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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: karens925 on Saturday 19 September 09 18:58 BST (UK)
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I have been looking at the opi records for Scotland and have found a record with the father named but not the mother. There is just a blank space in the writing. Why would this be? I was thinking it was a illegimate birth and the father has taken responibilty, but it does seem odd. Any ideas?
Thanks Karen
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Hi Karen
Before the start of official registration in Scotland (1855), the format used for Old Parish Register entries varied enormously. Some parishes, particularly the further back you go, only included the father's name (as if the mother had nothing to do with it ::)). It doesn't mean the birth was illegitimate it was just a matter of practice for that parish for that period of time.
Monica :)
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It was the same in England. I have baptism records from the 1600/1700s of some of my ancestors, but only the father is mentioned.
Lizzie
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Hi,
thanks, its not just that the mother isn't mentioned theres a deliberate gap where her name is supposed to be. The other births recorded on the same page have both mother and father. I just find it odd that there is a gap.
Karen
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What date are you talking about Karen?
In England parish registers were (are?) often written up from notebooks or day books at a later date. Maybe the mother's name hadn't been written down in the notebook, and the person writing up the record just couldn't remember it.
Anne
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Its a Scottish record from 1811, it almost strikes me as if they didn't know who the mother was lol
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I should think that was probably it. They hadn't written her name down, and didn't remember it. Did the couple have other children baptised in the same parish, or were they just passing through?
Anne
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I hadn't thought of looking for other children, its just trying to narrow down the name as there are quite a few and by the 1841 census John Cullen was married, I cant see which one (James Cullen) is his father. So unsure of what to do now...!!
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Sorry Karen, I thought yours was a general query rather than one connected with your own research.
Are you looking for the father of your John Cullen? And if you know that his father was a James can I ask how you know that?
I'm not the best person to help you I'm afraid, as I don't know anything about Scottish records. I'm sure someone else will be along in a minute!
Anne
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Hi Karen
What information do you have to date? Where was John Cullen born? You could do a couple of searches. I would try first on IGI www.familysearch.org with the specific batch number for where John was born - http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountryScotland.htm
This lets you search with very little info, e.g. just father's name for example to see what else shows. I couldn't see any reference to John Cullen's birth in 1811 with a father James, but other siblings may show on IGI. You can also search on SP with just father's name with a year range and area.
Did John Cullen die in Scotland after 1855? If so, his death certificate should include details of his parents' names if known to the informant.
Another possible source of clues is to see the names in order that he gave his children to check whether he followed some form of Scottish naming pattern, not always followed in precise order but it is great how often it was! For this you would have to know the name of John's wife.
Monica :)
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Karen, I'm sorry to go off on a tangent within your thread, but can I say a huge 'thanks' to Monica?
Monica, I just clicked on the link you gave Karen (above) and it's wonderful! I find IGI quite cumbersome, but this is brilliant.
Thanks very much,
Maggie
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IGI is such a fantastic tool but it does have its tricks as all these databases do.
A couple of other useful searches which work best in Scotland than England because mother's maiden names are included on Scottish records:
1. A parent search which lets you find all children born to that couple where records have been extracted from Statutory registers and the OPRs onto IGI.
2. With illegitimate births where the child is know by their reputed father's surname, you can search by just first name only and then mother's name including surname (this is also useful when family surname can be mistrancribed and is hard to find due to variants and the mother's surname is more straightforward).
Hope you find what you are looking for Maggie :)
Monica
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Sorry Ive got awfully confused with dates and names ...not surprising really theres far too many ancestors!!!
I am looking for the mother and father of John Cullen, he was born 1801 in Crimond Aberdeen, married 26-12-1822 to an Elizabeth Smith, on the 1851 Census and died 1859 Longside Aberdeenshire.
I thought (in my thought process which could be way off) that the John Cullen born at that time to a father by the name of James Cullen with the mothers name excluded.... I could be very wrong though...
Its still a puzzle (even if not related) as to why there was no mother mentioned.
Thankyou for the links I will go and check them out.
Karen
ps: my daughter was so impressed that we are related to the Cullens ;)
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OOOoooh he was actually born in 1796 and his father was James, who had a sister named Susanne and their father was another James. No mother mentioned on either record though!!!
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There are these three christening entry showng in Crimond with father James:
1. SUSANN CULLEN Christening: 27 FEB 1770 Crimond
2. JAMES CULLEN Christening: 10 FEB 1772 Crimond
3. JOHN CULLEN Christening: 14 SEP 1796 Crimond
Were there any parent details showing on John's 1859 death cert?
Aberdeenshire OPR birth entries are particularly bad at leaving off mother's details!
Monica
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As mentioned earlier, do you have details of who Elizabeth Smith's parents were? These are some of the children showing on IGI to a John Cullen and Elizabeth Smith:
1. MARY CULLEN Christening: 21 JUN 1823 Longside
2. ELSPET CULLEN Christening: 15 APR 1827 Longside
3. MARGARET STEPHEN CULLEN Christening: 18 NOV 1829 Longside
4. JOHN CULLENChristening: 20 DEC 1840 Longside
Monica
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Thankyou, I was wondering if you knew why Margaret had the middle name Stephen would this have been a maiden name somewhere? I will have a another look on the death certificate. I dont know who Elizabeth Smiths parents were though.
Thanks again Monica
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Hi Karen
Scottish parents liked to use family surnames as middle names for their children. Can often give clues as to names of grandparents etc.
There is a likely death for an Elizabeth Smith/Cullen b. 1798 in Longside in 1880.
Monica
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With Elizabeth's birth place showing as Old Deer, Aberdeenshire in 1861:
Elisabeth Cullen 63, Stocking Knitter, b. Old Deer
Elspet Cullen 33, gen. serv. b. Longside
Jam Setter 3, grandson b. Longside
Address: Greenhill, Longside
There is this possible IGI christening entry:
ELIZABETH SMITH Christening: 22 OCT 1797 Old Deer, Aberdeen
Parents:ANDREW SMITH and MARY HENDERSON
This might fit with first name daughter for John and Elizabeth showing as Mary. Hopefully her death cert would let you confirm :)
Monica
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What kind of name is Jam Setter !!! :o ;D
The name Henderson rings a bell though ? Ill have to check that out
thanks
Karen, who should be ironing ;)
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Using the IGI search I mentioned earlier with the batch codes for Longside, Jam Setter I think becomes ;D :
JOHN CULLEN Birth: 11 JUL 1857 Longside, Aberdeen
Mother: ELSPET CULLEN
Monica
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ah much better name ! although illegitimate :o ;)