated with Thomas Ransom in VDL from 1820 onwards is not the Catherine McNally who married Bryan Overhand in Sydney in 1810, (NSW BMD), because the NSW 1828 Census shows Catherine Overand 40 ish (per Sydney Cove 1807) in Sydney.

So I won't go there 8)
Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 25 January 10 06:32 GMT (UK)

Good!! Dont!!

Wiggy :D

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Monday 25 January 10 07:35 GMT (UK)

It's getting hard to keep everything in mind ::)

Posted the references do othrs can refereh without re reading both threads. :o

All said, 184 seems to be the critical year we need to focus on.

Probably need to work out a time line of persons and events for that year.

What do you think of "M'Niele" as a variation for McNAlly? here:
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/628877?searchTerm= person leaving the colony 19 March 1814

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 25 January 10 09:20 GMT (UK)

We-ell - to be honest, not alot! Mostly because it is J McNeile - I mean it 'sounds' similar doesn't it, but . . .
are you are suggesting John might be off somewhere - Hmmmm - thinking!

It is a good idea to work out a time line - but we have Thomas going off sometime after May, and Catharine out of view (as usual) - so who else do we have to put in the frame. Let's face it - Catharine seems to spend her whole life pretty well out of view! By the way, in all the considerable research I've done in the last few months, it seems she went by the name of Christina - only seems to be Catharine for formal things like registering birth of T2, and in T1's will. Interesting! She even gave witness statement (in the court case last thread) as Christina.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Monday 25 January 10 22:12 GMT (UK)

Wiggy,

That is a great fnd in reveiwing your material.

That is interesting as we have never really looked at person named Christina in depth.

Will have a long think and start exploring.

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 25 January 10 22:51 GMT (UK)

Hi there,

Re: Catharine Christina's maiden name and Thomas Ransom's Oct 1824 letter to Gov Arthur " . . .I further beg leave to state to your Honour, that the obstacle which has been the occasion of the licences being suspended has existed nearly 11 years and in consequence of it being out of my power to remedy I have employed workmen and am preparing . . ."

1. It was not within Thomas' power to remedy.
2. Thomas died Feb 1829, with Catharine Christina as the beneficiary.
3. Catharine married Von S in Jan 1830, ie less than twelve months after Thomas' death .....

Was it Thomas Ransom who encumbered himself in about 1814 ... (read Wiggy's transcript of his Oct 1824 letter)... Apart from a marriage, what other actions could encumber a person IN THOSE TIMES? I'm not sure, but perhaps the answer could be found if we had copies of the licencing rules/regulations etc for obtaining a licence to operate a public house in VDL in 1824 and comparied with any variations to earlier regulations (ie what regulations operated in VDL in say 1814, 1820, and 1824 and etc).

Perhaps the encumberance was simply that Gov Arthur would NOT approve licences to former convicts, even those holding a full pardons (ie both licences to operate a public house, .... licence to marry, etc) ... Don't overlook that Thomas was not just a former convict, but that in VDL he had been appointed a fairly senior Government Building Supervisor etc. during the time that Gov Macquarie was the "enlightened" Gov of NSW INCLUDING VDL....

Is/are Thomas/Catharine ever mentioned in the Bigges reports?

I think it is entirely possible that MCNALLY was her birth name, and remind you all that HER cattle were branded C N (not C R, not C M, but C N).

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Tuesday 26 January 10 02:45 GMT (UK)

Hi JM,

Re cattle brands - there is another stray cow in the same ad which is branded T R also Mrs Ransom's - so maybe she bought the C N cow from someone else - or maybe someone else had already used the brand C M so she had to choose another - like when you are making an email address and someone else has your preferred name!!!

I think Thomas had the impediment - but I am more inclined to think he was honouring his marriage in England. However Christina could have been married in Sydney and her husband could have died at about the same time as Thomas - i.e. John the sealer! Maybe??!

Not sure I agree re the licences - he'd already held licences for years - just that Gov. Arthur didn't want people 'living in sin' to hold licences!! That's how I read the long epistle, signed "A Colonist", in the Hobart paper on 3rd June 1825. Not only that but he then was granted licence to trade at Green Ponds - still without marrying Christina.

Will have to search out Bigges Reports!

Wiggy Gotta go!

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 27 January 10 03:09 GMT (UK)

I agree Wiggy,

Plenty of ex con's ran pubs across NSW so Ransom was not unique in this.

Still thinking 8) ??? but the impediment must have
1: had the power of law behind it >:(
2: be known to those in official postitions and prying eyes etc never stated in a public document/press etc WHY? ???
3. began in 1814 so not his earlier marriage in England UNLESS his wife arrived in Australia ::) interesting thought ::)

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 27 January 10 11:15 GMT (UK)

Umm,

Gov Arthur arrived VDL 1824, and his Calvinist beliefs may well have influenced his re-visiting of the annual licences for publicans.

As I understand it, Green Ponds would have been "out of sight" of the regulars in Hobart Town, thus a Country Licence was available for Thomas Ransom.

VDL became a separate colony in 1825, so Gov Arthur would have been in a position to put in place his own interpretations and/or regulations for administraton of Licquor Licences etc. What were the regulations BEFORE Gov Arthur's administration took over, and also what Bigge's reports said about the regulations when he inspected VDL in circa Feb - March 1820.

I have just re-read Thomas Ransom's will ONLINE, and he makes no attempt to explain his relationship to Catharine Christina McNally or to "her son" Thomas McNally. I note that this will was found by C C 22 November 1829, ie during her courtship with Von S. Also, there's no mention of "her daughter" Ann Ransom. If Thomas Ransom had a wife surely that wife ought to have benefited .... That's a very long delay between Thomas Ransom dying and Catharine finding his Will. Long enough for Catharine to have waited to see if anyone made a claim on Thomas' considerable estate before finding the will ....

I agree with Robyn, I don't see that Thomas' English marriage would have been the impediment of eleven years standing in that letter to Gov Arthur. If the wife was in Australia, then she would have made a claim on that estate.... or if she preceded Thomas, surely there would have been a RANSOM = McNALLY marriage...... ::)

PS I am of the opinion that the brand C N is "N" for NALLY, Mc; I would not expect to see it as C M.

The Points Robyn makes about the impediment (1, power of the law,; 2 known to officials and prying eyes but NOT in the public domain and 3 began in 1814 are worth following up.

Wiggy, can you get hold of the document that the transcript was based on ?

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Friday 29 January 10 09:07 GMT (UK)

What Transcript JM?

Re the will, Catharine proved the will in November - I know from proving my own fathers will that it takes a long time - she knew the will was there - he made it only 6 days before his death. I have the will and the signature of Mr Pedder who proved it! Do you use 'Finding' in the sense of proving?? I've not heard it said like that before.

Going on holidays now folks - you may find whatever you can in the next week or so!!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Friday 29 January 10 10:10 GMT (UK)

Hi Wiggy,

Re "Transcript" ... as in the letter from Thomas to Gov Arthur, and the "11" years... can you get the original document (or a copy of the original) that your copy of the transcript was transcribed from ;)

Re "Finding" Thomas' will. Catharine did not lodge the will for its proving until 22 November 1829. Thomas had been dead for near ten months. At least that's how I understand the notation on the lower section of page 2 of the online record. The following is my transcription of the paragraph that to me MAY (and of course may not) mean she did not "find" (locate) the will for many months.

This will was proved by Catharine Christina McNally the Executrix therein named on Friday 22 November One thousand Eight hundred and Twenty-nine before His Honor Chief Justice Pedder. And probate was granted to the said Executrix, hearing date the 27th day of November aforesaid.

That is, Catharine sought to have the will proved on 22 Nov, and the legal system took 3 working days to grant her request. I'm amazed that she did NOT seek to have it proved within the weeks after Thomas died. I seem to recall that she had legal issues regarding taking over Thomas' licence ... I would have expected her to use the granting of Probate as evidence of her entitlement to continue to operate a public house. It seems to me that what happened is vice versa. So I am offering the suggestion that the IMPEDIMENT of 11 years standing ie of 1814, may well be a VDL marriage of Thomas to someone other than Catharine, and that Catharine waited to see if anyone stepped forward before "finding" this will during her own courtship by Fred Von S.

Enjoy your Holidays.

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Friday 29 January 10 11:04 GMT (UK)

oh that transcript! Have sent for and am awaiting copy of letters from AOT. Should be here sooner or later!

Well, I took my father's will to be proved and that was after I'd done all the carry on first - OK so there were less people around in 1829 but Thomas had a lot of property. (In my case the proving took only a few days - the getting everything ready first took months, and he didn't have much property to worry about!- I am just judging from my own experience as I did it all myself.) I dunno - that's just how I read it.

The lease for the inn was transferred to Catharine/Christina on 21 March 1829 - so no trouble there apparently.

Cheers!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 31 January 10 00:30 GMT (UK)

Wiggy and others,
Had a PM from Wiggy and said I would post my respnse to it here for your feed back:

Quote from: WiggyHobbes08

What if CC McN was a camp follower of some regiment!

When you think about armies and their camp followers in Napoleonic time (which is what we are talking about), the C.F. never rate a name - but they are there - they are just invisible and nameless, there for the use of . . .!

WHAT IF Catherine arrived in Hobart as one such and set up a tavern for the cheer of the regiment - then she gets mighty tired of that life and when this nice older guy puts up in her tavern, she and he hit if off - so to speak. He in need of a good woman and stability - she in need of stability and ONE good man!

It is quite plausible re her being a camp follower and this would tie in with her having been in the Carribean and as you say and as I know from my own research they were recorded as numbers not individuals.

However re her having a pub I am not so sure, you would expect to find some references to her establishment in the papers and govt records at the very least.

She could well have been left behind after having had a child/miscarriage/other illness and not being well enough to travel on with the regiment. She may well have been married (wives were still just numbers in the records as I have seen in a copy of one shipping manifest that I have.

Quote

"x" wives and children

So 1814 could be the date that her husbands regiment moved on from either Port Jackson, Norfolk Island or Hobart leaving her behind. Therefore she is not free to wed. Neither she nor Thomas have any control over the event and they can do nothing to change their situations.

Steiglitz may well not have known about her earlier marriage etc and so she felt free to marry him and there was no public outcry at that time, the "prying eyes" and govt officals who knew the impediment must have been back in England again with their regiments or having served out the time of their postings.

So two theroies to be worked over :-\

RObyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Monday 01 February 10 22:06 GMT (UK)

Re wiggy's post 287- "the obstacle which has been the occasion of the licences being suspended has existed nearly 11 years "

So, in 1814,something happened to prevent Thomas and Catharine getting married between 1814-1825, and subsequently between 1825-1829, but that 'obstacle' did not prevent Catharine from marrying FL Stiiegltz in 1830.

Catharine used the name McNally in all legal documents- birth of Thomas 1820, will of Thomas 1829 and marriage to Fred in 1830- she was either born McNally or married a McNally .

If she married a McNally, and that was the obstacle of 11 years, she married him in 1814, and they must have seperated between 1814-1819( when she is the 'wife' of Thomas Ransom in the 1819 Muster in VDL).She does not appear in any VDL records between 1814-1819, suggesting she only reached Hobart, as Mcnally ( either married or maiden name), in 1819, and was not cohabiting with Thomas 1814-1819.

The obstacle ceased by 1830- either McNally(if there was a husband McNally) died in 1829, or the obstacle was with Thomas who died in 1829. Thomas left Norfolk Island and went to VDL in 1814-did he get married in the time he spent in Sydney in 1814 waiting to go to VDL, and did he desert his new wife? Was Thomas the obstacle?

