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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: ruth elliott on Saturday 12 September 09 19:29 BST (UK)
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Information wanted on the Oliver family in Mayfield/Heathfield, Sussex.
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Hi Ruth
First of all welcome to Rootschat and especially the Sussex Boards = one of the best.
I cant help you directly with your Oliver family in the time period that you require (1806) but I do have transcripts of the Heathfield Registers from 1613 to 1753
Here are the Oliver Baptisms
1661 23 Feb Jane the daughter of Joseph Oliver
1665 30 Apr William the son of Jos Oliver
1669 4 July Nicholas the son of Joseph Oliver (BT says by Mary his wife)
1671 12 Mch John the son of Joseph Oliver by Mary his wife
1676 4 June Thomas the son of Joseph Oliver by Mary his wife
1696 28 May Elizabeth the daughter of William Oliver by Elizabeth his wife
1698 18 Sep Josias the son of John Oliver (BT by Jone his wife)
1698 11 Dec Thomas the son of William Oliver?
1700 27 Feb John the son of John Oliver by Ann his wife
1703 2 Apr Ann the daughter of John and Ann Oliver
1703 15 Dec William the son of William and Elizabeth Oliver
1727 17 Feb Joseph the son of Joseph and Mary Oliver
1730 1 July Mary the daughter of Joseph and Mary Oliver
1731 10 Oct Thomas the son of Joseph and Mary Oliver
1735 25 Dec John the son of Joseph Oliver by Mary his wife
1740 14 Aug David the son of Joseph Oliver by Mary his wife
Hope they help your research
Chris in 1066
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Ruth
Here are the marriages at Heathfied during the same time period 1613 to 1753
1628 27 Nov John Oliver and Mercie Cossam
1696 13 Oct John Oliver and Ann Smith
Chris in 1066
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Thank you Chris.
My problem is that the 1600s is too early for me to be able to make a connection with my John Oliver born 1809.
Are there any Church records of Baptisms and Marriages in the 1770-1820 period at Heathfield OR Mayfield.
Many many thanks for reading and offering help.
Annette
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Hi
According to my copy of Phillimore Mayfield is covered by the IGI at that time but Heathfield is not. That means looking at the original registers - either at the record office, the Society of Genealogists in London may have them, or getting the film to search at your nearest LDS family history centre.
Andrea
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Thank you so much Andrea. I will follow both those leads.
Annette
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Hi Annette
I have checked the Mayfield PRs and there are no Oliver children being baptised at the right time. Unfortunately the source I use does not have coverage of Heathfield at that time but there were a lot of Olivers in Heathfield at that point.
I have Olivers in Warbleton at that point who originated from Heathfield and before that Brede and Sedlescombe.
Do you have census records for John which should show his place of birth? It would be interesting to see if he links in with the Olivers I have.
Kerry
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Thank you Kerry so much for trying to help find John Oliver.
I have all the census records for him, and the 1851 says 'Where born... Mayfield'.
If his wife was the one who gave the information she may have been 'out' by a village or two!
If there are lots of Olivers in Heathfield at that time it is worth considering.
One other pointer is that one of his daughters was b. in Heathfield, which I have thought may have been the family going there to family for the child's birth.
We have his death record - Feb 1884- aged 75years, which makes his birth year 1809.
Thanks again,
Annette
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Hi Annette
I had a look at the census records and they do all consistently say Mayfield, don't they?
I then realised this morning I have a disc of Mayfield parish registers to 1812 so I had a look and found a marriage
John Oliver (bachelor) and Ann Jenner (spinster) on 26 April 1796 by banns at Mayfield
witnesses - William Richardson and John Elderidge
and in the baptisms there a small number of children baptised to them, most actually under the name Olive but sadly no John.
when and where did he marry? Would this give any clues?
Kerry
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Dear Kerry,
Thank you so much for your brilliant help!
This is a real step forward!
I was sure his mother's name must be Ann as he names his second daughter Ann, and that is often how it is done.
So this is almost certainly his parent's m record.
John himself m. Henrietta at St Paul's C of E Deptford, Kent in August 1834.
On the 1841 Census there is a James Oliver aged 15 living with John and Henrietta and their 3 children in Bromley Kent.
I have often thought that if I could find this James' birth record it might lead to John's, as they are probably brothers, but James is a good few years younger than John.
My grandfather told me that our Oliver family was from the Scilly Isles where they had the dubious history, along with other, of luring ships on to the rocks by giving them false lighting signals, so they could collect the stuff from the wrecks!
My grandfather was very upset by this information as a child and told my mother about it.
But I do not know in which generation they left Scilly.
I have not been able to identify them there, although there are Olivers on the Islands, and they do use the name John.
I have only checked out births in the 1809 time span, but 'my' John Oliver seems to have had a father called John also if I can make this assumption, so I could check out that generation also.
Thank you again for your time.
