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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Earle on Saturday 03 October 09 11:02 BST (UK)
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Seek birth/baptismal info concerning a Godfrey or Geofrey Wood(s) born in the Llansilin area of Denbighshire c1836.
Thank you.
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Hi Earle
He's definitely down as Godfrey Woods, aged 35, a harpist on the 1871 in Flintshire:
RG10/5669/54/24
I've checked the Llansilin records (they are on the IGI www.familysearch.org ) for around about his birth year but he's not listed. This may indicate that his family were non-conformists or he was baptised eleswhere.
Have you found him on the 1841/1851 censuses which might give an indication of his parents. Also, his marriage certificate to Mary A would give his father's name.
The North Wales BMD site have a marriage for Geoffrey Woods with a Mary Anne Simon on the same page - St Mwrog and St Mary, Llanfwrog, 1857.
The full GRO ref for this is:
Sept quarter, 1857, Ruthin, vol 11b, page 471 (his name written as Geofrey Woods)
This location fits with the birthplace of the eldest child, Elija) - aged 12, b. Ruthin on the 1871.
The family seem to have been mainly in Flintshire over the period 1861-1871.
Regards
Gadget
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Ahhhh - Just found this on the Nat Library site:
(3) THOMAS WOOD , b. in a barn at Llan-y-bydder, and d. at Ruthin at the age of 95. He had nine children, among whom may be mentioned (a) ROBERT WOOD, a harpist frequently encountered at Glanbrân; (b) JEREMIAH WOOD, harpist, buried at Llanrwst; (c) ADAM WOOD, harpist (father of the harpist GODFREY WOOD), who was buried at S. Asaph; (d) SAIFORELLA WOOD, mother of the MATTHEW (‘MATCHO’) WOOD, from whom Sampson obtained much of his recorded gipsy folk-lore — Matthew d. at Bala, 2 March 1929, ‘aged 86,’ and was buried at Llanycil.
my emphasis
http://yba.llgc.org.uk/en/s-WOOD-SIP-1500.html
He is also mentioned on the Romanygenes site, but I can't get the link to work!
romanygenes2.webeden.co.uk/walesscotsirish/4526932613
I found some interesting bits about the Wood(s) family recently:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,407908.0.html
I wonder if he was part of this line ?
Gadget
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Hello Gadget,
You are a gem.
Godfrey (Geofrey on marriage cert.) did in fact marry Mary
Anne Simon on 7 Jul 1857. I have a copy but therein is my problem - all printed references to Godfrey and his brother Elijah list the father as Adam Wood as you show in above message. But, Godfrey & Elijah's marriage certs. list their father as Jeremiah Wood. I have been trying to obtain birth records to clarify who the real father is.
I have not found Godfrey or Elijah (b. c1840) in the 1841 to 1861 censuses.
The above brothers are descendants of the Abram Wood gypsy family line.
Much appreciate your help.
Earle
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Hi Earle
You've no doubt come across these baptism at Llansilin (IGI extracted):
24th July 1821 Mary d/o Thomas Woods and Salvina
9 July 1823 John s/o Thos Woods and Salvina
1st October 1823 Theophilus s/o Jeremiah Woods and Anne
27 April 1828 Robert s/o William Wood and Eleanor
I'll check through my earlier Llansilin records (IGI online ones are only from 1813) and get back if I can find anything.
From the ref given in my previous message ( http://yba.llgc.org.uk/en/s-WOOD-SIP-1500.html ), it would seem that there are at least two Jeremiah Woods - the son of Valentine Woods( John Abraham Woods) and the other would be the son of Thomas Woods, son of Valentine, and brother to Adam.
I'm wondering if it might be best to see if this thread might be better moved to the Travellers Board as there are some people there who are far more knowledgeable about the Woods family than I.
I'll PM one of the Mods for advice.
Regards
Gadget
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Hi again
I've checked out all my Llansilin records but can only find one ref to Wood(s):
Baptism 1st Feb 1770 Melliah d/o John Wood. Abode - Sychtyn
There is a Llansilin History Society. Contact details are given here:
http://www.local-history.co.uk/Groups/salop.html
They have been very helpful to me in the past and I'm sure someone there will know of the Woods family.
If I can find anything else, I'll be in touch.
Regards
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
I have sent an email to Mr. Burton at the Llansilin History Society concerning Godfrey Wood and family. Will keep you informed.
Best wishes,
Earle
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Hi Earle,
With reference to your Reply #3, all speculation, including most of what is in print, emanates from Dr John Sampson's ABRAM WOOD pedigree which was written up by E O Winstedt in JGLS (3) 13. It contains numerous errors, some pointed out to me by descendants of those who are named.
