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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Reiver on Saturday 10 October 09 12:55 BST (UK)
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Could anyone tell me, please. where Mill Bank was in the Township of Butterworth, Rochdale?
Sarah Ainsworth of that address married Frederick Law in 1838. Her father was Edward Ainsworth. Up to 1827 they had lived at Wicken Hall at Ogden when Edward sold it.
Regards
Reiver
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Hi,
I have found a Mill Bank to the NE of Rochdale between Littleborough and Sowerby Bridge ???
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&cr=countryUK%7CcountryGB&q=millbank%20rochdale&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl
There is also some information on Genuki relating to Butterworth:-
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Butterworth/
Sorry its not much.
Luzzu
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Many thanks Luzzu for your help.
Initially I was expecting it to be South of Rochdale. However looking at other bits of information I have suggest it may well be where you have found it.
My regards
Reiver
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Any indicator of where in Mill Bank it was?
I could have a look when I walk the dog.
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Thanks Pauline
I think I have found it on the 1860 OS Map at ot about where Luzzu logged ir. I have a feeling it may have been a single property. In fact using the link to Mill Bank that Luzzu gave Google provides a couple of adverts for The Mill Bank (Restaurant).
Could this be it? Will you thank your dog too if he finds it? :) ;)
Regards
Reiver
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I'd have said it was about 6 miles from Butterworth to Mill Bank o'er the tops, so not totally unreasonable to have gone over there to wed if you didn't take to the Halifax minister (3 miles to Halifax Parish Church).
Not that many substantial-sized buildings in it from that era though.
No clue as to the name of the place in Mill Bank though?
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Where did they marry?
Sorry- just found it in Rochdale but that only says Registrar attended so was it perhaps Butterworh?
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Hi,
I have not found anything else on Mill Bank but I did find this which might be of interest for you ???.
[PDF] BUTTERWORTH HALL IN 1840.' CHAPTER XVII. bfd J5ouaea and ecd ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
WICKEN HALL. None of the houses in the Haugh or Ogden are of very great antiquity, a large portion of the land being waste and common until comparatively ...
www.link4life.org/.../C542D176-B771-B43F-7265D85A9CF9133E.pdf - Similar
Sorry I can't get the link to work ::) but if you "Google" Wicken Hall, Ogden and look for something like the above in the results you will have not trouble finding it and the link should work from Google
It is an extract from a book about old houses and old families and on page 46 of the PDF it does mention Wicken Hall and the Ainsworth family.
Just thought it would be of interest.
Luzzu
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Hi Luzzu,
I was just going to look for that - I had read it the other day when I first started looking. ;)
I think it said in there that someone died at Pit Bank near Oldham (this is from memory though).
Also in 1841 Edward Ainsworth and family are next door to the Laws in Salford - is that the father, Reiver?
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I have seen all the baptisms at Ogden, so even if they moved away, they have used the church as a family church.
Eliza, born 1831 shows Manchester as place of birth on 1851 census.
1851 HO107; Piece: 2241; Folio: 452; Page: 34
Pit Bank House Oldham
Eliza Ainsworth niece 19 yrs b Manchester
Penelope Parker 21 yrs house servant b Newcastle
Rosa Ann Book 26 yrs -do- b Yorkshire
The entry above- with a line drawn to separate from this entry, is for:
Bank Street
Hannah Seville Annuitant b Leeds with a daughter and 2 sons.
I'm not sure that this entry is anything to do with Eliza and I may be digressing anyway or totally off track- sorry. ::)
(I was really trying to find out where the Ainsworths were giving as their place of birth on censuses).
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I'll try to stop now.
In the article, I think it said that Edward died at Pit Bank. ** Just re-read the article- it says that Edward sold Wicken Hall to James Grimshaw and Edward died 1841 at Pit Bank. However, with this large family, Reiver, I don't know if this is your Edward or an uncle.
The following then relates to the Edward who is living beside Sarah and Frederick Law in 1841 in Salford.
I have found two of the other daughters of Edward, I think, living with Jesse Ainsworth and wife in Birkenhead in 1851. Ellen is born Rochdale and Ann F is born Manchester.
No relationship is given but they are 'gentlewomen' and he is an 'esquire' as occupations.
141 has Jesse and Hannah living at Pit Bank, Oldham so for my part, as an Oldhamer, the mystery is solved.
Sadly, though - not for Mill Bank. :-\
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Many many thanks to you all for becoming involved in the quest :) :)
Edward Ainsworth and family lived at Wicken Hall as did his father before him. Sarah - who married Frederick Law - was his eldest child. Wicken Hall was sold in 1827 and Edward died in late 1841. He, his wife and members of the family are buried in the chapel graveyard of the Ogden Particular Baptist Chapel of which they were members.
