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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: moh on Tuesday 15 September 09 14:52 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have access to the BMD for Dublin (do not know which area) please? I am looking for the marriage of Henry Dempsey & Mary? possibly between 1860 & 1869; birth of Felix Dempsey 1869 and death of Henry Dempsey after 1869.
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An Irish Civil BMD index is available on familysearch at :
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=2;t=searchable;c=1408347
full BMD registration started in 1864, Non-Catholic marriages were registered from 1845.
you can order certs from the GRO (www.groireland.ie) using the index details.
Shane
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Thank you - I found a birth for Felix Dempsey in Dublin North but the date is 1869 not 1867
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that's strange... I had a search and the one I see is in 1865?
Name: Felix Dempsey
Registration district: Dublin North
year: 1865
Volume: 12 / Page: 576
year of birth calculated based on a census age or age at death is not always accurate.. so it's possible that is the correct register entry, as he's the only Felix Dempsey listed around that time
Shane
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Very strange - I have just looked again and you are right I must have been dreaming!! (Senior moment) However I have just found his death cert. on FreeBMD and he died in 1933 age 63 so it date of birth 1869 sounds OK. The 1891 census gives the DOB as 1865. I have ordered the cert. but it will only give details of his wife which I already know. I will order the birth cert. now. Thankyou What areas are North Dublin please?
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the Dublin North registration district basically covers the northern part of the city i.e. north of the river Liffey, with some parts of the surrounding county.
There's a map of the registration districts available at this link : http://www.rootschat.com/links/05d7/
Shane
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Just had a look at the GRO site but cannot see where to put Vol. page details etc. Also obviously I only know year not day or month - am I looking at the right place - order certificates?
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Just had a look at the GRO site but cannot see where to put Vol. page details etc. Also obviously I only know year not day or month - am I looking at the right place - order certificates?
their order form is not really designed with these familysearch index references in mind - just fill in the details where ever you can on the form, or attach them on a separate page. The only details they need from the index are the name, record type (e.g. birth) year / quarter (early record dont need year), registration district, volume & page. The other details are LDS/familysearch search references and are not required. The RSI number metioned on the form does not apply for research certs - it's a tax reference, required for legal certs.
Shane
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OK thanks - I will give it a whirl.
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Shane - just seen your offer of look-ups in the Thomson directories - is there anything for a Henry Dempsey or a Michael Dempsey - both master carpenters somewhere in Dublin.
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There's part of the 1862 Thom's directory available online on the Library Ireland website at : http://www.libraryireland.com/Dublin-Street-Directory-1862/Home.php
I dont see any Dempsey Carpenters , but there is a John Dempsey, at 4 Peter Street - builder and timber yard - link : http://www.rootschat.com/links/0746/
will have a look in the 1863 and 1848 Thom's directories this evening..
Shane
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It looks like neither Henry or Michael were running their own business (possibly employed by someone else), as they don't seem to be listed in the trade index in either directory.
Thom's 1863 - Carpenters & Builders section
John Dempsey, 39 Bride st - (tenements - no further details)
John Dempsey, 4 Peter st - builder & timber yard
No Dempsey Carpenters listed in Thom's 1848 or 1877
Sometimes people are not listed in the trade index but are included in the street listing - but it's not practical to search this by name. If you find an address on cert etc post the details and I'll have a look by address and see there there is anything.
Shane
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IGI lists Felix DEMPSEY born 25 July 1865 Dublin, Co. Dublin, son of Michael Dempsey and Maria Judge- page 576 in birth register so this is the one Shane found earlier-
Name: Felix Dempsey
Registration district: Dublin North
year: 1865
Volume: 12 / Page: 576
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This just gets more weird - in the 1891 census for Colne, Lancashire, England there is a list of Mary Dempsey, widow, Felix Dempsey, son (b1869) and Mary Dempsey daughter b. 1865. living 55 Burnley Road, he is a house painter. On his marriage cert. in 1899 he gives his age as 31, Master painter, father Henry Dempsey, Cabinet maker.
In 1901 census Felix and his wife live Gill Street, Colne, living at 264 Burnley Road are Mary Dempsey, widow, her daughter Mary Ann Burke & her husband John Burke with their children. I found a death cert. for Mary Dempsey in 1911 reg. Burnley (REg office for Colne too) at 264 Burnley Road, Colne, widow of Michael Dempsey Cabinet maker (master). Informant her son J. Dempsey. There is a Joseph Dempsey and his wife Alice living in Colne. All the Dempseys are born, Dublin, Ireland ??? ???
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I now have the marriage cert. of Mary Ann Dempsey to John Burke giving her father as Henry, her brother Felix was a witness. When Mary Dempsey died her address was the same one she lived at in 1901 - the only problem seems to be on her death cert. giving her husband as Michael not Henry. I have not received Felix's birth cert. from Ireland yet.
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Moh
Ihave3 references to Dempsey @ Bride & Peter Streets in 1860s in the Irish Times newspaper but they appear to relate to building businesses. If these are of interest just ask for them.