As a different issue and just to introduce another hare, remembering Jane Spencer (nee Smith) in 1825 , how about SPENCER, Ann. Per "Maria", 1818 Sep 26, convict transhipped from the "Maria" to the "Elizabeth Henrietta" and forwarded to Hobart; with child (Reel 6006; 4/3499 p.89).

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 01 February 10 23:07 GMT (UK)

Hi there,

Re that obstacle dating from circa 1814.

Perhaps details of that obstacle were contained in a letter that arrived in Sydney in Feb 1814 ;D There's a notice in the Sydney Gazette of Feb 19, 1814 from the Post Master re letters awaiting collection from several vessels for (among others) Mr. Thomas Ransom ....

Re the VDL Muster of 1819 where Thomas is shown to have a wife.

That record really does not confirm that the wife was Wiggy's Catharine, it is simply convenient to presume it would be Catharine as it perhaps "fits" the possible scenerio! I again note that Thomas' will makes no provision for Catharine's daughter, and that the will refers to Catharine's son as "her son" .... NOT as "my son"....

I seem to recall that the birth record for Thomas McNally (son of Catharine) is only a submitted record.... Is it possible to find out WHEN it was first submitted and if there is any independent confirmation of those details....

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Tuesday 02 February 10 01:01 GMT (UK)

JM,

Good point about the letter awaiting Thomas in 1814- we are never going to know the contents, but a slim circumstancial possible indication that the obstacle might have been with Thomas, not Catharine.

I am open to the suggestion that Thomas 1820 is not the son of Thomas 1741, but have believed on the balance of probability that the 1819 wife is Catharine- the implications of the 1825 issue is that of a long association between them, and not just a couple of yearsor so.

However, (Wiggy) , do we have any record that links Thomas Ransom with Catharine McNally in the Joiners Arms (No 1 Murray Street per Jane Spencer records) before 1823 ( donating to the Wesleyans, wasn't it) by either linking their names in the same record or referring to her as Mrs Ransom.

It would certainly reflect better on Catharine (?) if she had Thomas McNally1820 before being involved in a personal relationship with Thomas Ransom ( even if she was working for /with him before that), than if she were the wife in 1819 but had Thomas 1820 by an unknown father- who was obviously not a McNally or the father would have been named on the registration. Pity Brady didn't arrive early in 1820!!

When did "Mrs Ransom' first appear in the record?

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 02 February 10 02:08 GMT (UK)

I wonder ::) ::) ::)

Did Thomas Ransom's wife arrive in the colonies following the letter in 1814 :-\

She may well have come out and I don't think that we have checked to see if she did or even if she is in the musters.

Fanatasy here but could Catharine really have been his daughter from that marriage ::)

Obvious impediment to their marriage :P which was absolved by his death. We have no proof on teh status of their relationship do we :-X This brings us back to the fact that Thomas McNally later Ransom may infact have been his grandchild and as been hinted at before that Ann was an adopted child.

I am ready to be shot down in flames by all and sundry.

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Tuesday 02 February 10 02:45 GMT (UK)

Hi Robyn,

If Thomas' wife came out, then that could be her in the 1819 Muster, but she's not listed (at least not with Thomas) on the 1820 muster where Thomas' transportation is noted, as is his pardon, and his "settler" status. Catharine's not found on the 1820 Muster either....

Of course if Catharine was Thomas' daughter/daughter in law/step daughter etc, yes, those are obviously impediments ;) Catharine may have been his daughter (if so then she was born earlier than Wiggy suspects), who had at one time married a McNally, (perhaps a garrison soldier), the McNally couple arrive VDL where Catharine finally catches up with her Dad, and when the regiment goes off to its next tour of duty, Catharine stays with her Dad.

That would explain why she was referred to as Mrs Ransom. Ransom would be her maiden name, and "Mrs" would be the title indicating she had children. It would not be Mrs Ransom, "wife" of Thomas. It would also be another reason why Thomas' will does not get challenged when Catharine seeks its probate, and would also be a simple explanation as to why Catharine's son was willing/interested in being known as Thomas Ransom rather than as Thomas McNally ;D

Remembering:
Thomas made the will in Jan 1829, Thomas died Feb 1829, Catharine called to front the Justices re her suitability as a licencee in April 1829, Catharine granted licence in Oct 1829, Catharine sought and was granted probate Nov 1829, Catharine's cattle straying in Dec 1829, Catharine married Frederick in Jan 1830....

PS, no mention in my records of the 48th Reg (in VDL circa 1817-1824) of McNALLY... closest are McAuley Private Peter, and McAuley, Sargeant John. I would need to re-read Clem Sargent's book "The Colonial Garrison 1817-1824) to see if those two were ever in VDL....

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 02 February 10 03:12 GMT (UK)

Except for the age factor (and we forget how young some girls were when they were married off back then) then it does fit with the KNOWN facts.

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Tuesday 02 February 10 06:17 GMT (UK)

Nah, Robyn, you're on the ball- but Catharine as Thomas daughter has come up before- I think we've all thought that would be a very tidy solution.

The 1814 date for the obstacle and the hpothesis that Thomas received a letter from Elizabeth Ransom (Durrell?) at that time could add weight to the theory. The letter presumably being advice that daughter Catharine was on way, either as free woman or as convict. If Elizabeth, the original Mrs Ransom, was on the way, then she must have died on voyage, never left, died on arrival or met someone else, otherwise she would have appeared in Hobart as Mrs Ransom, and none of this thread would have been needed.

If Catharine was Thomas 'daughter, she was either conceived during a nuptial visit by Elizabeth to the gaol/hulk just before Thomas left in 1788/89, to be born in 1790/91 , "Hi Thomas, long time no see, Guess what", or Catharine was born before 1787 .

If she was his daughter, she was Catharine Ransom, not Catharine McNally, unless she had married a McNally, in which case was was the widow mcNally.

If she was his daughter, she would have been acknowledged as such, as Mrs McNally or Miss Ransom, and everybody would have known she was Thomas' daughter.

She would have been named as Thomas's daughter in his will, not as his friend.

I think that there are too many strikes to run with it- but it sure is a tempting idea!

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Tuesday 02 February 10 06:22 GMT (UK)

JM,

Re McAuley- I think(!) I mentioned him in the first thread, following up settlers who came out on the Calcutta- Sgt Mcauley details are in the thread somewhere.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 02 February 10 07:10 GMT (UK)

Knew it was too good to be true but worth revisiting.

Of course she could also have been his wife's child from a later relationship :o

This info could have been in the leter and it doen't preclude her from
1) being a camp follower using her real father's name :-\
2) a soldiers wife McNally(or variant) :-\
3) a free settler married to a McNally(or variant) :-\

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Tuesday 02 February 10 07:15 GMT (UK)

Errr..........

Could either of you please re-read the will, I've not found where she was referred to as Thomas' friend in that document....

Errrrrr...........
I've lots of "evidence" from around the 1820's in penal NSW that indicates that women with young children were known as "Mrs" regardless of their maritial status, and in many instances they were Mrs "XYZ", where "XYZ" was the surname of the head of the household without regard for the surnames of the children's father/s.

Thanks

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Tuesday 02 February 10 07:41 GMT (UK)

Errr.........

The 1819 Muster where Thomas RANSOM has a wife ... just wondering .... why is this being favoured as being evidence for Catharine Christina McNally when it could well be the very IMPEDIMENT that we have all been searching for ... it seems to me that it is simply evidence that Thomas had a WIFE who was living with him.

The earliest date for "Mrs Ransom" being used in print seems to be 1823.

Has anyone actually checked and found the original of (or film of) the parish records for the birth of Thomas McNally... I have posed that question several times back on the old thread... Can't see where that was answered, rather there was a long discussion about SUBMITTED records being lodged with the Tasmanian Archives.... Consequently I again note that Thomas McNally is NOT listed on the 1822 muster, nor is Catharine Christina, nor is Ann !

It could well be that Catharine arrived on Thomas Ransom's doorstep with two children at some date after the 1822 muster and said "Look Dad, I'm your long lost daughter, and look, here's two grandchildren for you" I'm NOT convinced that anyone has made the case for the view that Catharine was with Thomas Ransom BEFORE Thomas McNally was born....

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Tuesday 02 February 10 08:38 GMT (UK)

I agree we have just assumed that Catharine was the wife in the muster. But that is all it is an assumption particularly as she is un named.

I know we are right back at the very starting point suggestin that it was not marital relationship but we have looked at so many other scenarios without really digging deeply into father/daughter/grandhildren relationship.

Of course local society may not have known that she was his daughter but surely the age difference would have had tongues wagging like mad, particularly after Thomas was born and remember that he was never acknowleged, not even in the will, as Thomas Ransom's son.

It could well be that he did meet up with her in Sydney after getting the letter and this may also explain the delay in getting to Hobart. At this distance in time there are so many possible theories none provable or unprovable all psooible.

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Tuesday 02 February 10 10:04 GMT (UK)

Robyn,
The delay in getting to Hobart on the Kangaroo in 1814 was due to the strange navigational behavour of the Captain, Lieutenant Jeffries, not to any delay by Thomas in embarking .

JM is right, so far no record of a "Mrs Ransom" before 1823 (pending correction by Wiggs), and the earliest record of CC McNally is 1820, and the 1819 "wife" is unidentified. Were these 3 different women, Thomas as a colonial Bluebeard, or the same person, that is the question ?

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Tuesday 02 February 10 10:47 GMT (UK)

The 1818 Muster of Free Women Hobart Town 1818 lists 16 Catharines. The maiden name of 5 of them is given, and the Spouse name is stated for 8 of them. The 5 with no stated spouse and with no given maiden name are:

Brown- she is not listed as such in the 1822 Muster of Women
Crahan- still listed in 1822-born in colony
McGwire- not listed as such in 1822
Murphy- still listed in 1822- free by servitude- arrived 1791 per ‘Active’
O’Brien- still listed 1822-tried 1812 Armagh-arrived 1814per Catherine-free by servitude

Brown and Mc Guire could have married, died or vanished, but why should either of them have adopted the name Mcnally? Crahan, Murphy and O’Brien are still known as such in 1822. So a free woman Catharine Mcnally is not listed or known as such in Hobart in 1818, but in late 1820 a woman known as Catharine McNally registered a birth of Thomas Mcnally.

Ergo- 1818 records are not complete,or Catharine McNally did not live in Hobart in 1818, or she was not a free woman, or she arrived in Hobart between 1819-1820.

Just thought I would share that with you all!

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Tuesday 02 February 10 23:41 GMT (UK)

Hi there,

Errrrrrr.........

Quote from: davclem on Tuesday 02 February 10 10:47 GMT (UK)

.............. but in late 1820 a woman known as Catharine McNally registered a birth of Thomas Mcnally..........

Just a cautionary thought ! Surely David, you are referring to a baptismal record rather than a birth registration....

a) Does that baptismal record state that Thomas was born in Hobart Town .....
b) Was that baptismal record in fact a submitted record to the Tasmanian Archives
c) What was the name of the officiating minister, and has his movements in VDL been traced ... ie was he in other districts in VDL in late 1820
d) If the baptismal record is based on Parish Records, what are the details for the baptisms immediately before and immediately after the one for Thomas....
e) Does the record show that the baptism occured in 1820, ie was Thomas born in 1820 but his baptism occurred in perhaps 1829 (easy to misread the "zero" when it could be a "nine",) ie was the baptism for Thomas conducted in December 1829, just before his mum was married to Fred.... ;)

Perhaps those answers may help in determining where was Catharine Christina McNally in 1820.... but I'm not yet convinced that she was in Hobart Town in 1820 at all....

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 03 February 10 00:31 GMT (UK)

JM,

Wiggy's Post 256 says " his mother is definitely Catharine McNally - I have the birth registration from the records. Born November 1820, baptised Dec. 1820."

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 February 10 01:24 GMT (UK)

Hi David,

Please, do you know what records are available for birth registrations for the year 1820 in VDL.

