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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: corisande on Sunday 20 September 09 12:02 BST (UK)
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I don't want to get into a political discussion here about the Cairo Gang. There is a write up about them here in Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Gang)
What I am trying to establish is the provenance of this photo that is invariably used to depict them
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Cairo_gang.jpg)
(note to copyright editor, the image is in public domain according to Wikipedia)
I have been researching J J Fitzgerald who was one of the men shot in November, on the grounds that he was a member of the gang
You can get a full write up of J J Fitzgerald that I have done here (http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-individuals/grant-charles-1881/1916-easter-rising/john-fitzgerald/john-fitzgerald.htm) This is not actually relevant to this thread, which is about the photo!
What I am trying to establish is information about the above photo
1. Do any other photos exist of the Cairo Gang in Dublin. This is the only one I have ever seen.
2. Does anyone know that this actually was them. Where does the photo come from, who took it and when.
3. There is the odd question of numbering. I have not been able to find who is attached to each number, apart from the fact that 1,2 1nd 3 were Irishmen - the implication being that the rest were English
4. If they were the spies, why on earth would they have had their photo taken together - asking for trouble.
5, Can anyone identify positively any of them from the photo
6. 14 people were shot in Nov 1920 as being the Cairo Gang! There are 10 in the photo.
7 Anyone any ideas as to where the photo was taken. If it was them, then one would think Dublin Castle, but I don't recognise the background.
So if we stick to the photo, it will stop any heat arising in the thread :)
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I have the background here, click this link (http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-individuals/grant-charles-1881/1916-easter-rising/john-fitzgerald/john-fitzgerald.htm)
It is the photograph that I am trying to identify. Everyone uses it, nobody has a list of names to the numbers, nobody knows when or where it was taken.
Many years ago I used to work for an an American tobacco company Philip Morris, they make Marlboro. I was giving a talk at a sales conference and needed a photo of the founder, one Philip Morris who came from UK. Nothing existed, I got hold of a suitable old photo of Joe Doe and used that. I was amused years later to see it being used in the companies accounts as the real Philip Morris.
I wonder if the same sort of thing happened here. If it is genuine, then someone has to know where and when it was taken. Seems very odd for a group of spies to have a group photo taken at a time when the British authorities did not even have a photo of Collins!
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I have now found the email address of a TCD academic who has written a paper on the psychological effects in later life on the Squad members who carried out the killings.
I am trying her to see if see knows anything about the photo. It must have come from somewhere.
I thought it was worth trying here just in case anyone could pin it down!.
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I have now been contacted by someone who is doing a TV documentary on this episode. Although they have not seen it there, they believe that the original of the Cairo Gang photo is owned by The National Library of Ireland
I have had a go at the NLI on line catalogue, but could not ascertain whether they have it or not
If they do it should be possible to find the key to the numbers against each person.
Anyone able to say if the NLI have it?
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I have now found the email address of a TCD academic who has written a paper on the psychological effects in later life on the Squad members who carried out the killings.
If that's available online I'd love a link. If it's just an email addr maybe it's best not putting that up.
(Sorry the pictures origins is a mystery to me too.)
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dont know if you've already seen this ..but the image is included in the Getty Image Archives (http://www.gettyimages.com/) and is credited to a Sean Sexton, who seems to have been a photo archivist based in Dublin.
There's a book of his work listed on Amazon - The Irish: A Photohistory, 1840-1940 (http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Photohistory-1840-1940-Sean-Sexton/dp/0500510970)
Shane
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Shane
Thanks for adding that info. I knew from Wikipedia that it was a Getty Image, but knew that they would not be the originators
Sean Sexton, was he the actual photographer, do you reckon, or did he just compile a photo archive collection from works of others.?
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it looks like he was more a collector than a photographer..
I'll check the directories to see if there is any mention of him .. as a photographer or otherwise
Shane
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Sean seems to have started his collection in the 1970s - the PhotoHistory book was published recently (c2003) and he is mentioned as buying items at various auctions (http://www.iphotocentral.com/news/issue_view.php/20/16) around the same time.
there's more details on the book and him here (http://www.irishartsreview.com/html/vol21_no2/reviews21_02/review21_02text.htm) and here (http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/book-reviews/irish-photohistory/)
the publishers have a website at - http://www.thamesandhudson.com maybe they could pass on a query ..
