RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: bristolacton on Wednesday 16 September 09 02:55 BST (UK)
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Hi Dawn,
I wonder if you can help me as I am trying to research my wife's grandfather , Philip Gibson , born Aug 1870 in London , and I have found a possible in the 1881 Cencus as being an inmate at Feltham Industrial School ,but have now searched this site but cannot find him ? He is a mystery and disappears in 1891 , possibly army ? as my father in law remembers that his dad was in the Boer War .
If you do find him can you also check for any other details , ie family history , reasons for entry , when he left etc .
I would appreciate any help that you can give us as we are in Canada and have to use the web for our searches , but a contact Dale Sullivan from Bristol suggested that you had a good deal of research on Feltham .
regards
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Hi bristolacton
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
The only research I have done is for chatters on here.
The main records that survive for Feltham are the discharge registers. A lot of children at these types of school went into the Army or Navy. There are a couple of miscellaneous general indexes but they are not complete.
I will check the discharge registers for Philip Gibson and see if there is any further information.
Dawn
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Hi Dawn ,
Did you have any success in searching for discharge information for Philip Gibson from Feltham ?
regards,
Bristolacton
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Hi
Have looked at the census and a Philip Gibson is shown on the list of inmates further down the page. He is also shown as being born in Bethnal Green. Taking this into account there is a baptism record for a Philip Gibson dated 18/9/1870 ,Tower Hamlets, Bethnal Green. Parents are shown as Philip and Mary Ann of 14 Tysea St ? and occ is confectioner. Hope this helps.
Regards
Clare
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There would appear to be two more children born to this couple.
Ellen b 27/12 c 4/2/77 St James the Great living at 33 West? St.occ pastry cook
Charles Michael b Feb 29 c 21/3/1880 29 Kingsland Rd occ Pastry cook.
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Thanks Clare ,
We had found the Cencus but are trying to find where Philip Gibson went after Feltham School , as he disappears by the 1891 Cencus , but could be in the Army ? or abroad somewhere ? so we are hoping that the discharge information points us in a good direction .
Philip Gibson's past until he arrived in Bristol in 1928 is sketchy at best so we are looking for confirmation
regards
dave
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Hello
I live in feltham - just up the road in fact to where the industrial school was. I dont know about names and dates of inmates etc. But I do know that a lot of boys were actually shipped off to "Canada" of all places; but most were made to join the army. Here is some info about the the school
The Feltham Industrial School was also known as the Middlesex Industrial School. It was founded in 1854 by its own act of parliament and was the first “State” recognised industrial school. It was a large institutional building, set in 100 acres of land, situated at Bedfont Road, where Feltham Young Offenders is today. The school also had its own infirmary, workshops, gas factory, residences for the officers and a chapel, lead by a Reverend Leslie.
It was certified to hold up to 700 boys between the ages of 7 – 14 years and had 52 staff members. The boys would be sent from all over London. They would have been given varied sentences, but the majority of boys would stay until they reached 16 years of age. Boys would be sent to the school for many different reasons, ranging from begging, being in the company of criminals or even for just being an orphan. Very rarely, would they be sent to the industrial school for committing actual crimes, as a reformatory school would normally be used for that punishment.
Once at the Industrial School, the boys were made to work long hours out on the farms. They also had to make their own clothes and boots, but they did receive some basic education. When they had served their sentence, normally at 16 years of age, the boys were licenced out to work; for example, they were made to join the army. Alternatively, or for younger boys, they would be sent to Canada. There would be large groups of boys packed off, on a ship to start a new life. This was accomplished with the help of Barnado’s and they were chaperoned by the Reverend Leslie.
The Feltham Industrial School closed in 1909 and in 1910 the Prison Commission became the new owners, and a year later it re-opened as Feltham Borstal. Although, during the First World War it was actually used as an internment camp for foreigners, but it finally re-opened as a Borstal in 1919.
Julie
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Thanks Julie for the Feltham Background and it is interesting that you note that boys left to join the Army . I think this happened to our ancestor Philip Gibson as he disappears by 1891 Cencus ?
regards
dave
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Hi Dawn, I have just seen your message up here - I think I have found out that Philip died in Bristol in 1942 ? It was said that at the time he was living with a May, Maise or Maisie Gibson and a Roy ? Do you know anything about these people as I am looking for an Alice May Gibson/Ball & Her Son Roy ? We think she was born about 1894 possibly in London and Roy was born in 1922 in Edmonton Middlesex ?
I also read that Philip may have been in Clutton Somerset and also in Monmouthshire before he went to Bristol ?
Many Thanks - Regards Pat.
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Hi Dave, I have just seen your message up here - I think I have found out that Philip died in Bristol in 1942 ? It was said that at the time he was living with a May, Maise or Maisie Gibson and a Roy ? Do you know anything about these people as I am looking for an Alice May Gibson/Ball & Her Son Roy ? We think she was born about 1894 possibly in London and Roy was born in 1922 in Edmonton Middlesex ? Alice May Gibson's Father could have been John William Gibson who was A Fishmonger in 1916 ?
I also read that Philip may have been in Clutton Somerset and also in Monmouthshire before he went to Bristol ?