Also, do you hold a copy of Thomas' Baptismal record .... ;)

It's not my intention to be so pedantic, but there's 26 pages on the first thread, and now 22 pages on this thread, and we seem to be going round and round in circles, possibly because we are trying to prove that Catharine and Thomas and Ann were in Hobart in Nov and Dec 1820. It occurs to me that those three may well have arrived at Mr Ransom's LATER than 1820, later even than the General Muster for 1822...

Has anyone checked on that clue back on the old thread where I noted that a Constable AMOS had a police diary and was involved in taking details for the 1823 muster ....

I'm not convinced that the expression "many years" (used in 1825) would indicate 1820 or earlier .... "many" may well have had a similar meaning to "several"...

48 pages of seeking info about Catharine Christina McNally, .... and no positive sightings before the birth of her son, Thomas, so I would have expected that this baptismal record to be a central pivotal document that had been scrutinised and authenticated and checked and checked and checked ... every aspect of that baptismal document ..

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 February 10 02:10 GMT (UK)

Umm,

Earlier on this thread there's mention of the possible link to MORRISON and a 1793 birth in NSW.

Has anyone obtained the baptismal records for the following lass whose mother's first name seems to be Christiane or Christine:

MORRISON, Kate, daughter of Archibald and Christiane (or Archabald and Christine)
The NSW BDM online index has TWO references, V1793270 1A/1793 and V179362 148/1793 ;

I would recommend checking out both those references, as one would most likely be regimental records, while the other would seem to be Parish records... And of course, both entries should be available on film at the NSW State Library, but copies of the transcripts of the NSW BDM entries can be obtained from NSW transcript agents and sent by email .... for around $30 or less.

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 03 February 10 02:42 GMT (UK)

this is when I regret not living in a capitol city!

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 February 10 02:58 GMT (UK)

Hi Robyn,

Yep, so I wish I could get to Sydney and to the Library .... I've even spotted a NSW baptism of a Catherine Morrison daughter of Archibald and Christiana ... V1801992 1A/1801 and she's probably same lass as Cathrine V1801694 4/1801

To me, this MORRISON family would be as likely a family for Catharine Christina McNally as any of the others mentioned on the two threads so far... And, afterall the thread is about searching for her origins ;)

I'll see if I can spot Archie or his children (I think there's 4 girls) on any of the indexes of some NSW musters.

But err... nothing beats inspecting the original (or copies of) records ...

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 February 10 03:20 GMT (UK)

Umm,

NSW 1822 General Muster has (of course, there's no way to tell from that muster if this could be daughter of Archie ... ie no way to tell if this is for a possible sister for Nally M' CC) but ....

Mary MORRISON, bc (born in the Colony) and of course nothing recorded for this lass under the heading "age"

BUT it notes "Wife of ..." hard to read, but could be:

"Wife of J CONDON"

its the first letter of his surname that's hard to read ... could be " L, " I don't think its G (no flourish below) etc ... The page seems to be bound hard, I think it says that Condon was in Sydney, Err... and of course, as an aside, this is also another example of females retaining their birth family name in those times ;D under the penal rules for NSW (Including in 1822 VDL) ....

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 03 February 10 03:35 GMT (UK)

JM,

I'll leave that one to Wiggy to answer when she resurfaces

Your questioning is quite valid-discrete facts, circumstantial evidence and negative evidence have been combined , and assumptions made that there is a connection between "wife", "McNally" and "Mrs Ransom". I have accepted and advanced that assumption, because , in the light of the subsequent evidence from 1823-1830, it appears to be an assumption with a reasonable level of probability.

However, you are correct- it needs to be proved/disproved by examination of facts and possible explanations eg the 1819 Land and Stock Muster for Van Diemens Land ( October )states Thomas Ransom , a wife and a Government Servant are on the Stores(Victualled) with Thomas holding a 400 acres land grant at Hobart. Was this a clerical error- he had no wife ?- did he have a wife who subsequently died/moved out/ left before CCM came on the scene? When did he acquire said wife?

The 1818 Free women on General Muster Hobart Town 1818 lists 328 free women ( not including Catharine McNallY), of which 206 were married. To become Mrs Ransom by October 1819 , we are left with 122 who were unmarried in 1818, plus any married women ln 1818 who were widowed during 1819, plus any blow ins to Hobart during 1819.

Some of the 122 can be elimnated by reference to the 1822 Muster- if they are still in the 1822 muster , then they couldn't have become Mrs Ransom in 1819- so we look only for those who are in the 1818 list but not the 1822 list (so excluding people such as Lucy Margaret Davey who was in the 1818 list and also the 1822 list and was the Lieut Govenors daughter). There were 45 women listed in 1818, but not in 1822- they must have died, married,moved away, or did not turn up.

Need to stop now, but would be interested in your response

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 February 10 03:56 GMT (UK)

Hi David,

At the present time, I'm leading towards Catharine giving birth to Thomas McNally outside of VDL and thus not arriving in VDL until shortly after the 1822 muster ... to me, that's the most logical reason she's not found on that 1822 Muster.

I don't think she was avoiding that muster, rather I think she was simply not in the colony...

Yes, of course, and thanks for your patience and understanding, I'm really suggesting that the baptismal record needs investigating for the dates, (could be baptism was 1829) could be that Catharine needed to prove that Thomas McNally was "her" son in the lead up to marrying Fred ... after all, both she and Thomas were beneficiaries of Thomas Ransom's will, and perhaps Fred was a lot more familiar with "property" rights and may have thought he (Fred) would become the owner of both Catharines AND ALSO Thomas' inheritance ;D. Could be Catharine was protecting "her" son....

Alas, there's no mention of Ann in that will ..., nor of the status of any relationship between Thomas Ransom and Catharine .... so far the only reference I can find to any relationship is simply of a remark in a paragraph on the Australian Dictionary of Biography.... which seems to be drawn from secondary sources anyway...

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 03 February 10 04:09 GMT (UK)

The Morrison famly need to followed up and one wonders if there was a link between Ransom and Morrison back in England.

Like Wiggy I believe if C.C. McNally is not a convict because had she been a convict lass she would have been accounted for, from her sentence through to her demise.

So we are left with possible origins:
1) Free settler as a single woman, widow or a daughter. (?Carribean fit here)
2) Soldier/marine's abandoned wife, widow, daughter. (Carribean story would fit)
3) Camp follower (unlikely due to her good reputation in VDL) (Carribean story would fit)
4) Government official's abandonded wife. (unlikely it woul dhave been in the papers)
5) Colonial born convict's child.
6) Ransom's daughter or step daughter. (Carribean story would possibly fit)

It says a lot about social attitudes of the times that free women were so often recorded merely as "Mrs So and So" or "and wife".

Quote

At the present time, I'm leading towards Catharine giving birth to Thomas McNally outside of VDL and thus not arriving in VDL until shortly after the 1822 muster ... to me, that's the most logical reason she's not found on that 1822 Muster.

Fits all the above.

modified to add
I thought Wiggy had sighted the baptismal regisration and it was in 1820 not 1829? Need her to advice on this point.
Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 03 February 10 04:13 GMT (UK)

Catherine Morrison-

WO 97/1140B Veterans Miscellaneous
ARCHIBALD MORRISON
Born INVERNESS, Inverness-shire
Served in 42nd Foot Regiment; 73rd Foot Regiment; New South Wales Veterans; 2nd Royal Veteran Battalion
Discharged aged 52
Covering dates
1778-1809

Kate born 1793 to Archibald and Christiana Morrisson in Sydney, nee Chisholm 1772 Kirkhill Inverness, married 26/11/1790 at Inverness.

He returned to England 1809- if Kate is our girl, she stayed. I think that I have trawled the 1811/1814 musters , but can't put hand on my notes at the moment. Couldn't find an obvious Tasmanian link for her but she is certainly a person of interest

Morrison Bay in Sydney named after Arch, who had grant there.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 03 February 10 04:17 GMT (UK)

The only likely link between Ransom and Arch Morrison would be if Morrison did a spell of duty on Norfolk Island. Interesting thought
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 February 10 04:23 GMT (UK)

Re MORRISON,

Don't overlook the other girls born in NSW to Archibald and Christina...

1795, Mary; 1798 Margaret; 1801 Catherine

Robyn's points are all valid too ;D

Also, David, the 73rd Foot returned to NSW/VDL for a further tour of duty .... it replaced the 48th in stages from 1821, and 1824 .... ... I guess I'd better do that re-read of Clem Sargent's book about the 48th (seven of my forebears are mentioned in that book ;D)

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 03 February 10 04:39 GMT (UK)

Interesting date for the return of the regiment, but if Morrison had taken his discharge in 1809 he is unlikely to have come back.

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 February 10 04:44 GMT (UK)

;D
Agree, Robyn, but just wondering if there was a McNally in the regiment when one section left Deptford in 1822 direct for Hobart ;D

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 February 10 05:02 GMT (UK)

Hi, Moi again ;D

IGI extracted (ie based on a volunteer transcribing parish records) ... 1 (modifying, Moi typo, its actually 2) October 1801 christening date (without noting birth date though)... Cathrine Morrison, daughter of Archibald and Christina ;D NSW C of E ....

Cheers

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Wednesday 03 February 10 05:06 GMT (UK)

Quote from: Just Moi on Wednesday 03 February 10 04:44 GMT (UK)

;D
Agree, Robyn, but just wondering if there was a McNally in the regiment when one section left Deptford in 1822 direct for Hobart ;D

Cheers, JM

thought had crossed my mind too

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 February 10 05:18 GMT (UK)

Hi,

I've had no luck finding names of the 73rd regiment for that tour of duty departing Deptford 1822 for Hobart.

But, there's IGI extracted for four girls for Archibald and Christina Morrison, so here's the four girls (all would be C of E as only denomination recognised during that era pre Rum Rebellion):

Kate, born 3 June 1793 at Parramatta, christened 16 June 1793
Mary, no birth date shown, but christened 31 Oct 1795 (mother's name transcribed as Christian)
Margaret, no birth date shown, but christened 3 June 1798
and Catherine (as previously posted there's a Moi typo, its not 1 October 1801 but ...) christening 02 October 1801

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 February 10 06:00 GMT (UK)

Hi,

In The Times (London) Tuesday, Oct 05, 1824; pg. 2; Issue 12461; col F, there's mention of a report received back in England of Captain ROLLAND of the Buffs (ie from moi memory that's the 73rd Regiment). It mentions that the Buffs were stationed around Port Dalymple, and that Rolland had returned from a land excursion in that area.

I mention this in case the name Rolland is a clue to finding the names of others in that detachment, including perhaps a McNally....

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 03 February 10 09:10 GMT (UK)

Government Public Notice. Secretary's Office, Hobart Town, 3rd January, 1818

ALL Female Prifoners not affigned to Service, and who are allowed to be at large on their own Hands, must have regular Tickets of Leave ; they are required to apply at the Secretary's Office on Wednefday next, .the 7th Inftanf, between the Hours of Ten and One O’Clock, and to bring with them in writing the Names of the Ships in which they left England, the Years in which they arrived from Europe, and.the Names of the Veffels by which they arrived at this Colony alfo, the Periods and Places of Trial, and the periods of Sentence.

