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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: ssjdc on Wednesday 16 September 09 21:52 BST (UK)
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I don't know about you, but I'm getting pretty fed up with the post office going on strike yet again, and the certificates I have ordered from the GRO being delayed, yet again. It seems daft to me that we have to use the postal system for certificates when I think many family researchers would be happy with being emailed a copy.
The GRO say that they are required by law to produce certified copies, which means they can be used for passport applications etc., but that doesn't seems very relevant when dealing with GG-Aunt Maud's birth certificate from 1861. Maybe now with the massive growth of genealogy as a hobby there ought to be an option for non-certified copies for information only, which could be emailed.
Anyway, I'm thinking of starting a petition to get the law changed so am interested to hear what others think of the idea. Is there something I haven't thought of that would make it a non-starter, do people want the option of an emailed certificate ?
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it would certainly be a lot quicker. the only problem i see is the size of the file they would be sending. a lot of servers wont download files that big and i wouldnt want a copy thats not scanned to its full potential
perth :)
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Speaking as what, I suspect, may be termed a 'Heavy User' ~ If they were born, married or died? I want that paper! ~ I'd have to say that ;
A/ Making my own scans of e mailed copies wouldn't cut it for me. I like my bank busting folders full of bought and paid for, 'proper' Cert's. I kind of feel their possession shows my ancestors they're worth it to me.
B/ Getting the information, like same day? That'd be cool. We often as not can't move on till we've proven that relationship. Then we can research off that info' and thus buy more, loverly Certificates! ;D
But, I see a snag here. What would an e mailed scan cost? Fiver? At least? Great. So, for a fiver, we get instant gratification. But then I, at least, want to own that paper. Twelve quid a throw?! :o
Naah. I'll stick to the old fashioned method. Waiting for the next lot to turn up gives me time to concentrate on my work from the last lot, anyway :)
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I have ordered lots of certificates from the GRO......yes sometimes it has taken weeks to arrive (Australia), but they are the real thing.
Here in Australia (some States) we have the option of downloading an uncertified, image of a certificate.
I have done this a number of times...simply because I wanted the information in a hurry. After downloading it I have to print it out, some of the older certificates are, A3 size, my printer only prints A4, so it has to shrink to size.
The cost of the certificate (if you have the reference number), is the same as a certified copy sent by mail.
I'm really not happy, with the downloaded copies..I don't think you can beat the certified copies.
Sarra
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Well, I think yours is a good idea, thanks for posting. I suspect it may not be the first time the topic has been aired. People at the GRO are probably fed up with it; it gets a mention in their FAQs. The law is the law [by the way, what is the law in question and when does it date from!!??] and the GRO have to obey it. Maybe they would like to send out certificates by electronic despatch but their hands are tied by the law.
I have never had any postal strikes interfere with any GRO certificate delivery from UK to Australia and have been entirely happy with the postal service provided by GRO both cost wise and speed of despatch.
For me there is nothing special about a printed certified copy of a certificate, except perhaps ones issued at the time of the event. Modern certificates are just a piece of paper with information on it and I would be quite happy with them coming as an email attachment which I could then print out at home. Indeed, as soon as I get a printed certificate from GRO I immediately scan it and burn the file it to disc as a safety measure. I have made .jpg scanned image files of certificates at a piddling 250KB which give microscopic detail when zoomed to 100%.
I would be quite happy to pay the same price for an email attachment as a certified copy. Good luck in trying to change the law.
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The law is the law [by the way, what is the law in question and when does it date from!!??]
1953 Act for the registration of births and deaths in England and Wales
(2) Any person shall be entitled to search the said indexes at any time when the General Register Office is open for that purpose, and to have a certified copy of any entry in the said certified copies, on payment to the Registrar General or to such other person on his behalf of the following fees respectively,
Marriage Act, 1949
(2) Any person shall be entitled to search the said indexes between the hours of ten in the morning and four in the afternoon of every day, except Sundays, Christmas Day and Good Friday, and to have a certified copy of any entry in the said certified copies of marriage register books, on payment to the Registrar General or to such other person as may be appointed to act on his behalf of the following fee,
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/actind.htm
Stan
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I ordered 10 certs back in July and all received in 5 working days and that is to Perth, Aus :o :o yes I was shocked too, previously took abt 10....seems to be getting quicker..... I agree with Perth Tiger and SteveG.
