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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: adcor on Thursday 01 October 09 05:13 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Trying to find arrival of g.g.g. grandfather John Brown. His arrival is noted as 1821 to Aust. There is family talk that he may have been a Cabin Boy. It is believed but not verified that he arrived on the Henriettta or Elizabeth Henrietta. John Brown was a sheep grazier - 100,000 acres around 1848 his property was Cannonbar - Dubbo/Wellington/Nyngen area NSW. We do know he came from Suffolk. No proof to date on the ship he arrived on. His father may have been a Clerk for the Dutch East Indies Company. It would appear his parents did not come with him.
Any help in find his ship would be gratefully appreciated
Kind regards Debbie
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Hi Adcor,
One of my forebears was a John BROWN, arriving 1827 to NSW... I'll get to my hardcopy files and go through to find the many chaps named John BROWN who arrived in the 1820's... One must be yours...
Cheers,
JM
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Bit More,
I think there was a ship "Elizabeth Henrietta" in the 1820's...
Also I have asked the moderators to move this thread off the completed lookups and onto the main Australia board, so others will notice it and perhaps be better able to help...
Cheers,
JM
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Thankyou so much JM - John Brown arrived either 1821 or 1829.
Regards Debbie
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Hi Debbie,
Thanks Kris for your quick response and moving this posting to this thread, you are always there to help, Gold Stars to Kris.
Debbie, I'm sure you realise the many difficulties in trying to sort out which John Brown was which.... But, I think your chap was not in NSW in 1828, as I cannot find him on the 1828 Census... Although even that record has some reliability issues, mainly because of its age and the various chaps who used the alias "John Brown" etc...
So, what records do you already have for him? For example, do you have any information as to land grants - I usually expect to find the name of the ship somewhere on those documents....
Are you only seeking the details of his arrival to NSW, or are you hoping for help on his NSW life ...
I've got lots of questions, and stacks of assorted "rejected" bits and pieces on the many (and I do mean many) John Brown chaps (also BrownE) that were around in the 1830's.
Cheers, JM
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Bit More,
On the NSW electoral roll for 1870/1, for the polling place of Canonbar, in the district of THE BOGAN, (right area ;D) there's the following:
John Brown, freehold, residing at Canonbar, situated at Duck Creek
AND
John Brown, junior, residence, same as above.
I will have a look to see who was there in 1878 ish.
Please let me know if you already have this information.
Cheers,
JM
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Bit More,
1878 Electoral Roll, again, for THE BOGAN, noticing that the polling place is now Cannonbar (was just one "n" in 1870)
Again, two by name of John Brown, one as freehold, other as residence, both at Cannonbar, Duck Creek.
Cheers,
JM
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Bit More,
Cannot find either of those chaps at Nygan on 1903 roll, but I will check other polling places in that electorate (Darling) shortly.
Cheers,
JM
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Bit More,
I have found a polling place in the 1903 roll for DARLING, spelling "Canonbar" and there's some BROWN listings there. (1903 is first year for females aged 21 and over to be eligible to enrol to vote)
All with surname BROWN and alpha by first names (so tis up to you to figure out which families each belong to, remembering the females could be there under Brown as their married surname)
Anna Isabella, at Reedy corner, domestic duties
Charles Robert, at Half Moon Station, manager
John Thomas, at Reedy corner, grazier
Sydney Brisbane at Half Moon Station, overseer
Thomas Brisbane at Canonba (spelling definitelyas per roll) grazier
Also of course there's others on the same page, and their addresses include localities that strike bells for me eg
Girilambone, Belarbone, Merryanbone,
The entire roll fits on one page, just 51 persons enrolled at that polling place.
Any names you want me to check ? - In laws etc.
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM,
Thank you - will get back to you - do have info - my g.g. grandfather was Thomas Brisbane Brown (one of John's sons) John Brown died in 1888 Emu Plains.
I do have the property info. Just cant find when he came out - conflicting info - one newspaper article says 1821 - some of the family think it was 1829.