Many Thanks - Regards Pat.
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Philip Gibson married Emily Porter, 25 Oct 1893 at St James Bristol
father Philip Gibson
father William Porter
Dec 1893 Bristol vol 6a page 27 (if you want to send off for the cert)
by 1901 they are living in Clutton Somerset with daughter Emily age 6, Philip is an art decorator
1911 Emily is on her own in Bristol with daughter Emily, though she says married not widowed
Philip meanwhile appears to be in Cardiff with "wife" Ann and 2 children... Ann and eldest child, age 7, were both born in Bristol. He is a house decorator
I somehow can't envisage an art decorator enlisting to the army at the age of 30 +
Philip dies 1942 Bristol age 72
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Pat, I think Dave can fill you in with some details...
I can't post details on the board of someone born in 1924 (under the mothers maidename not Gibson) as they may still be living.
The mother,Violet M Bratchell, initially married in 1919 to a Gilbert Latham but by 1924 she is in Newport area having a son registering him under her maiden name.
She dies in 1967 Bristol under the name Gibson, as far as I can tell they never married (not in England and Wales anyway)
So far Philip appears to have had 4 children with 3 women
Emily born 1895
Millie/Nillie? born 1904
Philip born 1907
and youngest son 1924
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i have found my gt.gt uncle james thorp born 1872 in bethnall green at feltham indu scholl.he was sent along with 36 other boys to winniepeg on the sarmathian ship care of Reverend McMither .i find him again in the 1901 cencus in america.however i have no idea why he would have been sent to that school or why his perants who were both alive should let him be sent away aged 15 in 1888?anyone have anything at all on him as to why he was sent there(the school) and later why he would be sent to canada and where did he first go when he arrived there?[
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He was most probably admitted to Feltham as a result of petty crime or a minor misdemeanor.
The records do survive and are deposited at the London Metropolitan Archives.
You can search the catalogue from here
https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/history-and-heritage/london-metropolitan-archives/about-lma/enquiry-service
The reference for this institution is MA/GS-1
The records are not digitised and need to be viewed in person.
There's also information about the actual establishment here
http://www.childrenshomes.org.uk/FelthamBI/
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yes i saw this.however i am disabled and live far from london.i didnt knowmif anyone was near they could find out for me.i really need to know who the perants of this james thorpe were to be sure it was him on the ship to winnieprg.never mind.perhaps one day they will put them on the web.thanks anyway for the info you have been able to give me.cathayb
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Hi cathayb
Researchers in and around London who do look-ups are few and far between.
You might have a bit of a wait.
Dawn
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Hello,
Seeking more information on Young Offenders from Feltham and how they reached the Welsh farms from 1891 to 1911. Was it the Church that took charge or possibly Barnardo's. There were quite a few employed/working on the farms.
The links included don't seem to work for me.
Grateful for any assistance. Thank you
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I've updated the broken links.
Maybe contact the London Metropolitan Archives to see if they can offer further insights if the new links don't help.
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it has been ages since I did this search.I found james Thorpe was definately sent to Winniepeg by Dr.Barnardos.It would seem all british home School children as they were Known were sent either to Winniepeg or Australia by Dr,Barnardos or the Catholic Church and without the parents permission either.I do not know if any were sent to Wales??There is a facebook page for British home School children.
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Thanks for the update and tweaking the links.
As I understand it, these boys were arrested, sent by magistrate to Feltham until they were 16. They were then able to join a scheme to work in rural Wales, arriving by train I assume. They were allocated to rural farms in totally Welsh speaking communities - so who did the organising in Wales - more research required!
My Parish has about 10 -15 of these boys/farm workers; over 70 Parishes in Carmarthenshire plus they were in Breconshire, Cardiganshire, possibly Pembrokeshire. Basically, quite a lot were moved to Wales. Some learnt Welsh and were absorbed into these rural communities.
Any further information would be useful.
Best wishes.
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A book worth reading, if you can get a hold of it, is Guttersnipe by Sam Shaw. Amazing detail of daily life at Feltham Industrial School, followed by his immersion into a Welsh world on a farm in West Wales.
This was the history of my great grandfather, Frank Eldred. Taken off the street in 1890, and on the census return in Feltham industrial school in 1891. His discharge recorded show the details of the farms he was sent to in West Wales in 1894, with an assessment of how he was getting on. These records I got from London Archives.
He settled in the Welsh speaking village where my grandad , my dad and I were all raised (as Welsh speakers). My dad told me that his grandad could speak Welsh albeit with a ‘Cockney’ accent.
There were agents in this part of Wales (Carmarthenshire). That’s how many boys from Feltham ended up here. My friends Greatgrandad , Harry Dalton, had the same story 10 years earlier.
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Hello Barbara and thank you for the message and information.
I've not read Sam Shaw's book, but he is/was the starting point for this research/project we have.
To take it further, I'm still confused between Feltham and Barnardo's. Were they working together? Who was finding these farms, that is who were the agents? At present (and still counting), I have over 35 in one Parish.
Regarding the records from London Archives - were they easily obtainable - are they online - how much information did you get from them?
Apologies for hijacking this thread from its original track and the Canada link.
Thanks in advance.