Shane
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Shane
Thanks for that lead, I will try the Publishers, but publishers are never quick or reliable in allowing one to contact authors. I have to send them a letter, which they will send on to him, and one has no idea if he ever gets it!
You would think that authors would have web site and one could get them through that, but as far as I can see Sean Sexton does not have a web site of his own :-(
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some details on a documentary made by RTE on Seán :
http://www.tcd.ie/irishfilm/showfilm.php?fid=41120
Shane
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I'm a complete 100% certified genealogy amateur who being new to the Rootschat forum remain constantly captivated and astonished by, a) the breadth of knowledge of the main contributors, b) the bountiful helpfulness of so many and c) the unlimited and fascinating links that I am always surprised by. I usually use the site to ask for help. I now feel suitably admonished and guilty enough to offer my minuscule and inevitably totally useless contribution.
Encouraged by contributers I have taken the liberty of contacting several primary sources. Something I would never have done before. And I have been amazed by the positive responses I have had from well known authors and academics and historians. I've been quite moved by this.
I guess I'd add to Corisandes initial question that contacting whatever original and primary sources that are known or guessed at and alluded to in this post may yield constructive results.
there, I feel a bit better now, still useless, but a bit better
Denis
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15 British officers were killed in 8 locations
This I believe to be the Cairo Gang memebers!!
92 Lower Baggot Street, Cpt W.E. Newbury
119 Lower Baggot Street, Cpt George T. Baggally
28 Earlsfort Terrace, Cpt John Fitzpatrick
117 Morehampton Road, Cpt Donald L. McClean, T.H.Smith
22 Lower Mount Street, Lt H. Angliss (Patrick McMahon), Auxilary Cadets Garner and Morris
38 Upper Mount Street, Lt Peter Ames, Cpt George Bennett
28 Upper Pembrooke Road, Maj Dowling, Cpt Leonard Price
Upper Sackville Street, Gresham Hotel, Cpt Patrick McCormack, L.E. Wilde
This comes directly from my book Dublin in Rebellion, p. 250
http://www.lilliputpress.ie/author.html?author=Connell%2C+Joseph+E.A.
However, the book correctly lists W."E." Newbury as W."F." Newbury; John "Fitzpatrick" as John "Fitzgerald"; Donald "McClean" as Donald "MacClean"; H. Angliss as H.R. Angliss (alias Patrick 'Paddy' McMahon); Maj Dowling as Maj C.M.G. Dowling; Patrick "McCormack" as Patrick "MacCormack".
In addition, Col. Hugh F. Montgomery is listed under 28 Pembroke Street.
I believe the book is correct and complete. If you have any questions, please contact me.
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28 Earlsfort Terrace, Cpt John Fitzpatrick
I have done a lot of work to find out more about Fitzgerald (He was a neighbour of my grandparents - and his death spooked them)
My page on Fitzgerald (http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-individuals/grant-charles-1881/1916-easter-rising/john-fitzgerald/john-fitzgerald.htm)
So little has been said or claimed about him afterward (unlike others where the men that fired the gun stood up to take the credit).
In the end I conclude that they made a mistake with Fitzgerald
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BTW, the list, and the complete discussion from p. 249 ff, are of those British agents and Auxiliaries killed on Bloody Sunday. I do not represent that they were all members of the Cairo Gang, nor that all the Cairo Gang was killed.
Moreover there were others that The Squad tried to kill on that day, and those raids were unsuccessful.
But I do believe the list in the book for Bloody Sunday is complete and correct.
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OK, I have made some progress with this photo to the extent that I have found what appears to be a list of the names from the back of the photo linked to the numbers.
