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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Monmouthshire => Topic started by: sarenid on Wednesday 07 October 09 13:51 BST (UK)
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I am trying to trace William Matthews b 1851 Pontypool according to the census of 1901. In this census he is living with wife Mary b 1851 Llantrisant Glamorgan daughter Edith A Baverstock b 1875 Abergavenny son-in-law Edward Baverstock and grandson Phillip Thomas Baverstock. I figured that the information on the census would make it a singe to go further back but this has not been the case. I have searched the censuses back to 1851 and although I have found possibilities for William Mary and Edith A I cannot find one which links them all.
I got hold of the marriage certificate thinking maybe that would have more information but other than confirming a date of 1875 for Edith Ann birth, which is also that given in the 1911 census for the Baverstock family, the only extra information is the middle name of George for William Matthews.
I also got the birth certificate for an Edith Ann Matthews b1878 Abergavenny (not many edith Matthews) but this lists her father as George Matthews and Mother as Mary nee Thomas. This does tally with censuses of 1881 and 1891 for a family in the area.
Has anyone any ideas as to how I can verify whether this family is the same given the different names and dates of birth? Incidentally Edith A Baverstock died 1913 and her age at death makes the year of birth 1878. Help please.
sarenid
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Ir would be helpful if you did list these census households with all Info.
Otherwise we'll be wasting time and effort replication what you already have.
Pauline
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Hi Sarenid
As you say, not many to choose from!
There are a lot of coincidences with the George and Mary family, so I would want to rule them out first.
What does the Marriage cert say about witnesses, father's occupation etc?
As Pauline mentions, the census details are helpful to see which ones you've chosen!
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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There are 2 concerning George and Mary:
1881 George Matthews b1851 Goytre Monmouth occupation: Farmer 98 Acres Res: Abergavenny
Mary Matthews B 1850 Glamorgan
Edith Matthews B 1879 Abergavenny
1891 George W Matthews b1851 Goytrey Monmouth Occupation: labourer Res: Trevethin
Mary Matthews b1849 Goytrey Monmouth
Edith A Matthews b1879 Abergavenny
1901 William Matthews b1851 Pontypool Monmouth Occupation Pit foreman below Res: Senghenydd
Mary Matthews b 1851 Llantrissant Glamorgan
Edith A Baverstock b 1875 Abergavenny
Earlier censuses for possibles are:
1851 Henry Matthews b1823 Llanbaddock Farmer 23 acres res: Goytrey
Sarah Matthews b1826 Panteague
William Matthews b1850 Goytrey
1871 Henry Matthews b1816 Llanbaddock Farmer 40 acres res: Mamhilad
Sarah Matthews b 1826 Panteg
George Matthews b 1851 Goytrey Also Emily 1657 Henry 1865 Hezekiah 1867
1851 Thomas Matthews b 1824 Llanover Miner Res: Trevethin
Mary Matthews b1826 Trevethin
William Matthews b1851 Trevethin
1871 Thomas Matthews b 1823 Llanover Miner Res Garndiffaith
Mary matthews b 1825 Trevethin
William Matthews b 1851 Trevethin Miner
Marriage certificate of Edith ann Matthews list father as William George Matthews Foreman Labourer?
Birth certificate Edith Ann Matthews 1878 lists father as George Matthews Railway Breaksman
Mother as Mary Thomas. found a index for marriage of George William Matthews 1871 in Abergavenny with Mary Thomas as one of two possible spouses. Many thanks for helping look into this.
sarenid
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Thanks for all that - sorry to be a pain, but can you tell us about the witnesses for the marriage please? Where and when were they married too?
Also the place of birth on the cert for Edith - it might match one of the census addresses.
On the face of it, George doesn't see like William but there's a shortage of volunteers for the job ...
;D
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Thanks for the help.