Will be back in touch
Thanks so much
Regards Debbie
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Hi Debbie,
If you check the 1888 death certificate it may show how many years he had been in the colonies. ;)
Cheers, and thanks for your thanks. Its what RChat is all about... helping each other, and I know what searching for John Brown can be like. I've a John Brown and also a John Smith. Solved my John Brown but not YET solved my John Smith.... ::).
JM
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Bit More,
Online index at the NSW State Records, shows a deceased estate duty paid 1890 for John Brown of Emu Plains, death shown as 21 Aug 1888. Also, there's the probate packet there for clues as to arrival etc.
Both these links give index info about your John Brown's estate.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/quicksearch.aspx
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Search.aspx
I did not find any likely "candidates" on the 1841 lists, but these are definitely missing many pages.
Also, was the property at Cannonbar named Kerry-Nyngan or similar.... I have found some of my hardcopy notes, and I crossed that property name off my searchings some ten years ago... I can see I had written SHEEP and John Brown and 1869...
Cheers, JM
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Hi everyone,
Speaking on John Brown I have a query.
My John Browne with an E came from York to Geelong.
I have his marriage his birth but the only thing I cannot find is when he came to Australia and went to Geelong.
He was a law stationer in Geelong and an artist.
He married Jane Greenwood in England in 1847.
They had 2 children in England Anne & Isabel.
I cannot find any shipping records for them. Their next child Joseph Browne was born in 1855 in Newtown Geelong.
Any help would be appreciated.
thanks
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Hello Debbie,
I have a little book on Canonba it has John Browns arrival as 1821. The book has 3 marriges for John Brown and list the children of each of the 3 marriages.
There is also a photo of John Brown , a photo of his headstone and a sketch of his homestead.
My 3x great grandmother was married to her first husband the same day as John Brown was to his second wife and he and his son John jnr were witnesses to the marriage.
hope this helps
Kristy
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Hi Everyone,
Firstly a very big thank you for all that have posted and helped me with information on my John Brown ;D ;D. It is much appreciated. Kristy - where can I get a copy of the book on Canoba. I am descended from his first marriage to Ann Buckley. Evidently all of his wives were Irish lasses. He was married to her at Scotts Church Sydney. Trying to find ships that arrived in 1821. Thanks everyone .. Debbie
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I was in Nyngan a few years ago when I picked it up at the museum there. It is only a little book but it does have an interesting story about your John Brown and the pictures I said in my prior post.
Just re-read it in case it gave the ships name but no luck there.
I was given a phone number of a lady you can pm for the details and I will pass them on to you she may be able to get you a copy if not let me know.
There may be more information on John available at the Nyngan museum so it maybe worth giving them a call.
I hope this helped
HS
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The Maitland Mercury and Hunter River General Advertiser 21 Oct 1880, also 28 April 1881 has John Brown with properties Mudhall, Mulla Mulla, Box Cowell, Cannonbar and Deruble(?). There is a John Brown MP for Jerrys Plains in this area 1880s
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?adv=y
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Just thinking is his ship listed on the 1828 census?
I can have a look tomorrow at the library if you like?
I found a cd today when looking for something else that forgot I had called "The free settlers of Australia 1788-1828" but allot of the John Browns don't have year of arrival just ships name.