The errors made at the time of publication are caused largely by Sampson no longer being alive to supervise it but other errors were made in the collection of the material. For example, Manfri Frederick Wood, whom there is no reason to doubt, wrote that his grandfather, Frederick Wood, was wrongly omitted from the ABRAM WOOD pedigree.
There is more about this in The A TO Z Of Gipsy Genealogies: Part One which is a free download provided you do not pass it on to anybody else.
So, with respect to the marriage certificates of Elijah and Geofrey WOODS, the details come from a primary source so they are much more likely to be correct than from the recollection of a distant relative like Matthew WOOD.
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Hi again Gadget,
Contacted Mr. Burton and he was not able to clarify the problem of Elijah & Godfrey's parents. He put me in touch with Lord Thomas who has a connection with the Wood family. He sent me a copy of the Wood pedigree by Dr.
Sampson which shows Adam & Ellen Wood as parents of
Elijah & Godfrey. He stated that, "probably nobody knew
who was whose father."
I am now back where I started - but, your rationale makes the most sense. If I could just find their birth/baptismal
records.
Thanks again for your excellent assistance.
Earle
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Hi Earle :)
Glad you've got some leads.
I'll keep my eye open for any baptisms in the adjoining parishes. Although they might not have been baptised.
Gadget
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Hi Earle,
I am not part of Romanygenes but the site owner kindly passed on your request for a copy of Part One of my A To Z. You are most welcome.
I do not think there is much room for making everybody right, Earle. The marriage certificates say that Elijah Wood and Godfrey/Geofrey Wood were sons of Jeremiah so that must be is true. There are cases where the father's name given at baptism differs from the one given at marriage but in this case there is no baptism to contradict the marriage details. Hearsay is not as strong as an official register entry therefore, in this respect, the Abram Wood pedigree is plain wrong until evidence to the contrary is located.
As for their baptisms, since they were not from their mother's first marriage (to William WOOD) you might find them under a different surname even though everybody is called WOOD or WOODS. The chances of them not being baptised is close to zero.
It occurred to me that Thomas WOOD who is present with Elijah in 1861 is not on the Abram Wood pedigree and perhaps he is the same person as Godfrey. If so, it gives an alternative place of baptism but it would mean finding an explanation for the absence of his wife and first two children.
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Hello king otg,
Thank you for your response.
I agree with your and Gadget's (reply #7) rationale that a primary source is more valid than a pedigree compiled by several others.
Where did you find, "Thomas Wood who is present with Elijah in 1861." I cannot find the two together.
If Jeremiah Wood is the father of Elijah & Godfrey - then which Jeremiah is it? Jeremiah (Bach Gogerddan) had a son Jeremiah as did Thomas & Sylvaina.
I would appreciate any help you can provide.
Earle
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Hi Earle,
I can answer the first question but will have to check my files for the second. There were, as you say, a number of Jeremiahs.
Thomas WOODS age 25 appears with Elijah (Alija) at 1861FLN-4268/22/7 which is at Holywell. Also present is Elijah's mother and a male by the name of Harrell whom you probably know about. It is clearly a close family group even though they are referred to as 'lodgers'.
Thomas's age is precisely the age that Godfrey should be in 1861 based upon his age in 1871. He also has the same occupation as Godfrey, harpist, and gives his birthplace as South Aberystwyth.
Regards
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That seems to be them :)
I see Thomas is down as b. South Aberystwyth. If we could find them on the 1851, it might give us another birth check to find a baptism.
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Hi king otg & Gadget,
Re: replies 12 & 13:
The 1861 Holywell, Flintshire census really throws me concerning the Wood(s) family.
Aliga is listed as unmarried but Elijah married Mary Roberts on 20 Aug 1860. No relationship is given for Ellen other than she is a Widow. Her age 56 rules her out as the Ellen (b. c1786) who had two children with Adam Wood who we earlier thought might be Godfrey & Elijah's parents according to Dr. Sampson's pedigree. I do not know of Harrell.
I am stuck at the moment on how to determine the parents of Godfrey & Elijah. Since their marriage certificates both state Jeremiah as the father, that seems to be the best info but which Jeremiah of several is correct?
More research!
Earle
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Hi Earle :)
The only Jeremiah in the Llansilin area around about the time who is showing in the parish records is this baptism:
1st October 1823 Theophilus s/o Jeremiah Woods and Anne
It's very difficult to check on baptisms, etc. when king otg is saying that their surnames might well not be Woods and their first names might not be what they later used.
I've looked for all names/families in the 1851 but nothing seems come anywhere close to any of them.
