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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: katie1630 on Tuesday 15 September 09 20:26 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I'm looking up my mums side of the family and have only got a far as my great grandfather as, according to family stories, my great great grandfather came over from Ireland to England in the 1880's and changed his name but we have no details of what his name was before!
He became as master mariner and resided in Bradford with his wife Emeline Goy. His name was changed to Charles Edward Hartley and they has 2 sons Harold and Herbert Hartley. Herbert Hartley-my great grandfather was born in 1900.
I'm hoping to get advice and information on here that will help and look forward to chatting to some of yous!
Claire, Northern Ireland
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Hi
1911 Censu Hull Yorkshire 61 West Dock Avenue Hull
Charles Edward Hartley Head Married 14 years age 44 Fishermans Outfitter born Bradford
Emmaline Gertrude Wife age 35 born Billingboro Lincolnshire
Herbert son age 11 Scholar born Hull
Violet Dau age 8 Scholar born Hull
Harold Son age 5 Scholar born Hull
Ethel Goy Sister in Law age 27 Single Domesticated Help born Billingboro Lincs
Rosa Goy Sister in Law age 16 Single born Billingboro Lincs
Marriage March qtr 1898 Hull Yorkshire 9d 304
Charles Edward Hartley
Emmelien Gertrude Goy
What you should do is order their marriage cert to get their fathers names & occupations and then work back from there to see if it leads you to an irish connection
Claire :)
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Wow that's brilliant I'll order that tomorrow!! Thanks so much!
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katie1630,
Definitely follow Claire's advice on the marriage cert, but here is something that might give you a bit to explore while waiting. There is a large Ancestry tree that purports to include this family (has Emmeline, but not sisters). States that her parents were Joseph Goy and Emma Glenn.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=linclinks&id=I059205
My problem is that Emmeline is NOT with this family in 1881, so take with a grain of salt.
Nick
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Hi.....
Emmeline can be found in 1881 with Glenn grandparents in Horbling.
RG11/3196 F 90 PAGE 10 AS Emilean G Goy age 5 so that ties the names together. Here baptism is extracted on IGI as daughter of Joseph & Emma.
I would go for the cert to check for the fathers name at marriage as there are a couple of Charles Hartley's in the Bradford area at the right time.
Tazzie
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More name to add to siblings of Emmeline are ....
Edith born 31 Jan 1833
Ethel born 20 Jan 1884
Annie born 27 March 1885
Elizabeth born 5 Nov 1886
May born 30 April 1888 all baptised on same day 24 June 1888.
Father Joseph mother Emma at Billingborough Lincs.
Tazzie
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Thank you so much everyone for your help- It's really appreciated!!
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Hi,
Here is your great grandfather in 1901, but no Charles, probably away at sea!
2 Princes Avenue, Hull (RG13/4506, Folio 189, Page 10)
Emmeline Gertrude Hartley, Wife, M, 24, Lincolnshire, Billingboro
Herbert " , Son, S, 1, Yorkshire, Hull
Elizabeth Goss, Sister, S, 14, No Occupation, Lincolnshire, Billingboro
Regards,
Kath
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Hi
This could be Emmeline using her middle name of Gertrude
1891 Billingborough RG12 2556 F 15 P 1
GOY Household 1 High Street
Joseph 42 Head Tailor b Timberland Lincs
Emma 39 Wife b Horbling Lincs
Gertrude 15 Daughter B Horbling Lincs
Edward 14 Son Scholar b Billingborough
Herbert 13 Son " " " "
Arthur 10 Son " " " "
Edith 8 Dau " " " "
Ethel 7 Dau " " " "
Elizabeth 4 Dau " "
May 2 Dau " "
Wilfred 1 Son " "
Claire :)
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Hi,
There is a Charles E Hartley born in Bradford (1866), living in Sculcoates on the 1891 census, which I can find on Find My Past (for which I do not have credits), but cannot find the entry on Ancestry ???
Kath
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Hi
the Charles visible on FindMyPast is shown on A*y as Charles E Harkey bn 1856 Bradford Occ Fisherman
Heres the REFs
RG12 3919 folio 5 Pg 3
Wendy
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Hi,
Well done Wendy, don't know how I missed that!
On the 1891 Charles is lodging with Alice Morriss, born in Bradford in 1868. There is a marriage in Hull in 1888 between a Alice S Hartley to Edwin Morris.
