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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: pajero1991 on Tuesday 15 September 09 15:01 BST (UK)
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Hi to All, Has anyone any info on a murder commited in the Blackwall Tunnel in the early 1900,s say 1915 to 1930 ish, sorry to a bit vague but am having trouble trying to find any info on the matter. She was a lady named Bella Dixon from Deptford, any info at all would be a big help...thanks
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Freebmd is fairly complete for that period. Can you spot her on there?
Pauline
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Hi and welcome :)
Do you know any more about Bella - e.g. how old she would have been, whether married etc? How do you know about the murder?
Anna
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Pauline & Anna, thanks for your quick reply, sorry I cant give any more info , I think she was married but not too sure, Heard of her demise thro a recent aquired relative, she doesnt know any more than me. She was born in Wolverhampton & moved with her family prior to 1901 as she shows up in the cencus as living in Deptford. she was 14 years old in 1901. Dixon was her maiden name. Unfortunatly Police records dont go back 100 years so I am told.
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I see. On that basis it seems that in fact she was formally Isabella Dixon b Bilston Staffs (birth reg Jun qtr 1886 Wolverhampton 6b 697).
1891: With parents James & Elizabeth in Bilston (as Isabella): RG12/2244/28/6
1901: With parents James & Elizabeth in Deptford (as Bella): RG13/529/36/64
1911: With parents James & Lizzie in Greenwich RD (as Isabella) per free index search.
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Hi again Anna, Where would Greenwich Rd be? I have,nt been on the 1911 census yet, but in 1911 she would have been 24 years old. I am still waiting for my relation to come back with some more info. I would imagine that the murder would have made national news at that time.. I have tried to get into the Blackwall archives but no success.....John
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Hi again Anna, Where would Greenwich Rd be? I have,nt been on the 1911 census yet, but in 1911 she would have been 24 years old. I am still waiting for my relation to come back with some more info. I would imagine that the murder would have made national news at that time.. I have tried to get into the Blackwall archives but no success.....John
By Greenwich RD I mean Greenwich Registration District (which included Deptford). You won't be able to find out the full details for 1911 without paying for a transcript or image on www.1911census.co.uk.
Anna
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Isabella may have married later in 1911:
(From FreeBMD)
Marriages Dec qtr 1911
BALLARD John G
DIXON Isabella
EYRES William
WOODHOUSE Julia S
all with reference Greenwich 1d 1868
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I know that the family lived no 8 Liardett St Deptford, when they moved down from Bilston, prior to 1901..after 1911 I think that it is going to be fairly hard to trace as I dont have her married name & the BMD isnt bringing anything up.....If I only knew the year of her death!!....
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I know that the family lived no 8 Liardett St Deptford, when they moved down from Bilston, prior to 1901..after 1911 I think that it is going to be fairly hard to trace as I dont have her married name & the BMD isnt bringing anything up.....If I only knew the year of her death!!....
You DO know:
Her forename
Her year of birth
Where she died
You can search freebmd on that basis, and compare Candidate spouse surnames
Pauline
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Following on from the 1911 marriage reference I cited earlier, the details are as follows:
Parish Church of St James, Hatcham
Marriage solemnized on 12 November 1911
John George BALLARD 22 Bachelor Cocoa-grinder of 17 Clifton Hill, father John BALLARD Engineer (retired)
Isabella DIXON 22 Spinster of 20 Alexandra St, father James DIXON, blacksmith
Witnesses:
Bernard DIXON
Hilda STIMSON
James DIXON
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Wow, Well done girls, I think we have found her, looks like she married J G Ballard, the rest fits ...her br
other Bernard & her father James were witness,s....looks like she moved out to Alexandra St..Now where is Hatcham?
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Hatcham= part of Deptford - see e.g. http://www.southwark.anglican.org/parishes/118p
FreeBMD suggests that the Ballard/Dixon couple may have had four children registered in the St Olave/Bermondsey district 1912-1925. I won't post given names as they are too recent, but you will be able to find them yourself there by searching for Ballard births with mother's maiden name Dixon.
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Many , many thanks for your help, I would have been searching for days, I now think I have the info I needed. will go to BMD & take it from there.....thanks again John
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Hello Anna, Its me again , sorry to be a pain , its just that I cannot seem to find the death record of Bella Ballard, ive tried on FreeBMD, also on Ancestry, just keeps coming up , no records found, Ive tried from 1926 right thro to 1960...no luck at all, ..am I doing something wrong? Help John
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Maybe she wasn't murdered? (It's a family legend at the moment isn't it?)
Could it have been another person from that branch of the family?
Maybe she was widowed, re-married and then died?
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Hi Pauline thanks for your quick reply, my recently found relative who supplied the info, said that she was told that Bella was murdered in the B/wall tunnel, I have no reason to disbelieve her, any way she should show up in the records. I dont know if she remarried, I cant ask my relation , she is on holiday @ the moment....
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Hello Anna, Its me again , sorry to be a pain , its just that I cannot seem to find the death record of Bella Ballard, ive tried on FreeBMD, also on Ancestry, just keeps coming up , no records found, Ive tried from 1926 right thro to 1960...no luck at all, ..am I doing something wrong? Help John
When you say you've tried Ancestry, do you mean you've searched through the GRO page images quarter-by-quarter for the period after the FreeBMD transcriptions tail off (i.e. about the 1930s - see FreeBMD itself for current coverage details)?
