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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hampshire & IOW Lookup Requests => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => England => Hampshire & IOW Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: muttly on Tuesday 08 September 09 23:35 BST (UK)
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Does anyone have any advice on how to find out what offense got my Great grandfather discharged from the army?
His name was Daniel Frith, He was stationed in Aldershot with the Royal Field Artillery.
On his discharge papers it states the discharge was due to his being "convicted by civil powers". I have the date 5th June 1901 but I'm not sure if that was the date of the conviction or the offense.
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Perhaps it would be worthwhile looking at the local newpapers for the Aldershot area? While the offence could have been committed anywhere I think it most likely that it was committed in that region. I think it likely that he was discharged for two possible reasons: 1) Something likely to have brought the Army into disrepute, or 2) He was unable to carry out his duties due to imprisonment. Have you tried for the service record?
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Thank you for your reply. His discharge papers state the convicted bit. Would he have had other service records?
The newspaper sounds like a good idea. So my next question is. Does anyone know what the local paper would be and whether there is online access to the archives.
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Probably won't be online access; there rarely is.
We don't know the date of his discharge to identify what was being published at that time.
Pauline
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Hi Muttley,
This link is to the Aldershot News, which does seem to have archive material, but only a little on line if you "Google"
http://www.mediauk.com/newspapers/41428/aldershot-news
Spring
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There is the newspaper archive at Colindale, not been but told they have a lot of material.Have youtried Googling his name and the date?
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I have a similar situation but the details were all included in the 26 page service record downloaded from Ancestry. My fellow's record included a printed form from the sessional court in Dartford Kent which listed his offence (unlawfully drunk on a highway while in charge of two horses and a van) and his punishment (14 days imprisonment and a fine). It was also noted on the Regimental Conduct sheet. But this was not serious enough to have him discharged and in fact he was convicted of drunkenness again a year later but still returned to duty. He finally scarpered in 1907 and was noted as a deserter.
If you don't have his full service record, it might be worth checking Ancestry or ordering it from the TNA.
Lynwen
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Thank you all for your replies.
I think the information that I have was "gleaned" from his enlistment papers.
Wow, Since Lynwen's ancestor wasn't discharged now I'm even more intrigued as to what mine did! unfortunately I don't have Ancestry at the moment Do you think it would be acceptable to post a look up request?
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Go for it!! Nothing ventured etc.etc.
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Well, I did try the armed forces but since then I managed to get onto ancestry, but I could only get military information from 1914. As I could only use the 30 minutes alloted I wasn't able to get very far.
Lynwen, or some other kind soul, Could you please explain how I can get to his service record from Ancestry. Thank you.
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I just signed up for a two week trial on Ancestry and I had a quick look but didn't see anything under the Military records for Daniel Frith. Did he have a second name or is the name commonly mistranscribed? I generally don't trust Ancestry's transcriptions so if you have any more details, I can search again. I am not sure how the records are organized because my fellow came up under the Pension records 1914 - 1920 even though he deserted in 1907.
I don't know very much about ordering military records from the National Archives but I believe you have to search yourself or hire a researcher as the files are not indexed by name. But the experts on the military board here will certainly give you better advice I'm sure.
Lynwen
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Hi there Muttly,
All the records that survived the Blitz are held by Ancestry, I have had a look and can't find him on the 3 sections that they have.
I have posted the address of the RA records office on your other thread.
Cheers Roger.
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Thanks Roger, I shall contact them to see if I can get any further. I really appreciate you and Lynwen taking time to help me. muttly.
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:D
Hi there,
Some more info for you from the 1901 census,
Dan Frith, Driver, aged 22, from Lutterworth, Leicestershire, in the 26th Battery RFA, in the Stanhope and Wellington lines, Aldershot.
Cheers Roger.
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Just a thought, might be worth trying Lutterworth papers, could have done something when home on leave!
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:(
Hi there again, I have just found out the records office has moved to Army Peronnel Centre(APC) Glasgow from 1997, and there you will have to prove kinship.
Cheers Roger.
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I have the date 5th June 1901 but I'm not sure if that was the date of the conviction or the offense.
This was the date he was discharged from the army, so the offence and sentence happened before this date. If you look at the page with details of his service there is a column with years and days. It may show when he was confined awaiting trial. The army would not pay him if he was not available.
Ken
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:D
Some more info for you from the 1901 census,
Dan Frith, Driver, aged 22, from Lutterworth, Leicestershire, in the 26th Battery RFA, in the Stanhope and Wellington lines, Aldershot.
This is weird! There are TWO Daniel FRITHs recorded in 1901 - one aged 22 and the other 27 - both Drivers with Royal Fd Arty at Aldershot! Both are shown married: the younger in Barracks and born 'Lutworth' and the elder born Birmingham with a wife Alice boarding in Aldershot!
The 1911 Index only has the elder - Daniel Thomas FRITH - aged 37 born Lutterworth living in Camberwell District with a wife Mary Alice!
FreeBMD has a marriage 1Q 1901 between Daniel Thomas FRITH and Mary Alice ISHERWOOD Farnham 2a 162.