Have found her on the 1871 census as follows:
89 Joseph Street (RG10/4456, Folio 52, Page 28)
Alice Hartley, Head, Mar, 40, Nurse, Ireland
George " , Son, Unm, 9, Scholar, Bradford
Charles " 7 " "
Alice " , Daug, 4, Bradford
This Charles is slightly older than the entry on 1911, but in 1864 there is a birth in Bradford for a Charles E Hartley.
So possibly it was Charles father that came over from Ireland and changed his name! It will be interesting to see what the fathers name is on the marriage cert.
Kath
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Hi, thanks all for your help!! I had got the details of the Charles born in Bradford etc. and it was the difference in the birth dates that made me wonder! It was my grandfather sister who told my that he came over from Ireland.
I've ordered the marriage certificate and will post the detals on here when it arrives.
Thanks once again to everyone who's helped me!!
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See also the new reply re the mariage cert here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=424532.msg2894716
Carol
Moderator Comment: Duplicate post deleted at poster's request so this link will not work
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Hi, thanks to the great help I received on here I managed to get hold of a copy of my great grandfathers mariage certificate but I'm still drawing a blank!
It doesn't coincide with the birthdate I've got for him but only by 2 years, and i still can't find a birth certificate for him.
Also it's given me his fathers name as George Hartley, manufacturer but no other details. How could I use this to find out more about him?
The 1911 census that I have states my Charles Edward Hartley (my great grandfather) was 44 at the time and born in Bradford.
Really hoping that someone can shed some light on this for me.. thank you very much!!!
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Right then Claire ;D can you tell us exactly what the marriage cert says- names,addresses,ages and jobs,both for the bride and groom and their dad's.
Who were the witnesses ,and what church and date did it take place.
The more info we have the more chance of finding them on the censuses ;)
Carol
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1898 marriage solomnized at Hull in parish of Holy Trinity
January 19th 1898
Groom Charles Edward Hartley, 28, bachelor, master mariner, Residence- 37 Eton Street
Fathers name george Hartley profession Manufacturer
bride Emmelien Gertrude Goy, 21, no profession, Residence 37 Eton Street
Fathers Name Joseph Goy, Master Tailor.
Witnessed by Joseph Goy and Rebecca Mallett
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Hello Katie,
when you say you had got the details re Charles E born Bradford, is that on Free BMD, not a birth certificate?
If not, more money sadly, but I think it would be worth getting the certificates for Charles E and Alice S born Bradford to see re the father.
I have found an Alice Milligan married to George Hartley on Free BMD 1854 Bradford.
They are in 1861 census with some boys -George is a Police Inspector ad Alice is born Ireland but then can't find this family again :(
1861 RG9; Piece: 3329; Folio: 32; Page: 13
am therefore a bit doubtful - it's just a combination of names etc that ties them in.
However, Charles in 1891 (age transcribed wrongly-should be b 1866 not 1856) is linked with Alice (sister?) in 1871 so that seems to be the family.
Alice is here with mother Alice:
1881 RG11; Piece: 4441; Folio: 155; Page: 28
(mother Alice b Bradford).
So- having said all this - am not sure about anything ::)
Do you have Charles in 1881?
heywood
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Hi Heywood,
Many thanks for loking at this for me. I have a lead now for 1871 as
Rg no. RG10 pc 4456 F 52 pg 28
joseph St, Bradford
Hartley Alice head BY 1831 born Ireland
Hartley George son 1862 yorks
Hartley Charles son 1864 yorks
Hartley Alice daughter 1867 yorks.
But no sign of George Snr.
Nothing as yet for 1881.
I noticed that in 1881 Alice was declared a widow so I went through the deaths and I think I've found George died in 1874, though he's not mentioned on the 1871 census either.
I'm ordering his death certificate and marriage certificate and Charles birth certificate on Monday.
So hopefully i'll get some new leads from that.
I still can't find anything for Charles in 1881!!
I'll keep looking!
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Perhaps in 1881 he was at sea! I have tried all sorts of variations but no sign as you say.
I wish I could find evidence of the other family - they may have emigrated I suppose.
Good luck with the certificates.
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Thank you very much for trying, I really appreciate it. Hopefully the certs will shed a bit of light on things!!
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If Alice came over from Ireland how would I look up her details? Would there be a record of her coming over here? Is that too far fetched?!!