As I said, I'll check through any parish records that I have access to in the broad Llansilin area if I only know what I'm supposed to be looking for.
Gadget
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Hi Earle,
I have been doing a lot of reading on the subject over the weekend and think that both of us got it wrong in some respects. I did ask you for the details on Elijah's marriage certificate because I anticipated your question. The precise year of Elijah's birth and his father's occupation are needed to tidy up some of the details. The father's occupation on Godfrey's marriage certificate are slightly less useful for reasons not worth going into.
Although it is only hearsay, Matthew Wood (D37 on the ABRAM WOOD pedigree, born 1845) gave an account which, if the years are added from census and baptism records, shows that William (C12) and Ellen (C5) parted AFTER the birth of Godfrey and probably after the birth of Elijah. I would expect the baptisms, when found, to give the parents as William and Ellen.
The reasons why Sampson's records give 'Adam' are complicated and perhaps too complicated for this forum but Adam (D16) and Jeremiah (D15) were both aged about 6 at the time of Godfrey's birth. I do believe that the Ellen (C5), whose age at death makes her appear to have been born in 1786, is the SAME person as the Ellen who appears to have been born later. Judging by all her children's births she would have to have been born close 1800.
One of the reasons for the confusion is a common one on these old gipsy pedigrees. When two people having the same surname married they were sometimes interchanged on the pedigrees. In this case I suspect that Ellen belongs at C12 and William at C5. In other words Ellen (C5) was not the sister of Adam (C1) and Jerry (C4) but their sister-in-law.
After the split, while Godfrey and Elijah were about 5 and 2 respectively, Ellen took up with Jerry (C5). Whether or not Godfrey and Elijah knew that Jerry was their uncle, and not their biological father, will remain a mystery.
And at this point I will terminate my contributions to this subject.
Best of luck
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Adam Wood's baptism in 1827, assuming he did not die young, roughly determines the date at which William abandoned his wife. It may be a few years out to place the date at 1841, as Matty Wood does, because he says that the brothers Adam and Jeremiah were about 10 or 11 which means 1837-8 and that is around the time of Elijah's birth.
If Jerry senior was William's brother it makes sense for him to have partnered Ellen but there is still a tiny bit of doubt as to who was the father of Elijah. It is possible that Ellen was indeed the sister of Jeremiah assuming all of her children came from William. I certainly cannot see any Adam being involved.
Sampson's problem is the same as ours. How to get it right without implying incest. Some of those old Ryes loved to imply the worst. They were obsessed with it. But I think Sampson had his head screwed on correctly.
That's all I've got.
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To all,
I thank everyone who has spent time and effort in trying to resolve the true parentage of brothers Godfrey & Elijah Wood(s). I now firmly believe that the only solution will be to uncover their birth/baptismal certificates or possibly an obituary written at time of death.
In summary: Both marriage certificates list Jeremiah Wood, harpist, as father. Godfrey was born c1836/7 from marriage & death certs. and was a witness at Elijah's wedding. Godfrey died 2 Jan 1872 in St. Asaph, Flintshire. 1871 census states he was born in Llansilin, Denbighshire. Elijah was born c1839/40 from marriage & death certs. and was present at Godfrey's death. Elijah died 15 Apr 1899 in The Rectory, Llysfaen, Conway, Denbighshire. 1871 & 1891 censuses state he was born in St. Asaph, Flintshire and Denbigh, Denbighshire respectively.
Thanks again for the wonderful help.
Earle
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Hi Boswell37,
I agree with your deductions about Elijah but am still uncertain about his birthplace. (I already know for certain where Godfrey was baptised thanks to reliable info passed on by his descendants.) Will check on them both at the same parish when I go to Wales next month.
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Hi King otg,
I have found his wife and children in 1881 but not Elijah himself so no luck there.
Can you send me Godfrey's baptism details ?
Dawn
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Hi Boswell37,
Yup I now have Mary etc in 1881 Anglesey. I have sent you an email but forgot to add the county. It is Merioneth.
Regards
T
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Found William Wood using his alternate surname in 1861 and 1851 but will have to see the original to be certain. Slight doubt because he is too consistent from one census to the next.
Dawn
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Although I have all the alternate surnames for the WOODs it never before occurred to me to do a census check with them.
I have found Benjamin, son of William and Ellen, using his alternate.
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I cannot find that last one. What's the PNo.?
Dawn
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king otg,
Please say where & when Godfrey was baptised.
And what is the other name that the Woods used?
Thanks.
Earle
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Hi Earle
I don't wish to butt in but I've just come across this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,66801.0.html
It might have some more info for you.