The Witnesses to the marriage are Henry G Barnes (I think) and George Jones. It took place in the registry off in the district of Pontypridd Edith Ann Matthews and family were already living in Senghenydd (no exact address given) but the address given on the census of 1901 is the same address in Senghenydd for the Baverstock family minus the Matthews in 1911 6 Station Road. If Edith Matthews had been born in 1878 then she would have been just 18 literally by 1 day. The birth certifcate gives her date of birth as 30 aug 1878. The date of the marriage is 31 aug 1896 is this just coincidence?
The address on the birth certificate is 70 Lower Monk Street Abergavenny. I know that doesn't match the possible address of George Matthews in 1881 but obviously they could have moved. I have to admit to not checking as yet the address against a census return. Must give that a try. best wishes Sarenid.
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I think I may have solved the birth date mystery. Edith Ann Mathews gave birth to my grandfather on 8 december 1896 so she would have been around 6 months pregnant in August 1896. Given the dates it appears likely they waited until the day after her 18th birthday to get married. Isn't it also true you had to have some form of special licence if the bride was under 21? In which case perhaps they claimed she was 21 in order to avoid the complications. She was living in Senghenydd so one would have thought she would get married there rather than going to Pontypridd. It would appear they kept up the pretence through 2 censuses and it was only on her death in 1913 where they correctly recorded her age as 35 giving her a birth year of 1878 that the truth came out. Does this seem reasonable? Sarenid
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Hi again
Yes, it does, although 21 was the legal age of majority so 18 wouldn't make any difference really.
I had another look last night and couldn't satisfy myself that I was looking at the right people! The 1861 census for this area is badly damaged, with some parts missing but that doesn't explain all the omissions.
I did wonder whether there was a second marriage in there somewhere ...
Confusing and probably needs a through look, which I haven't yet had time for.
A ;)
Edit: In Lower Monk St in 1881 is an Ann MORGAN, an unmarried grocer of 54 and her niece Edith JONES aged 8 and born Abergavenny. Just those two! Sadly no number for the house!
Note that one of the witnesses was a JONES - but don't hold your breath for my proving a connection!
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Hi
Have looked into all William Matthews born around 1851 in monmouthshire in C1851 and this is the result:
C1851 William & Ann Matthews with William age 6m Tredegar RD Abergavenny
C1861 Son living with parents Scholar
C1871 Son living with parents Puddler
C1891 Lodger Assistant Roller Iron works
C1901 Living with brother David and family Steel Worker
C1851 Thomas & Mary Matthews with William age 2m Trevethin RD Pontypool
C1871 living with parents garndiffaith Coal miner
C1881 Living with wife Sarah ann Barnsley Coal miner
C1891 Living with wife Sarah ann Barnsley Coal miner
C1901 Living with wife Sarah Ann Barnsley Coal miner
C1851 William & Elizabeth Mathews with William age 6 m St Mellons RD Cardiff
C1861 Living with parents Scholar
C1871 living with parents Labourer
C1881 living with Harriet General Labourer
C1891 living with Harriet Traffic Foreman
C1901 Head living with Harriet railway signalman
C1851 Henry & Sarah Matthews with William age 6 m Goytrey RD Pontypool
Birth index July Sept 1850 vol:26 p:176 Pontypool (George William Matthews)
C1871 Living with Parents Mamilhad Farmer's son (George)
Marriage index July - Sept 1871 Marriage Mary Thomas George William Mathews
C1881 Living with Mary and Edith llantillo pertholey farmer 98 acres (George)
C1891 living with Mary and Edith A Trevethin Labourer (George W Matthews)
C1901 living with Mary Edith Ann Edward Phillip Thomas Senghenydd Miner ?
C1851 William & Elizabeth Matthews with William (twin Ann Matthews) Age 1 m Lanorechva RD Pontypool
C1861 Ann is present but not william. In fact youngest son aged 1 called william so William born 1851 probably died.
C1851 John & Ann Matthews with William age 1 Risca RD Newport
C1861 Living with parents age 13 1848
C1871 possibibly living with wife Theresa although year of birth now 1845/6
Having difficulty following this William further but he doesn't seem particularly likely anyway, wrong place of birth and age is on old side.