Kimberly
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I knew Stan would know the answer ! ;D
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The problem is not that we can get them for a price, but that GRO entrust Royal Mail to deliver and the posties are having strike days, especially in London and are being balloted about an all out strike. I know many other companies now use alternative methods of delivery, but it's one thing paying about £5 for a large parcel (cheaper than driving to the shops, parking etc). but would you want to pay £5 postage for each certificate?
Lizzie
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GRO Certificates by email
I cannot forsee that ever happening,mainly because when you apply for a cert in person you have to fill in and sign a form my hand and answear specific questions.Last time i went for one locally i was asked for a middle name of granddad.It took me ages to remember it,because i wasn't expecting that question ;D
Celia
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GRO Certificates by email
Last time i went for one locally i was asked for a middle name of granddad.
That's interesting, Celia. I've never had the opportunity to go to the local registers because I'd left town before getting into this.
How is it then, that they give ye the third degree, whist we can just spout references to GRO and get what ever we ask for ???
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Sounds like you must have a bit of a "jobsworth" there Celia.
The local office that I have used most told me not to bother with forms but just write a letter telling them what I know. They have even phoned me up before to check they had found the right cert. and sent one application on to another office after checking first that the other office had the correct one. They are very quick (usually less than a week at the standard charge) and have been helpful in answering extra questions when I was unsure of what the information on the cert. signified.
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I've been affected by the postal strike, so I'm interested in this topic. I think it would be good to be given the choice, so people who need an actual real certificate can still get it, but those of us who don't mind an email attachment could opt for that way.
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Slightly off topic, but does anyone know, when a Certified Copy is received, and the details are hand written, is it just a copy of the Register entry? I'm wondering because the handwriting all looks so similar, yet when the Register is signed surely there should be a difference in the style of the signatures?
giraffe
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How is it then, that they give ye the third degree, whist we can just spout references to GRO and get what ever we ask for
Steve
That visited was a few years ago,but the same thing happened when mum died4 years ago age 93.The solicitor was to sell her house and mum had told me years ago she asked Gran to put the house in her name before she would move in to look after her.Or she would be homeless,Gran was going to leave everything to the cats home ;D It turned out mum never registered the house in her name.I had to get Gran's death cert for the court to prove she was deceased. I just asked the registrar for it.Didn't have a ref or nout else just the year of death.I did get the cert,but now i know how a suspect feels when they get interviewed ;D ;D
Celia
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but does anyone know, when a Certified Copy is received, and the details are hand written, is it just a copy of the Register entry?
Giraffe
Yes it is,the real cert looks totally different and is scanned.
Most are written in ink.I don't buy cert now but a few years ago i sent for a marriage cert a copied, copy, so i could move on up.I never moved up i got stuck.there were things i couldn't find and didn't make sense. After a couple of years I got some help.It turned out the person who had coppied from the original had mistranscibed the surname of g.Grandma.After that i sent for scanned ones.Harder to read but I wouldn't risk another mistranscription, would you?
Celia
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Slightly off topic, but does anyone know, when a Certified Copy is received, and the details are hand written, is it just a copy of the Register entry? I'm wondering because the handwriting all looks so similar, yet when the Register is signed surely there should be a difference in the style of the signatures?
giraffe
No, you're bang on topic here.
AsI understand it, the only certificates we can purchase in/from England & Wales are legally required to be a certified copy, that's why no email versions are available (like an Irish research cert, for instance, which is just a photocopy of the register entry).
Depending on where you get it from (and sometimes, I think the condition of the original entry) this can/will be a typed or hand-written transcription of the entry in the register. When I apply to the local registrar, more often than not, for a marriage entry, I get a photocopy of the original entry that has been scanned onto a modern certificate form and then, like the transcribed copies, it is certified (as a true copy of the entry in the register).
The central registers are only a copy of these original registers so the transcription maybe the third copy made.
The transcriptions may have errors at each stage, as may the original register, so none can be guaranteed to be error free. I presume that there is some sort of cross-check to the certification process but I could be wrong.
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Deleted, already answered.
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Thanks for all the feedback, looks like a mixed bag ! I'll probably go ahead and chase getting copies by email as it does seem there is some support. At least if it were to ever happen it would not impact those who prefer a bit of paper, so will not do any harm to go for it
ssjdc
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I've been affected by the postal strike, so I'm interested in this topic. I think it would be good to be given the choice, so people who need an actual real certificate can still get it, but those of us who don't mind an email attachment could opt for that way.
Who pays for the systems to do this to be put in place, and the staff training on how to use them ?