Such Women as neglect or disobey this Notice will be ordered into Government Employment.
Several Females haying appeared at the General Muster having stated themselves themelves to have become Free by Servitude, but were unable , to exhibit any Certificate of Freedom, all females, who have become Free by Expiration of Sentence, not proffering a Certificate ,of Freedom,, are to apply, at this Office, on the following Day ,(Thürsday 8th),betweèn the Hours ot Ten and One; and bring with them in writing particulars Of their Trials, Sentences and vessels in which they arrived from Europe and at this Colony

By Command of His Honor the Lieutenant Governor,W. A Ross, Secretary

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 03 February 10 09:24 GMT (UK)

This is the Public Order re the 1819 Muster- "Where were you ?" would be asked of any neighbour not turning up!
Government House, Hobart Town, Saturday, September 18th, 1819.
A GENERAL MUSTER of the Whole of the Inhabitants (Civil Officers and Military excepted) will take Place in the different Districts of the Settlement on the Derwent on the Days herein-after-mentioned, under the Inspection of His Honor the LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR.
In George's Square, Hobart Town, on Monday and Tuesday, October 11 and 12th, all the Free Men of every Description on and off the Stores residing in Hobart Town and adjacent Districts on this side of the River, including Queenborough to Brown's River and North West Bay downwards, and New Town and its Environs as far as the Black Snake upwards.
On, Wednesday, 13th all the Free Women of every Description on and off the Stores in the same Districts.
On Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, 14, 15, and 16th, all the Male Prisoners on and of the Stores in the same Districts, includingTicket of Leave Men.
On Monday and Tuesday, October 18 and 19th, all the Female Prisoners on and off theStores in the same Districts.
At District Constable Kimberly's, ClarencePlains, on Wednesday, October 20th, the Whole of every Description of Free Men and Women on and off the Stores, and of all Maleand Female Prisoners on and off the Stores, in Clarence Plains, the Lagoon District, and District of Kangaroo Point.
At B. Reardon's, Pitt Water, on Friday, Octo- ber 22d, the Whole of every Description ofFree Men and Women on and off the Stores, in the District of Pitt Water, with New Plains and the Carleton.
On Saturday, October 23d, all the Male and Female Prisoners, Tickets of Leave included, within the said Districts.At the Coal River, near the Scite of the Hutformerly Mrs. Sargeant's, on Monday, Octo- ber 25th, the Whole of every Description of Free Men and Women on and off the Stores, and all Male and Female Prisoners, Tickets of Leave included, on and off the Stores, in the Districts of the Coal River, the Duck Holes, &c.Herdsmen's Cove,
on Wednesday, October29th, the Whole of every Description of Free Men and Women, and of Male and Female Prisoners, Tickets of Leave included, in the District and Vicinity of Herdsmen's Cove, Green Point, Black Brush, Old Beach, Tea- tree Brush, Dromedary Creek, Bagdad, Green- water Holes, Cross Marsh, Jericho, Rope Walk, and Spring Hill, including all Stock- keepers as far as York Plains and the Macquarie River.
At Elizabeth, Town, New Norfolk, on Monday, November aft, all the Free Men and Women, on and off the Stores, in the District of New Norfolk, the Back Settlement, and District of Melvill ; also those resident at the Fat Doe River, the Rivers Plenty and Styx,Stony-hut Plains, and all Out-stations and Stockyards in that Quarter. On Tuesday, November 2d, all the Male and Female Prisoners, Tickets of Leave included,within the same Districts.
The Muster will begin at Ten o'clock in the Morning at the Places and on the Days stated. At all these Musters the Free Women, as well those who came Free to this Colony as those who are Free by Absolute of Conditional Pardon, and by Expiration of Sentence, are to give in the Names and Ages of their Chil- dren. All Female Prisoners are also to give in the Names and Ages of their Children. And all Persons, Male and Female, whose Sentences have expired, are desired to bring their Certificates :-Those who have received Pardons and Emancipations are also to pro- duce them, and all Tickets of Leave to be ex-hibited.
The Settlers and Holders of Land and Stock will give in an Account of their Land io Culti- vation, together with the Stock and Grain in their Possession.
It being impossible for the Musters to be taken accurately without the personal Attendance of all herein described, it is the LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR'S positive Orders that every Person comprised within this Order do personally attend ; and any who act in Disobedience will incur immediate Forfeiture of all present and an Exclusion from all future indulgences ; and all Persons who have People in their Employ, who are comprised in this Order, are required to warn them to attend at the Times and Places specified, for the several Districts in which they reside ; and no Returns will be received from any Persons of those in their Employ, the personal Attend- ance of all being strictly enjoined.
All Public Officers will make a Return of the Land and Stock in their Possession ; and in Order that all Stock-keepers may have opportunity of attending these Musters at the Place most convenient to their Employers, they are allowed to attend on any of the Days of Muster at the Place and Distroct most convenient to their Grazing-ground.

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Wednesday 03 February 10 09:31 GMT (UK)

Search Criteria: Surname="macnally"

Family Name   Given Name(s)   Title   Rank   Ship of Departure   Date of Departure   Port of Departure   Where Bound   Ship to Colony   Status   Remarks   References
Macnally   John      Seaman   Governor Macquarie   28 Jan 1818   Hobart   Port Dalrymple and Port Jackson            CUS33/1/3 p31

There were McNallys around in 1818, John McNally, seaman, going on Governor Macquarie from Hobart to Port Dalrymple and Port Jackson- possibly the sealer John Macanally (Rosetta 16/12/1815 SGazette), John Macknelly (Queen Charlotte 3/4/1813 SG and Queen Charlotte 1/3/1815).

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Wednesday 03 February 10 09:46 GMT (UK)

Hi David,

If I were around in 1819, and I was anywhere in VDL errr........ I would have turned up to be MUSTERED ;D, and I would have done the same in 1822 .... ;D... that's perhaps why I am doubtful that Catharine Christina McNally was in VDL in 1819 or in 1822 ;D. That Public Order is so very similar to Lachlan Macquarie's for the Musters in NSW...

Have you any ideas about the current whereabouts for information from the 1823 Muster ? It would be very interesting to learn the details for Thomas Ransom, the publican ;D

By the way, I think the baptismal date for Thomas McNally was 18 December, and I seem to recall that there were newspaper advertisements in December 1829 from a neighbour complaining about stray cattle at Green Ponds, markings TR and CN... so errrrr .... perhaps Catharine was in Hobart organising a) Oct 1829 the publican's licence, b) November the probate of Thomas' will, c) December her trousseau for her marriage to Fred, and perhaps even d) her son's baptism...

Re the Seaman on the ship Hobart and PD to PJ... I seem to recall posting on the old thread, or perhaps earlier on this thread with info about several seamen with similar names/voyages, but if Jan 1818 was the last time John McNally, the seaman was around, then that would suggest that Catharine's son was born no more than nine months after Jan 1818 ;D or errr... perhaps he was one of the impediments that bespoke Thomas Ransom dating from about 1814 ;D...

Again, its defaulting back to finding the record, and inspecting the record ...

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 February 10 01:26 GMT (UK)

Hi all,

Perhaps there's a clue as to how Catherine Christina's surname may have been written in VDL in her era ...

I have spotted a VDL record for a "Nally John Mc" .... a convict who was sentenced in 1828 in Middlesex, and transported to VDL via the Manlius.

It seems to me that it is quite likely that those initials branded on those straying steers in the December 1829 newspaper advertisements... well, they were " C N " that would be N would be for NALLY Mc . I have raised this previously, but it seems to me that at least in the instance that I have found today, that the "Mc" was not causing surnames to be listed under "M" ........

I would be interested to know what the parish records show (Nally Mc versus Mc Nally or versus M'Nally etc) for
a) Catharine's marriage to Fred in 1830, and for
b) Thomas McNally's baptism at (I think) St Davids on 18 December 182X ?

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4217562 This cutting has it as M'Nally, it seems to be the only newspaper cutting with Catharine's full name of Catharine Christiana M'Nally mentioned, its to do with calling a special meeting for 6 April 1829 re the licence transfer considerations.... (The Hobart Town Courier Saturday 21 March 1829)...

Cheers

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Thursday 04 February 10 03:52 GMT (UK)

JM' Perhaps we need to really go look again at Nally and its variations, including Niele, where we have looked for Mc Nally (et al) before. We seem to have turned over every stone and page looking for McNally so perhaps it is time to explore another focussed version :-\

Do seem to remember looking on BDM somewhere for Nally but oldtimers has blocked which one it was. :-[

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 February 10 05:40 GMT (UK)

Hi there,

Reading over the threads, noticing various posts mention the index references to the NSW Col Secretary's papers, but errr... I have not found any actual references to the contents of those files. So, err... perhaps I should mention that the contents of those files can be ordered and copies sent via snail mail... From memory its $25 for the first, and $3 for up to five more... No, that's NOT $25 for the first page, its for the first reference... which could be any number of pages ... I seem to recall paying $25 for one entry from the Col Secretary's papers(1788-1825) and receiving over 60 pages for someone in my own tree chart ....

eg under Ransom, Thomas ... you would obviously get LISTS which include Thomas' name .... and thus also include OTHER NAMES .... so errr.... the list for 1823 , owing quit rents at Green Ponds... perhaps it includes NAMES associated with Catharine Christiana McNally also...

Hope Wiggy has spare $25 or so ;D

RANSOM, Thomas. Per "Scarborough", 1790; former Master Carpenter, Norfolk Island
There's about nine index references, including this one : :D

1823 On list of persons owing quit rents in Van Diemen's Land; for land in the District of Green Ponds (Fiche 3270; X19 p.21)

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 February 10 06:15 GMT (UK)

:) I've been looking at lists and lists circa 1820 - 1830 for VDL

1830 NALLY
John Mc ex Manlius in VDL assigned to a Mr Petchey
Wm Mc ex Lady East of 1825, in VDL assigned to a T Anstey Esq

1830 NANNIE
John Mc ex Andronedra (sic), transported to Maria Island ;)

There's stacks with Mc appearing after their first name ....... ::)

I'll see what else I can find about the Nally Wm Mc (presume William McNally ;D) ex that Lady East of 1825

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 February 10 06:28 GMT (UK)

;D ;D ;D

VDL 1826, Nally William Mc ex Lady East assigned to Dr Seacombe

and
1823, William McNally sentenced to 7 years transportation for Larceny from the person .... trial Oct 1823 Lancashire

Noticing that NSW Musters list "Mc" and "Mac" under M, but VDL does NOT ...., ;D

Now to find when the Lady East arrived in VDL .... (to eliminate a possible candidate for the "prying eyes" informant ;D )

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 February 10 06:36 GMT (UK)

Errr.......... I'm putting William McNally in the frame ;D

The Lady East left UK about 16 Dec 1824, arrived VDL abt 9 April 1825 ....

Remembering Thomas Ransom's letter to Gov Arthur was written in 1825, but AFTER April ;D

Perhaps William had married Catharine in about 1814 ;) in perhaps Lancashire ;D ... now to try to find a maiden surname PRE 1837 in England .... not exactly an easy task ;D And then to find that surname used to get a "came free" lady to NSW or VDL ... again, not exactly an easy task ....

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Thursday 04 February 10 07:38 GMT (UK)

Err,

Nalley Mc Wm, (noticing the "e" ;) ) err he certainly liked to drink ::) did he run into Thomas and or Catharine in Hobart Town shortly after he arrived ;) on one of his (without leave) excusions from his Master's house :o

http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/default.aspx?detail=1&type=I&id=CON31/1/29 (image 305 of 366 ;D )

Cheers,

Oh well, Wiggy will have lots of catching up to do when she's back from holidays.

And I hope David can follow up on this particular chap who was still alive and was found drunk in 1832 ;) ... perhaps William McNally was a brother to Catharine, but he thought he could get free drinks from Thomas by holding Thomas to "ransom" over some apparent secret about her ....

well errr.... at least I've found a possible candidate for those "prying eyes".... and I've found many "Mc" and "Mac" filed in VDL records under the remainder of their surnames.... I have found it rather odd to read eg "Namara, John Mc" ...