regards
HS ;D
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Hi there,
You can often find the ship's name and arrival date, sometimes even the passengers names, for the early arrivals by searching the online newspapers, using the advanced search option, then restricting the search to the Sydney Gazette and to the likely (your own guesswork) years the ship arrived. If you use the "all of these words" option, and the ship's name and "brown" you can even find it very quickly.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?adv=y
Cheers, JM
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John Brown is my GG Grandfather and his 1st wife Ann Buckley is my GG Grandmother. John Brown is buried at Emu Plains and Ann his first wife is buried on the old homestead site (all that remains are bricks and a fenced grave and marble headstone) at Canonba (there are many spellings of this as Cannonbar, Canonbar and Carringbung). I own the original surveyor's map of Brownstown with Canonba on it and an original water colour painting of the homestead "Belmont". John Brown's death certificate and head stone state different ages at death, both are wrong. His age stated on his 1st wedding registration (at Scots Kirk Sydney, 14th March 1842, clergyman John Dunmore Lang) is 23 and Ann Buckley as 28. Ann Buckley arrived from Cork on board the Palambam as a free settler from a poor house in Cork her age on arrival in 1831 is 20. John Brown landed in Australia 1828 with his mother and 6 siblings from Cork in Ireland on board the Sir Joseph Banks, he was 11 years old when he arrived and was the 3rd eldest of 7 children. His mother's name was Frances and they had all travelled to Australia to join the father Robert, who came to this country in 1826 from Cork Ireland on board the Sir Godfrey Webster. Robert had been in the 81st Regiment and was court martialed John Brown was born 8th October 1815 in Tuam (Parish-District) Galway County his religion was Church of Ireland. His father Robert was born Doneraile (Parish-District) Cork County his baptism is dated 29/12/1776. His age at arrival of transportation to Australia is 50 years. Trust all this data is of use, I have lots more but this will do as a starter. Regards LAW
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Hi Law,
I am also from John's marriage to Ann then their son Thomas Brisbane Brown and so on. I am absolutely speechless with this info that you have - it is just marvellous. All this time I had thought John was British. I would love to make further contact if possible either by email or phone or chatroom. Would that be possible. I am very appreciative of the fact that you made contact. I have a photo of either Ann Buckley Brown or Anne McMillan Brown -(Thomas' wife). It is one of the girls but dont know which one. Have photos of of a couple of children back then - one died of Diptheria (from memory).
Regards Adcor
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Happy to make contact Adcor, are you in Australia or OS. You can contact me via email (*) I'm from the son James Buckley Brown brother of Thomas Brisbane.
Regards
LAW
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Adcor, I need at least 3 postings before I can send a personal message, however you appear to have 3 postings so maybe you can send you email address to me and I can make 1 to 1 contact with you. Regards GEOLAW
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Thomas Brisbane Brown 1st son of John Brown & Ann Brown (nee Buckley) of Canonba was born 26th February 1843 Christened 7th March 1843 at Bungulgumbie by Rev Colin Stevens? (indistinct on certificate) Parish record No 4003. Thomas Brisbane Brown married NSW RN 1928/1864 Anne MacMillan (McMillan) registration place Dubbo. Their daughter Annie born 5th September 1865 Birth NSW RN8257/1865 died at 4 months of age Death NSW RN 3555/1865 she is buried with her grandmother Ann Brown (nee Buckley) and named on the headstone at Canonba. I have a photo of the headstone. GEOLAW
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Hi Geolaw, Have sent a post to you with my email address, hope I have done it properly. I have the headstone photo of our Ann Buckley Brown and a few of our John Brown plus even a photo of your james Buckley Brown.
Please let me know if you get my email address.
Regards
Debbie (Adcor)
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Debbie I would really appreciate copies of any photos you have re the Brown family. I have several of James Buckley Brown and his wife Catherine Samuels also Catherine's book of Common Prayer. Only possess 1 small photo of John Brown so would love more. Following is some more data re JB and his offspring from 1st marriage, if you require details on the other 2 marriages I'll let you have that too, however I'm still working on it.
John Brown came to Australia aboard the Sir Joseph Banks arrining Sydney 7th October 1828, the ship sailed from Cork. John Brown arrived with his mother Frances and brothers and sisters Charlotte aged 15, Thomas 13, John himself 11, Eliza 9, Robert 7, Anne 5, George 3. It would appear that Frances and the children sailed to Sydney town to meet up with Frances's convict husband Robert Brown. Robert Brown (born 1776) came to Australia as a convict on board the Sir Godfrey Webster, sailing from Cork in 1826, he was tried (court martial 81st Regiment) in Roscommon Ireland and after arrival in NSW applied for his wife and family to join him, they are shown as living in Irishtown Roscommon Athlone Ireland.