- 1. Major Dowling at 28 Pembroke St
- 2. Leonard Price at 28 Pembroke St
- 3.Lewis Maclean at 117 Morehampton Road
- 4.William Frederick Newberry at 92 Lower Baggot St
- 5. Lt Peter Ashmun Ames at 38 Upper Mount St
- 6. Capt George Bennett at 38 Upper Mount St
- 7. John Fitzgerald at 28 Earlsfort Terrace
- 8. Lt Angliss AKA McMahon at 22 Lower Mount St
- 9. Capt Geoffrey Thomas Bagally at 119 Baggott St
- 10.not named
This naming poses more questions than it answers. A number of men escaped death, through a variety of circumstances.
- Peel (barracaded himself in his room, and shots through the door missed him).
- Caldow (brother in law of MacLean, and survived his wounds, MacLean died),
- Captain Keenlyside (shot & wounded, but survived)
- Murray (wounded and survived) ,
- Col Jennings and Major Hardy (not in their rooms when assassins burst into their rooms),
- Major Carew( an intelligence officer on the hit list who had moved to an apartment over the road)
One would wonder that it was providential that the men who were killed just happen to be in the photo, and those who were on the list, but escaped, where not in the photo.
There is the temptation on the web to repeat rubbish, just because it it copied and pasted enough times.
I have no idea whether the list of names linked to numbers is correct. Can anyone verify it?
A the moment I still need convinced that this is a genuine photo
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I find it hard to believe that a group of agents, sent to to Dublin to carry out intelligence operations (presumably under-cover) would even meet together in a public place - let alone have their photo taken. Surely they would have been more sophisticated than that ?
Shane
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If they were the spies, why on earth would they have had their photo taken together - asking for trouble.
Shane
I agree entirely, and the above was one of my points when I first started this thread.
However the photo itself has reached iconic status and is published and republished in any book or article written about the Cairo Gang
As you probably realise, I am skeptical about the provenance of this photo, but as far as I can see anyone researching the Cairo Gang up till now has accepted the photo just because everyone else has.
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call me a sceptic ... but without knowing the provenance of the photo I'd find it hard to believe..
I wonder if there are any contemporary photos of these men to compare with - e.g. in earlier English newspaper articles etc
Shane
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I wonder if there are any contemporary photos of these men to compare with - e.g. in earlier English newspaper articles etc
I have tired and failed to find any. One of the problems here is that given the circumstances of the men's deaths, they tend not to be discussed even today in Ireland
John Fitzgerald in particular, I have delved into in depth (http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/cairo-gang/fitzgerald.html) but never managed to unearth a family member who might have a photo.
I found a photo of the grave of Angliss on this page (http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/cairo-gang/angliss.html) but not the man
No photos seem to have been published at the times of their deaths, again for obvious reasons.
Having said all that, it would be very difficult to be sure of an identification from a photo. I have tried with the men in Casement's Irish Brigade, where I have comparison photos, but I cannot be sure of the identification of the man in a group photo.
And in the case of the Cairo gang, their faces are not easy to pull out, and their caps confuse identity.
Having said all that, if you have a photo of any of them, I would be very grateful
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very long shot I know but I was thinking mainly of earlier photos - e.g. after WW1, or when they were promoted or married etc..
Shane
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Shane
I have been looking for any photos of these men.
Trouble is that photos are usually in the family, rather than public. Wedding photos seem to have been less published during the WW1 as you might expect
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Another piece of what is probably misinformation that one finds on the web (an example here (http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/forgten4.html)) invariably refers to numbers 1, 2 and 3 as being Irishmen.
