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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: KitCarson on Wednesday 30 September 09 14:31 BST (UK)
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Hi, I have a marriage between John McKethney and Ellen Holt on 3/12/1848. The certificate says 'Marriage solemnized at the Catholic Parish Church in the Parish of Manchester in the County of Lancaster.' Can anyone tell me where this would have been in Manchester and whether it still stands? Thanks, Kit
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Here you go:
http://hiddengem.catholicfaith.co.uk/
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According to LancsBMD that marriage was at Manchester Cathedral
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Velpremus - thanks for the link, I enjoyed reading the history.
Hi Pathway - it's interesting you say that as someone with the same relatives has told me the same. I presume Cathedrals are used in the same way as a local parish church?
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With the exception of Jews and Quakers all marriages that were not "Church of England" were not considered legal under the Lord Hardwicke Marriage act of 1754.
Your couple would have got married at the Cathedral and then had another service at the catholic church.
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I'm still very new to this FH research and not religious at all (although both parent and extended family were catholics) so all this information is fantastic. So the second service would have been held at the church you kindly provided the link to? I'll certainly need to check these out when I'm next in St Helens and take a trip over to Manchester. Cheers, Kit, Edinburgh
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Does the certificate say 'catholic' or could it be an abbreviation of cathedral. The cathedral was once the parish church
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Mmm, good question. I have it in front of me and its difficult to say. It certainly says 'Cath.' and after the dot, a letter/symbol that looks like 'll' but a bit more open at the top like a capital V, so it looks like ...... the Cath.V Parish Church .......... His hand writing is a bit curly and flourishing. Does it mean anything to anyone?
I should have said, John is from Scotland and his grandfather was a Church Minister in Inveresk, Midlothian. Until I do more research, I would expect that to be Church of Scotland, so I expect the Catholic angle doesn't really fit does it?
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As a Catholic myself, I cannot go along with the statement that a Catholic couple would go thro' a wedding in a CofE Cathedral and then a Catholic church later on! Surely they would have opted to "live in sin" as their faith would be compromised and they themselves would feel that they were not "married". Surely this must be a CofE couple being married in a church of their faith, either a local one associated with the Cathedral or the Cathedral itself!
Bill
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Bill
In hindsight, I would have to agree. I was probably lured by the 'Marriage solemnized at the Cath... Parish Church ....' These are my Aunt's line (she's my Aunt by marriage, but asked me to try and locate her relatives) and although her familiar family is now Catholic, they may well have been something else a century or so earlier.
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If the certificate is the normal kind it should say immediately under the information about the two parties something along the lines of:
"Married in the [name of church] according to the Rites and ceremonies of the Established Church"
If that is the case then it's almost certainly a marriage at the Cathedral Church of Manchester - C of E - if it's the Catholic Cathedral then the wording will say "according to the rites and ceremonies of the Roman Catholics"
jds1949
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I understand that many Catholic couples married in Manchester Cathedral (CofE) in the 19th century as I think they believed the marriage would not be valid unless they were married in the Established Church because of Hardwickes 1754 Marriage Act.
My gt grandmother had both a CofE and a RC marriage. Her father who I know was definitely RC was married after Banns in the Established Church but was buried as a Catholic. His older brother and their parents were married according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Catholic Church. They lived in a very poor area and could neither read nor write so I suppose they tried to follow what they thought was right the best way they could.
Also there weren't enough churches in Manchester to accommodate the huge increase in the population.
There was also something to do with fees. When a couple got married in Manchester they had to pay both the local church and the Collegiate Church (Manchester Cathedral) so it was cheaper to get married at Manchester Cathedral.
Its a fascinating subject.
Luzzu
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Hi Luzzu and all
Luzzu, you more or less read my mind! I have always been told that at this stage in the 19C loads of people who were of other denominations were married in the Established Church because of the various effects of the aftermath of the earlier bill, not leat of all relating to money and legitimacy of children.
Like Luzzu there are Roman Catholics in my family who were married in the established church, and brought their children up in the Roman Catholic faith, as ois shown in their baptismal records, funerals and family stories. Some of these were married in Manchester Cathedral.
I haven't actually found second marriages but I'm told not all of these were recorded because of the insecure times they were living in.
