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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: Wallytat on Thursday 17 September 09 12:00 BST (UK)
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Hi all
Can anyone help to identify from the attached photo under which Regiment :-\ David Brown served in WWI?
Wallytat
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Have you researched David Brown using the National Archives of Australia
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/recordsearch/index.aspx
sarch as guest
his records should tell you what regiment he did serve in.
Jenn
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Hello Wallytat,
Do you have a home address or place of origin for him?
Another worthwhile site is that of the AIF Project
www.aif.adfa.edu.au (http://www.aif.adfa.edu.au)
This assumes that your David Brown served overseas from Australia.
You should bring up a list of 7 David Browns and another 17 that have a middle name.
There is nothing from the photo to indicate his unit, except that he is an infantryman.
Let us know how you get on!
Dave
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Bit More,
I have spoken on the phone to rellie of mine, and she's certain that the Lemaire Studios were located in Sydney. Various photographic studios had their own"mobile stations" at many of the military enlistment camps. So I have checked the Sydney Sands directories and find in 1915 Carl Lemaire photo studios 606 George St Sydney. My rellie's forebears were early photographers in NSW and Qld, but alas she does not have negatives from times, and they were not associated with Lemaire Studios. But my rellie says "most of the negatives were given to the State Library" decades ago. Negatives had a number on them, indexed back to the contact details of the subject in each photo.
Wallytat, if you have the print, is there a number on the other side of this print? Also, perhaps a date (month and or year) the photo was taken, as that would be a good indication of the enlistment timeframe for your Chap.
Hope these thoughts help.
Cheers, JM
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This site may help. www.rar.org.au
The collar badge looks just like the rising sun badge worn on the slouch hat of the Royal Australian Regiment. He is almost certainly and infantry man.
James
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Bit More,
the Collar Badge is also very similar to that worn by the chap in the studio photo linked below. The photo was taken in April 1917, in Sydney and the subject was a Sapper in the Field Engineers.
http://cas.awm.gov.au/photograph/P01821.002
I agree that the rifle and bayonet held by chap in the photo likely indicates him to be an infantry man.
Cheers,
JM
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Thanks for the Links guys.
i have been trying all of these but when all i have to go on in David Brown who had his photo taken at a military camp in Liverpool it is hard.
i only have a copy of the photo but will see if the family can locate any numbers on the back. i sure they would have looked for these perviously as they took the photo to our local Army Museum.
i have two different birth years given by the Death cert and marriage cert but have not been able to find a birth anywhere in Vic or NSW. (there is a whole other posting here on roots chat about this).
The family story goes that this soldier was a member of the Lighthorse but his webbing does not match this story.
well off to google some photographers and more military web sites
Wallytat
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Hi Wallytat,
Not sure if this is your David Brown, but found these details on Australian War Memorial website:
David Brown
Rank: Lieutenant [Lt]
Unit: 41st Battalion (Infantry)
Service: Army
Conflict: 1914-1918
Date of death: 17 August 1918
Cause of death: Died of wounds
Cemetery or memorial details: FRANCE 148 St Sever Cemetery Rouen
War Grave Register notes: BROWN, Lt. David, M. C. 41st Bn. Australian Inf. Died of wounds 17th Aug., 1918. Son of William Edward and Mary Ann Brown, of 13, Kentville Avenue, Annandale, New South Wales. Native of Charters Towers, Queensland. Officers, B. 6. 27.
Source: AWM145 Roll of Honour cards, 1914-1918 War, Army
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It may be a good idea to read the previous thread on David to avoid duplicate searching
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,398476.0.html
and particularly this link...the family believe he enlisted using an alias..
http://www.rootschat.com/links/06zz/
Cando
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thanks Mclachlan but my guy came back to Australia.
I was hoping that if we could narrow down the search of military records to which unit he served in then we might be about to find him. seeing as we can not locate him under BDM or the NAA.