That does not gel with the list I put in in OP above. Dowling, Price and MacLean were certainly not Irish. In other words, at least one, and probably both, are wrong
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I came across a fascinating book, available online, written by the wife of one of the men shot but not killed
Read on Googlebooks (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JvygsIcxb-cC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Experiences+of+an+Officer%27s+Wife+in+Ireland&source=bl&ots=z6Jk8nBdeE&sig=LaRT_TdM1KXL-BUkluqAP9oG_yA&hl=en&ei=hYT9S7eZL8SJ4ga_jemAAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Experiences%20of%20an%20Officer%27s%20Wife%20in%20Ireland&f=false)
Or as a free ebook here (http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/officers-wife/experiences-of-an-officers-wife-in-ireland-ala.shtml)
Mrs Woodcock wrote this 3 weeks after watching two men murdered and 4 more wounded in the shootings at 28 Upper Pembroke St on 21 Nov 1920
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OK update on this photo
Happy to say a little progress. I have established that there are 2 versions of this photograph
1. Getty images who credit it Sean Sexton a Dublin photo collector who found it in the 1960s. This link is to their page (http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx?query=z.i.H4sIAAAAAAAEAO29B2AcSZYlJi9tynt_SvVK1-B0oQiAYBMk2JBAEOzBiM3mkuwdaUcjKasqgcplVmVdZhZAzO2dvPfee--999577733ujudTif33_8_XGZkAWz2zkrayZ4hgKrIHz9-fB8_In7dfLn91etf49f4NX6PX_dskV3kvyb9-pj-_xtNs6Ku0tl6UhbLX3OEj3-N3-DXGH5-TfMzqauqfZnV2aL5tfWzXwv_393Br7-7af-b4Z_fiP7_6717fd2cvjMwfk3vb343Oze__pr6O8D92tn51Hbp_4E-f80d7nHRujfd778ONS7tF_YvvPfr0h_1woIN__z18dEu_vr1-POJhdH5m187D6HYPxnKjoVy3oHi_ubX6hCK_ZOh7FkodQeK-5sok5uX-A8mz6-hZNrFp7-h-fo3xj8gHNEkX5lPf83gr187nzT2G_MHEzt3OHi__1q5a-79_ms3q5X9HH8YHH8r--Ll1L3ofv91qtpjFfsXfzXJ_a_MX3h-7dnV0vz-a5o_fh38v1l74wn--rXzzGHg_0G_r_wv7B-_bhNAC__8td89e-74lf6wX2S1h5v3x2_UTKtV_mS9nJUeEYNPDcAfB5wHO_fx-69DPLS2zYO_aP6dRPh__Hov8qu8afXH_wM4OaO1EgQAAA..&sx=AllEditorial)
2. Nat Lib Ireland who credit it to Piaris Beaslai click this link, and go to number 39 of that collection (http://hip.nli.ie/ipac20/ipac.jsp?session=12DG42S034801.2367699&source=~!horizon&profile=fi&page=4&group=0&term=Piaras+Béaslaí+Collection&index=AUTHOR&uindex=&aspect=advanced&menu=search&ri=12&ts=1275427163313&deduping=#focus)
3. NLI have now examined their original (it is not a negative by the way) and tell me
"The photograph is part of the Piaris Beaslai Collection, acquired in 1966 from the executors of his estate. The photograph was acquired in an envelope marked Cairo Gang "F" Coy Aux. I have not seen the London Illustrated News that you mention, but for the moment we will not be changing the catalogue record."
4. I have now got photos of nearly all the men shot on Bloody Sunday click this link to my page on them and you will see then on that page (http://www.cairogang.com/index.html)
5. There is a long thread on Great War Forum on the subject (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=110794&st=25&start=25) if you are looking for more information
The providence of the photo is now starting to evolve around F Company Auxiliaries in Dublin Castle. A rational explanation would be that this is the "real" Cairo Gang, and somehow the name got attached to the men murdered on 21 Nov 1920. Some of the men in F Company Auxiliaries were on the hit list that day (Capts Hardy and King) but escaped, so to that extent there is an overlap.
What I am looking for now is a photograph of F Company. I found a reference to a "well known" photo of about 19 men in F Coy, but have not been able to find it.
Can anyone help with a photo of F Coy?
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I have now tracked down a photo of one of the men that ought to be in the "Cairo Gang" photo
Trouble is it is taken in 1942 and Cairo Gang photo dates from 1920. Are they the same man
(http://www.cairogang.com/escaped/king/Cairo_gang-dup.jpg)
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difficult to tell - but it looks to me that the shape of the nose, width of the mouth, the position of the ears relative to the nose, and shape of the upper eye sockets are different..
Shane
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Shane
I thought he might be the same man, but cannot really tell
The photo was put up on a web site but the person who post it last year appears to no longer haunt that site, and has not replied to my emails.