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Thursday 04 February 10 08:53 GMT (UK)

One of the places I searched for Nalley Nally Nallie Nallen was Tas Colonial family resource. Just checked NIELE and NEILE no luck there only Daniel McNielly b Ireland 1785 died Hobart 1871 so the death is too late to be of interestand a Catherine McNiell who entered a relationship with William
laird in 1846. :'(

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Thursday 04 February 10 09:25 GMT (UK)

http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au

Bench of Magistrates Court
Jame McNally 1798
Owen McNally 1814
Who are these men? They also before the arrivals of convicts of that name see below:

Court of Civil Jurisdtiction
James McNally 1810 and 1812 So who is he? Not the convict as it is before 1816 see below

So there are MCNally's around in the relevant times

Plus convicts McNally:
Owen 1815
James 1816
Patrick 1818
William 1820

MMMMMM

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Friday 05 February 10 06:46 GMT (UK)

I am still focussing on sealing crew McNallys ( and derivatives) prior to 1819- so futher to Post 346 we have John Macanally as crew per Gov Maquarie 13/8/1814, John Macanally per Gov Maquarie 4/3/1815, James Macanally alias Wilson per Perserverance with Catharine Rooke in 1811, and of course the John McNally and wife employed by Cummings 6/1/1816 per Brothers.

Just from memory, Owen is out of the frame, so is Patrick.

I can't get out of my mind that we have two guys called Mcnally, John and James , in Port Dalrymple in 1818 , a seaman John Mcnally on the Governor Maquarie who pops up in Sydneyand Hobart between 1810-1818 at least, a John Mcnally and a Catherine having a child in 1810, and a John McNally and wife going to Port Dalrymple 1816. I have checked my notes, but can't see why I eliminated Catherine Rook(e) from the scene- daughter of William Rooke? did she die in the Boyd massacre, was she just too old- otherwise there she is in the same crew as James Macanally in the Perserverance in 1810 ( and John on Rosetta with William Rooke as master in 1815)

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Friday 05 February 10 07:28 GMT (UK)

DAv,

Am I right in assuming that none of these

Quote

so futher to Post 346 we have John Macanally as crew per Gov Maquarie 13/8/1814, John Macanally per Gov Maquarie 4/3/1815, James Macanally alias Wilson per Perserverance with Catharine Rooke in 1811

would show up on the relevant musters?
But that

Quote

John McNally and wife employed by Cummings 6/1/1816 per Brothers.

are included in the musters?

I think Catharine Rook was one of the victims in Boyd massacre but I haven'tfound it yet it.

Wondered if we had followed up on this reference Wiggy found way way back in
Re: Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1821: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
« Reply #248 on: Wednesday 05 August 09 01:13 UTC (UK) »

Quote

MCSALLY, James In index to land grants in Van Diemen's Land (Fiche 3262; 4/438 p.64)

modified to add

FOUND IT
Re: Please help? RANSOM Thomas 1821: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
« Reply #238 on: Tuesday 04 August 09 10:35 UTC (UK) »

Quote

Re REply 223 Catherine Rourke alias Catherine Rook(e), sealer. It just gets more confusing the more you dig- now Catherine Rourke has morphed into Bourke, and has been massacred in 1809 .,a year before she is in the crew of Perserverance with Jamed Macanally!

• 1809 70 Europeans killed when the ship the Boyd was sacked and the crew massacred in Whangaroa Harbour, Northland. one woman, one girl, one boy and a baby spared and later rescued. Those killed included passengers: Ann GLOSSOP, ]Catherine BOURKE [/font] (or ROURKE), R W WRATHER, James MOORE, John BUDDEN, Robert THOMAS, Mordica MARKS, John PETTY, Thomas MARTIN, William ALLEN, John THOMAS, William MAHONEY, Denis DESMOND.

David

RObyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Friday 05 February 10 07:42 GMT (UK)

Hi ;D

Saturday 18 May 1811, Sydney Gazette ... Here's Catharine Rook, only female crew member ::) on the Perserverence, of course with James Macanally alias Wilson ....

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/628246?searchTerm=%22Macanally%22

Cheers, All,

I like your thinking David ;D

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Friday 05 February 10 12:49 GMT (UK)

Thanks Robyn, nice to have friends who can remind you of what you have done when you have forgotten! Can you tell me where I parked the car?

Ok- Catherine Rook(e) and the sealers- William Rook- John Mcanally- James Macanally alias Wilson ) presumably James Wilson)

I got excited when I found Catharine Rook as a crew member on "Perserverance" in 1811 with another crew member James Macanally alias Wilson. However there was no further reference to her in Sydey Gazette, nor in NSW BMD. Then a reference indicated she was killed in the Boyd massacre, but identified her as Bourke/Rourke. But Boyd massacre was 1809. But I searched for her under the names Bourke/Rourke anyway, and came up with SG 15/5/1803 a marriage of Catharine Rourke , widow of the Rocks, to Henry Simpson, a catholic marriage. If Catharine Mcnally was born 1789, then she was a widow and remarrying at 14. Could be,but it seems i lost interest at this stage due to lack of further information. So she is still in the mix.

William Rook aappears in Sydney Gazette regularly as a sealer from 1805 -1824- I believe he died in 1825. Always Rook, never Rourke. I didn't prove a relationship with Catharine Rook- but have assumed daughter- and so discarded Rourke as her name, so Widow Rourke was not her.

James macanally only appears once as a sealer( the perserverance record), but James Wilson appears in Sydney Gazette 4 times in 1810-1811 re dead letters- then a james Wilson is granted Ticket of leave in Hobart Hobart Gazette 19/4/1817. James Mcnally appears in 1818 muster at Port Dalrymple and subsequently in Gazette and HRA , and supplying wheat to Commissariat in 1822.

There seems to be a continuing overlap and association between a John and a James McNally- remember in1818 muster at Port dalrymple John is shown per Boddingtons, but it was james on Boddingtons,. But there do seem to have been two seperate people in VDL at this time

Add in the registration of John by John Mcnally and Catharine in 1811, and the employment of John McNally and wife by Cummings in 1816, and the continuing crewing on Governor Macquarie by a John McNally including 1818 at Hobart, and I think we have enough Mcnallys!

Further reserch on Catharine Rook after 1811 seems justified

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 02:13 GMT (UK)

Hi there,

Re the Rosetta and the mariner/sealer William Rook and Catharine Rook and ...

In November 1818 the Rosetta was sold to the NSW Govt and renamed "Prince Leopold" (Sydney Gazette 28 Nov 1818)
In December 1818 the Prince Leopold took passengers from PJ to various ports in VDL including Rev Youl . In Feb 1819 Rev Youl and among others a Miss Brennan returned to PJ (by a different vessel)

In October 1819 a servant to the Rev John Youl accompanied him on the Prince Leopold to VDL (again ;D ) and the servant's name : Miss Catherine Brennan ....

So who was Miss Catherine Brennan ........ ;D She's on the TAO Index of arrivals as Catherine Brennan, servant to Rev Youl, arrival date 18 Oct 1819 (ie after the Muster) with reference CON13/1 p248

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 02:42 GMT (UK)

Hi there

On the convict transport Ann/Anne arriving PJ Feb 1801 from Ireland were 147 male prisoners and 24 female prisoners... including a Catherine Brennan and a Mary McNally http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/confem23.html

;D

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 03:01 GMT (UK)

Hi there

Re Mary McNally ex the ship Ann of 1801 .... NSW Muster of 1816 shows her 7 years expired in 1806, and that she was a Widow, living in the colony ....

Modifying to add, 1817 muster has Mary McNally living in the Colony (NSW) and adds her trial was held in the Summer of 1799 .. at Dublin ... ;D ....

Further Mod.... Err.... still have not found any clues re birth dates for either Mary McNally or Catherine Brennan .... Sorry ...

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 06 February 10 03:42 GMT (UK)

Having difficulty in finding the record for Catherine Brennan as servant of John Youl,going to Hobart on Prince leopold in October 1819- the report I found states family but not servant- can find Miss Brennan leaving Hobart to Sydney per "Alert" earlier in year in February 1819, with fellow passengers Youl/Gore/McQuuen. McQueen is merchant of 14 Hunter St Sydney. Claims on Miss Brennan to be presentd to Mr Birch in Macquarie Street. This sounds lke a business trip, if there is a relationship between the four of them.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 03:46 GMT (UK)

Hi,

Could this be the baptism of Catharine Christiana McNally in IRELAND in 1792 .... ::)

On the Irish Family History Foundation Online Genealogy Databases for Ireland http://ifhf.brsgenealogy.com/search.php (This site contains the largest collection of Parish records for the island of Ireland that are searchable online. )

There's a baptism indexed for 1792 for a Catharine McNally in the Co of Dublin ;D but to get to view the actual record, there's a fee of five euros ...

Modifying to Add, Hi David, re BRENNAN, she shows as SERVANT on the TAO index ;D

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 06 February 10 03:51 GMT (UK)

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 06 February 10 03:54 GMT (UK)

Youl returned to England in 1813 for further study and was promised priest's orders by the bishop of London. He received episcopal ordination by the bishop of Chester in 1815. He was later commissioned by Earl Bathurst as the first chaplain to the settlement at Port Dalrymple in northern Van Diemen's Land at a salary of £183. He sailed for Sydney where Governor Lachlan Macquarie sent him temporarily to Liverpool until a house was ready in Van Diemen's Land for his family. Youl went to Port Dalrymple on 20 December 1818 to inspect his new parish. During this three weeks visit he married forty-one couples, some of whom had anticipated the blessing of the church, and baptized sixty-seven children. After long delay he and his family sailed from Sydney at his own cost in the government brig Prince Leopold. He arrived with thirty tons of freight [/font] at Launceston in November 1819 and moved into Government Cottage.

Don't suppose you'd notice a servant or two in the hold with the kitchen sink- thats a lot of stuff!

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 06 February 10 03:56 GMT (UK)

Re CCM 1792 dublin-is that parents henry and alice?
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 03:59 GMT (UK)

Hi

I'm re-reading Clem Sargent's book re the 48th Regiment ... The Rev John Youl is mentioned .... I'll modify this post with the details shortly, from memory though, Rev Youl was an assistant chaplain to that regiment, so would have travelled PJ to VDL fairly regularly.

Modifying to add, see post 370.
Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 04:14 GMT (UK)

Hi David,

Re the Dublin 1792 baptism, the index doesn't show any details for her parentage, and I don't have any euros to gain access to view the record...

Re Rev Youl .... He was in VDL in 1821, baptising children of the military .... eg

At St Johns, Launceston in Nov 1821 baptising Pte Richard Wayne's daughter,
And in June 1821 (but no church or place named) he baptised a John James SMITH, son of a Pte Thomas Smith...
(both events attributed by Clem Sargent as performed by Youl ... page 87 of the book I have cited several times on the threads)

Also, on page 61 of that same book .... Cimitiere had instructions from Macquarie to erect buildings urgently, even if that meant withdrawing convict labour from their assignments .... so the first building at George Town was for the Rev John Youl .... and the next was for the commandant (Cimitiere) ... I think that would place Youl in VDL on frequent basis from early 1818 to post 1821, and thus perhaps his servant (Miss Catherine Brennan) would travel too ... (with perhaps a basin for a kitchen sink ;D)

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 04:32 GMT (UK)

Hi David,

The Catharine McNally with parents Henry/Alice seems to be a submitted entry showing baptism of 6 Jan 1790 in Ireland .... this is not the same index as I posted earlier today, showing 1792 with Co Dublin... ;) ...

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 06 February 10 05:22 GMT (UK)

have been revisiting teh irsih transportation records as their archives ealiest MCNally in them is 1824

A couple of Catherine McNally's but all well after the time we are looking at. Several had their petitions for wives and families to join them all after the dates we are looking at.

No leads there it seems but it was wise to re check as there were more there than when I last looked at it.