Wallytat
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Hi all,
I too have had a look through the National Archives site for a David Brown, the only likely ones I could find were KIA.
This guy doesn't look to be very tall, does the family have any idea of his height? We could probably rule out the six footers by the look of him.
I suppose the more people that have a look the better, somebody might find something that we all missed. I know I enjoy looking, after all I'm on here because I enjoy the search. It's always better if you can find something though.
mum mum
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It will not achieve a result if you keep looking for a service record for a David BROWN as his grandson has stated on the link given that I also believe he enlisted under an alias Please read the links given on previous posts for the information to help avoid duplicate searching.
David BROWN has used one alias....why?? Could this be one of the many possible reasons.
THOMPSON Robert
Father Unknown Mother Mary THOMPSON
At Carlton 1883 Reg#22253
Just exploring all possibilities.
Cando on linked thread.
Sorry Wallytat I can't help you with identifying the uniform/regiment and that is your current request. Have you thought of posting on the Armed Forces board?
Cando
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HI,
On the previous post about David Brown I believe the family thought that he had used the name David Pollock. This has been proved to be unlikely at least.
I have been told that the Archives war records are incomplete, that some records have been lost.
There are also so many Browns that it is only by trawling through all of them, and having some clue as to what we are looking for that he may be found.
I tried to narrow it down by searching for Brown's who won the Military Medal, I found one likely one who I could only find a court martial record for, not his enlistment papers which may give his place of birth, next of kin and height. As I said before, the photo makes him look very short.
mum mum
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Bit More,
Perhaps if this photo were posted on the WW1 board here at RChat someone would be able to date it, - reason being my rellie thinks that the upturn on the Slouch hat did not come into permitted uniform usage until after the Fromelles tragedies. Thus even though AIF men may have turned the Slouch up earlier, they would not usually be photographed individually with it that way. Fromelles was July 1916. If that bit of info can be verified, then this photo would have been taken AFTER July 1916, and thus the enlistment date for this chap would be AFTER July 1916. That would help eliminate quite a number of those BROWN AIF enlistments. I think there are RChatters on the WW1 board who would have better resources to confirm or deny the date for the turn up of the Slouch hat. - My rellie thinks it was something to do with the bayonet's height when presented on parade - it often hit the brim of the hat....
JM
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Re. slouch hat with upturned brim - this page shows a cartoon from 1910 showing a soldier wearing same: http://www.eurekacouncil.com.au/Australia-History/History-Pages/1914-Anzac%20Heritage.htm
I believe that the slouch hat was introduced to Victorian troops in the 1880s and NSW adopted it in 1890.
His collar badges are the Rising Sun that AIF men wore.
If there are regimental/unit insignia they will (I think - I'm no expert) be on his right arm.
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Ta Prue - for the slouch hat info, my rellie is not disagreeing about when the slouch was turned up by the wearers, but is of the view that the "authorities" only changed the printed rules for turning up the brim because of the losses (KIA and injured) at Fromelles. She recalls her forebears explaining that studios would not take photographs of men where their uniforms were not fully complying with the written rules, for fear of the studios being denied access to the military camps. She also mentioned that there may have been debate about which side to turn up, the side for the salute (right hand side) or the side for the bayonet (left hand side).
As this photo was taken by a studio at the military camp at Liverpool (a suburb of Sydney NSW), then perhaps the date that those written rules were charged could help to date and thus limit the number of candidates to help find the correct David Brown. Twas just a thought though. ;)
My rellie's forebears had photographic studios from Degurotype times until post WW2 (I'm not sure if "Degurotype" is correct spelling, but it sounds like that, - I'm only relaying phone conversations from an elderly rellie who is relying on her own childhood memories).