Regards Quaxer
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On the marriage certs. it says Cabinet maker (master)
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The birth cert. has just arrived - Felix Dempsey b. 25th July 1865 at 33 Liffey Street, Dublin - father Michael, cabinet maker, mother Mary nee Judge.
If this is the only Felix born between 1865 & 1870 who is Henry he put on his marriage cert. as his father?
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Confusing. This birth obviously does not match the marriage cert you received earlier.
One possibility I can think of, Felix may not have been named on his birth cert. If you search for Male Dempsey you will find 1 birth in the Dublin area 1860-1869. (The 1865 Felix may have been a cousin?).
Best wishes in sorting it out.
Dara.
* Typos corrected.
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1865 & 1869 not '95 '99
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I have received the marriage cert. for Joseph Dempsey b. 1863 Dublin - he too lists Henry Dempsey as his father. This means Joseph, Mary Ann & Felix were all the children of Henry Dempsey & Mary. So who is the Michael Mary's son Joseph put on his mother's death cert.??? He too was a cabinet maker - wonder if she married Michael after Henry died, then he died too?? Wonder if he is the father of the Felix born 1865?? Wonder if that Felix died?? - A lot of wondering going on!! ???
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I am no nearer with my Dempsey research - the only Felix recorded is in 1865 at 33 Liffey Street, Dublin N. to Michael Dempsey & Mary Judge - yet Felix's marriage & death certs. give his DOB as 1869.
His marriage gives his father as Henry Dempsey, Cabinet Maker, decd. - as do the marriages of his siblings, Joseph (1863) & Mary Ann (1867). Yet his mother's death cert. gives her as widow of Michael. ???
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It's not at all uncommon for people's ages to vary between one record and the next (even in early 1900s many people wouldn't have known their exact date of birth) and it's just as common for details on a death certificate to be incorrect.
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Hi There
I'm not sure if you have these already !
Marriage of Michael Dempsey & Mary Judge
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/8a20990082192
Baptism of daughter Bridget
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/be8c470381769
Baptism of son Patrick
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/7668b50105735
Baptism of son Felix
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/83cc7f0189045
Baptism of son Michael
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a9b28c0191321
Baptism of daughter Mary Anne
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/6351860108741
Tara
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Here is a Henry / Mary Dempsey scenario !
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/3ea4840064491
Tara
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Bridget born 1859 seems to be buried Glasnevin in 1861 with address of Liffey St
Then you have
Bridget Dempsey born 11 Sep 1872 same parents possibly buried Glasnevin 1873 age 8 months
Family Search is not available for links for me at the moment keeps saying try later.
tried later
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FG8T-CL3
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This would appear to be Henry the Carpenter on the 1901 Census
His first wife Mary died and remarried to Eliza in 1872.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Arran_Quay/Phibsboro_Road/1336422/
Tara
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There appears TO ME to be much more data making Felix's father to be Michael Dempsey.
It's possible that Michael was baptised Michael Henry Dempsey or vice versa and hence this is where the confusion is lying.
Tara
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Thoms of 1868 show a Michael Dempsey, furniture broker, at Lower Liffey Street.
This is the same address as the baptism for Felix Dempsey in 1865.
Tara
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I wonder is their a relationship here seen the name Maria Owens on one of the other baptisms
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/7b60370187443
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So,
We have a Felix Dempsey whom was born to a Michael Dempsey and Mary Judge.
Michael Dempsey was the son of a Christopher Dempsey.
Here is Christopher's will from 1891 where he leaves his money to his son Michael.
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014905/005014905_00099.pdf
Which makes THIS Michael still alive and in Dublin in 1891.
So, this is a CRUCIAL point IF you are 100% sure that YOUR Mary Dempsey ie Felix's Mum was in England by 1891 that means Felix CAN NOT be the son of Michael Dempsey and Mary Judge.
Tara
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Glasnevin shows Christophers death 1887 age 62 from 82 Capel St
also shows Bridget Dempsey 1891 age 65 same address
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http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/2688020058112
A daughter of Christopher and Bridie
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possible marriage for them
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/90e35c0092006
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note the priest has recorded all the mothers maiden names properly
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/7b60370187443
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Johnny Eagles Tattoo shop 82 Capel St
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.350902,-6.269857,3a,75y,90h,88.16t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1skhWuVLome2DRsLq5odNzLw!2e0
Swing the camera to your left and Michael Garry electrical supplies is 58 and 59 Bolton St
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Hi Dathai
While 'tis 'sterling work' that you are doing I think the issue still needs to be resolved as to who exactly were Felix's parents.
Going on the will of Christopher Dempsey ~ Felix IS NOT the son of Michael Dempsey & Mary Kenna.
SO, I think that family need to be 'parked' for a while 'til a suitable Henry / Mary scenario comes up.
MOH please bear in mind that Felix could have been from outside of Dublin City where there are much fewer records to access online.
