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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: polidor on Tuesday 29 September 09 23:38 BST (UK)
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I am trying to verify a 'possible' marriage between ELIZABETH SHORLEY & RICHARD STUBBLES. No date for marriage but am guessing perhaps between 1868--1878 ?
Elizabeth was b 1848
BUT--to confuse --Elizabeth Shorleys birth on Family Search shows her born1848 Renhold Beds. with parents ELIZABETH & JAMES SHORLEYand i have her born to ELIZA Copperwheat & James Shorley!!
Also, I say 'possible' marriage' because this info was passed on to me and i like to do my own checking before adding to my tree and cannot find via Family search or Free BMD etc any marriage for these two. If this request for a lookup is too vague then i will understand if it's a 'no can do' ??? poli
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but am guessing perhaps between 1868--1878 ?
How did you arrive at that time span?
If they had children - what were their names and when/where were they born
Do you have one of the children's birth certs confirming Elizabeth's maiden name
The only 1871 entry for a Richard Stubbles with a wife Elizabeth does not match your profile
Richard was b 1838 in Reading and Elizabeth 1833 in Dorset
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I wouldn't worry too much about Eliza/Elizabeth. The IGI has an extracted marriage in Renhold between James Shorley and Eliza Copperwheat in 1846, and then a baptism in Renhold of Martha in 1847, mother Eliza, followed by another Renhold baptism on 1848 of Elizabeth, mother Elizabeth, then back to mother Eliza for William in 1854. It's pretty clear that it's the same family.
Why do you think Elizabeth Shorley married Richard Stubbles, other than someone told you? Have you found them in any census?
In 1871 she was a servant aged 22 born Rennoll Beds in Marylebone, so that cuts down the possible marriage dates, and completely rules out the 1871 Stubbles couple that Carole found and had ruled out. But I can't find a marriage or death for her, nor can I see her in any subsequent census
David
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Thanks for the replies bedfordshire boy &CaroleW-----reason---i had Eliza Copperwheat & James Shorley in my tree with just the one daughter Elizabeth.
A contact from GR some months ago gave me info about Elizabeth marrying R.Stubbles. This info i had not yet added because i had not checked them for myself--they were both sitting in the 'maybe' notes.
The GR contact mailed me again yesterday asking if Elizabeth & Richard were actually married --i think she must be having second thoughts-- i replied to her that i would try to find out for sure if Elizabeth HAD married a Richard Stubbles and began by double checking her parents marriage and her own birth .
The time span--well basically i just thought that Elizabeth would marry--if indeed she did, somewhere between the ages of 20 & 30.
The only 1871 entry for a Richard Stubbles with a wife Elizabeth does not match your profile
Yes, i came across that one--not sure which direction to go in really now--i think my best bet now is to get in touch with my GR lady and ask her why she seemed so sure of the E.S & R.S marriage in her 1st message from months back ::) poli
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The Shorleys had other children in Renhold, and then in Kempston and Bedford, if you do a parent search on the IGI. In 1861 they were living in Clapham Rd Bedford, indexed on Ancestry as Sherley, with seven children born in Renhold and Kempston.
One assumes that your GR contact must have found something which has escaped us, as presumably it's not just pure fiction!
Interesting that all GR trees and Ancestry trees show her birthplace as Blunham, yet in all censuses she gives her birthplace as Kempston. What do you show? Have you found her in 1841?
David
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who is she we are looking for in 1841 David ?
or is it in 1851 where Anc* has them mistranscribed as Thornley living in Renhold, that James & wife Elga ! that is who is born Kempston, the others are from Renhold.
& 1841 James is mistranscribed as Shanley.
Surely they can get Shorley not being Sherley, good job James didn;t marry a Shirley
cheers John
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On the marriage in Renhold, Eliza Copperwheat names her father as John
The IGI has baptism of Eliza Copperthwaite at Blunham on 25 July 1824 to John & Alice
On 1841 an Eliza Copperwheat age 15 is a female servant on a farm in Tetworth, Hunts just accross the county border a few miles from Blunham. The census says she's not born in county
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That's the she I was looking for in 1841 John. Obviously a mistake to confine my search to Beds! I'd found them in 1851 badly transcribed, which confirmed that in all censuses with a birthplace it was Kempston, so notwithstanding that the marriage father, John, ties up with the Blunham father, I'm a bit perplexed that she didn't seem to know where she was coming from, so to speak.
David
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John P-bedford--"The IGI has baptism of Eliza Copperthwaite at Blunham on 25 July 1824 to John & Alice"
Yes, Eliza's parents were indeed John Copperwheat & Alice nee Hills.