If/when I track them down, I should be able to get an older photo of the man, which would make comparison easier
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The angle of the faces relative to the camera are very slightly different - but I've highlighted the two difference that look most significant to me ..
red line - comparison positions of nose and ears
blue circle - man in the older photo has a more pronounced chin, and the other appears to have a flatter chin and maybe a shadow of a dimple.
Shane
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Taking into account the 20 year age difference I think it could be the same guy.
The length to width ratio of the face are about the same.
The older guy looks like he may have had his nose broken at some point by a blow from his left hand side (possibly administered by a right-handed person). This would account for the apparent difference in nose shape.
The upper eye-lids visibly sag during the middle years.
The ear to nose relationship is not easy to determine from a face-on view. The tilt of the head (side-to-side and up-to-down) can make a big difference. Try it in a mirror. The younger guy has a more arrogant pose with the chin thrust out.
It might be an idea to put the two pictures on the Photo Restoration page and see if one of the experts there can super-impose the 2 pictures. That might be better than a side by side comparison.
Dara.
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It might be an idea to put the two pictures on the Photo Restoration page and see if one of the experts there can super-impose the 2 pictures.
Dara - I might try that if I cannot get a "younger " photo of the second man
The problem is that one can only get limited resolution from the "Cairo Gang" photo as there are ten blokes in it, and the individual photo is small and low resolution anyway.
I will keep plugging away to see if I can get the owner of the second photo to respond
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Shane
I see what you mean by relative position of nose and ears, they do look wrong - you sound as if you know about these things.
I have no idea how much difference camera angle can make. Could that explain it or not
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If the head is tilted backwards or forwards it will alter the relative position of nose to ears when viewed from the front - but the faces in both photos look reasonably upright to me... although the older man could have his head tilted down a little bit, which would lower his nose
Shane
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Thanks Shane
I have worked on the assumption that if the "Cairo Gang" photo was in fact "F Coy Aux Div" , then the "lead" man in Cairo Gang photo is the man in command of F Coy
The man whose photo I have aged 60 is the man who commanded F Coy at this time.
I will keep plugging away to get a photo of him at the same sort of age.
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"Bureau of Military History" "witness statements"
Are these available for purchase anywhere, either CD or book form. I have had a troll round the web, but as far as I can see, the only way to read these statements is to go into NA or the Military Barracks (with an appointment)
Correct or not?
If correct, any difference in what one can read with the Irish Army, or in NA ?
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I checked this out a long time ago and at that time you could order them from the NAI @ 2.54 Euro per statement.
Worth an e-mail to find out if they still run this service.
Dara.
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Thanks Dara
But what I was wanting was to buy the job lot. Like one can get the CD with Special Branch Files.
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Let me try another approach with the "Cairo Gang" photo - its on my original post at the start of this thread.
Does anyone recognise the location. It has been suggested that it might be Lower Castle Yard. My knowledge of Lower Castle Yard is not great - only from having wandered though it on a few occasions.
Perhaps someone who knows the area well might be able to say if there was somewhere in Dublin Castle where it might have been taken.
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Having got as far as I can with researching the men murdered or escaped, I am looking at the IRA men involved.
If anyone has personal knowledge of people in their family, perhaps they could post it here. There were over 200 men involved, one way or another that morning. The number who carried out the shootings was about 30, the rest were look-outs, getaway drivers, first-aid men, and so on.
I have started to build a list on this web page, (http://www.cairogang.com/ira-men/IRA-MEN.html) but it is early days and most have very little on them. Anything anyone can add from whatever source would be welcomed
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Great Minds & all that I was going to ask you if you would like me to put a bio of my great uncle Johnny Wilson together for your site, I may be able to get a picture but this will take time.There was a picture of him in full Uniform from the Civil War I know that my family & his family had one,but both seem to have gone missing :(.So it will be a picture of him in later life.
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Gary
Thanks, that would be really good. I am interested both in his life and what he did on Bloody Sunday. As you can see from my link I am constructing a page on each of them
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You probably have seen all this but for everyone following this story and anyone looking for another source for relatives in Bloody Sunday, here's a bit about Ardal O'Hanlon's discoveries on "who do you think you are?"
http://www.rte.ie/tv/whodoyouthinkyouare/s1/outline_ardal-ohanlon.html
It does give a bit of detail about the target.