I have also found a website re the Light Horse, perhaps Wallytat may find it helpful in this search as there is a forum there. http://www.lighthorse.org.au/
The following link shows the various uniforms worn by AIF service men and women during WW1.
http://www.sparkefilms.com/wardrobe/ww1.html
Cheers, JM
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Daguerreotype :D
What was the name of your family's business, JM? Just out of interest...I have some books on early Aus photographers so would be interested to read about them :)
I think this thread might be better off on the Armed Forces Board - I shall ask Scrimnet to move it there.
Cheers
Prue
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Hi Prue,
I shall send you PM re the forebears names, I know that by WW1 one branch were trading as Coronation Studios in Sydney. I will check will rellie first as to the first surnames in this line, they were among first Aussie photographers, arriving in Victoria pre the gold rush....
I agree about this photo deserving the attention of the WW1 board. There's some very good RChatters who specialise in that detailed identification on that board.
JM
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Hi,
Just checked out the link about the slouch hat. See below.
The slouch hat with the left side turned up is newer than the term digger but it is also one of the legacies of that pre-Commonwealth period, just, as it dates from the Boer War. The Boer cavalry wore a hat with the right side pinned up, so the Breaker and his mates pinned up the left side of their hats to identify themselves as Australians
I had a look at the WW1 board this morning, I dont know if it was the right one but it looked to be all British.
I think we are now giving Wallytat a bit more to go on though.
mum mum
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thanks Mclachlan but my guy came back to Australia. I was hoping that if we could narrow down the search of military records to which unit he served in then we might be about to find him. seeing as we can not locate him under BDM or the NAA.
Hi Wallytat, have you considered contacting the Australian War Memorial and asking them for help or suggestions in identifying the uniform of this chap in the photo? Their website is http://www.awm.gov.au/
I'm quite sure that his service records are there on the NAA, its just a matter of having sufficient clues to know which David Brown .... there's 42 on the embarkation list at the AWM, including a
Private David BROWNLING, in the LIGHT HORSE regiment Service no. 301. One of the first to enlist, but he embarked from Brisbane Qld, and that's a very long way from Liverpool NSW
His records are digitised and available at the NAA's online site. He returned to Australia after the war.
JM
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Just to add,
If your David Brown turns out to be David Browning, then there's a great deal of family information on those NAA records, including an extract of the marriage certificate in England in 1919,- that gives his wife's nee name, and the names and occupation of both their fathers. And of course on his 1914 enlistment there's his mother who was nominated as his n o k. It shows he was born at Blayney in central western NSW. Perhaps this would be the
1891 birth registration at Carcoar (near Blayney) to Richard and Elizabeth of a son named David Browning (9967/1891 at NSW BDM reference)....
His enlistment definitely shows 2nd Light Horse Regiment, and you have mentioned the possibility that he used an alias when enlisting (Brown v Browning). The naa papers also give his age (23 years 4 months in Aug 1914) and his height 5 ft 8 1/2 inches. He weighed 164 lbs, had fair complexion, brown eyes and fair hair. And he was C of E. I cannot tell from the photo if any of that matches up with your chap.
I stress, there's NO way of knowing if your David Brown was connected to this David Browning, just on what I have posted,, SORRY but I don't know of any more ways I can try to help on this thread.
Cheers, JM
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I have tried to register for the Lighthorse asociation forum but it popped up a message to say i will get an email soon and that was two weeks ago.
I did send an email to the National archive and got a very short reply referring us back to their search page.
Thanks for the link to Sparksfilms Just Moi, i have sent them an email to see if they can help with any information on the uniform. I'll let you all know.
Yes the family can confirm that their soldier was a 'rather short man' and he did want to be a jockey.
Off now to spend the weekend srolling through war records looking for a short man, wounded in the buttock, not KIA (sadly this discounts too many), won a military medal.
Wallytat
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Thank you everyone for your replies.
We have had the details of this soldier confirmed by one of his relatives an a different geneology website.
the soldier was lighthorse but as this uniform is does not match lighthorse webbing we can only assme that he may have changed unit after initial recruitment.
Wallytat