He had 3 marriages
Marriage 1 to Ann Buckley she was 31 years of age Marriage at Scots Kirk Sydney 14th March 1842 Church record Registration 739 married by John Dunmore Lang' They had 5 children. Ann Brown Death RN 2825/1860
Their children
1. Thomas Brisbane 1843-1910 Born 26th February 1843 Christened 7th March 1843 at Bungulgumbie by Rev Colin Stevens? Parish record No 4003. Their daughter Annie birth RN8257/1865 death RN 3555/1865 is buried with her grandmother Ann buckley and named on the headstone at Canonba. Thomas Brisbane Brown died 19th November 1910 RN 14936/1910 Penrith (the death certificate incorrectly states his wife's name rather than mothers on the certificate) Thomas & Harriet's other children John T (RN 8051/1866), William (RN 8736/1868), Angus J (RN 9447/1872), Sydney Burton (RN 10191/1874), Charles Robert M (RN 10890/1876), Margaret Adelaide (RN 12729/1879) all the children's birth RNs (register number) were recorded at Dubbo NSW.
2. John Lane 1844-1915 Married Harriett Mary Isaacs Dubbo NSW RN 2262/1874 Children born Eva Maude L (RN 12853/1879), John Cecil Victor (mother recorded as Henrietta M C) RN 10849/1876
3. Margaret Julia 1845-1932 married John Hoare Dubbo NSW RN 2019/1865
4. James Buckley1846-1928 Birth/Baptism Certificate V1846/2942 Death RN 18603/1928 Aged 83 Dubbo NSW
5. Anna (Anne & Ann) Chapman 1848-1932 married Robert John Kendall Dubbo NSW RN 1937/1867
Regards
GEOLAW
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Thomas Brisbane Brown is buried in the same grave as his father John Brown in St Paul's cemetery Emu Plains (I have photos of the "monumental" headstone and inscriptions).
GEOLAW
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John Brown came to Australia aboard the Sir Joseph Banks arrining Sydney 7th October 1828, the ship sailed from Cork. John Brown arrived with his mother Frances and brothers and sisters Charlotte aged 15, Thomas 13, John himself 11, Eliza 9, Robert 7, Anne 5, George 3.
NSW SRO's website says Census was taken in November 1828 http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-12/short-guide-12
Cheers, JM
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I have the 1828 Census, unfortunately it was a very haphazard census and certainly did not include all the residents at the time, for instance several explorers undertaking exploration at the time (I've read the diaries) are not even on that census.
Regards GEOLAW
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Yes, the 1828 Census has lots of flaws, but that's the way it was in those times I was only trying to show that they ought to be on the 1828 Census as it was to be available for completion several weeks after they had landed. I understand that Ancestry has two versions of the Census, one based on the UK copy of the collated records and one based on the NSW copy of the collated records. I use a different resource from either of those two, and I am happy to check through my resource for you, if you wish.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks JM interestingly there were 129 free passengers on the Sir Joseph Banks landed 7th October 1828 however only 59 of them are recorded on the 1828 census, if you have extra information I'd be delighted to see it. Many thanks. GEOLAW
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:) Perhaps you mean that only 59 listed the name of the ship.... there's lots of examples where the householder apparently did not provide the name of the ship on the 1828 forms. Not everyone was fully literate, and not everyone who could write had copperplate handwriting for the clerks to clearly read, and not all the clerks were experienced copperplate hands either.
I will try to get to my 1828 records in the next day or two, and look for your Frances, John, Charlotte, Thomas, Eliza, Robert, Anne, and George.
Do you know the family's religious denomination in 1828?
Cheers, JM
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Church of Ireland, I also have John Brown's Irish Baptism Certificate which shows his parents as Frances and Robert.
I have Robert's Irish Baptism Certificate as well, Church of Ireland again.
Don't know Frances's maiden name also cannot find their marriage recorded, however as Robert was in the 81st Regiment it's likely they could have been anywhere.