Assuming that you can successfully lobby to get the law changed, of course. I think you may find it easier to convince Royal Mail staff to go back to work !
The older people here may recognise the union tactic of striking in the months leading up to Christmas, so there's a healthy backlog waiting to get overtime pay on. Except that these days Royal Mail have competitors, and the union action is playing right into the hands of a government keen to sell it all off to the highest bidder.
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My twopennorth! Spelling?
I was told the 2 certs I had ordered would be dispatched on the 7th of September. As I am in Spain and there are postal problems in England I was delighted to receive them 8 days later! And they were the right ones with all the 'right' information,
Abiam
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Yes it is good to get the certificate, but only to get the info that's on it.....
If they/everyone put the info as a postem... re: BMD indexes.. a charge of... say £2.50 ...for instance, eventually, all the info would be available on-line.
Then, if you really wanted the certified copy of the original entry, it wouldn't really matter how long it took to arrive. Plus, not wasting time and money getting the wrong one...... ::) ::)
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I ordered 5 certs on 10 September, they arrived today. Unfortunately, 2 of them weren't correct, I was hoping they would be the death certs of my 3 x g.grandparents. From FreeBMD, I assumed that as the names and place of death were correct, I'd take a chance that they were my ancestors - pity I can't send them back and get a credit.
Lizzie
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Who pays for the systems to do this to be put in place, and the staff training on how to use them ?
Well, I suppose scotlandspeople could give a few tips - they give you the choice of an electronic image, delivered immediately, or a paper certificate posted. The former is cheaper than the latter.
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lesleyhannah
My grandfather conveniently died in Scotland so I was very pleased just to get an electronic image delivered immediately from Scotlandspeople, especially as it gave the name of his parents (even though he was married with a family in England).
Lizzie
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Who pays for the systems to do this to be put in place, and the staff training on how to use them ?
Well, I suppose scotlandspeople could give a few tips - they give you the choice of an electronic image, delivered immediately, or a paper certificate posted. The former is cheaper than the latter.
Different country, different laws, slightly smaller population. Lots of money from the UK.
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slightly smaller population
still in Scotland, or worldwide?
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Re handwritten Certified copies, thanks to Dudley and Celia. I thought it was strange that the parties concerned all seemed to have the same handwriting!
giraffe
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I know its nice to have the certified copies but when you are sitting in Malta trying to demolish an ancestry brickwall and there are three certificates which were ordered on the 4 September but which haven't arrived because they are most probably stuck in the postal strike, certificates by email suddenly seem very attractive.
May be the postman will bring them tomorrow :-\ :-\ :-\.
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Lots of fairly strong complaints about Royal Mail service, strikes etc...no doubt plenty of justification. But wait, on the GRO website under delivery options there is a list of alternative options for delivery, some of which do not involve Royal Mail. You may have to pay extra for these. Maybe somebody can say if they have had experience of using them!!!
Alternative postal options
Special Delivery UK Guaranteed next day delivery
DHL UK Next day delivery
Overseas Airsure Royal Mail ensure item leaves on first available flight
International Signed For Fast tracked to first available flight from UK. Signature required on delivery
[/table]
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Those options are quite a bit more expensive, and difficult to swallow unless its an emergency. I was rather hoping email would be a faster and cheaper option, like it seems to be in Scotland.
The last certificate I ordered 11 days ago has still not shown up, and is now 5 days late according to the expected despatch date. Unfortunately this is not the first time I have experienced such postal delays, hence my frustration !
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Those options are quite a bit more expensive, and difficult to swallow unless its an emergency.....
I'm glad you didn't say "life or death" ! ;D ;D ;D
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A different take on this hot topic....might help any petitioners to Parliament!!! I am not a technical expert, but here I raise the question of what constitutes a certified copy. A search of the web has turned up results like http://www.intertek-fts.com/services/electroniccertificates/ with claims like The ******** electronic certificate combines the high levels of security often associated with bank notes, but in electronic format. The certificate can be sent by email, or even fax, but cannot be falsified.
Although these electronic certificates may relate more to trade than vital events, the principle would seem the same...the need for authentic documentation that can be delivered quickly and securely. Worth thinking about.
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I am not a technical expert, but here I raise the question of what constitutes a certified copy.
The answer to that is on the certificate itself.
The certificate has been certified by the registrar, and carries the seal of the GRO.