I'd love to accidentally get locked in that room for a weekend with those Ernie O'Malley interviews.
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Thanks
It is in interesting example of the problems both with "Who do you think you are" and "history as people want to write it"
Ardal was able to discover that his grandfather's target was a Captain Brian Keenlyside, lodging in Pembroke Street in the centre of Dublin. Keenlyside survived, partly because his wife was in bed with him at the time, and threw her arms around him.
Keenlyside survived, and in fact was not a "target". He was, as the Americans say, "collateral". He happened to appear when he heard shots. He was a regimental officer, not on the list
His grandfather's target was Major Dowling. 4 men were assigned to Dowling, Paddy Flannagan did the shooting, Andy Cooney and Mick O'Hanlon were also there in the room, plus Charlie Dalton who was the intelligence officer.
When you think about it WDYTYA have not the time to really research facts, they need to bang something out for a programme within budget. Though to be fair, Ardal O'Hanlon (such is the price of fame, I have no idea who he is!) may not have wanted the details of the particularly brutal murder of Dowling put out - they are given in Carlie Dalton's O'Malley interview.
They also say there
O'Malley was a former IRA commander who later interviewed more than 400 volunteers as a valuable slice of Irish history. The entire interview notebooks are available to view as computer scans, but Ardal was allowed to handle and read the original hand-written transcript
As far as I know, one cannot buy the scans. Perhaps someone will let me know if I have missed anything there.
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Ardal is a successful stand up comedian but most famous for his role in C4's " Father Ted" .
His father is a famous Fianna Fail politician. He retired recently as Ceann Comhairle, Dail Eireann
Its a shame it hasn't turned up on youtube as I think that link was possibly not well worded.
Ardal did get a bit uneasy about what he was hearing if I remember rightly. He doesn't strike me as the type who would dress it up. He's not overly politically correct. So maybe the programme did a more accurate job than that summary.
Though I know what you mean about WDYTYA. Sometimes strange things are highlighted disproportionately. And the whole thing is getting a bit over the top. Nobody seems to be related to a labourer or farmer anymore. The American one now is so over done with flashbacks of what they just told you five minutes ago it's hard to watch.
If mankind is still evolving, we are doing our damnest to get dimmer.
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Nobody seems to be related to a labourer or farmer anymore
I am - that is my g-g-grandfather on the left here
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Another photo that I have come across is this group (out of copyright) of British Intelligence officers at Dublin Castle in 1920. The background looks like a studio background.
(http://www.cairogang.com/images/British%20Intelligence%20Dublin%201920.jpg)
Apparently Basil Clarke is standing extreme left. Has anyone come across the names that go with this photo?
I believe that this is more "genuine" that the Cairo Gang (though of a different sort of person, the men that organised the intelligence, rather than those on the ground who carried out executions)
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I have been told that this photo is in fact the new British Administration in early 1920, rather than the Intelligence people.
Basil Clarke was part of the propaganda dept, rather than intelligence.
These are the people in the above photo, so I am back to square one with names for the "Cairo Gang" photo
(http://www.cairogang.com/images/BritishIntelligenceDublinNa.jpg)
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Keep digging,your doing a great job so far with your website.All it takes is one lead & you will make good pregress.I have to say I was dissapointed With the Book "The Squad" I was expecting it too be a lot better researched.
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Hi Corisande,
I was going to PM you as I'm going to go a little off topic, but I thought, you never know if it would lead further if it was on the tread.
My Grandfather Michael Smith was sent to warn Detective O'Brien in his home on Glengarriff Parade.
This is on his pension application for the period 1919-1920.
Not Bloody Sunday, I know, but in my eyes I find this the run up to assassination in the home type of mentality. They tied him up, gagged and searched him, ordered him to kneel and threatened to kill him if he continued investigating the IRA.
The other man that was carrying out this with him he calls Farren. He described him as having bright red hair concealed under a cap.