The 1828 census I have is titled Census of NSW 1828 Revised edition with data from extant Household Returns 35,000 people - Edited 2008 by Malcolm Sainty and Keith Johnson. I have also been right through the hard back volume at the local library.
Appreciate your input. Regards GEOLAW
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Now have John Brown's mother's maiden name it's Frances Kelly. John Brown's brother Thomas and his wife and a couple of their 9 children are buried at Campbell Hill cemetery Maitland, the headstone is very ledgible (I have photos). Thomas married Tamar Smyth from Port Stephens in 1841. Thomas passed away 26th February 1869 aged 64 years, according to his death certificate he was an Inn keeper.
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Hi and thank you so much for the information - well done - so we have Kelly ancestry as well. Sorry for delay in replying - only got my computer back yesterday - it was running out of mega bites or something so everything froze.
Regards
Adcor
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Regarding Ann Buckley wife of John brown.There were two Ann Buckleys who arrived in Sydney ten years apart but of the same age.Ann Buckley came on the Palambam in 1831 I've seen her age given as both 19 and 20,the other Ann arrived on the Fairlie from Cork in 1841 her age is given on the manifest as 29,however the manifest also states she can read and write.My Ann Buckley ,my gg grandmother was married in Newcastle in 1849,she however could not sign her own name.Does any one have more information on this lady?
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My Ann Buckley ,my gg grandmother was married in Newcastle in 1849,she however could not sign her own name.Does any one have more information on this lady?
Have you considered that she chose NOT to sign her name? I am assuming that the parish register shows the bride made her mark .... Perhaps her spouse also made his mark? Pehaps you are looking at a transmitted copy of an entry in a parish register? What if the clergyman said "make your Mark here" rather than "Sign here"....
May I ask for the denomination for that 1849 Newcastle marriage :)
Have you looked through the C of E parish registers for the Newcastle and surrounding districts (Christ Church Cathedral's flickr images) that are linked at RChat's Resources Board?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
Cheers, JM
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Hi - my Anne Buckley was married in Sydney at Scotts Church in 1842. She married John Brown - I dont think this is the same Anne Buckley
Regards Adcor
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Here is a link to a Newcastle marriage in March 1849 for a William TAYLOR and Ann BUCKLEY.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/2504868074/in/set-72157605132739200/
The Groom was NOT named as John BROWN.... and the bride was named as Ann Norah BUCKLEY, a spinster. The Governor gave consent to the marriage (William Taylor was a widower). That Ann Norah BUCKLEY's mark was recorded. The entire record seems to be in the one handwriting which I think would be that of the Reverend. (Charles Pleydell Neale WILTON)
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/wilton-charles-pleydell-neale-2807
Add:
William and Ann Norah TAYLOR and their son Benjamin born 11 May 1850, baptised by Rev Wilton, Chaplain, 16 June 1850 shows William Taylor was a Shopkeeper.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/with/2504868166
Cheers, JM
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Well done JM :)
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Thanks, definitely not the same lass as married John Brown 1842 :)
Re : William Taylor chap (Taylor being a surname almost as popular as Brown :) )
On the register for the 1849 marriage, William TAYLOR Rev Wilton has noted this groom as a Widower, ex the Lady Kennaway. As William Taylor’s sentence was that of Life, his previous marriage was effectively terminated when he was transported “beyond the seas”. Here is a link to help explain this and a number of other issues Remember that until 1873, (start of NSW Divorces) clergy in NSW only had two options to describe a bride or a groom. These were Spinster/Widow or Bachelor/Widow(er). Also, it is my understanding that the word "Widow/er" had a much broader meaning than that of a person whose lawful husband had died. This broader meaning contracted AFTER Queen Victoria's husband died in the 1860s...
http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html
There is a ticket of leave granted to a William TAYLOR (36/2198) , ex the 1836 Lady Kennaway, and the ToL (44/2341) issued 13 Sept 1844 permitted him to remain in the District of Newcastle.