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 05:27 GMT (UK)

Hi All,

;D Robyn ... those Irish Transportation Records .... ;D

I've been reading books and looking through online newspapers .....

Re ROOK

There's a Mrs ROOK of New Town in The Hobart Town Gazette and Southern Reporter Saturday 19 April 1817 ... she was ex Norfolk ISLAND ... aged 78 .... I'm wondering if there's a connection to Catharine ... err .... Mrs Rook would have been similar age to Thomas RANSOM and surely Mrs Rook would have known Mr Ransom on NI or at least in VDL .... the small population .... the similar ages ....

"none ever closed their days with a more respectable character and her worth will be long remembered"

(spotted the cutting when looking for Rev Youl ;D ) http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/652581

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 06 February 10 05:47 GMT (UK)

Youl moved to Launceston but a chest ailment and the prevailing moral laxity drove him to despair. A month after sharing in the consecration of the unfinished church, he died from asthma on 25 March 1827. His widow died at Perth, Tasmania, on 19 July 1877.

Remember John- he was the one who registered the death of Anne Cummings by drowning in 1822- his property is on the midland highway south of Evandale, on the south esk, before Symmons Plains. The sister of my wife's Great Great grandmother was alsodrowned in the south Esk when the chaise driven by Youl's overseer overturned and fell into the flooding river in 1851- not a healthy spot for ladys in carts !

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 06 February 10 05:49 GMT (UK)

correction- ladies in carts
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 06 February 10 05:59 GMT (UK)

Tas Colonial family links has one Catherine Rook b1768 (nothing else) so she is neither the Mrs Rook you found nor the Catherine Rook we are lookiing for. (only 8 entries for Rook 47 for Rooke and none match tje time frame)

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 06:06 GMT (UK)

;D

And err ... Rev'd Youl's first residence ... the one at George Town ... became a Female Factory when he went to Launceston ... Also it seems his wife was a child of a convict, and he had an early association with the Ebenezer (NSW) church .... So perhaps Miss Catherine Brennan may have had a connection to either Youl's wife or to the London Missionary Society ...

I know Robyn has mentioned the following before on this thread, but trying to find females who don't seem to have a convict record is very much a "hit and miss" affair.... I cannot find that Mrs Rook who must have been transferred to VDL from Norfolk Island ... its far too far to have swum ... ;D ... perhaps she is on a general muster prior to her April 1817 death at 78, but most likely she would be noted on Musters under her nee name .... alas, I have not yet found her given name ....

I'm thinking that perhaps Mrs Rook was likely the mother of William Rook, and perhaps she was grandmother of Catherine Rook ....

Thanks Robyn for the Tas Colonial info, so there's several families with name of Rook back in those days, and the Tas Colonial info doesn't cover all of them .... Alas ... ;)

Cheers, JM.

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 06 February 10 06:41 GMT (UK)

looking at ROOK in the NLA and came across a THOMAS ROOK sentenced to 4 years hard labour at Newcastle for larceny in 1815. ANother MAttew ROOK aged 37 in 1828 as an absconding convict i VDL.

Looked again at the Catharine Rook and James Mcanally article
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?searchTerm=catharine+rook&textSearchScope=full&facet=decade:1810
and wondered :-\

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8645326?searchTerm=catharine+rook
one Catharine Rook sent to the female factory for drunkeness in 1830 again unlikley to be the Mrs Rook or the 1768 Catherine Rook

As you say JM lots of ROOKs around but not many on archival sources.

Lots for William ROOK seems he was well respected it seems as was teh Mrs Rook you found and as was Catharine McNally. (IS this a clue?)

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 06:52 GMT (UK)

Hi Robyn,

Yes, well respected ;D its a very good clue...

I have found a William ROOK in the third fleet .... errr ... was Thomas Ransom in the third fleet ?

Anyways, that particular William Rook was sentenced to 7 years on 9 Oct 1788, at sessions at (can't read the writing 'parts of Kersetern' , but from memory its one of those places in Lancashire .... ie in that UK county opposite Ireland ;D

There's a William ROOK on the 1806 Muster, a sealer with some crew names that are hard to decipher ... I'll post that info later, preparations for our evening meal are intruding on this search ... ;D

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 06 February 10 07:11 GMT (UK)

Yep you have to speculate on that link of the level of respectablity which was easily lost in those times.

So can we have Mrs ROOK, mother to William ROOK master seaman, father to Catharine ROOK possible married to John/James MCannally (McNally[Wilson[) perhaps under pressure of prying eyes as they shipped off whaleing together, then subsequently deserted or abandonded by him and taken in by Ransom who may well have known William Rook and possibley Mrs Rook? (?norfolk Island connection for all?)

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 07:43 GMT (UK)

Umm,

1806 Muster, these names all listed together, and noting it has all four as in the employ of H Kable (a famous name there, Henry Kable !), no details of their first arrival to OZ ... ::)

Wm ROOK, Sealing
Mich ROGERS, Sealing, (H Kable's Apprentice)
John ROGERS, Sealing
Emanl RODERICK, Sealing

I will go out on a limb and say that Wm ROOK as noted on that 1806 muster was same William ROOK on the Rosetta etc ... ie a sealer and whaler who seems to have visited : Macquarie island, Bass Straits, New Zealand etc in the very early decades of settlements, and must have known Thomas RANSOM .... to me, there's a heap of instances and co-incidences ....

Wondering if perhaps Catherine ROOK / Mcnally was born/raised on N I ... and also wondering if there's a concise list of names of those who went to VDL from that first settlement at N I .... the movement was over a period of years, Thomas was among the last to leave in about Feb 1814 from memory .... 1814, plus eleven years ... err..... that's got that familiar ring of 1825 and those prying eyes raising the impediment again ::)

Perhaps there's a list of those born on NI ... I can think of Norfolk King, and also wasn't W C Wentworth born there too ... Oh well, trying not to sidetrack, so back to Catharine Christiana McNally ...

So close, yet not really any further than the first page of Wiggy's first thread .... 51 pages later .... ... ::)

Cheers,
JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Saturday 06 February 10 07:57 GMT (UK)

Hi all

thinking of individuals AGES and the time line:
Is it likely that Catharine ROOK may have been Williams's SISTER ::)

Have posted a query on NI page on face book anad will also try another NI ,mailing list.

modified to add,
Had one reply from NI facebook page.

Quote

William Rooke: arrived on "Matilda" June 1791 as convict; left after
October 1796 No information about the other two.

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 06 February 10 10:50 GMT (UK)

I don't think we are looking for Rooks i VDL- if Catherine Rook is relevant, she has become Catherine McNally by the time she gets to VDL.

There are over 30 William Rook references in newspapers ,the earliest in 1805 when he has permission to go southward, then 1813, 1814,1815, 1818,1820,1822,1823 and 1824, on shipsWoodlark, Newcastle, Mnerva, Rosetta, Lynx,and belinda, and 10 times on Elizabeth and Mary. He was also administrator of the estate of William Earl who died on Mcquarie Island in 1812. He was a sealer, usually master- he is the archtype of the Sydney sealers and probably deserves a book of his own- they were sometimes away months, sometimes years eft on an island until the ship returned. Catherine Rook is only mentioned once in the Perseverance record in 1811- I will double check the 1811/1814 musters and HRA on Monday for a futher reference- but if she was still crewing ( I don't think so or she would appear in the papers- some list a crew of up to 34 all by name) then she would be likely to be missed from the Muster.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 06 February 10 11:01 GMT (UK)

ROOK, William. Master, "Rosetta"

1816 Sep 13
Instructions concerning recapture of "Trial" from pirates (Reel 6005; 4/3495 pp.124-5)

1816 Sep 28
Giving particulars of voyage of "Rosetta" to and from Howe's Island in pursuit of "Trial" which had been seized by convicts to make escape (Reel 6045; 4/1735 pp.131-9

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 11:10 GMT (UK)

Hi David and Hi Robyn ;D

I think it would be worthwhile to consider a link to ROOK in VDL ... afterall that Mrs Rook died there in 1817 and was ex NI ... Are there any ROOK females on early VDL Musters ? Of course, if Catharine on the Perserverance was perhaps William Rook's sister or daughter .... then perhaps she was their cook ... and afterall she must have been a grand cook by the number of glowing reports on her hospitality skills from the 1820's and later .....

Err.... re "Trial" chase in 1816 .... any mention of William's crew .... or of the names of the convicts ;)

But on other hand, I have spotted a chap whose alias was James McNally !

Sentenced to 7 years on 18 April 1804 ... arrived on Fortune and Alexander in 1806 (to PJ) ... his name seems to have been noted on transportation as James Mcquire (although indexed as McQuire, but the "Q" looks to me like "q", its NOT like the numeral "2" which is how I expect to see "q" capitalised ...

I'll try to figure out if that chap on the Fortune and Alexander of 1806 became a sealer ;D

Cheers, JM
MODIFYING TO ADD, forgot to mention the 18 April 1804 trial was in LANCASHIRE ... sorry

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 11:34 GMT (UK)

Guess what, ;D

James McGuire, ex the Fortune is Indexed on the Col Sec papers....

In 1810 he was recommended as a pilot at Newcastle .... That's a tricky port to enter even now ... remember the Pasha Bulka ...

That puts James McGuire alias James McNally ex the Fortune & Alexander as a VERY likely candidate for the chap on the Perserverence in May 1811, particularly as his trial was 18 April 1804, and sentence was 7 years and on 20 April 1811 he was claiming his time was up ! The immediate question becomes "from where does the alias of Wilson fit in"

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 11:43 GMT (UK)

Hi there,

Re James McGuire alias James McNally

Notice that in Feb 1812 there's a James McGuire on the Schooner, Unity probably as crew .... also mention of a female on that trip .... Elizabeth Standey

Sydney Gazette Saturday 22 February 1812

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 11:50 GMT (UK)

Hi there,

There's a NSW index for a Conditional Pardon of 1 Jan 1814 (and of course 1814 + 11 years = 1825 and err "prying eyes") anyways, the CP was issued in the name of James McGuire ....

Cheers, JM

PS ... Pilotage of Newcastle today is apparently considered a very specialised skill and only awarded to very experienced mariners .... (as per my OH's comments this evening)

Modifying to add that the Fortune arrived at PJ and was followed by the WHALING vessel, Alexander. There were male and female convicts on the Alexander .... " James McGuire alias James McNally" is the entry on the 1806 ships' muster ;D

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 06 February 10 12:42 GMT (UK)

Now I was going to be a smarty pants and tell you all about Rosetta Rook and Alfred and Henry and all the Rookes of Hampshire and Catharine Rook and Patience and William Rook, and what do I find ! I’ve been trumped with a Mcguire- well done JM !
So -James Mcquire (alias McNally) 7 years on 18 April 1804 Lancashire ... arrived Fortune and Alexander in 1806 (to PJ) Col Sec papers1810 recommended as a pilot at Newcastle so mariner, could be Perserverence May 1811. particularly as sentence was 7 years and on 20 April 1811 he was claiming his time was up ! Conditional Pardon of 1 Jan 1814 in name of James McGuire . So known as McGuire, Mcnally and Wilson?
So I immediately thought-
1818 free Women on General Muster Hobart Town
Catherine McGwire ( McGuire)
But also listed is Julia McGwire maiden name Hopley married to Robert McGuire, she arrived 1803 on Calcutta, and Catharine is probably their daughter, as Robert is listed in 1819 Muster as with wife and child. The1822 Muster Hobart Town – Women does not include Catherine - so she has married or left or died, but she is the daughter of Robert and Julia and so not the wife of James McGuire/Mcnally.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 12:45 GMT (UK)

Hi all, especially Robyn,

So William Rook arrived in 1791 and there's no sighting on NI after 1796 errr.... Catharine Christiana McNally's year of birth is likely to be 1789 .... as per that notice in The Courier of Friday 21 August 1857.... DEATH. On the 17th instant, at Killymoon, CHRISTINA, the wife of Frederick L. Stieglitz, Esq., aged 68 years.