Mention has been made of Jesse Ainsworth. He was Edward's brother and lived at Pit Bank (Hall), Oldham.
Sarah married Frederick Law in June 1838.
She was living 'Mill Bank in the township of Butterworth'
He was living at 'Hamer Cottage in the township of Wardle and Wardle
The marriage took place in 'The Providence Chapel, District of Rochdale'
I knew that Pit Bank was a large property so thought that Mill Bank may be as well. I thought that maybe Mill Bank was where Edward and family were living after being at Wicken Hall. Is the Mill Bank found too near Sowerby Bridge to be in Butterworth township?
I have found (in 1841) Edward and family living next door to Frederick Law and family at Ordsall Terrace, Salford.
Regards
Reiver
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Hi again,
I was hoping that Mill Bank was mistaken for Pit Bank when she married but as she states Butterworth it doesn't look like it.
However, a puzzle is that the younger children in Edward's family state that they were born in Manchester- and that is around 1827-1831.
However, they could have moved back.
I wonder if there is anything in their baptism records with an 'address'. Parish records are so varied - some give lots of details- others the bare minimum.
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Hi,
I did check the 1841 and 51 street indexes for Rochdale which includes Butterworth and there was no Mill Bank listed. :'(
Mo
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In Pigot and Slater's 1841 Directory of Manchester and Salford, in the Rochdale section of the directory, Edward Ainsworth, flannel manufacturer is listed at Mill Bank. There are no other entries for Mill Bank, which suggests that it is a single property rather than a hamlet.
I found this on www.historicaldirectories.org
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That's good news alpine cottage ;) Just have to find it now :D
I eventually found it at that reference but you can't really tell whether it is just a business address or home address - do you think that?
Also it doesn't say where in Rochdale area it is, so I wonder if it wasn't in Butterworth township :-\
We know anyway that in 1841 he was living in Salford and died the same year in Oldham so ...
Reiver - do you have his death certificate? I suppose though it would only have place of death rather than an address.
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Between 1827 and 1831 when their last child was born, all were baptised at Ogden Baptist Chapel. Did you find them locally, Heywood?
Finding Edward Ainsworth at Mill Bank in Rochdale in the 1841 Directory suggests that the Mill Bank near Sowerby Bridge is not the right one.
I understand Directories may well be maybe a year out of date and so for 1841 read say 1840. It is beginning to look as though Mill Bank in Rochdale was home to Sarah, her parents and her brothers and sisters. She would be about 22 when she married in 1838 and she was the eldest.
Perhaps an email to Touchstones Library at Rochdale may resolve the whereabouts of Mill Bank.
Regards
Reiver
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I found the baptisms in Family Search and then I was checking the census info for places of birth. The younger ones give Manchester, although they were baptised at Ogden which makes me think that it was the family church even if they weren't living in the immediate area.
When I was reading earlier, Henry (?) Kelsall who was married to Lydia Ainsworth (mentioned in that book extract) was a benefactor of the new Ogden chapel even though Henry and Lydia lived in the centre of Rochdale. (I just tell this anecdote to support my theory that Edward was living away for quite some time. - Could be totally off track though ;))
I think an email to Library would be good and if possible if they could just check one of the later baptisms to see if there is an address.
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- - - - - and again :) :) I've just spotted Heywood's latest post.
No, I havn't got Edward's death certificate. I've always felt comfortable with my Ainsworth family - date of death and where. Instead got those I'm less sure of :) :)
Regards
Reiver
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- - - - - and again :) :) I've just spotted Heywood's latest post.
No, I havn't got Edward's death certificate. I've always felt comfortable with my Ainsworth family - date of death and where. Instead got those I'm less sure of :) :)
Regards
Reiver
Oh I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable with your family ;D ;D ;D
(All this just to find a house/place) ::)
I love it ;)
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I eventually found it at that reference but you can't really tell whether it is just a business address or home address - do you think that?
Also it doesn't say where in Rochdale area it is, so I wonder if it wasn't in Butterworth township :-\
No, you can't tell if it's home or business, but it was obviously a well enough known place that anyone using the directory would have known where to find Mill Bank. I don't know Rochdale and Butterworth, but at the top of that page in the directory, it says Rochdale and the following surrounding areas, then lists several other places, but not Butterworth. I suppose you could look at the total area covered by that Rochdale section and see if Butterworth lies within or outside it. Yes, you are correct that the entry would have been submitted for the directory in 1840, but you wouldn't put an entry into a directory if you planned very soon after to move house. Also, all the census for 1841 tells you is that on census night they were in Salford and the death cert registration district tells you that the death was (or should have) occured in that registration district - he may not have died at home in his own bed ;D
Talking of which, I'm off to mine now!