Eliza married James Shorley in 1846 and we know there is a birth for daughter Elizabeth in 1848--did she marry Richard Stubbles though?
My GR contact sent me in an earlier message, the info that Elizabeth married Richard Stubbles presumably before 1873 because she told me they had a daughter Florence b MAY 1873. This marriage is apparently now in dispute as she has asked me if i had a marriage for Elizabeth & Stubbles.
I don't have Elizabeth married as yet in my tree so i told her i would look into it.
I truly don't know where she got her idea that Richard Stubbles married an Elizabeth Shorley in the first place. I will Pm her and ask.
The Shorley name seems to get a lot of variations everywhere which doesn't help ::)
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Yes, Eliza's parents were indeed John Copperwheat & Alice nee Hills.
They married at Blunham on 24 Dec 1821 & also baptised daughter Martha on 15 May 1822.
There was also a Martha Copperwheat married to William Hills on 19 Dec 1818 at Blunham. Martha may be John's sister but I have not checked if Alice & William Hills are related - but I bet they may well be.
John baptised 2 June 1800 & Martha 'Freshwater' in 1792 are children of Thomas & Elizabeth nee Reed who married 4 Aug 1789. They also had Charles in 1790, Letty 1794, Ann 1802, Thomas 1806, plus a Eliz(abeth) & Williiam also baptised on 2/6/1800. Thomas was buried 1807 age 1 year.
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I'm a bit perplexed that she didn't seem to know where she was coming from, so to speak.
David, Alice Copperthwaite was buried Blunham age 20 on 8 Dec 1824, 5 months after daughter Eliza's christening. I wonder if father John them moved to Kempston.... ?
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I think that Polidor's GR contact has got wires seriously crossed. Just looking at the 1881 census seems to blow holes in the Stubbles/Shorley marriage. Florence born in Kensington registration district in the June quarter 1873 seems to be aged 7 in 1881 living in St George Hanover Square with her widowed mother Elizabeth Stubbles age 47 and siblings aged 23 (Jane b Reading) to 4. Elizabeth was born in Blandford Dorset, so seems to be the one that Carole found in 1871. There's a death of Richard Stubbles age 43 in St George Hanover Sq in March 1881.
There's an 1857 marriage in Reading of Richard Stubbles and Jane Kerley. There's an Elizabeth Kerly baptised in Blandford Forum in 1834, daughter of William and Jane. Elizabeth Stubbles eldest daughter was Jane. Elizabeth is consistently shown as born in Dorset in 1861-71-81 so I don't think there can be complications with second marriages
Any connection to Elizabeth Shorley born 1848 in Renhold escapes me! Florence's birth cert would prove or disprove my theory, which is just that - an untested theory.
Perhaps the GR contact can explain the logic. Does she have Florence's birth cert? Might there have been a Kerley/Sherley/Shorley bit of creative thinking? Doesn't explain the age/birthplace discrepancy though.
David
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I have sent a message to my GR contact asking her where she got her original information from regarding a Stubbles /Shorley marriage. Also has she any certs to back up her findings. If and when she replies i'll let all of you know.
Seems to me that she might have leapt to a few wrong conclusions.
As the Copperwheat angle is of interest to me too, i'll continue to see if i can come up with a few answers.
I greatly appreciate all the searches you've done on our behalf. :)
poli
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Interestingly James Shorley is son of William Shorley & Letty Copperwheat, whose marriage on 27 Oct 1815 at Blunham are in names of William SHAWLEY & LATITIA Copperthwaite.
Also I use Genes Reunited & searched for James Shorley & found him in a tree I have access to, of a contact named Barry Ainge, who also has in his tree someone named Caress who is linked by marriage to my Partridges of Staploe. So I assume the Caresses link to the Shorleys somehow - therefore I also must be surely linked to the Shorleys - small world isn't it.
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Elizabeth Shorley is rather a distant relation for me --3rd cousin 3 times removed--yes it is a small world. poli :)
Does your James have a brother John and were his parents William b:1791 and Letitia b:1796. The address for these two is Renhold, Bedford
The bit in red is part of the first message i had from my GR contact.
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According to Barry Ainge's tree, that is correct. John Shorley was baptised Renhold 15 April 1821 & married Charlotte Lumbis there on 11 July 1859.
Poli, I would suggest you contact Barry on GrU as he has loads of Shorley & Copperwheat names in his tree. He descends from John & James brother William baptised 23 Mar 1817 Blunham. Their father William was baptised in Great Barford 25 Nov 1787
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If your GR contact is Marilyn then she has Florence's birth cert..
see....
http://boards.ancestry.myfamily.com/thread.aspx?m=1309.2&p=localities.britisles.england.dor.general&sort=desc
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Interesting link John. Census evidence seems to rule out Elizabeth from Renhold, so I still wonder if the "formerly Shorley" actually says "Kerley"
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Florence Stubbles seems to have married Walter Jones in Kensington in 1897, and in 1901 in Kensington, Florence Jones 27 born Paddington was living with her mother Elizabeth Stubbles 67 born Durweston Dorset.