When he arrived in 1836, He could read and write, and was a married man, a Protestant. His Trade or calling was Farm servant and shepherd, and his offence was Sheep stealing. His trial was 19 Oct 1835, Leicester Quarter Sessions, and he had no previous convictions. His sentence was transportation for life. He stood 5 ft 10 ¼ tall, with Sallow and freckled complexion, with Brown hair and Grey eyes and a large horizontal scar right side of chin, several small moles lower left arm.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/research-topics/convicts/convicts
Cheers, JM :)
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Hi,
The Brown family is indeed a confusing one. You have one child missing as he is strangely not shown on the list of passengers on the Sir Joseph Banks. His names was Charles William Brown who married Bridget McGuggan/McGuggin/McGuiggin (many differnt spellings found during research) on 28th October, 1833 at Scots Church, Elizabeth Street, Sydney. Bridget died in 1837 and Charles William moved to Hobart, Tasmania and worked as a Compositor on The Colonial Times and Tasmanian. There is a death notice on Trove placed by Charles William for his father Robert Brown and states that Robert died at his residence in Paddington on 20th September, 1851 and was late of the 81st Regiment, Sergeant.
I am happy to share copies of the marriage certificate, Pardon and anything else that I may have on the Brown line which may be of interest to you.
Regards,
Paul
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Hi Paul,
Thank you for the information. Are you descended from Charles? It would be great to get a copy of the pardon. Let me know if you are indeed descended from John's brother Charles.
Regards Debbie
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Hi Paul,
Thank you for the information. Are you descended from Charles? It would be great to get a copy of the pardon. Let me know if you are indeed descended from John's brother Charles.
Regards Debbie
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Hi,
Yes, I am descended from Charles William Brown (son of Robert Brown & Frances Charlotte Kelly) who as I said was a compositor in Sydney with the Commercial Journal at the time of his marriage and in Hobart with the Colonial Times after the 1937 death of Bridget. Let me know how I send some documents to you which may be of interest.
Regards,
Paul
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Correction to previous posting ... the death of Bridget was 1837, not 1937
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Thomas Brown, son of Robert and Frances Brown was my great great grandfather, and brother of John Brown of Canonbar. He was the owner of the Exchange Hotel in West Maitland NSW and when he died on 26 February 1879 his wife Tamar continued running the hotel. They had 7 children. I would like to find out what happened to Robert Brown after he received his pardon in 1829. Cannot find his or Frances' death dates.,
Robert Brown was convicted of manslaughter in Athlone, County Roscommon in 1824 and sentenced to transportation for life, along with the 4 other watchmen involved in the murder.
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Hi Diane,
Thanks for your comments. I can help you with Frances Kelly death information - 26th October, 1870 aged 78 years is stated in SMH on 27th October, 1870. I know that Robert worked in Carter's Barracks in Sydney for a time and resided in Paddington. I am related to this line via Charles William Brown (a Compositor) who died in 1856 in Hobart and his Daughter Charlotte Mary Anne Brown may have resided with Robert at some stage after her fathers death. It would be interesting to compare notes with you on the research, but I do not know how that is possible.
Regards,
Paul
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Hi,
Could you tell me the parents names shown on Robert Browns' baptism certificate.
Regards,
Paul
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Has anyone got any definitive proof/documentation that John Brown (land owner in Canonbar) is the son of Robert and Frances Brown. On the death certificate I have noted that his father was named Thomas Brown (occupation clerk) and the dates do not align. I like to have supporting facts before claiming an ancestor and hopefully your assistance will provide some.
I am related through Charles William Brown (eldest son of Robert & Frances Brown) for whom I cannot find a record of entry into Australia, but I have supporting proof that he was their son. If anyone is interested in this line please contact me.
Regards,
Paul
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I was given this information some time ago, and am not convinced that John Brown of cannonbar is the son of Robert and Frances Brown. I also would like to see documentation to prove this.
John Brown has been very well researched for many years by an elderly descendant of John Brown and Ann Buckley, although the parentage of John Brown still eludes everyone.