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Yes you are right I am making too many assumptions perhaps :o
However as the children were born Manchester, I was assuming that the family lived in or around there.
It has been documented that he died at Pit Bank House which was the home of his brother - which as you say he may have been visiting.
Mo couldn't find Mill Bank in street directory which points to it being a single building/house.
Good night ;D
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Hi
Is Bank Mill, Middleton too far over? (Thomas Ashton, 1829).
In this publication, Jesse Ainsworth, gentleman, is again at Pitt Bank, Oldham. (Pigot's 1829).
Best wishes
Emms
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I'm not sure where the reference to Alpine fits in this thread. Does it have anything to do with the Alpine restaurant an old house on the road between Ogden and Denshaw ?
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I'm not sure where the reference to Alpine fits in this thread. Does it have anything to do with the Alpine restaurant an old house on the road between Ogden and Denshaw ?
:D I was going to ask the same until I saw that Alpine doesn't know Rochdale or Butterworth. I would imagine that the building would have been Butterworth or very close to it anyway.
Are you in the area? We are just down the road from Denshaw towards Oldham.
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Hi Heywood
I'm round the corner on Buckstones Rd
Sue
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Hello neighbour ;D
(I'm Moorside - a bit closer to Derker than you and therefore Pit Bank House which sadly is no longer there :()
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I have been in touch with the local studies library at Rochdale but unfortunately they are unable to locate Mill Bank.
They were able however to add to my knowledge of the Ainsworts in the 1820s. It seems that they were at Hamer Hall - certainly in 1823.
Regards
Reiver
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Hello Reiver,
that's a pity :( On the other hand, now you know a bit more :D
There's not much about Hamer Hall by browsing but I have found Hamer Hall in 1851 - occupied by Thornton Littlewood and family (Flannel Manufacturer, Firm of 2 employing 192 men, 135 women, 12 boys, 26 girls.
At the same address but separate entry is a Richard Hurst and family, Cotton Spinner, Firm of 1 employing 40 men, 85 women, 41 boys, 35 girls.
Wonder what 'Firm of 2' etc means?
Looking Thornton L up in 1841, the address just says 'Howarth Cross'. I tried finding Hamer Hall etc by looking for other people in area, but they are at H C too :-\ Same place? ???
Howarth Cross seems to be on border of Butterworth. Hope that Mo may be able to look into this with street index.
regards
heywood
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I know I place great emphasis on the fact that the younger Ainsworth children have Manchester as place of birth, although baptised in Ogden.
However, Frederick and Sarah Law's child, Frederick was born 1839 in Rochdale.
Lancashire BMD has his birth as sub-registration district Wuerdle and Wardle which covered Hamer and you said that Frederick was living in Hamer Cottage at the time of marriage.
Just for information ::)
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Thanks Heywood
I knew that he was born in 1839 in Rochdale - but not where.
When I started many years ago I was given lots of details information by my mother's cousin. This was well before it became relatively easy to obtain certificates via computers.
Certificates then cost £13 each :) :)
You did say that the Ainsworth children claimed to have been born in Manchester. Which branch was this? Certainly I know that Abraham Stott and at least one one of his daughters lived in South Manchester in the early 1900s.
Still, Hamer Hall is becoming more intriguing. I know that Edward Ainsworth may well have had financial difficulties well before he sold Wicken Hall in 1827. But to move to Hamer Hall???. I believe it was 'Hamer Hall and Mill'. I wonder whether Mill Bank (mill bank) was a property associated with the Mill at Hamer. The Mill house?
Obviously more to find out. I do have one or two sources that may come good at the end of this week :)
Regards
Reiver
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Hello again,
I wondered the same too re Hamer/Mill Bank but can't find evidence. I went through the district covering Hamer Hall in 1851 but couldn't see anything re Mill Bank nor Hamer Cottage where Frederick Law was living. Lots of Hamer... houses for workers though on census.
Browsing 'Hamer Cottage' on internet reveals rehabilitation care home - in the right area but I assume rebuilt now.
There is this on Old Maps http://www.old-maps.co.uk/IndexMapPage2.aspx -you can see Hamer Hall/Mill/New Mill etc.
Re births:
1841 has Edward Ainsworth and family in next entry to Frederick Law and Sarah.