The more I look into it the more likely George/William Matthews of Goytrey seems as the father of Edith Ann Baverstock nee Matthews.
What do you think? Sara
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Depends whether you want to prove anything or just guess!
Have you tried to trace the marriage witness BARNES?
I've got a few things to sort but hope to have another go later ...
Everyone else is very quiet - HELP YOU LOT!!
;D
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Hi
Over the weekend I have been looking up Henry G Barnes and George Jones. I can find no Barnes in Senghenydd but there is a Henry G Barnes who lived at 50 High street Pontypridd with his wife Lydia. He was a railway signalman in 1891 and 1901. He is around the same age as Edward Baverstock but I can find no obvious link. I have had no luck tracing Edward Baverstock on 1891 census so I can't see if there is any link there.
I also looked into a Henry G Barnes from Kinson Dorset but apart from age and birth county again I can find no obvious connection.
I also found a George Jones who was a miner and lived at 28 Union Street Abersychan when I looked a the map this seems very close to George W Matthews who lived at 80 High Street Abersychan. However, when I traced George Jones's family through to 1901 he is living in Cardiff and is now a grocer. So again a link but a very faint one.
I have also tried to trace back a John Hall although it looks more like Hale on the 1901 census for the Matthews and Baverstocks. He is down as a visitor which makes me wonder whether there is some connection. But without any family, rather like the witnesses I am finding it difficult to make further connections backwards.
Anyway thought I would update you and thanks for your help. Sara
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I just thought I would update you on further information I have collected. I sent off for the marriage certificate of George William Matthews. He married Mary Thomas on 5th August 1871. The fathers of the couple are Thomas Thomas farmer and Henry Matthews farmer. In 1871 living apparently next to each other in mamhilad are the Thomas and Matthews families. Thomas Thomas farming 101 acres and Henry Matthews 40 or so acres
Thomas Thomas H Farmer b: 1814 Llantrissent Glamorganshire
Rachel Thomas W b: 1817 Llantrissent Glamorganshire
Ann Evans married Daughter b: 1843 Llantrissent Glamorganshire
Mary Thomas b:1849 Llantrissent Glamorganshire
William Thomas b: 1850 Llantrissent Glamorganshire
Rachel Thomas b: 1857 Mamhilad Monmouthshire
Barbara Thomas b: 1859 Mamhilad Monmouthshire.
+ 2 Evans grandsons
George Matthews is living presumably next door or next farm with his father Henry and mother Sarah as previously listed.
I have found a census of 1851 in Lantrissant glamorgan which lists Thomas Thomas a farmer with his wife Rachel and children Ann Margaret Mary and William. The ages tally within a year. although Thomas's seems to be out by rather more. His year is 1820 rather than 1814.
I can't find a census for 1861 but I presume by that time they were living in Mamhilad and so are part of the missing 1861 census for that area.
One of the witnesses to the marriage is Ann Evans which would fit with her being Mary Thomas's elder sister. They were married at the Wesleyan Methodist Chapel in, I think, Castle Street though the s is not very clear. According to the directory there was a Wesleyan Methodist Chapel in Castle Street Abergavenny. They are put down as both living in Llanellen rather than Mamhilad. The other witness is a Thiza (what it looks like) Powell but on a first trawl though the censuses for 1871 I can't find any likely candidates.
In the 1901 census Mary Matthews puts her place of birth as Llantrisant Glamorgan so this would provide a tenuous link with Mary Thomas. In the censuses of 1881 she lists her birth as monmouthshire but in 1891 she does list her birthplace as glamorgan.
I did do a search in respect of John Hall and found a family based in Whitchurch Glamorgan which looked very possibly but again no obviousl link to the family he was visiting in 1901. Hope you don't mind me bouncing facts off you. Regards Sarenid
I can find no record of the baptism of Edith Ann in the records but it is possibly she was baptised in the same chapel in Castle Street which was round the corner from where the Matthews's were living at the time of her birth. Would records for this chapel be available anywhere?