Thanks ;)
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Hello again,
just looking at that death of George H- 1874. I think he is married to a Zillah Hartley who also dies between 1871 and 1881 censuses so don't think he is your man.
heywood
I am fairly sure there are no records. Best bet would be to get that birth certificate and hopefully we would be able to connect it all. Then take it from there re Alice.
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Charles Edward Hartley born 21/4/1864
Father George Hartley relieving officer
Mother Alice Hartley nee Milligan
89 Joseph Street Bradford.
Marriage of George Hartley and Alice Milligan 18/1/1854
George a policeman, father name John Hartley profession Weaver
Alice a servant, fathers name Benjmin milligan prof. Farmer
Place of residence Horton
in the presence of William Holmes and Chistopher Gibson.
I can't find any solid evidence of them anywhere!!!
1871 I have Alice with her children George, Charles and Alice still living in Joseph Street stating that she was born in Ireland.
I'm wondering whether to look up deaths between 1867 (date of last childs birth) and 1871 to see if he comes up there? Would that achieve anything?
How do I find his birth certificate as the records I look at only go to 1837.
Would there be any way of searchin gher Alice coming over from Ireland?
Sorry to keep pestering you all!!!
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Hello Katie,
they were the family I found earlier :D
1861 RG9 Piece 3329 Folio 32 pg 13
(just copied this from earlier post so hope it works) If not just shout and I'll post.)
Ireland at that time is really difficult- you need a place to search for.
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Hi thanks for that, I'm struggling to find the link you put up about 1861?
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just ignore the RG9 bit and enter the other bits in the boxes on the search form.
Here they are:
136 Grafton Street Horton
George Hartley 30yrs Inspector of Police b Pateley Bridge Yorks
Alice Hartley 30 yrs b Ireland
William Henry Hartley 6 yrs b Bradford
John Milligan Hartley 2 yrs b Bradford
I did look for the boys at the time - it's a bit odd. It will give us something to do ;)
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So to add to the 1871 census that I have, there are 2 other brothers William and John, and John's middle name was his mothers maiden name..Heywood I could kiss you for your help!!
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yes but where are they? I remember at the time I found them and wondered - did George take them and go off/ emigrate :-\
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I have a William Henry Hartley who's details match the 1861 details living in 544 Manchester Street, Bradford in 1871 but I don't recognise any of the other family members so could it be that 2 William Henry Hartleys were born in Horton in 1860???
I can't find any details of John Milligan anywhere after 1861 nor of George Hartley snr.
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I think I saw him but there is another one - again checked last time.
They just seem to disappear. :(
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Looking for Milligans in Bradford:
1851 HO107; Piece: 2310; Folio: 407; Page: 41
Alice Milligan servant 22 yrs Nurse b Ireland
in the home of Henry D L Willis Incumbent of St John's Church Horton and family.
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The marriage certificate said she was a servant!
How do you look up birth certificates before 1837?
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technically there are none - baptisms is what you're after.
You would have great difficulty looking up anything for Alice.
There is a possible one for George on Family Search IGI
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
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http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
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I wonder if this is the family -John and Mary Hartley
1861 RG9; Piece: 3340; Folio: 102; Page: 22
same family
1851 HO107; Piece: 2311; Folio: 606; Page: 5
and with George
HO107; Piece 1351; Book: 4; Folio: 35; Page: 21
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http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true
:-\ :-\ :-\
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Her father was Benjamin Milligan....??
Though not sure about her mothers name...
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Irish records are quite difficulty and you would need more information re the place of birth.
I have looked at Griffiths Valuation -taken around 1850s -it is a bit of a census substitute although only has names of the householders - explained in better detail elsewhere. Can't see anything for Benjamin.
http://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/gv_start.php
Irish BMD didn't start until 1860s for most people so no luck there either.
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Not sure if it came up with my search results then? I put in Alice milligan and her fathers name etc and it came up with Seaforde, Co. Down and her DOB.
I came up with HO107 2279 pg 17 for George Hartley from Pately Bridge in 1851. just going to print out all the papers you've posted for me to find and I'll go through tomorrow evening!!!
Thank you so much for your help it really is appreciated x
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Is George the one in Adders...- yes I think it's him.
No Alice didn't come up but how good :) I had called myself to look- think I may have used a later year.
That's great. Must go to bed now.
goodnight :)