Incidentally, I was told that there was once a Catholic priest based at the Cathedral. Not sure of the details though.
All makes the research more interesting!
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi again,
Just found quite an interesting article on Roman Catholic marriages in Manchester in the 19th century on this link:-
http://www.manchester-family-history-research.co.uk/new_page_12.htm
It basically says that prior to 1908 getting married outside the Catholic Church did not go against the church. I would love to post the whole item but I am certain it will break the copyright rules.
You have to scroll down a bit because its near the bottom of the page.
This website is really good generally and has some fascinating stuff about Manchester on it.
Luzzu
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Hey Luzzu, really appreciate your info. Gaining knowledge as I go! Kit
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Hi
Thank you Luzzu. That's a great site. There's a great dpage on the origens of the Cathedral and other Manchester and Salford parishes. Great explanation, but it's not surprising people get confused!
Also some fascinating transactions where marriage was concerned!
http://www.manchester-family-history-research.co.uk/new_page_10.htm
Best wishes
Emms
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Brilliant article.
Can you imagine the chaos of 10-20 couples getting married at the same time?
I read somewhere (can't remember where) that Christmas Day was popular for Manchester Cathedral weddings and - not sure how true this is :-\ - that sometimes the Groom didn't even have to be present :o :o Would be interesting if anyone else had heard anything like this.
Also, Salford Cathedral is a Catholic cathedral.
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"Catholic" can be a confusing word, as it means universal, all-encompassing, etc.
Did it come into use in the religious sense in the 2nd century or so to differentiate it after the break with what are now the eastern "orthodox" churches? And I think it is still used in CofE liturgy when it refers to itself as the Holy Catholic Church or some such (I stand to be corrected... ).
Some churches did refer to themselves as Catholic when they were CofE. I don't think "Roman Catholic" came into use as a common term until the 20th century, the Roman Catholic church was more often The Church of Rome.
Doesn't help us much when we're trying to sort our family histories!
Fiona
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Gosh - now it gets really complicated :-\.
Another question - if a marriage is "Registrar Attended" what does this mean exactly - is it an indication of a Catholic marriage?
Presumably if ALL marriages were "Registrar Attended" it wouldn't be necessary to state this on the record.
???
Luzzu
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"Registrar Attended" can mean a Catholic marriage - or indeed any marriage other than an Anglican one. Only C of E clergy were legally empowered to register marriages - all other denominations had to have a civil registrar present. That remained the case until relatively recently.
jds1949
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Apparently if a marriage certificate says "Married in the Catholic Church of St ?" without saying "According to the Rites and Ceremonies etc.," this means that when the couple arrived to get married, something unexpected had happened to the Priest, i.e., he was ill or indisposed or stuck in bad weather and was unable to conduct the ceremony.
The Registrar who would be in attendance would conduct the marriage and do all the legal bits and pieces but without the Priest the marriage could not be done by "According to the Rites and Ceremonies etc.," Then another official of the church would conduct the hymns, prayers.
Luzzu
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St Augustine's church was in use at that time frame. Read the following, I found this in a site that was about St Augustine's. My catholic GGgrandparents were married in this church. It was near London Road (Piccadilly railway station) in Granby Row.
Mike Morris
Toronto Canada
St. Augustine’s Parish (founded 1820) is one of the oldest in Manchester, only St. Chad’s, Cheetham Hill (1773) and St. Mary’s in Mulberry Street (1794) are older and all three were founded by the same tireless priest, Fr. Rowland Broomhead.
The first St. Augustine’s Church was built in 1820 on Granby Row, near the present day Manchester Piccadilly Train Station. At the time there were only 500 Catholics in the Manchester District, which included Bolton, Rochdale, Stockport, Glossop and Macclesfield. This first Church was sold and demolished in 1905 to make way for the Manchester Technical College which in turn became UMIST (University of Manchester Institute of Science and Technology). In 2004 UMIST merged with the Victoria University of Manchester to establish the University of Manchester.
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Hi Toromto
Thank you for the article. I've used all three registers and knew they were old, but not that they were the earliest three. The part that's especially interesting to me is the comment about the wider picture in the area. I have family in Heywood and Rochdale as well, and Some werew married in Manchester and have early children before the Hetwood records started. Maybe I should be looking in the Manchester registers!
Thank you again.
Emms