Where does Elizabeth Shorley born 1848 Renhold come into the equation?
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johnP
If your GR contact is Marilyn then she has Florence's birth cert..
Yes, that's her
bedfordshire boy
Where does Elizabeth Shorley born 1848 Renhold come into the equation
Good question. from the message she sent me months ago she was certain that Elizabeth Shorley had married a Richard Stubbles and they went on to be parents to Florence.
The recent message i had from her seems to throw that all into question!!!
I can't follow this up for a couple of weeks, am off to the airport in 2 hours but will certainly continue with this Stubbles/Shorley saga when i return :) poli
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Hello, i have had some communication with polidor on the subject of E lizabeth Shorley.
The reason i believe she married Richard Stubbles is that i have a birth certificate for Florence Stubbles b:8 may 1873. address on the certificate was 14 windsor street. The father is named as Richard Stubbles and the mother's name was Elizabeth Stubbles formally Shorley.
as i needed comfirmation of the mother i got the birth certificate of Florence's brother Richard W Stubbles.
on his certificate the father was Richard and the mother was Elizabeth Stubbles formally Kerley.
The address was the same as that on Florence's birth certifiacate.
That is why i think i had the wrong Elizabeth.
I got the marriage cert for Richard and Elizabeth. On it Richard Stubbles and Elizabeth Kerley were married on the 23 Aug 1857 in Reading.
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hello Ausmaz & welcome to RootsChat
Is the 'formerly Shorley' on Florence's birth certificate completely legible or could it be Kerley ?
14 Windsor Street, Paddington is where the family was living on 1861 & 1871 censuses
Do you have (or are you going to get) the birth cert of son John b 1877 Pimlico. There are 2 other contacts named Dixon on GrU with him in their tree, have you contacted them to see what they know
regards John
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hello john,
yes i had already decided to order the birth certificate of John. i had thought that the name Shorley could have been mis-spelled, but after comparing the "S" in the name of both Shorley and Stubbles they looked identical. will have to wait and see what John Stubbles mother's maiden name was. i will let you know how it went.
regards Ausmaz1
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Hello Ausmaz1,
I'm glad you found us on Rootschat. After you and i had 'talked' via G.R i thought i would turn to the Rootschatters for help about the Shorley- Stubbles question. There are always people willing to help and i'm as interested as you, to see if you can get some answers.
You say---
I got the marriage cert for Richard and Elizabeth. On it Richard Stubbles and Elizabeth Kerley were married on the 23 Aug 1857 in Reading
Do the names of the witnesses on the marriage cert give any clues atall?
poli
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Hello poli,
the witnesses on the marriage certificate are Charles Aaron Stubbles and Adelaide Ried.
Richard had a brother Charles b; 1831
i will have to be patient and wait for the birth cert to arrive, i am pretty sure though that it is going to show that the mother was" Kerley" and not "Shorley" even though my cousin insists that Elizabeth Shorley is our ancester. time will tell.
Ausmaz1
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hello again,
i have just received the birth certificate for John Thomas Stubbles. His father is named as Richard Stubbles, railway porter and his mother is named as Elizabeth Stubbles formally Kerley.
So i am happy to say that my great-great grandmother was in fact Elizabeth Kerley and not Shorley. Now i have to convince my cousin of that.
I now have to find out if Elizabeth's mother was Mary Barns or Mary Ann Barns, both women married a John Kerley.
I know that Elizabeth's father was a basket maker and a parish clerk.
thankyou to all
Ausmaz1.
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Glad to hear that you finally have your answer. poli. :)
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Hi Ausmaz1
Sorry but i have only just picked up on this thread. Richard Stubbles in my wifes Gt Gt Grandfather and the Stubbles name was the reason for me getting started in Family History research 25 years ago. I have a considerable amount of info on the stubbles family and there has been a lot of research on the Kerley Line as well. My Tree is available on GenesReunited.com and at Ancestry.co.uk. You can email me direct if you would prefer. ***
Regards
Chris
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Hi Chris, we have had contact before on GR. Richard Stubbles is also my Gt Gt Grandfather. I am now researching the Kerley/Kearley surname and have been trying to find out if John Kerley married Mary Ann Barns or Mary Barns.
Ausmaz1
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Hi Again
It is Mary Ann Barnes . Also on my GR Tree.