If Catharine Rook /McNally (variants) of the Perverence May 1811, was his sister, it would be as his younger sister .... ;D

Quote from: regross on Saturday 06 February 10 07:57 GMT (UK)

Hi all

thinking of individuals AGES and the time line:
Is it likely that Catharine ROOK may have been Williams's SISTER ::)

Have posted a query on NI page on face book anad will also try another NI ,mailing list.

modified to add,
Had one reply from NI facebook page.

Quote
William Rooke: arrived on "Matilda" June 1791 as convict; left after
October 1796 No information about the other two.

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Saturday 06 February 10 12:57 GMT (UK)

Hi David,

I feel we are all "this close".... to sorting and between us we will all come up "trumps" ;D.... I cannot find the James McGuire alias Mcnally etc on any NSW records after that possible sighting of a CP in 1814 ... To me, he has "Gone Whaling".... Also, I cannot find that Catharine who was on the Perserverance in May 1811... I think that she's "Gone Whaling" until she was carrying either a) Ann or b) Thomas McNally and was perhaps landed in "Hobart's Town" after the 1820 Muster. Not sure why she's not there for the 1822 Muster, .... or the 1823 one remembering that there's a Constable Amos who conducted part of that 1823 muster and his diary seems to be extant in some archives somewheres...

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 06 February 10 14:01 GMT (UK)

Wiggy has us all brainwashed with Catherine being respectable! So- respectability we shall seek Patience,Prudence, the whole Pilgrims Progress bit- I wanted her to be Catherine Brown, the Quaker/Methodist.

How about Catherine Rook as niece of William Rook?

And don't forget that Catherine Christina Mcnally was the chatelaine of Killymoon, which estate included the property of Millbrook, because the mill was built on the creek- but, what if the parents of Catherine Rook,( John Rooke and catherine Whitely )were married at Millbrook , Hampshire, on 19 April 1792, with daughter Catherine arriving 24/1/1793.

And if Uncle william ( born 1777) married Patience West in 1794 at Alverstoke

And if Uncle Henry (born 1786) had a son Alfred in 1820 who married Catherine Hall in 1841 and had a daughtr Rosetta!

[ Thomas Rooke and Mary Tilman married in 1769, and begat John 1772, Mary 1773, James 1775 ( who was convicted of stealing sheep at the 6/3/1793 Hampshire assizes and transported for 7 years), William in 1777, Jenny 1782 and Henry 1786.]

But nothing is what it seems in this tale, so, Team, pick holes in it, because it is past my bedtime.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Saturday 06 February 10 23:50 GMT (UK)

Another William Rook record-

Governor Hunter. Schooner, 35 tons. Registered Sydney 18 January 1805. Master William Rook. Stranded in the Furneaux Group, off Badger Island, 1 April 1809. Later refloated. Wrecked near Port Stephens, 1816. [LF],[AS1]

Have sent email to Editor Meon Valley News in hampshire asking readers for any Rook family history

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 07 February 10 00:23 GMT (UK)

Wow you two move so fast.

Yes Dav Catharine a a niece would be just as acceptable, I feel she would be to old to be his daughter.

Mcguire(et al) is of course most probably another alias for Wilson/McNally as JM proposes.

"Millbrook" is a wonderful connection Dav and possibly a great clue that we have not explored before. I know my grandfather called his house in Australia HAMPSTEAD after his place of birth. Another ancestor gave his place of birth as a seecond name to one of his children. SO a good lead to look at

regards

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Sunday 07 February 10 00:52 GMT (UK)

http://www.freewebs.com/rookfamilytree/names15.htm

Just found Rook family site- seems William of this family 1777 is not our man, who is buried at West Grinstead Sussex in 1854- although no intervening information,so he may heve gone back to England, but I think he died 1827 for some reason. However, nothing in site about Catherine 1793and Millbrook 1792, so that may still be a valid option. The initial link into this family was because of the name Rosetta Rook 1841 of Chalton Hants, which seemed too good to be true, then Millbrook.

Just keep on keeping on- need to pick up my better half from the airport, so probably offline for a day or so.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 07 February 10 01:01 GMT (UK)

I agree Dav the name Rsetta seems to be another link to this line of ROOKs, if not the William you originally thought it might be.

Just kidding but is there any possibilty that Catharine Rook was his wife ::)
added
http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/Northam/AppledoreBaptisms/IndependantChurch1.html
William Rooke b 1761 son of William Rook Mariner ans Amy most probably not our man but froma seafaring area lots of teh males were noted as mariners. There are other Rook(e) families there also.

added 2

WILLIAM ROOK of NSW bc1762
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/r/o/o/Peter-L-Rooke/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-Index.html
No sons William nor dauhters Catharine but could have had grandson/daughters of first marriage (not researched in this tree)

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Sunday 07 February 10 05:13 GMT (UK)

Change of plans- flights changed, so herewith death of William Rook-

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-McNMuri-t1-body-d1-d25.html
Murihiku: A History of the South Island of New Zealand and the Islands Adjacent and Lying to the South, from 1642 to 1835
CHAPTER XXV. — Colonization Schemes, 1825 to 1827

Arriving in Sydney in March, 1825, Stewart lost no time in getting his arrangements made for going to New Zealand and he inserted the following advertisement in the local papers.

“For New Zealand, to sail in fourteen days the Fine fast sailing schooner Prince of Denmark, William Stewart Master. Any gentleman wishing to visit these interesting Islands, will find this an excellent conveyance, as the above vessel will return to this Port in four months. For freight or passage apply to the Commander on board or to Robert Campbell. Campbell's Wharf March 15, 1825.”

The fourteen days had to be prolonged to over two months before the Prince of Denmark left “for New Zealand, and thence on an unknown speculating trip.” She left for the Bay of Islands, on 19th May .The Prince of Denmark sailed from New Zealand on 1st, and reached Sydney on 18th, December, 1825, having on board only 450 seal skins and one passenger, Mr. John Lee.
The schooner, in the course of her voyage, went into very high latitudes, and experienced weather of the utmost severity. One man well known in Sydney, Captain Rook, got frost-bitten, lost the use of his limbs, and died.

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Sunday 07 February 10 05:16 GMT (UK)

CRUMBS!!!

I went away and come home to 6 pages of theorizing! HELP!
I really can't take it all in - I freely admit that. So will stick to what I KNOW.

Thomas born 18th November,1820, christened St Davids Church Hobart, 14th December, 1820, by Robert Knopwood. (we all know of R Knopwood don't we!) That is the church register (transcript?) which I was shown in Hobart Archives Office. I have been in touch with the diocese of Tasmania about these records - that's the best I can do apparently. He was born and baptised in 1820 to Catharine McNally, unmarried.

the Catharine Morrison bit came from another relative who has been doing a lot of research and found the reference in a book "Born in the English colony of New South Wales 1788-1800" (or was it 1810) Anyway, I believe the Kate of 1793 and the Catharine registered as baptised in 1801 are one and the same person - so my friends and authorities would have me believe - sounds good to me.

She could be the person married to John McNally in time to have John Jnr in 1811 - she may have left him in 1814 and come south with Thomas on the Kangaroo (stowaway!!) and become Christina. Remember John jnr turned up in Sydney in 1822 muster with Ann Clemens? That solves any problem with him. Catharine Christina took off and John took up with Ann Clemens who looked after his son, while he went off sealing. I believe he is a different John McNally from the one who came south with the Cummings - no word about him being a convict - that's why I think that - no real proof of anything mind you! I know I know - you can all prove differently from various musters - maybe! Me I like it - only one problem - Catharine is four years out in age - What is four years between friends! Hypothesizing again!!

While away I did not rest on my laurels - (because as someone put it -'if you are resting on your laurels, you're wearing them in the wrong place!') I have written a 3000 word synopsis of these two threads - mostly from memory so will need to check lots of things. What I did wonder as I wrote was "could Catharine given 'unmarried' at Thomas's baptism because she wasn't married to his father - i.e. Thomas Snr." Yes, another Wiggy flight of fancy - I quite like flights of fancy you may have noticed. But I also quite like the idea that that was the reason for the 'unmarried'. You may all jump up and down and negate etc - but I know where I've flown to - and you may not be able to retrieve me!!

I honestly can't keep up with all the Rooks and Catharines floating around so I won't even try - I don't know where she came from - but I don't think she was a convict and I do think we are going round in circles of increasing difficulty which may not be the answer! It is getting too complicated. The answer has got to be simpler - hasn't it??? Having said that, carry on looking - but I'm going to stay simple I do believe, and stay with the family history until you all prove me wrong. Talk about a cop out:
I ask for your assistance then jump when the going gets hard - no that's not it! It is just too complicated for my little brain -
I didn't even walk to Sealers Cove to commune with the rocks there - they may have been able to deliver up some thoughts about John McNally, sealer of these shores, too!

Good to see you back on the job David!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Sunday 07 February 10 05:49 GMT (UK)

Yes,you too, Wiggs

Did you miss the bit where the parents of a Catherine Rook born 1793 were married at Millbrook ( Hampshire)in 1792- got to be worth a frisson or two

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 07 February 10 05:49 GMT (UK)

Welcome back Wiggy,

Did you by any chance get a copy of that 1820 christening record for Thomas ;D ... I am curious as to the entry immediately before and immediately after it ... I would expect to find a page full of entries i.e. at least 12 different christenings recorded on the one page......., all possibly performed by Rev Knopwood, .... VDL was operating under NSW regulations in 1820, and parish records for christenings were meant to be "transmitted" on a quarterly basis to the "head office" parish ....

Also, Wiggy, If its only one entry on that one page, do you know who provided (and when) that christening information to the Hobart Archives ....

Many Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Sunday 07 February 10 05:58 GMT (UK)

Whole page of people all christened by Rev Knopwood - its real - I didn't dream it! And yes I did get a copy!

Only a little frisson David! Don't like the timing much - only when applied to Catharine Morrison - because that doesn't involve getting her into the colony!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 07 February 10 06:19 GMT (UK)

Hi all,

I've just checked one of my own forebears, born in Sydney NSW 1809, remembering that the mother was not married to the father when the child was born (they married when the child was a teenager ;D,) ... there are 20 names on the record from the parish register... the page is around foolscap size and the details reading across the page are in the following order

Child's Christian name (names), then Son (or Dau) of ...... (names the child's FATHER showing his first and last name and mother showing mother's first, middle and last name) followed by "born" and the day, month and year. Also, written above the mother's names it says "Baptised" followed by the date (day, month, year).

When I then obtained the NSW BDM certificate of that Early Church Record, I got one A4 document, typed up, and it did NOT note the marital status of the child's parents ..... in fact it had less information that the parish records .... which were only supplied to the NSW BDM after its formation in the 1850's ....

I have other examples from those early penal times, but the one above is for a child born out of wedlock .... although there is NO mention that the mother was unmarried ...

PS, just reading your post, re whole page of people all christened by Rev Knopwood .... so please, who was name above and also name below .... could they have been acquaintances of Catharine, could there be clues to check .....

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Sunday 07 February 10 06:30 GMT (UK)

Sorry, christened 18th Dec., born 14th Nov, got it round the wrong way!

Name above: Eliza, born 27th Nov, daughter of William and Elizabeth, (?DEnnett or Demmatt - hard to read) married in Sydney, etc.

Below: Jane, born 11th Nov, daughter of John and Catharine Ann, Wood, married, R Knopwood.

Both the above baptised on same day.