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In view of this discovery, I wonder whether he was convicted of a capital offence and executed? Or hopefully, he just left the country after a scandal.
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Nothing as drastic as that.
Just a case of being recorded twice in the census. His family was living in Birmingham, so I think his wife may have thought he was born there. He was born in Lutterworth in1882. His mother Georgina was the next of kin when he joined the army. and we know his wife was Mary Alice.
I am now waiting for the postman to bring me a copy of his army records. hopefully there may be something helpful in that. Still trying to find newspaper articles.
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Pleased about that Muttly, as I found out to my horror a few years ago.Hopefully the army records will have sufficient information. As he was in barracks on census night I wonder if he was on remand waiting to be passed forward to the Civilian authorities, might get a clue from the original census document.
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So he was a mere lad of 18 at marriage and when he was discharged. It says a lot for his wife that she stuck by him and they were still together in 1911. A lot of marriages fail for a lot less these days!
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I don't know if she was aware of his correct age. When they married 3 weeks earlier he said he was 27! She was 24, but it seems like a huge age difference to invent.
They stayed together,and had 4 children.
She was actually from Yorkshire so maybe it was a case of it being too far to go home.
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:D
Well us Yorkies stick like glue.
Cheers Roger.
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Very true, from an adopted Tyke now in exile.
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What is your definition of Tyke?
My family always thought we were real "cockneys" until I discovered that all my maternal side comes from "North of Watford'! In fact most came from between Leeds and the lake district. So i';m not sure now what we are!
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1. an unpleasant or coarse man. 2. a mongrel. 3. a small child. 4. Brit. slang a Yorkshireman. [From Old Norse tik 'pregnant dog']. Source: Oxford Compact Dictionary.
I've only heard it down south in context of a small child!
Update:
That 'pregnant dog' has been automatically substituted online by the powers-that-be for the original b i t c h!
::) <shrieks with laughter!>
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:D
Hi there Muttly,
Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr not sure myself, but I am one. Now back to the question in hand have you tried Hampshire County Archives to see if they are holding any army records.
Cheers Roger, the yorkshire terrier.
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>:(
Now I've seen all the definitions of Tyke, I don't like them I'll stick with it bieng a Yorkshireman and stuff em.
Sitherere thats tellin em.
Cheers Roger.
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Tha's reet on Lad!! By the way, I was born in Cambridge, brought up in Boston from three months old, and lived in Doncaster 42 years. What does that make me?
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Which would you prefer? Cam-bo-d-on or mongrel? ;D
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Has to be mongrel, as I have discovered that my father's family come from the southwest, and some of my mother's family seem to have been Hugenots.Anything except aristocrats fortunately!
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;D
An incomer who as just passed the test, mindst the less said of Donny the better(I don't mean it), another 3 years and you'll get your County Cap.
Cheers Roger.
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8)
Just got back from t'other side o' hill.
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Sadly, there is plenty wrong with Donny at present, still reaping the fruits of Donnygate corruption scandal 10+ years ago, and the destruction of the coal industry almost 20 years ago. Many of the social problems, the child murders and the two who seriously injured the two small boys earlier this year result from this time. Now to compound matters they have elected as Mayor an extremist who doesn't understand the meaning of observing the law.
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What's your 'take' on Intake? I have warm memories of a lad from there in the late-60s. :-[
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:-\
Your lucky at least you know who you elected, not like round here we haven't a clue seen no mention of whom ever in the local paper and fancy calling the area after some old wreck of a hall(Kirklees) they would have been better off naming it after what it as come Greater Huddersfield.
Cheers Roger.
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Deejay, Last time I saw Intake the area was suffering like much of the Doncaster area
North of Watford G I live 200 miles away now, but use this thing (the web) to keep up to date, take your point about Kirklees, could have happened at Doncaster too, where 17 local authorities were merged into one, but in that respect they were lucky. Many of the names were coined by civil servants who hadn't a clue about the area concderned, and really cared less.
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???
Hi dee-jay,
I live 30 odd mile away from Donny northwards so I don't know it apart from seeing it on the destination blinds on the red busus that used to run in Donny.
Cheers Roger.
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I've been 'highjacked" by other members either talking."in tongue" or in code!!!!
If that's a northern thing, than I guess I'll stick to being a "mutt" [hence the name!] Seriously I haven't a clue about the politics in that part of the world. it must be the same the world over!
And getting back on topic........I always thought tyke was a small child. I think i'll keep that definition! and I have yet to hear back from anyone in Hampshire.
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:o
Hi muttley,
Thanks for pulling us back onto topic.
Cheers Roger.
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What is your definition of Tyke?
Just a reminder of who it was that knocked us off course! ;D
I had responded from Hampshire but I don't think it very likely your answers will come from here. Aldershot is close to Surrey and the Registration District I gave for their marriage was Farnham.
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I've been 'highjacked" by other members either talking."in tongue" or in code!!!!
Quite ::)
On topic please - or is this now complete?
Nell
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I love the "comerardery" [read that phonetically!] on this forum!
Yes, I have a few avenues now to explore. so Yes this is probably complete.
Thank you ALL. Muttly
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Perhaps you should amend the heading then Muttly by adding completed after what?
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completed