I cam across a source that the Ellen mentioned was baptised in Llanuwchllyn, Merionethshire on 2nd March 1831 but I've checked the records for that parish and Llanycil and can't find anything for the exact date stated.
Given that Oswestry was pretty close to Llansilin and the Berwyn mountains (dividing Denbighshire, Merionethshire and Montgoemryshire) it might be worth investigating further. My own ancestors have led me a merry dance in these three counties and Shropshire but have managed to get back a fair way. Lots of Jones, Roberts, etc.
Gadget
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Hi Gadget,
How do you do that? I mean quote another page from elsewhere on Rootschat. I took a brief look at the other topic (ROBERTS) but it did not seem to go anywhere. I like to see specific dates and places because it gives others a means of becoming involved.
As I understand it this particular page is a 'look up' topic and I see you have been checking things out, and making some useful suggestions.
I will soon be going to Wales to do my look ups but the WOODs will have to share time with other important names. Unfortunately I cannot go there very often so if I forget something it will be quite a wait before the next visit.
I think I am done here.
Best wishes
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Hi k otg
To copy a url link, all you need do is highlight the address that shows in the address bar of your browser when you are on the particular page and copy it (Ctrl + C ) . Then you can paste it into a message by using Ctrl+V.
I've done a screenshot of the address showing while I've typed this reply and attached it (see below).
I've become interested in the Woods and other Welsh Roma families over the last few years because my ancestors also came from those parts and I was born there. It's all fascinating and reminds me of my childhood and growing up in North Wales. When I go back there now things have changed so much.
I do hope you have an enjoyable and productive stay there this time and can find the baptism of Godfrey Wood for Earle.
Are you going to the Nat Libary at Aberysywyth?
Regards
Gadget
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Boswell & King otg,
Re: Reply #19 & #25.
Please send me what info you have on Godfrey & Elijah's
birth/baptism date & place. They are direct ancestors of family members.
Thanks much.
Earle
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Hi Earle,
Information recently obtained in Wales:
MER Llanaber baptised 4 June 1837 Godfrey s/o Jeremi/Elinor JONES, Strangers
CRM Llanelly St Elli baptised 13 December 1840 Elijah s/o Jeremiah/Elinor JONES, Harper of Alogate
Llanaber is the place he mentioned to me earlier (see previous replies) although he needed to check the primary source to ensure nothing that might embarrass you appeared in the baptismal record before posting. Hence the subterfuge.
Dawn
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Hello Boswell37 & King otg,
What wonderful information - I have been searching for such a very long time.
I want to thank you and the boss man for all your help. There are many family members who will be delighted.
Do you think this Jeremiah is the son of Thomas or Jeremiah (Jerry Bach Gogerddan) or someone else?
Elijah's descendants, through daughter Jane Elizabeth Davies, now reach England, Channel Isles, USA and Australia.
Ever so pleased with the info - thanks again.
Earle
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Hi Earle,
If I am going to contribute anything else from my store of information on Gipsy Genealogy, which is better than anybody else's in the whole wide world, I am not going to tolerate being censored.
This site is just too aggressive and nasty for the likes of me.
Good luck with your research.
TL
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Hi Kingotg
I'm sorry you feel that way but Rootschat is for generosity and sharing - not self-promotion and gathering other people's family records to expand your own.
Feel free to stay and help but expect to have rudeness and unkindness ruthlessly removed.
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Hi All
I have been reading this with interest. I wondered if anybody knew anything about Jeremiah Wood Jones son of Jerry Bach, its just that I know My GG Grandfather was a Jeremiah Jones who was a Harpist in Abergavenny. I know that his father was a Jeremiah Jones, Harpist. I know that Jeremiah Wood Jones had brothers called Theophilus and John and my GG Grandfather called his son Theophilus John. (Or the one son I know about) What I have been told by my grandmother and her sisters was that he had cousins who played for for Queen Victoria.
I have researched the Woods and know that Jerry Bach used the name Jones for official purposes, and comes up as Jones on the 1841 and 1851 census, I am sure I also have his death certificate which is under the name Jones. Although on the burial register he is buried as a Wood.
We had no idea of any gypsy link, but my G Aunt left me some books by George Borrow when she died, and I think maybe she knew.
I would love to know for sure.
Allie H
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there is a publication called "Pedigree of Jeremiah Wood (Jerry Bach Gogerddan)" It is held at the National Library of Wales. File number 3422
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In response to Reply #33, there is nothing wrong with somebody who is willing and able to do research for others gathering the necessary data. There is a process and people need to know what it is. Nobody could ever legitimately accuse me of self-promotion.
TL