Of those children -see earlier posts:
1851- Eliza Ainsworth 19 yrs niece - born Manchester living at Pit Bank
1851 HO107; Piece: 2175; Folio: 208; Page: 56
(Lodgers in Birkenhead)
Ellen Ainsworth 23 yrs b Rochdale
Ann F -do- 22 yrs b Manchester
(with Jesse and Hannah Ainsworth)
the birthplaces of Ann and Eliza (the two youngest) indicate that the family may be in the Manchester area by 1830 ish although the baptisms are at Ogden still.
However Frederick and Sarah both seem to be in Rochdale area in 1838 - He in Hamer and her Butterworth. Now I think from reading that Butterworth/ Weurdle and Wardle abut each other in areas - intriguing :D
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Hello again,
I wondered the same too re Hamer/Mill Bank but can't find evidence. I went through the district covering Hamer Hall in 1851 but couldn't see anything re Mill Bank nor Hamer Cottage where Frederick Law was living. Lots of Hamer... houses for workers though on census.
Browsing 'Hamer Cottage' on internet reveals rehabilitation care home - in the right area but I assume rebuilt now.
There is this on Old Maps http://www.old-maps.co.uk/IndexMapPage2.aspx -you can see Hamer Hall/Mill/New Mill etc.
Re births:
1841 has Edward Ainsworth and family in next entry to Frederick Law and Sarah.
Of those children -see earlier posts:
1851- Eliza Ainsworth 19 yrs niece - born Manchester living at Pit Bank
1851 HO107; Piece: 2175; Folio: 208; Page: 56
(Lodgers in Birkenhead)
Ellen Ainsworth 23 yrs b Rochdale
Ann F -do- 22 yrs b Manchester
(with Jesse and Hannah Ainsworth)
the birthplaces of Ann and Eliza (the two youngest) indicate that the family may be in the Manchester area by 1830 ish although the baptisms are at Ogden still.
However Frederick and Sarah both seem to be in Rochdale area in 1838 - He in Hamer and her Butterworth. Now I think from reading that Butterworth/ Weurdle and Wardle abut each other in areas - intriguing :D
Who were the witnesses at Frederick and Sarah's marriage? Do they offer any clues? I was thinking that if she was staying with someone other than her parents, she may have them as a witness :-\
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Hello Reiver,
I don't know how wide you are casting your net but just an update on Ann F, Sarah's sister. Also you may have it from your relative but I found it interesting -being an Oldhamer ;D
1829- Ann Francis baptised Ogden
(I've already given her in 1841 and 1851)
1858- Marriage Ann Frances Ainsworth to James Yates
1861 RG9; Piece: 3018; Folio: 105; Page: 24
living with uncle Jesse and Hannah Ainsworth (James is a medical student)
Anne F born Salford 1832 ???
1871 RG10; Piece: 4101; Folio: 23; Page: 39
Annie T born 1829 Salford
James is a General Practitioner Graduate of Aberdeen
1881 RG11; Piece: 4079; Folio: 123; Page: 30
James is the Mayor of Oldham :D Married but no sign of Ann
1891 RG12; Piece: 3309; Folio 116; Page 31
James is married but - no sign of Ann
and the same for 1901.
They are living at Pit Bank all the time.
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Thanks Heywood for the extra detail.
As a Oldhamer (Old Hamer :) :) :) :) )you may wish to find out more about Jesse and Hannah who were at Pit Bank. If you do a visit to Oldham Library may be in order. It is a long time since I have been and so cataloguing / indexing may be completely different. But is was from the library that I found various newspaper articles about his 'antics' in and around. I know also he wed Hannah at Gretna Green. I think Edward had the foresight(?) to make her a Ward of Court and Jesse got into trouble.
Just a thought :) :)
Regards
Reiver
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my great great grandfather Jonathan Woolfenden died at pit bank, 1850
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I have Sarah Ainsworth and Frederick Law in my family tree. Frederick had brother, Thomas b 1813 m Elizabeth Herring b 1814. On marriage cert for Thomas and Elizabeth they were both living at Hamer Mill. Thomas and Frederick were born in Rotherham. Their Parents were Thomas b 1781 and Martha b 1788. On 1861 census Frederick and Sarah had living with them Sarah E Law their niece age 6 who was born in Auckland New Zealand. Sarah E was the daughter of John Hauge Law and his wife Ann who went to Australia in 1851 shortly after they married in Manchester and had daughter Marianne in Melbourne. They then went to Auckland and had 3 more Children the last one Annie was born after John Hague Law died in 1856. I believe Sarah E is actually Sarah Helen Law from birth cert obtained from New Zealand. I would be very interested to know more abou at the Ainsworth/Law connection. Regards B Law