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Hi Arranroots
Thought I might update you. I recently searched the 1911 census for a William Matthews born 1851 monmouthshire and low and behold one came up for that date born Goytrey. He was a widower working as a colliery labourer above ground. The 1901 address in Senghenydd by 1911 was occupied by Edith and Edward Baverstock with their children. It is the first census entry since 1851 with a William Matthews being born 1851 in Goytrey.
I also recently did a search on the monmouthshire site. In the buriel index for Goytrey there is a:
Matthews, Matilda, 1955, Jul, 30, Myrtle Cott Goytre,
Matthews, Sarah , 1919, Jan, 12, Myrtle Cottage Goytrey,
Matthews, Wm George, 1920, Sep, 29, Glan Ely Hos Pentwyn Farm,
Matilda and Sarah would be william matthews's sister and mother. I wondered whether the William George was Edith Matthews father (she died 1913) so his only relatives by that time would be his siblings but thus far I have been unable to trace a death index entry for either William Matthews or any combination thereof. However, I have to say I think given everything its is more likely than not George William Matthews is my gg grandfather. Am I grasping at straws?
thanks for the help Sarenid
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It does look like a good match.
Did you establish who William's father is (sorry a bit tired and not reading straight!) Just thinking that often sons with the same name as their fathers were known by their middle names - hence George?
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William father was Henry and I have been unable to establish who Henry's parents are as they don't come up on IGI. However, his mother's father was william wicks (weeks) so I assumed the William came from her. Sarah's mother was a widow living with them in 1851. I am not sure when William died possibly just before the census as there are 3 william Wicks deaths registered in Abergavenny jan mar 1851.
Henry Matthews was born in Llanbaddock according to the various censuses and Sarah Wicks was born Panteg. I have found information on her family on IGI. I do not know therefore where the George comes from?
regards sarenid
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Hi Sara,
I am looking for the a John Matthews b.1825 Mamhilad and his wife Ann b. 1835 Trevethin. I am wondering if they are members of your Matthews family. I can't find John and Ann until the 1871 Census when they are running the Bridgend Inn in Cwmffrwdoer. There is no sign in the previous censuses. The family rumour is that John's Mother may have been thrown off the farm by her brothers when John's Father died. You know how these stories become elaborated. I'd be grateful if you could give some pointers to the Matthews family in Mamhilad so that I can trace them back. They had William in abt 1858 and Thomas in abt 1860.
Regards Allen
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Hi Allan
I have had a look for your Matthews and although I do not think they are the same family as mine, I might have found some baptisms re John and the marriage of John's parents. In the parish records of Mamhilad are:
Marriage - Thomas Matthews of Mamhilad & Ann Davies of Mamhilad 16 March 1820; both signed with a mark witnesses; John Hughes & ? Davies (x)
Baptisms:
Jane Daughter of Thomas & Annie Mathews Labourer 13 December 1820
William son of Thomas & Anne Mathews, labourer, 17 March 1822
Thomas son of Thomas & Anne Mathews, labourer 11 September 1823
John son of Thomas & Ann Matthews, labourer 23 January 1825
In 1841 there is a census entry for a John Matthews born 1826 within the household of maltster Thomas & Racheal Davies in Llanvrechva, Pontypool - might be worth a further look as Thomas Davies would be around the right age to be an uncle perhaps.
My Matthews family did not move to Mamhilad from what I can determine until later (1850/60) - Henry Matthews being born and baptised in Usk illigitimate son of Elizabeth Matthews and John Jenkins (this parentage is born out by his marriage certificate) and Sarah Wicks being born and baptised in Panteg.
Sorry not to have been able to help further.
Regards
Sarenid
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Hi Sarenid,
Thank you for all of that. The link to Publicans and Maltsters is a strong one and the there is John Matthews with Mark Williams and Anne(Matthews), his sister, in the Masons Arms Caerleon in 1841. Looks like a trip to the Parish Register. Until then I will follow all the tracks until something clicks.
Best Regards
Allen