Felix was born in the infancy of our civil registration so it would appear that his birth wasn't registered ~ many at this time weren't.
It was nearly the 1900's before it became common practice.
Tara
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Thankyou - yes I have the Michael/Mary Judge details, and in that family in 1816 was another Felix Dempsey. My main problem is that Joseph, Mary Ann & Felix all give Henry as their father on their marriage certificates - yet when Joseph registered his mother's death the certificate says widow of Michael Dempsey. Only those 3 children ended up living in Colne, Lancashire, England with their Mother Mary. They appear in 1881 when Mary & Joseph live together, Mary Ann is in service but no sign Felix. In 1891 Mary, Mary Ann & Felix live together. Looks like a problem I cannot solve..!!
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Mary gives County Meath as her birth place on one census & Cavan on another - the children all quote Dublin.
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Hi MOH
So, the ONLY record that says MICHAEL is the death cert of Mary.
It could have been a mistranscription, misheard.
There DO appear to be much more records with Henry on them.
I'm afraid though that this still doesn't give us the leads that we need.
BTW Did you ever notice if the family were in England as early as the 1871 Census ?
Did you search for a Henry Dempsey death in England ?
Tara
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No trace 1871 - just re-checked and no other Dempsey's in Colne in 1881. Also no death for a Henry - I am puzzled why they came to Colne if no other family there.
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Bearing in mind that you don't YET know Mary's maiden name; SHE could have had family there.
BUT that's ALWAYS the million dollar question ~ why did our folks move from one spot to the other ~ 99% of the time it was simply for work.
Tara
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A small connection between the HENRY DEMPSEY / MARY KENNA marriage that Tara posted earlier and the Christopher Dempsey extended family.
The marriage here
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/3ea4840064491 giving Henry's father as ISAAC DEMPSEY of 47 Mabott St. A search on IG for Isaac Dempsey gives the 1836 birth of HENRY listing one sponsor as 'MARIA ? BURGESS' (looking at the photo of the record this could easily be Maria Burgoyne)
Now, as Dathai noticed earlier the name OWENS crops up a lot on the other records linked to so far - namely a Thomas OWENS and Maria BURGOYNE at the marriage of Christopher and Bridget of Capel St.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/90e35c0092006
and the birth of their son Michael Felix
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/7b60370187443
Also when Thomas Owens and Maria Burgoyne marry, one of their witnesses is Isaac Dempsey.
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/899bfe0092125
So I am thinking that Christopher (b.1825) and Henry (b. 1836) could be brothers or more likely cousins ?
Only children I see to Henry and Mary are
Ellen 1870 and Isaac 1867.
Doesn't help with the original query but might be worth getting either Ellen or Isac's birth cert to find out the occupation of this Henry.
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I can't find a possible death for Henry in Dublin.
I keep going back to the Henry on the 1901 Census that I posted early. Crazy thought but COULD this be our chap and Mary left him ?
RARE I know.
These Dempseys are certainly intertwined.
Tara
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Could ISAAC 1867 be Felix and he changed his name ?
Was a death found for this Isaac ?
Tara
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Since the ONLY record for the father of Felix, Joseph & Mary Ann being called Michael is his widow's death certificate (son Joseph the informant?) I tend to thing he either gave the wrong name or it was written down incorrectly.
What seems to be likely-
Henry Dempsey, cabinetmaker, m. Mary (c1836 Ire.-9 Oct.1911)
note: 1911 census gives Mary's birthplace as Meath https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X4ML-V3F
1. Joseph Dempsey (c1863 Dublin), painter, m. Alice
2. Mary Ann Dempsey (c1865 Dublin) m. John Burke.
note: one of Mary Ann's sons called John Henry
3. Felix Dempsey (c1868 Dublin-1933), painter, m.(1899) Mary Ann Turner
~ Mary Dempsey is a widow by 1881 census and Henry Dempsey most likely died in Ireland or England but I cannot find a death indexed for either country.
~ Although Felix Dempsey is supposed to be born in Dublin c1868 (after the start of registration) it's still possible that he, and his siblings, were all born before 1864 and therefore are not showing up in the birth index. Even though English census records indicate 'Dublin' the family might have lived in County Dublin or even Meath or Cavan (where mother Mary might have been from). Most church records are not online and not all records even survive.
~ It's possible that Henry died in Ireland before 1864 or certainly before compulsory registration became enforced in 1870.
~ earlier this evening I had discounted the Henry in 1901, Isaac, etc. but was in the middle of re-checking a few bits to see if Henry Dempsey, cabinetmaker could be found in Dublin. Will post more when I can
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The Henry/Maria wedding was 1866 - Joseph was born in 1863. Mary died 1911 (as widow of Michael!!) so I do not think the Henry 1901 will be the one.
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Thanks everyone for your help. Would there be any christening records?
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There could be church records showing baptisms but not all are online so you'd need to have an idea of location to see what churches/records are available. Many of the links we've posted here are on the Irish Genealogy site and they do add new records from time to time so just keep checking.
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OK - thankyou