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 07 February 10 06:37 GMT (UK)

Ta Wiggy,

If you have scanned it, perhaps you can save a second copy of that scan, then crop it to show the bit that's hard to read and attach the cropped bit here on this thread ... we can try to decipher it .... Also, there's a whole board on RChat just for deciphering old handwriting ;D

In mean time I'll try to find out any other info about the names mentioned for those other services of that same day ;D

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 07 February 10 06:41 GMT (UK)

Also,

David, here's mention in the Syd Gaz of the arrival of that vessel in Dec 1825 re Captain Rook ... I've not yet looked for mention of his fate in the VDL papers

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/2184878 Syd Gaz Monday 19 December 1825

Cheers JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 07 February 10 06:47 GMT (UK)

Hi all,

I think the line above Thomas' christening would be DENNETT as there's a marriage in 1813 registered at St Phillips Sydney for William DENNETT and Elizabeth GARLAND, also children with same surname and same parents first name from 1810 to 1813 ....

Now, were either of these names on the Musters in VDL, and etc ;D oh and also .... are they candidates for "prying eyes"

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 07 February 10 06:54 GMT (UK)

And also,

The NSW Col Sec papers has a William Dennett with land grant in VDL and he got an absolute pardon in Sept 1810, and he was ex the Royal Admiral in 1800.... and of course, on a quick online search, not finding anything on Elizabeth Garland ... her being a female and we know what finding records for females in penal NSW is like .... afterall we are nearly 60 pages into the search for Catharine ;)

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 07 February 10 06:58 GMT (UK)

errrrrrrrr

Did you know that William DENNETT's pardon (of 17/9/1810) seems to be associated with NORFOLK ISLAND .... its on the main State Archives, under Tickets of Leave etc 1810-1819 ....

That's another NI link to Catharine Christiana McNally ....

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: regross on Sunday 07 February 10 07:17 GMT (UK)

Wiggy,
I know you want Thomas to be fathered by Ransom but I feel the contenets of teh will virtually rule out that possibility.

I know you won't like it ::)

Have we decided yet whether it was Ransom or McNally who had the impediment to a marriage between them 8)

The death in 1825 of William Rook interests me. Could he have been Catharine's impediment? By the time of his death her relationship with Ransom was well accepted and there would have ben no need to change anything. It would also leave her free to marry Steiglitz. :D

Robyn

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Sunday 07 February 10 07:38 GMT (UK)

Sorry JM - don't have a scanner - I take photos of photos - and the photographic people don't like them as the definition isn't good enough!

Wiggy

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 07 February 10 12:53 GMT (UK)

Hi All,

Just to recall ....

The impediment was with Catharine rather than with Thomas .... at least that's how I read this newspaper article ... Open Letter to Gov Arthur .... prying eyes dobbed several couples in .... not just Thomas .... its in Friday 3 June 1825 Hobart Town Gazette and Van Diemen’s Land Advertiser pages 3 & 4

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/123597

I'm of the view that it was Catharine Christiana McNally who was on that vessel Perserverence in May 1811 ... errrrr .... in late 1700's it had been under the command of Amasa Delano, and had been in VDL before settlement ! And had been to NI, and in 1804 it had left PJ to sail to Chile, and errr .... 17 convicts had smuggled on board !

I am of the view that Thomas Ransom is unlikely to be the father of her son .... I am of the view that the bonds made on NI between those convicted women and men thus gave them the unspoken reasons to provide Catharine with comfort, love, compassion and protection. To me, the owner of the "prying eyes" only knew one small part of the jigsaw, while the former NI inhabitants deliberately chose to "close ranks" around Thomas and Catharine.... they protected their own ...

Perhaps Catharine lost track of Mr NcNally (he of several possible aliases, but with skills that included pilotage of Newcastle NSW) .... If Catharine lost track of him, then it would perhaps be around 11 (or was that actually 4 and just mistranscribed ) 11 years would not stop him being a possible father for Ann, but four years .... errrr 1825 less 4 .... that puts him in the picture as the father of Catharine's son. Mcguire .... alias McNally, Macannally, Wilson et al .... one man with a love of the sea ...

If Rev Knopwood asked Catharine (at the baptism) are your married, or what's your husband's name .... HOW WOULD YOU ANSWER if you were Catharine ....
a) I don't know if I am married .... b) I don't know my husband's actual name ... he's had so many aliases ... or c) I'm living with Mr Ransom at the moment and he wants me to say "he's the father" ....

And so if you were Rev Knopwood, what would you then record for the name of the child's father .... The Rev'd seems to have taken the easy option .....

PS, as an aside, did you notice that Captain Rook was on the brig Elizabeth on Tuesday 17 January 1826 when it sailed into PJ with over 4200 seal furs .. ie after the reports of his death ;D were received in Dec 1825 ...

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Sunday 07 February 10 21:29 GMT (UK)

JM,
Yes i found that 1826 reference last night for W Rook arriving in 1826- a corpse do you think- or was he frostbitten but the news of his demise greatly exaggerated- I had a date of1827 in my mind from my previous Rook trawls, but...
I like the concept of Unmarried being not married to Thomas, but why would she not give his name as father in that case- many in those circs did?

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 07 February 10 23:15 GMT (UK)

Hi there,

MCNALLY adding to the info about James McGuire, alias McNally and thinking about the Catherine McGwire in the Muster in VDL ...

18 April 1804 at Lancester ....four men tried and sentenced to 7 years transportation, the four arrived in PJ in 1806. They were:

William PERRIGOE, John CUNLIFFE, John QUIN, and James McGUIRE als McNALLY ....

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Sunday 07 February 10 23:26 GMT (UK)

Quote from: davclem on Sunday 07 February 10 21:29 GMT (UK)

JM, Yes i found that 1826 reference last night for W Rook arriving in 1826- a corpse do you think- or was he frostbitten but the news of his demise greatly exaggerated- I had a date of1827 in my mind from my previous Rook trawls, but...
I like the concept of Unmarried being not married to Thomas, but why would she not give his name as father in that case- many in those circs did? David

Perhaps the Captain was errr .... Jack Frost .... for a few weeks ....

;D Knopwood recorded "unmarried" ... twas not necessarily Catharine's words...

Ummm.... Wiggy, please consider asking someone locally to scan that record so you can at least have a legible copy on your puter .... and how does Knopwood spell Catharine Christiana McNally's three names please .... ;D

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Monday 08 February 10 00:12 GMT (UK)

JM,
Congratulations POST 413 and previous re James McGuire alaias Mcnally- major find.

However, my take on Catherine McGuire remains that she is the daughter of Julia ( per Calcutta 1803) and Robert McGuire, as per 1818 and 1822 Musters, and that she is not relevant.

If we assume Our Catherine was nee X and married a McNally, of all the candidates to date Catherine Rook seems to be the most probable becuase of the Perservance connection. But he was a James McNally- which still fits with VDL because there was a James McNally there 1818 plus at Port Dalrymple, but it eliminates the Cummings scenario because his McNally and wife was John ,as was the McNally birth in 1811. However there remains the issue of Boddingtons, because John McNally 1819 at PD was shown per Boddingtons, while Boddingtons list shows James McNally, who was also at PD, and neither are Fortune and Alexander McNally, so we now have 3 mcNallys , who need to be treated seperately and pinned down for elimination purposes.

Off for the day now- solve it by this evening ,please

David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 08 February 10 00:20 GMT (UK)

Hi there,

Errr .... Rev Knopwood married Robert McGuire and MISS Julia Hopley in VDL 28 Aug 1817 as per The Hobart Town Gazette and Southern Reporter Saturday 6 September 1817

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/652956

This would concur with David's view that Catherine McGuire is not relevant ;D

Cheers, JM (errr .... solve it by this evening ::) .... I think the NSW State Records may have the info about the James McGuire alias McNally ... and perhaps Wiggy needs to order them by snail mail .... ;D

MODIFYING TO ADD Wondering who was the Peter McGuire who supplied 102 bushels of wheat to Hobart Town's stores and is mentioned in The Hobart Town Gazette and Southern Reporter of Saturday 29 March 1817 ;D, also do we know how Robert McGuire (husband of Julia Hopley) got to VDL .... ???

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 08 February 10 00:44 GMT (UK)

Hi there,

Re the chap on the Boddingtons .... possibly an alternative spelling for him on 1811 muster in NSW James McInnelly he was tried in Aug 1792 at Autrim ;D sentence was 7 years

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: davclem on Monday 08 February 10 00:57 GMT (UK)

But JM , if robert Mcguire and Julia were not married until 1817, then Catherine Macguire would not be listed as a Free Woman in 1818, she would be a child, even if Robert and Julia had been living together since 1804, Catherine would only be 14- sorry, i should have done the maths- does that bring her back into play as a wife of James MCGuire who is either not in the colony or is not in Hobart?

I'm off now, truly
David

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 08 February 10 01:13 GMT (UK)

Umm

1806 Muster, there's a Catherine McGuire, wife of (ie shown as UX) Peter McGuire .... Catherine was ex the Glatton ;D

Cheers, JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 08 February 10 01:19 GMT (UK)

Umm,

Catherine McGuire, a free woman on that muster in 1818 ..... I think there's good possible that could well be Catharine Christiana McNally .... err.... any sign of a child, perhaps Ann ....

Cheers,

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 08 February 10 02:21 GMT (UK)

Umm, 1825 ... and Robert McGuire .... and publican's licences
(the prying eyes issue that seems to be at the origins of the reasons for raising the impediment for Catharine McNally... )

That Robert McGuire would have known Thomas Ransom ... even if only at licence hearings over those years, .... and most likely (almost certainly) would have known that Catharine was NOT Thomas Ransom's legal wife... and possibly that same Robert McGuire or his wife Julia may have known all about the father of Thomas McNally born 1820 ....

There's the licencing of a Rob. McGuire of the Coach and Horses in Elizabeth St Hobart Town.... in the Gaz of Saturday 22 October 1825 http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8790321

Here's a link showing the dilemma confronting Lt. Govr Arthur as researched by a chap interested in The Bush Inn... http://members.dodo.com.au/~tassietales/03.html .... There was BIG TROUBLES for Arthur .... the regulations were not taking into account the administrative boundaries even within the County of Buckinghamshire .... ;D

On that link there's several interesting pages explaining the VDL difficulties relating to issuing licences in that very year .... Apparently one of the regulations required the signature of a government official and that position had not yet been created in VDL ... ;D Several extracts from Arthur's letters are cited ...

"...But the 5th clause enacts that, “before any licenses shall be valid for any purposes.” the same shall be countersigned by the Commissary of Civil Accounts for this Island; and there is no such Officer here. " ... No wonder that Prying Eyes was making a mountain out of a mole hill .....

Cheers, JM .... I'm off to confront a mole hill of tasks around here, before they become a mountain ... I'll keep checking the thread, but its VERY VERY long, perhaps there ought to be a new thread with links back to these two threads, and with a summary ....

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: majm on Monday 08 February 10 11:06 GMT (UK)

I'm tidying up my scribbled notes, and noticed I had a newspaper reference for Macguire

Here tis

Perhaps we can eliminate one male as a candidate for the impediment .... this particular one was a tall thin man by the name of John Macguire ... Ten to the gallows on Monday 17 Dec 1827 as reported in the HTC of 22 Dec 1827...

http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4225435

They were harsh times ....

JM

Title: Re: Searching for origins of: MCNALLY, Catharine Christiana
Post by: Wiggy on Monday 08 February 10 21:31 GMT (UK)

Re post 414:
JM, Rev Knopwood spells her as - Catherine McNally. He doesn't use her middle name.

And YES this thread is getting very long - but (and I'm laughing so don't take offence!!) don't blame me!!! ;) Not for the last several pages anyway! You all have so much to add wile I run along behind trying to keep up!!

To start another thread is an idea - but I think I would start it the same way as this one - thinking about this!

Wiggy

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