I'm afraid that is what is required, as Ancestry has not yet indexed the later years.
Anna
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I'm not saying she's lying; just that she may have been mis-informed.
Why don't you try the "Times" archive (ppv) to try and find something concrete.
http://archive.timesonline.co.uk/tol/searchOnDay.arc
Pauline
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Here, at least, is a death of an Isabella of the right age:
Death Mar qtr 1952
Isabella BALLARD aged 65
Lambeth 5c 1337
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Can't see anything in the Times online archive. I looked through 1951 and 52 no mention of either Isabella Ballard or a murder in the Blackwall Tunnel.
Carolyn
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Blackwall tunnel is vehicles-only, barring the service tunnel. Could there be confusion there too?
The foot tunnel(s) nearby seem a more likely venue (Woolwich & Greenwich)
Pauline
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Hi
I thought you had established Isabella Ballard married John George Dixon in 1911 and therefore her surname would be Dixon not Ballard?
Why the search for Isabella Ballard deaths?
Regards
Valda
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Hi
I thought you had established Isabella Ballard married John George Dixon in 1911 and therefore her surname would be Dixon not Ballard?
Why the search for Isabella Ballard deaths?
Regards
Valda
The seach for Isabella BALLARD deaths arises because she was born DIXON and married Mr BALLARD.
Anna
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Blackwall tunnel is vehicles-only, barring the service tunnel. Could there be confusion there too?
The foot tunnel(s) nearby seem a more likely venue (Woolwich & Greenwich)
I had that thought too.
One possible explanation is that a fatal accident (perhaps vehicular) in Blackwall Tunnel became "she was killed" which in turn became "she was murdered" in family folklore.
If the Lambeth death is hers it would suggest she didn't die in the tunnel (the southern part of which is in Greenwich) but it is consistent with a death in (e.g.) St Thomas' Hospital after some incident, accidental or criminal. Pure speculation, of course...
Anna
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Hi
Sorry had lost the plot - a long day yesterday. St Thomas' Hospital is at Westminster Bridge Road so over 5 miles away from the Blackwall Tunnel with the curve in the river Thames (see Google maps). The foot tunnel is slightly closer - Cutty Sark Gardens, but wouldn't Lewisham Hospital be a lot closer - a couple of miles if the incident occurred south of the river? If at the north end of either tunnel you would expect an ambulance to travel to a hospital directly north of the Thames? St Thomas' would be even further away if that was the case.
The death certificate would tell you one way or the other and there aren't going to be many Isabella Ballard deaths of the right age occurring in south London. Big difference though between 1915-1930ish and 1952 which is well within living memory.
Regards
Valda
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Hi
Sorry had lost the plot - a long day yesterday. St Thomas' Hospital is at Westminster Bridge Road so over 5 miles away from the Blackwall Tunnel with the curve in the river Thames (see Google maps). The foot tunnel is slightly closer - Cutty Sark Gardens, but wouldn't Lewisham Hospital be a lot closer - a couple of miles if the incident occurred south of the river? If at the north end of either tunnel you would expect an ambulance to travel to a hospital directly north of the Thames? St Thomas' would be even further away if that was the case.
All true! It would be interesting to find out what's on that death certificate.
Anna :)
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Hi to all, Just came online to see if I had a reply!! I was amazed, my havent you all been busy...I really must thank you all again, I will now be sending for the death cert. Reading all your comments, its like having a novel all of your own. I am now waiting for my relation to come back off her hols. Im pretty sure that you have uncovered some facts that she doesnt know about. I dont think we will ever find out if she was really murdered, as you say we can have our own family legend, many thanks once again, it will all make a great talking point down at the local...
John
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Hi
If she was mudered then her death certificate would indicate it through an inquest and verdict such as unlawful killing. Any death that is not by natural causes requires an inquest before a death certificate can be issued.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_killing
The death certificate will clearly indicate whether she was mudered or not.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda, Im sure that you are right, as I said earlier I will send for the death cert & that will clearly show what we need , Hopefully!! I now think that its time to put this topic to bed, do you agree? Thank you for your help & comments, I have learnt quite a bit myself.....John
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Hi John
I'm sure you are right, but I think all the contributors to the thread would be interested to hear the details of the death certificate when you receive it.
Regards
Valda
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I would like to thank all for the information reagarding the murder in blackwell tunnel it was a great aunt of mine i was told by my nan that she had been murdered and all her bag and items of jewellery had been taken how true this is i dont know thanks again for all your help
christine
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Hi to All, Here we are again, sorry for the very long absence, but we now have a conclusion. have now got a copy of the death cert. It seems that Isabella was attacked and had her belongings stolen, (family records ). She was taken to Kings College Hospital, Lambeth. T he death cert states that she died of Broncial Pneumonia, Acute Cerebral Contusion asssociated with Fractured Skull associated with......( cant read the next bit, not a very good copy!) The coroner is a Henry Wigate of the Coroners Court London, inquest dated 28th Jan 1952.
Sorry again for the delay, at least it can now be put to rest..Thanks once again . John
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Isabella was my great grandmother, my father had never spoken about his grandmothers demise so this was an amazing discovery for me to find out that she had been murdered.
I had come to a full stop when I got to John G Ballard on my family tree and so decided to try his wife Isabella instead, which lead me here.
Thank you to all you clever sleuths out there for your help.
Vince