Best wishes,
Annette
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Dear Kerry,
PS
Is it possible for you to email me copies of the marriage record of John and Ann and the birth records of their children?
It would be fantastic to have them.
Yours,
Annette
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Hi Annette
Unfortunately the CD I have simply has a typed list of all baptisms and marriages not the originals entries which would be on microfiche at ESRO.
I'm intrigued to see whether there is any link between the Mayfield Olivers and the Heathfield Olivers so when I'm a little less busy at the end of the week I shall see what more I can find, ie John senior's baptism and any more children including a James born about 1820 ish.
Kerry :)
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Hi Kerry,
What is the ERSO, and could I see it if I go to the Genealogical Soc HQ?
Also, I suppose if my Oliver family comes from Scilly, the original Oliver to turn up in Sussex might be the one who left the Scilly Isles.
So is it at all clear who is the 'first' Oliver recorded in Mayfield/Heathfield?
Annette
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Hi Annette
ESRO - East Sussex Record Offices.
I'm not sure who was the first Oliver in Mayfield or Heathfield, the line I have turned up in Heathfield in the middle/late 1600s, I have traced my line back to Sedlescombe in the early 1500s. The Mayfield line might be totally unconnected from the Heathfield line, it is a common surname.
Kerry
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Hi Annette
After searching what is available currently on the SFHG baptism database and also my Mayfield disc the most likely possibility for John's baptism is the following:
John Olive baptised on 27 June 1763 to Robert and Hannah Olive at Mayfield
(he does marry quite late on though at 33!)
Robert Olive married Hannah Caley on 8 July 1753 at Mayfield, both of this parish and by licence
Robert Olive was buried at Mayfield in 1807 at age of 86
therefore it would seem his most likely baptism
Robert Olive baptised on 7 March 1721 at Buxted to William and Mary Olive
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
Thank you so much for searching for me, unfortunately we have lots of confirmation as to his birth date in 1809, so this probably is not it.
Many thanks anyway.
It is good to establish that there is a tribe of Olivers in Mayfield.
Best wishes,
Annette
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Hi Annette
This is John Oliver who married Ann Jenner in 1796, possible parents of John Oliver born 1809 ;D ;)
Kerry
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I see.
I will think about it.
Many thanks,
Annette
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Hi Kerry,
One thing, in reference to your email to me on 21st September, you say there are a number of children born to John Oliver and Ann Jenner - could you give me their names and birth dates if you still have them to hand.
Many thanks,
Annette
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Hi Annette
They are as follows:
All at Mayfield and to John and Ann
23 April 1797 Mary Ann, daughter
12 October 1800 Philly, daughter
22 February 1802 Ann, daughter, now this one is baptised to John and Elizabeth but there is no John and Elizabeth, so was it a mistake??
25 December 1804 Sarah, daughter
and that is all. Bearing in mind this couple married in 1796 it seems odd that they only had 3 daughters, did they move somewhere else maybe for later children, or were they simply baptised elsewhere??
Kerry
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Scrub that Ann, it is a different family
John Olive married Elizabeth Waters at Mayfield on 2 July 1799 (SMI) and several children baptised on Ancestry but most baptised as teenagers and sadly still no John.
Kerry
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Thanks for doing all you have done.
Maybe they moved to Heathfield.
Best wishes,
Annette
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Hi Kerry,
Thanks for all your help to date.
I think I have to extend my search for the b. of John Oliver to adjacent Parishes, so I am making another request for searches in Framfield and Waldron.
Best wishes,
Annette
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Hi Kerry,
You were kindly helping me a short while ago with my search for John Oliver's birth in/around Mayfield in 1809.
We drew a blank, but I said I would think about the things we had turned up.
I have now done so, and realise that the message you sent to me on the 19th September may hold some interest.
I mentioned at the outset that my family story is that our Olivers had originally come from the Scilly Isles.
I had not considered that this could have been some centuries ago!
I have often thought that it would be relatively easy for a competent 'sailor' in a boat to make his way along the South coast of England from the Scilly Isles, and settle somewhere where work was on offer.
Having reread your emails I can see that this could have happened with what you call the 'Warbleton' Olivers, who you say 'originated from Heathfield, and before that Brede and Sedlescombe.'
I would be most grateful if you could check if there was a John Oliver born in Warbleton in 1809.
Also, could you tell me where the Parish Records for Sussex are held so when time permits I can look at them.
Many thanks
and Best Wishes,
Annette
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Hi Annette
Unfortunately no John Oliver born 1809 in Warbleton.
I would love to know where the Olivers came from before they appeared in Sedlescombe in the 1500s. I did wonder whether as in the 1500s they seemed to be spelt Olyver and there was a Gervais on the muster rolls whether they came from France.