I just thought this Farren may turn up on Bloody Sunday to as he seemed like my grandfather, to be getting into a different style of activity.
There's an account given in the Squad book that is from the Detective's point of view.
(The info I have is from a little a account he gave to his son possibly when he was getting on a bit so accuracy wasn't a worry, but it's also on his pension application.)
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As you say, one never knows what bits of input will tip out memories or lurkers :)
Do you have a date for that O'Brien episode? I have not come across Farren (yet) in relation to Bloody Sunday.
I am working through the various British people connected to Bloody Sunday first, as they are easier to research on the wen. I hope to get on to the IRA men soon, and in the meantime I continue to build a database of info on each name that comes up
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I've conflicting dates to go by, I'm afraid.
My Grandfather says the next day he was part of an armed guard for Michael Collins as he was expected to be arrested at the Sinn fein Ard Feis in the mansion house.
Now I'd give him licence to get things jumbled as he was re telling this many years later.
The squad book, it's described as the night after the Ard Feis. And then the books goes on to say the day after the warning of Detective O'Brien, and similar incident involving Detective Sergent Nicholas Halley, it was discussed in the Dail. That was the 10th so if the book is accurate that would mean it happened on the 9th April 1919.
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Another lead that somebody may be able to follow. I have just been sent the cover photo of a book called just published
"Executed for Ireland" by May Moran
Patrick Moran is the man executed for the wrong crime. He led the raid on the Gresham Hotel, but was hanged for the Upper Mount St raid
The cover of the book shows that the writer knows Moran led the Gresham raid
There is the possibility that they "name names" in the book, which would be of interest to those here whose ancestors were involved that day - I suspect some of the contributors to this thread.
If anyone can access the book, can they post any names on the group who raided the Gresham here. Any any other details it gives on Gresham Raid
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Hi all,
think the person in the photo taken during the Second World War is Captain King (Tiny) of F company Auxiliary Division. I also beleive that Leonard Price was fatally wounded in the shootout with Sean Treacy in Talbot Street in 1920.
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Having finally got to the bottom of who the men in the photo were - they were indeed F Company ADRIC men, and the IRA intelligence book in Bureau Military History gave me their names. They were nothing to do with the men murdered on Bloody Sunday
A fuller explanation is on this link (http://www.cairogang.com/images/gang-photo/gang-photo.html)
I am now trying to tie down the earliest verifiable reference to the actual words "Cairo Gang". In a discussion in Great War Forum, gailgoir came up with 1958 as a starting point.
Can anyone find an earlier reference than this to "Cairo Gang"
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Corisande, came across a W.E.Crewe, Intelligence Officer, "F" Co. Auxiliary, with photographs on R.I.C/ Auxiliary Forum, I posted some photos on there from the Piaras Beaslai Papers, which you might be interested in, one relates to 6 members of "F" Co, one of them is Reynolds who was giving information to I.R.A. Intelligence.
CSM
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CSM
Thanks, I have those photos already. Got mine from IRA Intelligence Book in Bureau of Military History.
Many of the photos the IRA had were copies or copies of copies. The "Cairo Gang" photo had at least 2 versions of same negative
Reynolds is a particularly interesting man, have a look at my notes on him on this link, (http://www.cairogang.com/other-people/british/auxiliaries/reynolds/reynolds.html) anything anyone can add most welcome
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Hi that area near the Palace st gate could be the location. That lane was the width of a Bedford truck and had enough space to move both sides of the truck, The buildings on the right are no longer there. It was a dark grubby place even on a summers day.At the top right hand side where the trailer is. The door there led into the day room of the black and tans. They moved out of there shortly after they murdered McKee Clune Clancy. The front door leads out into the lane at the side of city hall. There was a little museum in that room for a number of years. They moved out to a house at Ships St gate, There were cells along the corridor. also cells down into the ground about ten feet in the door on the right. There was a way through there up to the upper yard you came out the door in the building in the right hand cornor , Could be the stamping branch was there.There was a small yard where you could put someone into and in a second door was a spy hole You could see the person but they could not see you. There was an area there like the back ground in the photo.