The certificate serial number, the paper watermark and the GRO seal are all easily recognisable forms of identifying authenticity which can be done by anyone who is not sight challenged. The Intertek system requires sophisticated scanning techniques and database access, which are outside the reach of most of us.
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Just the information on the strip down the middle would surfice for me... 8)
Seals, numbers, registrar's signatures etc... doesn't add anything.
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(I'll add this in another post, because there's no way of adding text under a picture.)
There's little point in finding alternative ways of delivering certified documents, because they're all going to be expensive, because it's the certification that costs the money (the certificate costs about 20p to produce).
What potential campaigners should be thinking about is to lobby for a change in the law, which allows the contents of a certificate to be divulged, without the legal requirement of certification.
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:D Start it up then Nick... Where do I sign... ;)
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To be honest, I'm not that bothered. I quite like having the certificates with their official seals and watermarks. The only time I'm annoyed about paying £7 for a certificate, is when it's for the wrong person.
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I quite like having the certificates with their official seals and watermarks.
But what do you do with them all. I've got hundreds (many I got from someone else who was happy to pass them on to me after he'd written up that particular part of the family tree). I'm not sure my descendants will be happy with all those pieces of paper.
Lizzie
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I have 5x Robert Norris's and they're all wrong.... ::) several wrong Daisy Wood's... countless £4 debited as not same parent/spouse...
and quite a few that came with mine, obviously someone else's ::)
posted info, no-one picked them up yet........
Bet I'm not the only person with this tale.... ;)
Added Lizzie ... yes.. very grateful for the 37 in one go...
I then cut out the middle strip, lessened paper by 2/3
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I quite like having the certificates with their official seals and watermarks.
But what do you do with them all. I've got hundreds (many I got from someone else who was happy to pass them on to me after he'd written up that particular part of the family tree). I'm not sure my descendants will be happy with all those pieces of paper.
Lizzie
Why wouldn't they ? I'd be thrilled to receive anything that my ancestors passed down to me, even if it was a local newspaper from the period. Finding the Bible that my g. grandmother passed down to her family was one of the greatest thrills of my family research.
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I'd be thrilled to receive anything that my ancestors passed down to me,
Problem is, your children may destroy them after your death, unless you specifically ask for them to keep them for your g.grandchildren ;D
But I do know what you mean - now if only someone somewhere had kept g.grandad's birth certificate.
Lizzie
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Received today the 3 certificates I ordered on 4 September. Really pleased all 3 are correct and they will go a long way towards demolishing my brickwall. However, one was typed and not having received a typed one before can't help feeling a bit disappointed with it because it doesn't look quite as good as the others and out of the 3 it is the most important because it is my gt, gt grandfather's. What is the reason for this? - is it because the original entry is badly damaged and difficult to read.
But what do you do with them all. I've got hundreds (many I got from someone else who was happy to pass them on to me after he'd written up that particular part of the family tree). I'm not sure my descendants will be happy with all those pieces of paper.
I would absolutely love a box of old paper documents etc., to go through but
my much loved late gt grandmother put a lot of our family documents/photographs on the fire because they were taking up too much room in a cupboard and she decided to have a sort-out one day :o.
Luzzu
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Received today the 3 certificates I ordered on 4 September. Really pleased all 3 are correct and they will go a long way towards demolishing my brickwall. However, one was typed and not having received a typed one before can't help feeling a bit disappointed with it because it doesn't look quite as good as the others and out of the 3 it is the most important because it is my gt, gt grandfather's. What is the reason for this? - is it because the original entry is badly damaged and difficult to read.
But what do you do with them all. I've got hundreds (many I got from someone else who was happy to pass them on to me after he'd written up that particular part of the family tree). I'm not sure my descendants will be happy with all those pieces of paper.
I would absolutely love a box of old paper documents etc., to go through but
my much loved late gt grandmother put a lot of our family documents/photographs on the fire because they were taking up too much room in a cupboard and she decided to have a sort-out one day :o.
Luzzu
the certificate you receive from the GRO is not the original it is the one the clerk filled in, if you want the original with signatures then you have to get that from the registration office/area they were married in,
a typed one USUALLY is a replacement for a damaged one etc,
or as i recently found out the ones for London the Lma records recently done contain the original (photocopied) signature
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There are two copies of all BMD records. The BMD records held at the GRO are copies of the originals held by the offices where the BMDs were originally registered. If the quality of either of these is good enough, you may get a photocopy of the entry in that register, but when the original is of poor quality, the entry will be transcribed, and written either in longhand or typed.