East Sussex Parish records are held at the Lewes Record Office http://www.eastsussex.gov.uk/leisureandtourism/localandfamilyhistory/esro/default.htm
If it is difficult to get there if you join the Sussex Family History Group, http://www.sfhg.org.uk/ for the fee of £11 you get online access to their growing database of parish records. Makes the fee well worth in my opinion.
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
There must be a link between the Olivers you mention and mine.
My grandfather told me about his family the last time I saw him.
He must have known that there would not be another chance, and told me things about his father's family which he had never told my mother.
I realised later they were family secrets.
His father had been the illegitimate son of a moneyed squire in the Home Counties, and it obviously hurt him that they had had to live a bit of a cloak and dagger existence, which finally made him leave the UK and settle in Australia.
By then, as one of life's twists, I was living in the UK married to an Englishman, and he was in his 80s in Aus.
My mother had never been interested in her family's history, and he had carefully hidden it from her.
My questions made him open up.
He told me about his father's family, and said that 'his mother's family were from the Scilly Isles.' (The Olivers)
As a child he was told that people there used to be 'wreckers', deliberately giving false signals to passing ships to lure them on to the rocks so the islanders could collect the salvage from the ship wrecks.
This had upset him dreadfully as a child.
I had always assumed that the family had left Scilly in the 1800s, but it could have been much earlier, as there were no dates given.
This is fascinating!
You are the very person I needed to speak to.
Scilly has always been a melting pot for French and English people as it is so close to both, so the French name adds some extra proof!
One of my John Oliver's children, Elizabeth, was said, on the 1861 Census, to have been born at Heathfield, Sussex.
Her birth record is a bit vague; between 1842/1843.
I have tried to find her birth record on line without success.
In fact, of his 12 children, I can only find definite birth records for 4 of them, and possible records for 3 more.
There is a 'Female Oliver' b. at Ticehurst in March 1842, which is a long shot for Elizabeth.
If she was a sickly baby they may not have named her.
I have sent for this record on the off chance.
I have found a John And Ann Oliver at 'Mugreed' farm, Heathfield on the 1861 Census, and am fairly sure this could be 'my John's ' parents.
In the 1871 Census Ann is dead and John is still living at 'Mugreed fam' with his daughter, Mary, b. Mayfield 1801.
I am convinced that this is 'my John's ' older sister.
If I could find Elizabeth's birth at Mugreed farm it would be proof I think.
But the Mayfield/Heathfield records are very sketchy.
Did people not register births, or have the transcriptions not been very accurate?
Thanks for your interest.
Annette
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Hi Kerry,
Just another thought.
Is there any point in history when there was known migration from Scilly?
War/famine etc?
I am in touch with the family history group there.
Will ask them too.
Annette
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Hi Annette
I like the idea of their being wreckers in the family, that's interesting. My Hannah Oliver married a supposed highwayman and although no proved he was certainly transported to Australia in 1807 for larceny.
I tried to find Elizabeth 1842 baptism but unfortunately the Heathfield records end at 1789 on the online database but of course her baptism may be in the records at Lewes. I did try the non conformist records too but she didn't appear there.
For families who lived between Heathfield and Warbleton there is the Heathfield Independent Chapel which should always be checked for baptisms. For instance I could not find Hannah's last child Elizabeth born 1822 baptism anywhere, then I found it at the Chapel. After having 2 children out of marriage, 1 of which was not baptised. Also her husband had been transported some 15 years earlier, I think she was too ashamed to take Elizabeth to Warbleton church. That's my theory anyway.
Hannah lived a rather unfortunate life. She ended up living as a 'housekeeper' for some 40 odd years with a chap (who I believe is probably Elizabeth's father) and we believe that she couldn't remarry believing her husband still alive on the other side of the world. Unfortunately and probably unknown to her he died in 1821 so she could have remarried!
It is not uncommon for children not to be registered, I have a small number, I think some law was passed in the 1870s to make it compulsory but until then it was more 'voluntary'
Kerry
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Hi Kerry,
Do you have a complete line of Olivers going back from your verifiable relations to this 'Gervais' in the 1500s?
I would love to have a copy, if and when I have made a connection with them.
Do you mind me tapping in to your hard work?!
I suppose there MAY be records in the Scilly Isles for the 1500s, and we could see if they tie up with your 'Gervais'
Best wishes,
Annette
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Hi Annette
I have a line going back to the early Olyvers in the 1500s in Sedlescombe but can't go any further back than when the parish register starts.
However I found online some manorial records, shall have to dig out my notes on Friday (day off and left you know) and found some possibilities for the father of the earliest chap I found.
Trouble is I keep downloading information and never get chance to update my tree, investigate it further etc, especially as it was the same time as the London records appeared on Ancestry and I got drawn into my London families ;D ::)
Kerry
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I know this is an old stream, but does anything anywhere say Mayfield SUSSEX ??????
Several censuses for John Oliver appear to say Kent.
There is/was a Mayfield Manor and Mayfield Place in Orpington Kent.